Do our players need to man up?

noodlehair

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Do you think some of our more senior players have played out of their skins under Fergie and can't do the same under a new manager?

Might be time to reinvigorate the squad with more younger, hungry players who have a point to prove like Januzaj and Rafael.
Not quite on the first point. I thought the performances were incredily stale and laboured last season to be honest. It was just that we were still picking up the results. I got pretty sick of hearing that we'd won the league by being average but I couldn't deny thinking the same thing.

On the second point, yes. I think there's too many who think they can just cruise around week after week...it doesn't work one week and they still try to do it the next. A couple maybe who's legs wont let them do any different. I think it's been a problem for a few years and gradually got worse. Janujaz has shown it up horribly this season really. Things like when he came on against Palace and instantly looked like our best player just because he was the only one showing any form of initiative.

You shouldn't be able to look like Manchester United's best player just by being the only one who looks eager to get on the ball. The fact it didn't even shame any of the other players into getting their act together a bit doesn't say a lot for their mindset. In fact it's a pretty pathetic indictment of it.
 

Wowi

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I think Fergie left Moyes an extremely flawed squad that is showing its true colours and making our new managers job extremely difficult.
I think that's what many United fans think really. I'm certainly one of them.

As for the OP, I can see the point in the post and I actually thought of posting a similar thread, but couldn't be bothered to put more than five words together which wouldn't really be an ideal start for a discussion. So many games this season I have had the feeling that the opponent simply has more players on the pitch than we do, because somehow they manage to outnumber us in almost every area of the pitch. We counter-attack, they have defenders back to deal with it before we get men forward. One of our wingers somehow manage to beat their man, they have one or two players ready to take over while still covering our offensive players. They play the ball around in our half, we stand off and look at them doing it. They beat one of our full backs, wide open space for a cross.

Of course that's going over the top quite a bit, but can anyone else relate to this?

As a sidenote, Rio actually posted this the other day:
 

noodlehair

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As a sidenote, Rio actually posted this the other day:
He's really pissing me off this season.

We were in 8th place when he posted that.

He's telling kids not to bother trying their hardest because as long as they're cocky knobheads it wont matter?
 

ArmchairCritic

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He's really pissing me off this season.

We were in 8th place when he posted that.

He's telling kids not to bother trying their hardest because as long as they're cocky knobheads it wont matter?
To be fair SAF said something like he only needs 8 players to play well to win.
 

Wowi

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He's really pissing me off this season.

We were in 8th place when he posted that.

He's telling kids not to bother trying their hardest because as long as they're cocky knobheads it wont matter?
Yeah, it really was an oddly timed tweet. If we had been playing poorly for a few games and still won them all I could maybe understand it, but it was posted after two draws and a generally poor start.

There's certainly some truth in what he's saying though - that players can't play like maniacs for an entire season - but that doesn't mean he should say it.


To be fair SAF said something like he only needs 8 players to play well to win.
"Playing well" and "putting in an effort" are two very different things though.
 

ArmchairCritic

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Yeah, it really was an oddly timed tweet. If we had been playing poorly for a few games and still won them all I could maybe understand it, but it was posted after two draws and a generally poor start.

There's certainly some truth in what he's saying though - that players can't play like maniacs for an entire season - but that doesn't mean he should say it.



"Playing well" and "putting in an effort" are two very different things though.

Can't remember the quote it was either play 100% or try 100%.
 

ArmchairCritic

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How many of them would play well if they all listened to Rio and only played at 80% for every game?

I know what you mean, I can't help but think standards dropped since Keane left. Maybe the game has changed.
 

Freak

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Good OP post noodle. Pretty much what I've been thinking since the early end of last season. Our team is made up of lazy cnuts who think they don't have to put in effort just because they play for United. They are all too comfortable in their roles. A big shake up is needed and it should start in January.
 

Fergus' son

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To be fair, if you look at the other teams in the league, how many of them actually have the type of player that we are saying is missing, a leader and motivator in the Keane mould?

Arsenal don't have any IMO, I suppose Terry still counts and Suarez perhaps? I'm not sure, only Kompany really fits the bill for me.

It is an issue for us but there are also bigger issues at hand. The manager needs to step up as much as anyone.
 

sullydnl

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To be fair, if you look at the other teams in the league, how many of them actually have the type of player that we are saying is missing, a leader and motivator in the Keane mould?

Arsenal don't have any IMO, I suppose Terry still counts and Suarez perhaps? I'm not sure, only Kompany really fits the bill for me.

Saw an interview with Giggs last week where he said there were less of those types of leaders in the game today compared to when he started.
 

noodlehair

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That tweet is infuriating. It's worse because it perfectly sums up everything that's stunk about Rio's performances this season. Arrogant beyond belief.

He's an absolute fecking moron.
 

hungrywing

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To be fair, he is telling it like it is.

The 'flaw' in the tweet is about us being a 'top team'. Although it does make you wonder if the club has misjudged the situation and is working the 'relax' and 'don't push yourselves let the game come to you' angles.

Also, we should have replaced Park and O'Shea (at the very least, Park) with another intelligent grafter-type. There's a good reason most champion-caliber sports teams have one or two 'energy/glue' guys.
 

Fergus' son

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Saw an interview with Giggs last week where he said there were less of those types of leaders in the game today compared to when he started.
They are practically non existent as far as I can tell only Kompany in England seems to affect his team in such a way that everyone of his teammates plays better. Perhaps there are more on the continent? Is Bastian that type? Puyol a few years ago probably.

It's a lot to do with the managers now.
 

noodlehair

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To be fair, he is telling it like it is.

The 'flaw' in the tweet is about us being a 'top team'. Although it does make you wonder if the club has misjudged the situation and is working the 'relax' and 'don't push yourselves let the game come to you' angles.

Also, we should have replaced Park and O'Shea (at the very least, Park) with another intelligent grafter-type. There's a good reason most champion-caliber sports teams have one or two 'energy/glue' guys.
He plays about one game every three weeks, and has been terrible this season. He should never be giving 80% or thinking it's ok to. Teams don't amass squads of 24+ players so the ones who play can think it's ok to try and cruise through games.

It's just a tweet, but feck me the astonishing arrogance to even think like that. It explains a fair bit.
 

Rood

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I think you are reading a bit too much into that tweet, what he says is completely true. They always say the true sign of champions is when they win without playing at top gear.

although I do agree with the general point that some of the players need to step up and push the team on, especially late in games when we keep throwing away points.
 

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What Rio is saying is true when we're on top form and are just creating goals and defending well instinctively. When were struggling like we are now then all that goes out of the window. You need to just graft and earn results, especially when every team that plays you is confident and willing to work their backside off because they sense they can get a result.
 

Commadus

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Blame the squad, Fergie was a magician, poor Moyes he was dealt a poor hand.

Moyes had a title winning squad that hasn't finished out of the top two positions for a while.

Moyes wanted to create United in his image - dour, 442, cross the ball all day long, rinse and repeat.
 

Sky1981

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I've never liked this assertion that we have a squad full of "winners", because for me, we haven't had for a long while now. We've had a manager who can make his players look like a team of winners through his own success and demand for that to continue.

For me, we have no more than a few players who've shown they're made of the right stuff mentally when it matters. Rooney, Rafael, Jones and maybe Janujaz...and the later two have only shown it this season. The rest are largely a bunch of complete fannies, to be honest. They either play like they have nothing to prove to anyone, or they panic and don't possess the ability to play with any semblence of thought or intelligence.

For example, so far this season, we've had on pitch sulking/moping around from Nani and Van Persie, hiding and shirking of responsibility from the likes of Fellaini, Welbeck and Young, constant panicking from Cleverley and Smalling, and worst of all, payers like Rio, who are supposed to be an example, putting in ridiculously casual displays, costing their team the game, and then trying to get away with doing the exact same again the very next week.

Silly errors and lazy use of the ball being repeated week after week from Rio, Vidic, Carrick, etc. One or two who can't even be bothered with the bare basics like getting themselves in shape. You look at when the likes of Keane were around (and I know that's almost a cliche now), and it would never have been accepted as a standard, regardless of who the manager was. It'd be what you do when you want to retire, get shouted at a lot by your team mates, or if you wanted to go and play for Sunderland.

The thing with Fergie is, he could pick a ridiculously retarded line up, and half the time they'd still drag out a win despite playing like a bunch of spazzers...No other manager could get away with doing that, but Fergie had something no other manager can have. He had the desire and demand from himself, but also backed up by the assurance of being so succesful for so long. He couldn't get away with it himself back in 2001 or 2004, because the question marks would still be there when he did something silly.

I've lost patience with the sorry lot now. I thought they were getting their act together, but then you look at tonight, and Cardiff just over a week ago, and the evidence suggests very much otherwise. Ultimately it's the manager's job to sort them out, but whoever the manager is, the players will have to stand up and be counted themselves rather than try to hide behind the strength of someone else. Either that or a lot of them are going to end up being mid table chancers, one way or another.
We don't expect them to win anything

If you think Cardiff Southampton Everton (at home) are too much to ask to win a simple football match,

Nobody here expect this team to win anything, but they do not expect us to be this freaking bad.
 

Sky1981

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Players react to cohession, morale, and esprit d'corp, siege mentality or call it whatever you want, at this rate, there's nothing in the team that shows anything resembling that.

And that's down to the manager, you need to instil that extra spice to the team, or else we'd better getting an armchair FM maestro to dish out the tactics and it won't make a difference.
 

noodlehair

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What Rio is saying is true when we're on top form and are just creating goals and defending well instinctively. When were struggling like we are now then all that goes out of the window. You need to just graft and earn results, especially when every team that plays you is confident and willing to work their backside off because they sense they can get a result.
Have you noticed us grafting at all in games? I haven't.

I've noticed people like Rio swaggering casually around as if they're already 8-0 up often enough.
 

RoadTrip

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That tweet is infuriating. It's worse because it perfectly sums up everything that's stunk about Rio's performances this season. Arrogant beyond belief.

He's an absolute fecking moron.

Can't see the tweet and twitter is blocked at my work lol - what did he say exactly?
 

Stack

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I think Fergie left Moyes an extremely flawed squad that is showing its true colours and making our new managers job extremely difficult.
Thats my feeling, there are more weaknesses than just the midfield. Moyes has walked in to a hospital pass.
 

Mockney

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Do Everton, Southampton and Newcastle have better squads than us? Because they're all above us, and two have new managers.

Regardless of what you think of our squad. I shouldn't be 9th.
 

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Do Everton, Southampton and Newcastle have better squads than us? Because they're all above us, and two have new managers.

Taking over these clubs just isn't the same though, and you truly can't be insinuating such because that would be foolish - I don't even need to explain why it's completely different.

But to answer your question, no, they don't have better squads than us. But no one here is saying it is 100% the fault of the players. Just pointing out that it's a combination of many, many things; Lack of confidence, injuries, some poor management decisions, poor/unfortunate transfer window, poor player performance, unable to cope with the pressure at home, very weak midfield (not just in the middle, but wide too), sloppy defending....

We are in a very bad patch right now, kind of like how Ramsey is in the best purple patch of his life. Eventually we'll settle. The question is when, and if it'll be too late to make top 4.
 

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Do Everton, Southampton and Newcastle have better squads than us? Because they're all above us, and two have new managers.
its a mixture of a flawed squad and moyes getting some things wrong. Our squad isnt what we think it is. Giggs will play 1 good game and then 4 poor ones. Rio is simply past it. Vidic is coming to the end of his era and Evra is of a similar age too. With respect to a backup to Evra of decent quality, we simply dont have one, Everton in the meantime coped quite happily without Baines. Wellbeck simply hardly ever scores and hernandez is a great impact player. Our wingers lack any sort of consistency and its telling that Adnan looks better out wide on the left than any of our other wide left options but his position is probably more likely as an AM. Our backup for Rafael appears to be Smalling who is better as a CB or Valencia who is if we are being honest a winger and not really a good option as your next best RB. In CM we have one truely decent CM and thats Carrick and again he is coming to the tail end of his best years. Everton have a better CM than we do and better back up options. Fergie got the last juice out of a car needing its gas tank topped up. I would bet Fergie couldnt win the league with the squad this year although he would do better than Moyes. We have a wide range of problems and it wouldnt have been fixed right away by any manager.
 

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I never know which thread to post this in, but anyway, how come if we lose it's the players fault & if we win it's down to the manger?

The players are pretty much all winners, PL & quite a few CL winners, so why is it their fault is we lose? What's changed is the manger & the coaching staff.

I'm not saying the players are blameless, but they are fickle, overpaid, primadonnas & they need to be managed properly to get the best out of them.
 

Skywarden

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That tweet by Rio is piss-poor logic and makes even less sense if he's referring to the current team. We aren't winning at 80% pace (or whatever daft percentage you want to use) nor is the confidence high - otherwise we wouldn't be in this position in the first place.

What is he playing at?
 

Revan

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its a mixture of a flawed squad and moyes getting most things wrong. Our squad isnt what we think it is. Giggs will play 1 good game and then 4 poor ones. Rio is simply past it. Vidic is coming to the end of his era and Evra is of a similar age too. With respect to a backup to Evra of decent quality, we simply dont have one, Everton in the meantime coped quite happily without Baines. Wellbeck simply hardly ever scores and hernandez is a great impact player. Our wingers lack any sort of consistency and its telling that Adnan looks better out wide on the left than any of our other wide left options but his position is probably more likely as an AM. Our backup for Rafael appears to be Smalling who is better as a CB or Valencia who is if we are being honest a winger and not really a good option as your next best RB. In CM we have one truely decent CM and thats Carrick and again he is coming to the tail end of his best years. Everton have a better CM than we do and better back up options. Fergie got the last juice out of a car needing its gas tank topped up. I would bet Fergie couldnt win the league with the squad this year although he would do better than Moyes. We have a wide range of problems and it wouldnt have been fixed right away by any manager.
Corrected. You described our squad in such a way that if a Martian saw this post he would have thought that we were struggling to survive the relegation in the last few season.

There is only a single reason why we have become so shit, accept it or not.
 

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Corrected. You described our squad in such a way that if a Martian saw this post he would have thought that we were struggling to survive the relegation in the last few season.

There is only a single reason why we have become so shit, accept it or not.
Yes - that reason is that Ferguson retired, not because Moyes was hired. Honestly, do you think other managers would have come in and done significantly better? Because if you do, you're seriously underestimating the impact that SAF leaving has. They may have done a bit better, but certainly not as good as you seem to make out.
 

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Corrected. You described our squad in such a way that if a Martian saw this post he would have thought that we were struggling to survive the relegation in the last few season.

There is only a single reason why we have become so shit, accept it or not.
You really are a feckwit.
 

Revan

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Yes - that reason is that Ferguson retired, not because Moyes was hired. Honestly, do you think other managers would have come in and done significantly better? Because if you do, you're seriously underestimating the impact that SAF leaving has. They may have done a bit better, but certainly not as good as you seem to make out.
Without a shadow of doubt. I genuinely think that we would have been first with Mourinho/Ancelotti/Pep/Klopp and not far from the top with Bielsa/Pellegrini/Simeone.

Of course the reason that Fergie retired is a big reason, but Moyes until now has done as a good job as Benitez did on Inter, Ferrara on Juventus and only slightly better than Hodgson did at Liverpool. One of the worst spells of a manager I have ever seen in a top club.