I think it’s pretty funny that this pass from Ramsdale is used as an example. First of all, he is not under pressure… secondly, it’s an open pass to an open player, there is absolutely nothing impressive or risky about it. None whatsoever, it’s a completely normal pass you’d expect all keepers in the League 1 and above to complete ten out of ten times. Silly.
Do we need a modern goalkeeper?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
I’d worry about getting midfielders that can play those passes before I worry about my keeper doing it. The Rasmdale pass is good and all but there were numerous examples from that same game of him fecking up and giving the ball away in dangerous areas.
You should read my previous posts again where I quite clearly mention sweeping as one aspect of what is expected of a modern keeper by the new breed of coaches in the game today. And the most important aspect being comfortable on the ball which I mentioned quite clearly and you've ignored.
'In a team that barely has midfielders that can pass forward', is absolutely a assumption because we do have midfielders who have the ability to pass forward. The problem is the midfielders being selected to play (McTominay and Fred) aren't conducive to helping a team control possession against opposition who set out to play through midfield. And that could change very quickly without the club even looking externally like I've mentioned in one of my previous posts. If someone like Ten Hag was appointment it wouldn't surprise me at all if he promoted Hannibal Mejbri and also brought in Ethan Laird which potentially would improve our build up play. And it also wouldn't surprise me if he dropped De Gea for a keeper who is comfortable on the ball. And the reason for that is he wants his team to control multiple defensive and attacking zones via possession play. So his ideology when it comes to playing football would bring about a change even without dipping into the transfer kitty because he wants his team to control the game which would help the likes of Hannibal and Laird etc who are both technically good which is a requirement for a coach like Ten Hag or a Nagelsmann who is unavailable.
De Gea isn't awful with his feet but he's no where near good enough and when you also factor in him being a complete non entity when it comes to commanding his box it's not good enough IMO. He's a very limited keeper which is not good enough.
Absolutely this for me. Can I join your oldskool club plz?!
Is Keylar Navas a modern day goalkeeper?
Just checking to see who the last CL winning GK was or wasn't modern.
Just checking to see who the last CL winning GK was or wasn't modern.
Still early days but De Gea this season just looks different. Maybe it's just an extension of the improved feeling and vibe throughout the whole camp but confidence wise he reminds me of the younger version of himself. He's feet isn't world class but feeling is that our first choice GK situation is solved for the coming 5-10 years with henderson coming through as well. It's not where we need improvement.
I don't think goalkeepers working with their feet is all that important.
Back in the day, no one was asking Schmeichel or VDS to do that. And De Gea is as good as them.
Back in the day, no one was asking Schmeichel or VDS to do that. And De Gea is as good as them.
Absolutely this for me. Can I join your oldskool club plz?!
of course you can.Ever since Guardiola and his expansive football, there seems to be a belief that keepers and CBs should be able to play out from the back.
People seem to forget that defences that dont conceed goals win championships and trophies. So personally I couldn't care less about a keepers outfield distribution or a CBs ability to pop a ball 30 yards from left to right.
All I care about is clean sheets. Keepers stopping the ball crossing the line and CBs being like chiellini / colin hendry etc putting everything they have into stopping the ball going into their own net.
That's their primary job. That wins you trophies. All the fancy expansive football wins you plaudits but does it really win you the biggest trophies of them all? CL? For example? How many of those has Guardiola won without peak Messi?
More like there seems to be a group of people convinced the argument is that keepers need to be able to play out from the back only, at the expense of their day job. No one's saying that so it's a strange point to argue against.
Everyone knows not conceding goals is the idea. A keeper that's good on the ball helps you do that too, by letting you control the game more and stay on the front foot.
And as for your first post saying we have two very good keepers, well, we don't. We'll have one good one again if De Gea keeps his form from the first 5 matches up, but going by last season's metrics they're both firmly middle-of-the-pack.
It's not a coincidence that Guardiola has consistently had excellent defensive records in all his teams.
Ever since Guardiola and his expansive football, there seems to be a belief that keepers and CBs should be able to play out from the back.
People seem to forget that defences that dont conceed goals win championships and trophies. So personally I couldn't care less about a keepers outfield distribution or a CBs ability to pop a ball 30 yards from left to right.
All I care about is clean sheets. Keepers stopping the ball crossing the line and CBs being like chiellini / colin hendry etc putting everything they have into stopping the ball going into their own net.
That's their primary job. That wins you trophies. All the fancy expansive football wins you plaudits but does it really win you the biggest trophies of them all? CL? For example? How many of those has Guardiola won without peak Messi?
Keeping the ball and controlling the game as they do is (as per Guardiola) the key to their defence and his goalkeepers' ability on the ball is a big part of that. Saves aren't the only way to prevent goals, sweeping and being good on the ball reduce the chances you face too. If you want your team to concede fewer goals, you want a goalkeeper with that "modern" skillset in addition to traditional shot-stopping.
Also the old adage that defence wins you titles isn't actually true as far as the PL is concerned at least. Historically title wins have correlated more strongly with attack rather than defence.
Not necessarily.
Or - put it like this: Would a bog standard "modern" keeper be more valuable to this particular team - under Ole - than a DDG playing at a level somewhere near his old best? Obviously not.
(You can probably downgrade "somewhere near his old best" to "pretty decent" - and it'd still be true).
Or - put it like this: Would a bog standard "modern" keeper be more valuable to this particular team - under Ole - than a DDG playing at a level somewhere near his old best? Obviously not.
(You can probably downgrade "somewhere near his old best" to "pretty decent" - and it'd still be true).
Surely United wouldn't aim for a "bog standard" modern keeper though? So why is that even the argument?
Perhaps not the best choice of words.
My point is simple: we don't seem to play in a way that would make a "modern keeper" a better default alternative than a very good shot stopper (which DDG undoubtedly is when he's on song).
(Might add that DDG's weakness in the area - on crosses, etc. - doesn't have anything to do with "modern" versus "non-modern", that's a pretty much timeless weakness).
Playing out from the back is not a trend, it is here to stay.
I agree that some managers feel GKs should be good with their feet. I disagree though that DDG is not good enough. Yeah he’s not amazing, but he is sufficient.
Also, I feel you think this stuff is more important than it is. By no means am I saying that a keeper should be liability on the ball, but their job first and foremost is stop the ball going into the net. Which would Ten Hag take, the DDG of old who saved literally everything, or a goalie who is excellent with his feet but has a mistake in him? I think we all know the answer.
It's not a new phenomenon - it has been around for decades and decades, in various guises.
But so has the "opposite" (not literally opposite in many cases, but there you go) approach.
There isn't any ultimate way to play football - never has been, never will be.
That's fair enough and is your opinion.
I have no doubt if Ten Hag had the choice of Cillesen or Onana over De Gea he would choose Cillesen or Onana because he's a coach who is influenced by a ideology which looks to dominate the ball and having the goalkeeper as one of the 11 outfield players is important for exerting control.
Guardiola is also not someone that has revolutioned the role in question which some naively seem to believe. Guardiola is rather influenced by the traditions of the Dutch via Cruyff and is a student of Gusztav Sebes’s 1950s golden Hungary team where the keeper is utilised as one of the 11 outfield players.
I literally haven’t.I mean you've literally made that up.
He messed up once
I watched the game, yes you did. There were no 'numerous examples' where he lost the ball.
But, if you believe so please point them out. One time he got caught out.
I also watched it. I have no desire to watch it again to find some examples to prove a point to a random Arsenal fan online.
He has considerably lower pass completion stats than De Gea.
One is also a number, thus numerous!
Because it didn't happen.. but ok. What has pass completion got to do with giving the ball away in dangerous areas? He could have tried to hit some long passes that didn't make it through, doesn't mean they're high risk. Like I said, you made it up.
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I have never once implied that it is the only way to play football, I didn't say anything remotely like that. All I said is that playing out from the back and having gk's who are comfortable recieving and passing in the build up phase is not a trend that will go away. Football is moving in the direction of all players on the field in every position being more technically gifted and comfortable on the ball, even the gk. There is no advantage to be gained in having a goalkeeper that is bad on the ball, but there IS an advantage to be gained in having a GK that is good on the ball. This will still be true 10, 20, 30 years from now, unless the rules of the sport are radically changed.
You do know that Schmeichel insisted on being involved with the passing and possesion drills when he arrived at Utd for this very reason.
The midfield “pivot”?
I didn’t though. Enjoy the rest of your evening.
You don't have to! Just look at the keeper's pass map from the game, here:
West Bromwich Albion 0-6 Arsenal - League Cup 2021/2022 Live (whoscored.com)
Quick look tells me there weren't numerous examples of Ramsdale giving the ball away - he seems to have missed 7 passes out of 45, and 6 of them were categorized as long passes - like the random Arsenal fan was saying. His "turnovers" also seem to be zero.
So, uh. Looks you did, in fact, make it up. No worries, just call me sad and say you can't be arsed to prove me wrong any more than you can the other guy.
Maybe but its hard to build a good attacking team if everyone spends the game terrified that the defence or keeper will let them down. #buildfromtheback
I'm not convinced it's super important and long live De Gea's revival, but if we were going for one I'd look at Diogo Costa at Porto. Looks good with the ball at his feet but also seems to be a very good shot stopper. I don't think we should ever be prioritising ball playing over goalkeeping, but if you can have both why not?
Does the site tell you whether the clearance he kicked straight at the incoming West Brom attacker was a long pass or short pass? It only moved a few yards but it looked like he was trying to kick it long. Nice attempt to prove me wrong but you don’t even understand the numbers.
Even if that's the case, De Gea, at this point, is who he is. The club could go after a ''modern goalkeeper'' but if he keeps this form up, and the talent we have upfront keep scoring, really don't think we will suffer too much.
You said "numerous", bud. Go ahead and list the rest (and if the clearance you're talking about is the one I'm remembering, it's not exactly an example of giving the ball away as much as mis-hitting a clearance under pressure).
The Internet would be a much nicer place if people simply acknowledged it and moved on when called out for making things up. I've done it myself, on here and elsewhere.
Good for you. This is an incredibly dull conversation which nobody wants to read. If it makes you happy I’ll concede that you have won the internet.
Absolutely. When I saw the title I immediately thought of the way Bazunu had more Ireland on the front foot that they would normally have been, how comfortable he was on the ball, giving his defenders an easy pass if they needed it and how he was able to break the press a number of times with accurate passes.
I know he's young and it wasn't PL opposition but it highlighted the impact a keeper with those skills can have on a team.
It is the case. He's said so himself.
If Ole wants this Utd team to be successful at playing out from the back, then he needs to find a keeper who is comfortable on the ball. De Gea is not, his short passing is not good enough and he doesn't show for the ball when it's at the back. Henderson is slightly better than him with the ball, but he still has a tendency to hoof it under no presssure.
Even if either of fhem were great with ball then other problem is midfield and having reliable passing options in there for them to give the ball to.
Well, today's game proves your point... I didnt know De Gea was this poor with the ball...
He is. Always has heen and always will be.
A simple "yup, I made that up" would have been much more efficient. But I guess this is fine, thanks :*