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Do we need a modern goalkeeper?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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Enjoy your evening, etc etc (:
Staying on topic, I didn't think De Gea's distribution was bad today, he picked Pogba out a few times in the first half and got us moving with that nice quick throw in the second. People will jump on the backpass mix-up but that was an elementary mistake from Maguire
Definitely looks like he's worked on it over the summer, anyway.
Staying on topic, I didn't think De Gea's distribution was bad today, he picked Pogba out a few times in the first half and got us moving with that nice quick throw in the second. People will jump on the backpass mix-up but that was an elementary mistake from Maguire
Definitely looks like he's worked on it over the summer, anyway.
Donno why people feel the need to just completely make things up to make a point. Then when get called out on it, make up excuses rather than accept they were wrong
Anyway I think you can find a balance. Mendy isn't amazing with his feet but suits Chelsea really well.
- Obession with 3 defenders formations because Pep used it against shite Bundesliga teams - use of wing backs;
- inverted fullbacks(see previous example),
- diamond formation,
- ball playing defenders as defensive midfielders,
- defensive midfielders as fullbacks,
- formation with false nines, etc.
Wait, what?
Did no one tell the European champions (or the Italian or Spanish ones) this trend has already passed?
Atletico play with a back 3?
They did for large parts of last season, yes.
I meant in PL and CL, people here were obsessed with us playing aith 3 at the back. Juventus can win 5 out of 10 Serie A titles playing whatever they want.
The absolute last position we need to invest in now is goalkeepers. Not a single penny should be spent on anything but the midfield.
He hit a fantastic long pass to Bruno when he was galloping down the left wing in the first half.
Still not convinced by him with the ball at his feet, mind you.
Absolutely. DeGea looks to be getting back to form and has probably been our best player so far, been pretty much faultless and we have Henderson behind him. DeGeas distribution isnt brilliant, but it certainly isnt poor enough to even warrant the modern keeper discussion if he is playing well.
There are only two positions we really need to invest and they are both the double pivots
It's a baffling point to try and make.
The post you were quoting was referring to short-term football trends that will pass, and you've listed 3-at-the-back formations with wingbacks as something people are apparently obsessed with because Guardiola used them to smash a few crap Bundesliga teams.
Three of the best teams in Europe (Juventus are not one of them) use those formations right now. And if anything, the teams that have been emulating it lately (at least half the Prem has tried the 3-4-3 at some point in the last five years) have been trying to replicate Conte's Chelsea, not Guardiola.
If we had Emi Martinez, we’d be better off. He’s a brilliant sweeper who would save our defenders from a lot of work. Having such GK is necessary for all sides that want to retain a high line, which is often needed to dominate games.
I agree 100%. Specifically, DCM.
No, we have De Gea and Henderson. Top class goalkeepers.
So basically you are annoyed just because I mentioned Pep?
Also, which 3 teams?
No, I'm not annoyed, I'm just confused because your point makes zero sense.
I've already told you which three teams. Literally in my first response
I've already told you which three teams. Literally in my first response
Watching Brighton's 2nd goal against Liverpool, simply De Gea isn't able to execute these kinds of passes. He would also never be so far out of his goal which also allows his team to play a high line and that is another problem.
I think Sanchez could be a good option for a modern keeper who might not cost a lot.
https://juststream.live/StripesSkitSuperfluously
I think Sanchez could be a good option for a modern keeper who might not cost a lot.
https://juststream.live/StripesSkitSuperfluously
Fully on board with us needing this type of goalkeeper. Sanchez isn't the one though. I feel that he's got too many mistakes in him.
De Gea for sure has his faults but we're so far away from this helping us I think. Right now we just need a good shot stopper to keep us in games. When a style of play has been established then might be the time to look into this IMO.
We need a loud voiced, mouthy, angry b@stard between the sticks to keep the defence on their toes
Redcafe is probably the wrong place to ask such a question.
Yes, one of those trendy guys with a shite load of tattoos are all the rage.
DDG has been around since United were successful. He's bailing managers off multiple times including Ole. I can't understand United fans. We play 2 defensive minded CM, we play 6 defenders and now this theory about DDG not protecting the defense enough. It seems that everyone has to bend over backwards to make our 80m CB look half decent and the idiot who sanctioned this deal.
The two go hand in hand though, you can’t establish a style of play until you have the players to do it. We can’t start playing a high line and expecting DDG to sweep then be all surprised when we start leaking goals.
I get that some keepers will be better at others with the ball at their feet, but I don't get how a keeper couldn't learn to stand further off their line and rush out to clear through balls. There's no technical skill to it, its just decision making that can be fine tuned with practise. Pace will be a limiting factor but as long as their decisions account for their pace it shouldn't be decisive.
One thing’s for sure, if he hasn’t learned it by now, he won’t learn it in the future. He’s not a young keeper any more. If we are going to end up replacing Ole with a modern, progressive coach then a new goalkeeper will be fairly high up his list of wants.
If a keeper stays on his line all the time then you can't compress the pitch. It makes every other player's job more difficult. That's before you factor in defenders having to deal with every corner and crossed ball.
He's a great shotstopper but that's not enough.
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You need to play defenders to sweep up in a space that is the responsibility of the keeper in other teams. A bigger range taken care of by the keeper allows everyone to move higher up, that is the point. Does not matter who the CB is, every CB would profit when he has to take care of less space.
His distribution has clearly improved, his shot stopping is somewhat near his best right now, I wish he would command his area better but you can't have everything, for me he's a bit "Stuck to the line", I also think 3 CBs will mitigate this somewhat though.
Yeah but why hasn't he learnt it? Have we not trained him to do it, or is he reluctant to do it? What about Henderson, he's young enough that you'd think he could develop that side to his game. Its not something that seems like an inate skill, so with drills you'd think it would become second nature before long.
It actually puts in to perspective why their may be some reticence from the board to hire such a manager, because it would mean a complete overhaul. De Gea, Henderson, possibly AWB and Maguire for similar reasons, a few others, all valuable assets, would need to be sold, likely at well below market price, and replacements brought in who fit the new style, likely at well above market price. It'd cost a fortune.
I don't envy the decision makers in this regard, but its clear we need a DoF with the authority to implement and oversee a footballing strategy in this respect.
It's not just defenders. If you compress the pitch then there's less space for the oppostion to play in and all your players are closer together which makes pressing high up and all over the pitch the pitch easier. Winning the ball back high up the pitch is the optimum place to do so.
This is why the low block is Ole's only hand as United manager. I'm not even sure he understands or gives credence to any of this. The performance against Liverpool would suggest not. It was utter chaos with massive spaces all over the pitch. We were trying to 'take the game to Liverpool' according to Ole but there was no structure in place to effectively do so.
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Of course everyone else has to drop deeper to defend the spaces left by the defenders and then by the midfielders.
However this is exactly what did not happen in some games, where massive gaps existed between United's lines.
I don’t think his distribution has improved. In our last match he managed to ping a straightforward pass straight to a Spurs player in a very dangerous position. And that was under no pressure at all. This happens far too frequently. The game has changed and top goalkeepers at top clubs all seem far more comfortable on the ball than De Gea, with the ability to trigger attacks with accurate passes between the lines or long passes to wide attacking players. Something we just don’t see at United.
Ok, tried uploading a picture to a drop site and embedding it but I always get "Something went wrong", so I think I must be missing it slightly, this is the link (below) https://ibb.co/ys5KhmG taken from FBref
Short passing in the last 5 years he has a very high percentage, medium he averages around 96 to 98%, long range he averaged (before this season) around 45 to 50% but this season is sitting at 65%, context for which is Ederson who has averaged 60% to 70% of long passes over the past 5 years. His issue is his sweeping - Not distribution but he had a bad impression with regards to his distribution which will take a while to change peoples minds.
Personally, I'm not that interested in pass completion for a GK. It is self-evident when you watch De Gea for United that he's reluctant to get involved in playing out from the back, moving into space off his goal-line, showing for the ball, picking the right pass rather than just the easiest pass. He was a liability against Liverpool.
Not to neg on Ole again but this is partly a coaching issue too. Ederson doesn’t fluke these passes or just decide it on a whim. He’s awesome and has massive balls to play the way he does but it’s set up for him meticulously during the week with players movement.
It’s a chicken and egg though isn’t it? If you’re keeper isn’t quite capable of it then it’s probably not wise to set up so he makes 50 passes a game. So in short, yes our next keeper needs to be top class on the ball or we’ll fall behind
It’s a chicken and egg though isn’t it? If you’re keeper isn’t quite capable of it then it’s probably not wise to set up so he makes 50 passes a game. So in short, yes our next keeper needs to be top class on the ball or we’ll fall behind
Generally yes, I would expect any manager who plays "modern" possession football to look for a more "modern" goalkeeper as there's no question it's an issue. Certainly whenever we replace him I hope it's with that type of goalkeeper.
There's a difference between wants and needs though. A new manager who arrives this summer may well want a new goalkeeper but other positions may have to take priority. Midfield being the obvious area that needs work already and more so if Pogba and/or VDB leave. But also right-back where AWB is at least as much of a liability on the ball as De Gea but where we have worse cover. And Cavani will likely be leaving too, so a CF may be needed. Plus there are rumours of other players wanting to leave like Telles, Bailly, etc. which may necessitate signings in other areas we don't necessarily want to make but need to cover.
We know from previous summers that there's only so much business we're going to actually get done in any one transfer window so with us already stacked for goalkeepers and De Gea back in shot-stopping form we may well have to make do for another season or so at least.
It is also partially a coaching issue though. For example there was one instance against Liverpool where De Gea knocked a bad ball out wide. However when you broke it down the issue stemmed from Fred and McTominay being on top of each other in midfield and not offering an easy ball out of defence, with Lindelof having to pass the ball back to De Gea and then indicate for him to knock it out wide. That issue with midfield not getting in good positions to support our defence playing out from the back is a long-standing one and puts more pressure on the likes of De Gea. He'll never be great on the ball but good structures around him will at least put him in those bad positions less often.
There's a difference between wants and needs though. A new manager who arrives this summer may well want a new goalkeeper but other positions may have to take priority. Midfield being the obvious area that needs work already and more so if Pogba and/or VDB leave. But also right-back where AWB is at least as much of a liability on the ball as De Gea but where we have worse cover. And Cavani will likely be leaving too, so a CF may be needed. Plus there are rumours of other players wanting to leave like Telles, Bailly, etc. which may necessitate signings in other areas we don't necessarily want to make but need to cover.
We know from previous summers that there's only so much business we're going to actually get done in any one transfer window so with us already stacked for goalkeepers and De Gea back in shot-stopping form we may well have to make do for another season or so at least.
It is also partially a coaching issue though. For example there was one instance against Liverpool where De Gea knocked a bad ball out wide. However when you broke it down the issue stemmed from Fred and McTominay being on top of each other in midfield and not offering an easy ball out of defence, with Lindelof having to pass the ball back to De Gea and then indicate for him to knock it out wide. That issue with midfield not getting in good positions to support our defence playing out from the back is a long-standing one and puts more pressure on the likes of De Gea. He'll never be great on the ball but good structures around him will at least put him in those bad positions less often.
Definitely. Distribution is shocking and so is his command of area/aerial ability. From time-to-time, he'll make a decent stop and people will claim that is enough to paper over the cracks, but it really isn't. You expect all Premier League GKs to be able to make good reflex stops, that should be an absolute given.