Do our players need to man up?

noodlehair

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I've never liked this assertion that we have a squad full of "winners", because for me, we haven't had for a long while now. We've had a manager who can make his players look like a team of winners through his own success and demand for that to continue.

For me, we have no more than a few players who've shown they're made of the right stuff mentally when it matters. Rooney, Rafael, Jones and maybe Janujaz...and the later two have only shown it this season. The rest are largely a bunch of complete fannies, to be honest. They either play like they have nothing to prove to anyone, or they panic and don't possess the ability to play with any semblence of thought or intelligence.

For example, so far this season, we've had on pitch sulking/moping around from Nani and Van Persie, hiding and shirking of responsibility from the likes of Fellaini, Welbeck and Young, constant panicking from Cleverley and Smalling, and worst of all, payers like Rio, who are supposed to be an example, putting in ridiculously casual displays, costing their team the game, and then trying to get away with doing the exact same again the very next week.

Silly errors and lazy use of the ball being repeated week after week from Rio, Vidic, Carrick, etc. One or two who can't even be bothered with the bare basics like getting themselves in shape. You look at when the likes of Keane were around (and I know that's almost a cliche now), and it would never have been accepted as a standard, regardless of who the manager was. It'd be what you do when you want to retire, get shouted at a lot by your team mates, or if you wanted to go and play for Sunderland.

The thing with Fergie is, he could pick a ridiculously retarded line up, and half the time they'd still drag out a win despite playing like a bunch of spazzers...No other manager could get away with doing that, but Fergie had something no other manager can have. He had the desire and demand from himself, but also backed up by the assurance of being so succesful for so long. He couldn't get away with it himself back in 2001 or 2004, because the question marks would still be there when he did something silly.

I've lost patience with the sorry lot now. I thought they were getting their act together, but then you look at tonight, and Cardiff just over a week ago, and the evidence suggests very much otherwise. Ultimately it's the manager's job to sort them out, but whoever the manager is, the players will have to stand up and be counted themselves rather than try to hide behind the strength of someone else. Either that or a lot of them are going to end up being mid table chancers, one way or another.
 

Cina

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I think Fergie left Moyes an extremely flawed squad that is showing its true colours and making our new managers job extremely difficult.
 

Cina

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I made the exact same point in the "Do You Want Moyes To Go?" thread.
Yeah, I copied it, and I'd do it again if it wasn't for those pesky alerts!

(didn't actually copy it)
 

QuackQuack

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I've never liked this assertion that we have a squad full of "winners", because for me, we haven't had for a long while now. We've had a manager who can make his players look like a team of winners through his own success and demand for that to continue.

For me, we have no more than a few players who've shown they're made of the right stuff mentally when it matters. Rooney, Rafael, Jones and maybe Janujaz...and the later two have only shown it this season. The rest are largely a bunch of complete fannies, to be honest. They either play like they have nothing to prove to anyone, or they panic and don't possess the ability to play with any semblence of thought or intelligence.

For example, so far this season, we've had on pitch sulking/moping around from Nani and Van Persie, hiding and shirking of responsibility from the likes of Fellaini, Welbeck and Young, constant panicking from Cleverley and Smalling, and worst of all, payers like Rio, who are supposed to be an example, putting in ridiculously casual displays, costing their team the game, and then trying to get away with doing the exact same again the very next week.

Silly errors and lazy use of the ball being repeated week after week from Rio, Vidic, Carrick, etc. One or two who can't even be bothered with the bare basics like getting themselves in shape. You look at when the likes of Keane were around (and I know that's almost a cliche now), and it would never have been accepted as a standard, regardless of who the manager was. It'd be what you do when you want to retire, get shouted at a lot by your team mates, or if you wanted to go and play for Sunderland.

The thing with Fergie is, he could pick a ridiculously retarded line up, and half the time they'd still drag out a win despite playing like a bunch of spazzers...No other manager could get away with doing that, but Fergie had something no other manager can have. He had the desire and demand from himself, but also backed up by the assurance of being so succesful for so long. He couldn't get away with it himself back in 2001 or 2004, because the question marks would still be there when he did something silly.

I've lost patience with the sorry lot now. I thought they were getting their act together, but then you look at tonight, and Cardiff just over a week ago, and the evidence suggests very much otherwise. Ultimately it's the manager's job to sort them out, but whoever the manager is, the players will have to stand up and be counted themselves rather than try to hide behind the strength of someone else. Either that or a lot of them are going to end up being mid table chancers, one way or another.
Good post. It seems like we have lost that urgency and fight that we used to have. We used to score plenty of late goals and I remember seeing a few minutes left on the clock but yet was so positive we would get another. Now, it seems like we have lost it.
 

Red Pavan

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I think Fergie left Moyes an extremely flawed squad that is showing its true colours and making our new managers job extremely difficult.

Can't disagree with that, but it's not as bad as being flawed though. Still shocked about how we managed to win the league with such a gap - only Fergie could do that.
 

KiD MoYeS

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Our squad is in such a way that we have to consistently play average players who just aren't up to it.

More than anything, it is a testament to Ferguson that he could squeeze acceptable performances from some of them players.

Do our players need to man up? No, they need to be sold because they're not good enough.
 

Fergus' son

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I'd add DDG and Vidic to the list of winners, the rest have as much of a 'winning mentality' as Gareth Barry or Samir Nasri.
 

SER19

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Schmeichel,
Parker,
Pallister
Bruce
Irwin
Kanchelskis
Keane
Ince
Giggs
Cantona
Hughes

I think its fair to say our current team is comparatively, as you say "a bunch of fannies", for want of a better phrase. They certainly are representing themselves as a bunch you could say youre proud to support. like, would you take your son to watch some of them to learn lessons in how to be a man on the pitch, probably not. the club-yes 100%, man utd will never die. the players need to realise that. Jesus, vidic got put on his arse about 4 times tonight. the list of average premier league players that you could say "bullied" us in the past 2 years in frankly pathetic.
 

Revan

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In a thread last year which was called something like 'how good is this United squad' I said that I think in overall we are almost as good as the team on 2006-2009 while the first team is weaker.

I still stand by it.
 

ArmchairCritic

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Aye too many pussies. Have to play Jones, Rafael and Januzaj at all times at the moment and Evra. RVP and Rooney have to channel their energy better, Rooney getting knocked off the ball a fair bit recently. I think it's pretty damning however that our best player this season has been the fella who wanted off in the summer.
 

Sam

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I think noodle is spot on. The attitude from a lot of players is pathetic.
 

bosnian_red

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Can't disagree with that, but it's not as bad as being flawed though. Still shocked about how we managed to win the league with such a gap - only Fergie could do that.
Yeah, I'd say on a normal level, our squad is top 4 level. Sir Alex made us the best in the league, but Moyes is making us look worse then we really are.

You don't need everyone in your squad to have that fighting, leader mentality, but we have way too many fannies in our squad, the likes who shy away from every 50/50 and too many average players who don't bring anything to the team.
 

Ash_G

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Good post. It seems like we have lost that urgency and fight that we used to have. We used to score plenty of late goals and I remember seeing a few minutes left on the clock but yet was so positive we would get another. Now, it seems like we have lost it.

I'd say the urgency has been lacking for a long time now. Definitely if we were to look back over the last two seasons it would be there, not urgency in the final few minutes but the general approach to games, our players just seem so laid back at times, like they expect things to just work our for them. I guess it's natural for some complacency to set in, I mean they've won 5 of the last 7 titles, missing the other two by a goal and a point. I guess that's why new blood is needed but in general RVP aside there hasn't been any real external key player changes over the last few years.

But I still think we just need one top player in the middle and another quality option there too. That would solve so many issues as they're mainly all stemming from the lack of drive in the middle.
 

SER19

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with this in mind i think we need to play 11 players now that we know will at least give it their all.
best i can think of is

de gea, rafael, evans, vidic, evra, jones, giggs, januzaj, rooney, van persie, hernandez. telling that you cant make a realistic formation from that. alas we're stuck with wingers who average an assist every 10 games between them.
 

ArmchairCritic

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In terms of heart I'm happy with:
De Gea
Rafael
Jones
Vidic
Evra
Januzaj
Rooney
RVP.

The rest need to get their shit together.
 

QuackQuack

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I'd say the urgency has been lacking for a long time now. Definitely if we were to look back over the last two seasons it would be there, not urgency in the final few minutes but the general approach to games, our players just seem so laid back at times, like they expect things to just work our for them. I guess it's natural for some complacency to set in, I mean they've won 5 of the last 7 titles, missing the other two by a goal and a point. I guess that's why new blood is needed but in general RVP aside there hasn't been any real external key player changes over the last few years.

But I still think we just need one top player in the middle and another quality option there too. That would solve so many issues as they're mainly all stemming from the lack of drive in the middle.
What I meant by that was whenever we were a goal down or trying to squeeze another goal, we were fighting to the last second. I don't think we have score a late goal under Moyes yet and I wonder why when we were practically famous for our late goals. As SAF said they were his best moments. The players need to take some responsibility.
 

Theon

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Aye agree with Noodle completely, lack of bottle from too many players
 

Ash_G

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In terms of heart I'm happy with:
De Gea
Rafael
Jones
Vidic
Evra
Januzaj
Rooney
RVP.

The rest need to get their shit together.

Fletcher as well when he's fit and I don't think Evans shy's away in fairness. Problem is the two main leaders there Evra and Vidic seem to be coming slightly more exposed, RVP and Rooney still haven't quite clicked either.
 

Sixpence

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I honestly want to see Jones start every game in midfield now, purely because at least we know he's not soft as shit like many of the others. The players have to take some of the responsibility and there will have been an easing off, some probably taking the piss which isn't fair on Moyes.
 

Kostur

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Pretty much made this point in some other thread made by SER19 I think. There's plenty of decent posts all around coevered in shite of 'get moyes out lol' I suppose.
 

Sixpence

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Schmeichel,
Parker,
Pallister
Bruce
Irwin
Kanchelskis
Keane
Ince
Giggs
Cantona
Hughes

I think its fair to say our current team is comparatively, as you say "a bunch of fannies", for want of a better phrase. They certainly are representing themselves as a bunch you could say youre proud to support. like, would you take your son to watch some of them to learn lessons in how to be a man on the pitch, probably not. the club-yes 100%, man utd will never die. the players need to realise that. Jesus, vidic got put on his arse about 4 times tonight. the list of average premier league players that you could say "bullied" us in the past 2 years in frankly pathetic.
Seeing that team really hits home. So many top class players but absolute leaders everywhere. Almost all of those players were captain material and could deal out a bollocking if it was needed. They were men in that side, tough bastards all over the pitch. We are soft as shit these days bar one or two.
 

Annihilate Now!

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Of course they do. They're a major reason why we're in this rut.

They're not the sole reason of course though... basically, everyone at the club needs to realise that this shit isn't flying and try and do something about it.
 

noodlehair

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I'd add DDG and Vidic to the list of winners, the rest have as much of a 'winning mentality' as Gareth Barry or Samir Nasri.
DDG has been fine but he's a keeper and he's young, so it's hard to say how much influence he has on the whole.

Vidic has been very lazy in his use of the ball this and last season. He plays it out for a throw when relatively easy passing options are available. He dallies around waiting for someone to take responsibility off him, when in the past he'd have brought the ball forward himself. It's nowhere near good enough for a captain. He might have been a winner at one point but he's got a fair bit to address in order to get back there.
 

noodlehair

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Schmeichel,
Parker,
Pallister
Bruce
Irwin
Kanchelskis
Keane
Ince
Giggs
Cantona
Hughes

I think its fair to say our current team is comparatively, as you say "a bunch of fannies", for want of a better phrase. They certainly are representing themselves as a bunch you could say youre proud to support. like, would you take your son to watch some of them to learn lessons in how to be a man on the pitch, probably not. the club-yes 100%, man utd will never die. the players need to realise that. Jesus, vidic got put on his arse about 4 times tonight. the list of average premier league players that you could say "bullied" us in the past 2 years in frankly pathetic.
Yeah, I mean that lot, probably talent wise aren't in the same league, but they wouldn't go into a game and find themselves lacking mentally.

It's not even about being a hard man. Rafael is hardly a Roy Keane, but he plays as if not being 10/10 would be a disaster. He's not afraid to push himself and make mistakes, and if he does make a mistake, he comes back next time and you can tell he's looked at himself and tried to learn from it. The only time you find fault with his mindset is when he tries too hard.
 

ArmchairCritic

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DDG has been fine but he's a keeper and he's young, so it's hard to say how much influence he has on the whole.

Vidic has been very lazy in his use of the ball this and last season. He plays it out for a throw when relatively easy passing options are available. He dallies around waiting for someone to take responsibility off him, when in the past he'd have brought the ball forward himself. It's nowhere near good enough for a captain. He might have been a winner at one point but he's got a fair bit to address in order to get back there.

But that tackle on Walker is probably the best thing any player has done for us this year.
 

noodlehair

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But that tackle on Walker is probably the best thing any player has done for us this year.
One tackle vs countless times he's played the ball out without looking for a pass, made someone sprint over and take the ball from him, not picked up his man as early as he should have etc.

One moment doesn't make up for a sub par performance, let alone a pattern of them. I mean he's not been terrible, but there's just no drive or desire to force the issue in him at all, where as in the past he would be almost maniacle with it. He seems content to just do what's on the job description.

Remember when he'd plant himself on the halfway line and not let the opposition breathe, and just foul anyone who managed to temporarily find a way out? Or when he'd be a noticable menace from literally every single corner we won? He doesn't do it anymore. He gets most of the defending right but just cruises through games thinking that's enough, even though it never really has been if you want to be the best.
 

Fergus' son

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DDG has been fine but he's a keeper and he's young, so it's hard to say how much influence he has on the whole.

Vidic has been very lazy in his use of the ball this and last season. He plays it out for a throw when relatively easy passing options are available. He dallies around waiting for someone to take responsibility off him, when in the past he'd have brought the ball forward himself. It's nowhere near good enough for a captain. He might have been a winner at one point but he's got a fair bit to address in order to get back there.

He's never been a great captain IMO, always just led by example rather than been a proper leader like Keane or even someone like Kompany, he's rarely given the rest of the team a kick up the arse when it was needed etc. The lack of midfield protection has really affected him as he got older but I still think he has the right attitude generally.

A few of our other players could easily be good players for mid table teams has SAF not been manager and a couple of things went differently, it's regarding these players where I agree with you when discussing 'winning mentality'. It's laughable to suggest players like Evra, Rio, Nani, Cleverley, Valencia, Welbeck, Hernandez or Carrick have anymore of that mentality in comparison to other players from other teams. Even RVP, though clearly deserving to play for a top team, hasn't really proven much in relation to that though I'm probably being harsh because of the mood tonight's game has left me in.
 

ArmchairCritic

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One tackle vs countless times he's played the ball out without looking for a pass, made someone sprint over and take the ball from him, not picked up his man as early as he should have etc.

One moment doesn't make up for a sub par performance, let alone a pattern of them. I mean he's not been terrible, but there's just no drive or desire to force the issue in him at all, where as in the past he would be almost maniacle with it. He seems content to just do what's on the job description.

Remember when he'd plant himself on the halfway line and not let the opposition breathe, and just foul anyone who managed to temporarily find a way out? Or when he'd be a noticable menace from literally every single corner we won? He doesn't do it anymore. He gets most of the defending right but just cruises through games thinking that's enough, even though it never really has been if you want to be the best.

He's lost that yard of pace and has to drop off a lot now.
 

bosnian_red

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Fletcher as well when he's fit and I don't think Evans shy's away in fairness. Problem is the two main leaders there Evra and Vidic seem to be coming slightly more exposed, RVP and Rooney still haven't quite clicked either.
:( I have my doubts that he'll ever get back to premier league level, if he does ever get back to full fitness. We could do with him at his best now though, not that he was a great player or anything, but the desire and energy he always showed would lift the others.
 

noodlehair

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He's never been a great captain IMO, always just led by example rather than been a proper leader like Keane or even someone like Kompany, he's rarely given the rest of the team a kick up the arse when it was needed etc. The lack of midfield protection has really affected him as he got older but I still think he has the right attitude generally.

A few of our other players could easily be good players for mid table teams has SAF not been manager and a couple of things went differently, it's regarding these players where I agree with you when discussing 'winning mentality'. It's laughable to suggest players like Evra, Rio, Nani, Cleverley, Valencia, Welbeck, Hernandez or Carrick have anymore of that mentality in comparison to other players from other teams. Even RVP, though clearly deserving to play for a top team, hasn't really proven much in relation to that though I'm probably being harsh because of the mood tonight's game has left me in.
No that's fair enough. I don't think Vidic has been awful. At the same time, I don't think leading by example is the worst thing, but if you're going to do that, you have to be at it and on the front foot all the time, which he just isn't anymore. He no longer leads by example, he leads by waiting for someone else to carry the flag for him. I'd make Rooney captain if I had to choose at this point. Not ideal, but at the moment, he DOES lead by example.

RVP is a fantastic player but I do think he's basically a fanny. He was visibly sulking during the West Brom game, his performances drop off when things aren't going our way. He was still moaning about the Madrid game to the press last season about 6 weeks after it happened. No coincidence our performances completely died after that game. I think he's the type who would be fine if he had enough strong players around him. He's not quite got it in him to be the catalyst. He might come up with a moment of brilliance but he's not going to run the other team into the ground to force it to happen unless other people start doing it first.
 

noodlehair

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He's lost that yard of pace and has to drop off a lot now.
He's never had great pace though, really. In anycase, you may be right but he's the captain. If he's not going to drive other players on by being in their ear and demanding it of them, he needs to be on top of everything to show the standard the rest of them need to match, and he just doesn't do it. He's one of the worst for looking like he's swaggering through a game. Him and Rio together is like watching a pair of old men warming up for a charity game of tennis at times. What does that say to the rest of the team?
 

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Do you think some of our more senior players have played out of their skins under Fergie and can't do the same under a new manager?

Might be time to reinvigorate the squad with more younger, hungry players who have a point to prove like Januzaj and Rafael.
 

ArmchairCritic

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He's never had great pace though, really. In anycase, you may be right but he's the captain. If he's not going to drive other players on by being in their ear and demanding it of them, he needs to be on top of everything to show the standard the rest of them need to match, and he just doesn't do it. He's one of the worst for looking like he's swaggering through a game. Him and Rio together is like watching a pair of old men warming up for a charity game of tennis at times. What does that say to the rest of the team?

I agree, it's time to hand over the keys to the young'uns, they rarely let us down.
 

Mozza

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Do you think some of our more senior players have played out of their skins under Fergie and can't do the same under a new manager?

Might be time to reinvigorate the squad with more younger, hungry players who have a point to prove like Januzaj and Rafael.
Yes, though I think its true of a lot of the squad, we have a lot of seasoned professionals and they are playing on automatic. We aren't doing anything different to last season, the footballs no worse, the results are
 

syrian_scholes

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I agree, it's time to hand over the keys to the young'uns, they rarely let us down.
Agree with this, I love Valencia, but he either get his shit together or get benched, also players like Young should never be in the team, maybe it's time to try playing a youngster in Center Midfield while keeping Januzaj on the wing?