Of those 4, I can only really see Shaw in Jose's best 11 at the end of the season (although Rashford should be too.)
Do British players matter?
- Thread starter glazed
- Start date
Nah, Rashford and Shaw are the only English players I'm happy to see in the lineup. Lingard is a good squad player aswell.
Personally, and this might be an unpopular opinion but I wish we cashed in on Smalling this summer. It's unlikely he'll have another season like last season and if our partnership is gonna be Blind/Bailly going forward, why have Smalling on the bench? I've never rated him personally. And Carrick shouldn't have been offered a new deal.
As for Rooney... I'm bored of complaining about it. If he's getting the numbers, fair enough. But I still think he should have been shipped off by Moyes.
Personally, and this might be an unpopular opinion but I wish we cashed in on Smalling this summer. It's unlikely he'll have another season like last season and if our partnership is gonna be Blind/Bailly going forward, why have Smalling on the bench? I've never rated him personally. And Carrick shouldn't have been offered a new deal.
As for Rooney... I'm bored of complaining about it. If he's getting the numbers, fair enough. But I still think he should have been shipped off by Moyes.
Isn't this simply a market thing? If you need a world class striker, the chance that he will be British is often marginal.
How many Brits are in your fantasy team?
How many Brits are in your fantasy team?
It would be a market thing if other league was as foreign as the PL, but that's not the case.
First, I'm hella suprised Belgium is #2 and second, I was talking specifically about the British league. I think you can't compare leagues when you talk about world class players, because said players would never go to leagues in Switzerland or Ukraine.
Young English talent are quite shit and expensive.
Does having German players matter for Bayern? Does having Italian players matter for Juve?
People are massively underrating Smalling these days. Within this summer he went from the most overrated player in this forum, to the most underrated one.
Aye, he's a very good defender who just can't get ahead of Bailly and Blind who have been immense, doesn't make him suddenly rubbish.
Still, the PL have about 9% more foreigners than Serie A, 16% more than the Bundesliga and 25%(!) more than La Liga, who most people would agree is the best league in the world.
Yes, I don't think you'll ever see a Bayern or Juventus team with a full lineup of foreigners. That could easily be the case with us soon.
Of course they matter but, on the other hand, it's quite unfair to judge the state of our first team by the same standards we judged Ferguson's time at the club. And there's also another thing, in modern football usually time waits for no one and this is a rule which applies to clubs as organizations and subsequently to football players as well.
Another thing is that the distribution of the money the PL produces certainly doesn't favor the creation of a dipole where all the good native players have as a primary destination, like it happens in La Liga. Moreover, the status quo of English football couldn't be further away from what happens in Germany, Italy or France where certain particularities have led to one club monopolizing the titles and therefore attracting all the top class native players. In England that's almost impossible to happen but the most important thing is that the second tier clubs (fighting for CL or EL qualification), the midtable clubs or even teams lower on the table can afford to keep their good players until the right offer comes. For example, it's nice to think about United having an attacking duet that consists of Alli/Rashford or Rashford/Kane in the near future but Levy will ask an unbelievable fee for either of them and he will always look for continental buyers first. But even if we're willing to break the bank, other English clubs will be able to match our offer.
Ferguson's first United sides were full of British players simply because there wasn't a different option. After the Bosman ruling (1996) we were lucky enough to experience the rise of the class of '92 to prominence. This meant that Ferguson always had a core of British players who could secure a title challenge and he could go on and add foreign or native players where he thought we needed reinforcements. The problem was that his last United side had surpassed its expiry date when Moyes was appointed.
Now we find ourselves in a difficult situation where we have to create a strong nucleus which will allow us to stay on top and compete for the major honors for the years to come, so we can only look for one or two major improvements when the right opportunity emerges. But we can't monopolize the market and we're not the only destination for good British players. Plus there aren't many top class British players out there. We will occasionally spend a few extra millions, like we did when we signed Shaw, but you can't expect us to continuously pay the extra 20 million City, for instance, paid for Sterling and Stones. But if our signings prove to be successful and we finally have a strong backbone we can look for any good British replacements in the squad. Rashford might be ready to lead the offense when Zlatan retires, Alli may come to replace Rooney while we will also be looking for a new DM and a RB sooner than later. But it will always be better to assess our options, if we already have a solid backbone first.
I understand where all these concerns are coming from. It's always important to have players who get the club, who understand the country's culture and who will consider wearing the red shirt an honor and an achievement in their careers besides earning the big salary that comes with it. These are the players the local fans will be able to familiarize themselves with. But the truth is we can't do an Ajax and sit and wait for the next great crop of youngsters to emerge. If we do so, the status quo of the PL guarantees that will fade into obscurity.
We have to work with what we have in our hands and any criticism will be more valid, if there are other British clubs that compete at the highest level with British lads in their squad. The OP mentioned Arsenal as an example that we should avoid. While i agree to a point, i also looked at the 2006 CL final to check how many British players Wenger started that day and how many Spaniards were in the Barcelona first xi... Two English players for Arsenal (Campbell and Cole) and three for the Catalans (Valdes, Oleguer and Puyol). You see, even for clubs like Barcelona, staying at the top is more important than just playing local players.
Another thing is that the distribution of the money the PL produces certainly doesn't favor the creation of a dipole where all the good native players have as a primary destination, like it happens in La Liga. Moreover, the status quo of English football couldn't be further away from what happens in Germany, Italy or France where certain particularities have led to one club monopolizing the titles and therefore attracting all the top class native players. In England that's almost impossible to happen but the most important thing is that the second tier clubs (fighting for CL or EL qualification), the midtable clubs or even teams lower on the table can afford to keep their good players until the right offer comes. For example, it's nice to think about United having an attacking duet that consists of Alli/Rashford or Rashford/Kane in the near future but Levy will ask an unbelievable fee for either of them and he will always look for continental buyers first. But even if we're willing to break the bank, other English clubs will be able to match our offer.
Ferguson's first United sides were full of British players simply because there wasn't a different option. After the Bosman ruling (1996) we were lucky enough to experience the rise of the class of '92 to prominence. This meant that Ferguson always had a core of British players who could secure a title challenge and he could go on and add foreign or native players where he thought we needed reinforcements. The problem was that his last United side had surpassed its expiry date when Moyes was appointed.
Now we find ourselves in a difficult situation where we have to create a strong nucleus which will allow us to stay on top and compete for the major honors for the years to come, so we can only look for one or two major improvements when the right opportunity emerges. But we can't monopolize the market and we're not the only destination for good British players. Plus there aren't many top class British players out there. We will occasionally spend a few extra millions, like we did when we signed Shaw, but you can't expect us to continuously pay the extra 20 million City, for instance, paid for Sterling and Stones. But if our signings prove to be successful and we finally have a strong backbone we can look for any good British replacements in the squad. Rashford might be ready to lead the offense when Zlatan retires, Alli may come to replace Rooney while we will also be looking for a new DM and a RB sooner than later. But it will always be better to assess our options, if we already have a solid backbone first.
I understand where all these concerns are coming from. It's always important to have players who get the club, who understand the country's culture and who will consider wearing the red shirt an honor and an achievement in their careers besides earning the big salary that comes with it. These are the players the local fans will be able to familiarize themselves with. But the truth is we can't do an Ajax and sit and wait for the next great crop of youngsters to emerge. If we do so, the status quo of the PL guarantees that will fade into obscurity.
We have to work with what we have in our hands and any criticism will be more valid, if there are other British clubs that compete at the highest level with British lads in their squad. The OP mentioned Arsenal as an example that we should avoid. While i agree to a point, i also looked at the 2006 CL final to check how many British players Wenger started that day and how many Spaniards were in the Barcelona first xi... Two English players for Arsenal (Campbell and Cole) and three for the Catalans (Valdes, Oleguer and Puyol). You see, even for clubs like Barcelona, staying at the top is more important than just playing local players.
Many of our biggest legends aren't British. Cantona is my Dad's favourite ever player and I know he is for loads of other reds too. Doesn't matter in the slightest that he isn't English/British. Even with youth team products, it's always nice to bring players through but does it really matter whether he's from Moss Side or Mogadishu? I feel this is more true than ever with United now having such a global presence and fanbase.
I'm not a fan of playing british players for the heck of it like we seemed to be doing with Welbeck,Clev etc.But I feel as an English club there should definitely be Brits in the team, good ones. The only way we can go about this is if we get them while their young before they cost an arm and a leg with cheaper brazillian/spanish versions there for the taking
There's many factors why German, Spanish players, etc, are given more of a chance. As I said before, there's a sickening amount of money being thrown around. I personally don't think English teams are as patient with their academy products, as opposed to other leagues.
For example, Spurs went out and bought Soldado and Adebayor when they had Kane in the ranks. Thankfully, the both flopped and Kane took his chance.
I also think the English Premier League is a lot harder to make it through the ranks than it is the foreign leagues. Look at the league this year in England. On paper, there's probably, four or five teams that can win the league. Around the other leagues, apart from one or two teams, it's nowhere near as competitive, hence why I feel managers in foreign leagues can afford to take a gamble on their youth players.
I don't think English players are any more overrated than the foreign ones. Actually, in my opinion, foreign players are overrated more. There's been countless foreign players that have been talked up and have not lived up to their hype. You mention Welbeck, but there was a lot more hype around Macheda, who has just been released from Cardiff, when they were both coming through the ranks.
Cleverley and Jones, before he was injury prone, played massive parts in us winning the league under Sir Alex. Anderson, on the other hand, had been here for 8 and did feck all. He cost us 30M, right?
Wilshere, in my opinion, is not overrated. Had he not been injury prone, I personally feel he'd be amongst the best midfielders in the world.
Hart makes a couple of mistakes and he's overrated, yet he's been saving Citeh's arse for a long time now. Again, in my opinion, top 5 keeper in the world.
As a fan it is obviously great to see players who are local on the pitch. Rightly or wrongly we feel a little more connected to them as they should represent the fans on the pitch. Obviously sometimes this can backfire as passion for the club can spill over and lead to them getting needlessly sent off for a reckless tackle against our local rivals which leads in part to being relegated (Alex Gilbey, I am looking at you).
In general I don’t care where the player is from as long as they have a passion for the club and play with commitment. For example Cantona and Evra would play for you lads with just as much desire as any local.
In general I don’t care where the player is from as long as they have a passion for the club and play with commitment. For example Cantona and Evra would play for you lads with just as much desire as any local.
I certainly would prefer an English player ahead of an equally talented non-English player.
Don't care either way about players from the other home nations.
Having said that, I'd rather have someone like Tomori* make it at Chelsea (a Canadian who has been at Chelsea since he was 7) than us sign John Stones who has zero connection with the club.
*Tomori is actually eligible to play for England so not the best example but you get my point!
So my preference is as follows:
1, Long term connection with the club (genuine youth product, not signed at 16/17) of any nationality.
2, English
3, Not English
I'm not a particularly patriotic person but do think English clubs should have some English players. I'm not saying 9 out of 11 players should be English but I don't think 3 out of 11 is unreasonable.
Don't care either way about players from the other home nations.
Having said that, I'd rather have someone like Tomori* make it at Chelsea (a Canadian who has been at Chelsea since he was 7) than us sign John Stones who has zero connection with the club.
*Tomori is actually eligible to play for England so not the best example but you get my point!
So my preference is as follows:
1, Long term connection with the club (genuine youth product, not signed at 16/17) of any nationality.
2, English
3, Not English
I'm not a particularly patriotic person but do think English clubs should have some English players. I'm not saying 9 out of 11 players should be English but I don't think 3 out of 11 is unreasonable.
So far this season we have started with 2 British(English) players on the pitch Shaw and Rooney. We're hardly where we were back in SAF's heyday where most of the team were from Britain and Ireland.
Most of the posters on here would have Rooney dropped for Mkhitaryan. That would leave us with 1 English player in the starting line up and none from the rest of the British Isles.
I think that all the other top clubs had at least 2 British players playing as well.
I wasn't but I'm Belgian so... I was however surprised the Netherlands are still doing so well
.Are they? Pogba wouldve cost us 0 and a good wage. Rashford 0. So on
Didn't realise Pogba was British.
Given the financial strength of the Premier League I expected the difference to be a bit more really.It would be a market thing if other league was as foreign as the PL, but that's not the case.
I assume foreign players includes the Scots, the Welsh and the Irelands?
No offence intended Eire, but it's pretty traditional for your lads to play in England, I think of them as only technically foreign.
Totally british man. English name. Homegrown. Pogba is actually an acronym like POSH. Port out get back, asshole. Many people dont know this.
I am not British but still want us to have a British core which we have had anyway. About half British/English and half foreign is ideal.
I would definitely take a British player ahead of an equally talented foreign one, unless the foreign one is a youth product.
However I don't want us to take an average British player ahead of a better foreign one.
I would definitely take a British player ahead of an equally talented foreign one, unless the foreign one is a youth product.
However I don't want us to take an average British player ahead of a better foreign one.
Of course there are many exceptions but generally the top three advantages of British players I can think of are: -
Personally I always want to see a strong British core at United, manager included too.
- No language barrier – improves tactics and team play
- Familiar with the culture and climate – happier players perform to their best
- Less likely to leave for Madrid/Barca – provides stability
Personally I always want to see a strong British core at United, manager included too.
I think it's nice to have homegrown/British players, but being United the need for success means it is a bonus rather than a neccessity. Yes a core of British players like we had with Scholes et al gave us a sense of identity and stability because British players rarely moved abroad back then and I suppose even now it's not common.
If we can go British, or preferably even English, without compromising on quality - then it's preferable for me.
Although, I think academy is probably a bit more preferable still, as in Januzaj over Barkley. But I look at teams like Bayern with the best of German talent, or Barca with the best of Spanish etc and it was similar to our most golden years under Fergie. I'm not sure it can be replicated again though, we can't dominate the league financially like old.
Anyway, Eric Dier 2017 please.
Although, I think academy is probably a bit more preferable still, as in Januzaj over Barkley. But I look at teams like Bayern with the best of German talent, or Barca with the best of Spanish etc and it was similar to our most golden years under Fergie. I'm not sure it can be replicated again though, we can't dominate the league financially like old.
Anyway, Eric Dier 2017 please.
For me, fielding British players is important. It is an identity thing and football clubs should somewhat represent the countries that they reside in. Ideally, any club should be able to field 5-6 quality players who are born and raised in their country.
If that is not possible then of course you have got to get the best you can, even if they come from half the world away. It is still difficult to find top class talent on our isles which leads to a dearth in homegrown players in our starting 11.
If that is not possible then of course you have got to get the best you can, even if they come from half the world away. It is still difficult to find top class talent on our isles which leads to a dearth in homegrown players in our starting 11.
United players matter nothing else
Not many young English players worth signing. It's going to be a long while until we see someone like a young Wayne Rooney arrive at the scene.
We've got a few special ones like Rashford and Shaw, Smalling is solid, we'll see what the likes of CBJ, Gomes and the youngsters have to offer soon. I hope we're monitoring Barkley as a Rooney replacement option, he's had a good start so far and with the right coaching can be taken to the next level. Dier also looks like a decent shout.
We've got a few special ones like Rashford and Shaw, Smalling is solid, we'll see what the likes of CBJ, Gomes and the youngsters have to offer soon. I hope we're monitoring Barkley as a Rooney replacement option, he's had a good start so far and with the right coaching can be taken to the next level. Dier also looks like a decent shout.
Barkley is nowhere good enough to start for a top team (and won't ever be). Dier is an interesting prospect, though I think that there are better alternatives, and getting him from Spurs would be near impossible.
I would hate to see a Manchester United side without english players and we should always look to sign the best english players.
I share the sentiment.
Juve has, what, 3 Italians in their first team? Buffon, Chielini and Bonucci. Maybe I'm missing someone else but it's not a lot.
Bayern have the advantage of picking the best German players in the league... and the fact Germany currently has way better players than England. So too Spain.
It's great having world class English players playing for United. If there are actually any to buy.
Juventus also have Marchisio and Barzagli who usually start for them. That's not the point though. I don't think anybody is arguing that we should field British players for the sake of it. The point is that it's weird not to care about it. Barcelona were winning under LvG and were still unhappy that he filled the team with Dutch players. Bayern dominated their league and played some of the best football in their history and there was still discontent among their fans about the team's identity with the amount of foreigners Pep was bringing in. It's one thing to feel that at this moment, we need to be pragmatic but it's another to claim that you don't give a toss about your team's identity. It's not what sets us apart per se, it's what sets pretty much any club apart and one of the most important things that promote the feeling of connection between fans and club.
[Not actually replying to your post so much as using the table].
The worst thing about this data is the information it doesn't show. Put a table together of Spanish, Italian, French, German, Portuguese players playing in foreign leagues. then add English players to that table.
THAT is the most worrying statistic. If English players are not playing here, they're not playing anywhere. That's why we've got a sh1te national team.
As a rough and ready rule of thumb, the best Italians play for the best Italian clubs, with the same being true of Spanish and German players. If they're not playing for the best teams in their own country, they're playing in other countries.
But English players? It's Premier league or bust.
We currently have 4 top teams in our league that can compete for and buy top class talent. United, City, Chelsea and Arsenal. Taking into account the ability of these 4 to be able to buy the best players in every position, you've probably got space for 8 English players across 4 teams.
In not quite equal measure; Fabregas, Pedro, Mata, Herrera, Navas, Silva, Cazorla, Bellerin, are all players that couldn't get a starting spot at Barca, Real or Athletico but walk straight into our top clubs.
We concentrate so much on having English players in England we completely forget about the fact that English players elsewhere would help us a whole lot more. We shouldn't be looking to get more English players playing in England. We should concentrate on getting a bigger pool of players through any means necessary.
Admittedly English players going to Spain en masse would be a stretch. I don't offer an absolute solution, but the likes of Wellbeck, Cahill, Baines, Milner, Jagielka, Young, Walcott, Shawcross, Delph, Townsend, Osman, Sturridge, could all have as good a career overseas as they could here. Not our top class talents that will be in demand for our top clubs. But those second tier players that could play for second tier foreign sides for a period of their careers. I'd really like to see English players be a bit braver and look at a career as something to be experienced as a whole. Not just think about an extra few quid and the safety of having family nearby for their twenties and early thirties.
Covered at least 2 too many points there but there we go.
TLDR - We're the only nation that doesn't export players.
Ideally, I'd like to see as many Welsh/British players as realistically possible in the squad. This window I'd have liked us to have gone for Huws and Chester, perhaps even Bradshaw as a relatively cheap gamble.
Leon Britton is English and my favourite. Siggy is clearly a class above anyone else in our team so I don't really care when it comes to favourites.
Leon Britton is English and my favourite. Siggy is clearly a class above anyone else in our team so I don't really care when it comes to favourites.
Only English teams would pay English medicore crap good money.
Come to serie a / spain / german they'd be paid peanuts. Darmian was on 25k/week at juve cmiiw, he got like triple that at united.
No wonder english players likes to stay in england, pays better, less cost of moving, less need to adapt, and they got the media behind them, not to mention they're playing host to jonny foreigner they can bully.
A player like wilshere, hart, etc coming to spain and they'll drop into mediocrity and johny nobody pretty quick. Even owen didn't make it at madrid, only Beckham in recent decades that resembles some success.
Come to serie a / spain / german they'd be paid peanuts. Darmian was on 25k/week at juve cmiiw, he got like triple that at united.
No wonder english players likes to stay in england, pays better, less cost of moving, less need to adapt, and they got the media behind them, not to mention they're playing host to jonny foreigner they can bully.
A player like wilshere, hart, etc coming to spain and they'll drop into mediocrity and johny nobody pretty quick. Even owen didn't make it at madrid, only Beckham in recent decades that resembles some success.
Then you have people like Ravel Morrison who are full of talent but just come with the wrong mentality and screw up their lives. Such a waste.
Having a British/English core matters to me, even if we have to spend to get them in, like we did with Keane, Rio and Rooney before.
It's also important to me that we spot talent and develop our youth players to the point that we produce top class British players, while creating an environment that makes it so they can break though the first team.
@Walters_19_MuFc mentioned that Rashford wouldn't have got a look in had Martial not injured himself, which is a very good point. Van Gaal, for all his faults, set the squad up so he was able to do that. No point filling up squad roles and gaps with random and pointless foreign players, in my opinion.
It's also important to me that we spot talent and develop our youth players to the point that we produce top class British players, while creating an environment that makes it so they can break though the first team.
@Walters_19_MuFc mentioned that Rashford wouldn't have got a look in had Martial not injured himself, which is a very good point. Van Gaal, for all his faults, set the squad up so he was able to do that. No point filling up squad roles and gaps with random and pointless foreign players, in my opinion.
Blame TV money and the English football mentality/the FA.
TV money has allowed clubs to flood their squads with average foreign talent. Every league has the foreign players at the top, but their squads are made up of local players because they can't afford to splash 20m on benchwarmers. In England it's easier to do that than develop your own. The mentality here for a long time has been strong, hard working players over technical ability, possibly because for years the pitch quality didn't facilitate it.
Maybe in a decade we will have caught up but for now, we're stuck. We're stuck with a nation of James Milners because in his formative years in the 90s Xavi's intricate pass would have hit a divot and gone straight to the opposition.
TV money has allowed clubs to flood their squads with average foreign talent. Every league has the foreign players at the top, but their squads are made up of local players because they can't afford to splash 20m on benchwarmers. In England it's easier to do that than develop your own. The mentality here for a long time has been strong, hard working players over technical ability, possibly because for years the pitch quality didn't facilitate it.
Maybe in a decade we will have caught up but for now, we're stuck. We're stuck with a nation of James Milners because in his formative years in the 90s Xavi's intricate pass would have hit a divot and gone straight to the opposition.