Do you believe we'll try anything different during what are seemingly Ole's last days?

Fortitude

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Something that has fascinated and baffled in equal measure is the dogged determination those who set us up have to a system and personnel that look like they will be the death of them.

There's loyalty and a coping mechanism in sticking with what you know and those who may have served you well in the past, but then there's a point where that same criteria is the death of many a manager who, for whatever reason, just will not even attempt something different.

McFred have done well by Ole in the past and it made sense to persevere with them off the back of credit banked, but surely, you have to see that McTominay (most likely not fit) is flagging, badly, and Fred has dropped some levels this season? The same goes for Maguire - he's Ole's captain and he sees him as a bedrock of the side, however, Maguire is struggling out there (most likely not fit on top of that) and has been more of a hindrance than an aid to a man with his job on the line. There's a sense that sticking by him through thick and thin could reap dividends, but equally, there can be no surprise whatsoever if/when he absolutely crumbles out there over the course of these three crucial games.

Finally, our formation, no matter how they try, our coaches and manager cannot make it work; this might well be more detrimental to them all than standing by under-performing players actually, because it's the easiest inlet possible for rival coaches to exploit the inherent flaws in a system that isn't working on any level. Our system enables managers to plan, in detail, how to get at us and it's tried and tested to the hilt this season with a blueprint team after team we face are utilising.

The divides regarding Ole are basically scorched earth by now and this thread isn't asking you whether he is good enough or should stay on - it's about what we will choose to do against Spurs, Atalanta and City and whether we'll see any changes whatsoever. Will there be any attempt to approach the games differently with either personnel or the system we play?
 

The-Natural

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No I think there's a very good chance that Ole truly believes that the dusting yourself down/we go again/fighting for the badge cliches that have been doled out to the players this week are actually going to work and he will therefore pick more or less the same team again.
 

Skills

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I'm not sure. He's in an interesting predicament - because the likes of Klopp and Guardiola, in their bad moments just get through with pure defiance. They convince their players and everyone around them, they're right - when something's gone wrong it's just an anomaly. You just need to do as they say and the results will eventually come.

I don't think Ole can do that because something has to change. We've got issues at a much more fundamental level. But if you change a good amount, more questions start to be asked. Why didn't he think of this before? Were we just headed down a cul-de-sac for the last year's?
 

Vidyoyo

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I can't see us doing much to the midfield just because we're so short, but I have a sneaky suspicion Ole is going to put Ronaldo left and start Cavani up top. I also reckon Rashford will start on the right, though I think the most sensible decision would be to play Sancho there.

Guess we'll see because I've kinda just pulled this from my arse.
 

DJ_21

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The only change for tomorrow game will most likely be Varane, possibly Maguire too. Must be annoying for van de beek, ole stops him from moving in the summer as he said he’d be an important player this year but he hasn’t given him a chance what so ever… Van de beek only stays if we get a new manager. I doubt he’ll change formation as he’s to stubborn… didn’t 3 at the back work well for us on a few occasions? It should at least stop us leaking goals… at this stage though I don’t think it matters what formation or players we play if the coaches can’t drill them to play it. Our defence is a shambles and all over the place we need a manager with good organisation skills.
 

Denis79

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We'll go back to counter-attacking and probably play 5 defenders tomorrow.
 

UpWithRivers

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He cant risk dropping any big name players and have them turn on him. If he wants them to stick by him then he needs to stick by them. So he will give the same team a chance to go out and prove themselves. Varane for Lindelof is the only change I can see, maybe Greenwood for Sancho but thats it. The press might go out of the window though. He will tell them to sit back and counter.
 

The Oracle

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Mark my words, these are not 'Ole's last days'.

There is no doubt that the only clause the board have implemented into Ole's contract that can trigger the termination of his services, is if we finish outside of the Top 4.

Until it is mathematically impossible for us to get to Top 4 before the end of the season, then he is here to stay.

I hate the clause just as much as every other United fan.
But what can we do about it?
Nothing.
 

shaky

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Mark my words, these are not 'Ole's last days'.

There is no doubt that the only clause the board have implemented into Ole's contract that can trigger the termination of his services, is if we finish outside of the Top 4.

Until it is mathematically impossible for us to get to Top 4 before the end of the season, then he is here to stay.

I hate the clause just as much as every other United fan.
But what can we do about it?
Nothing.
Are you sure there's no doubt about that? I have a doubt. Sounds like you just made it up actually.
 

Flytan

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If he does then all it shows is that he really doesn't even believe in his own play. There's been plenty of time for him to give the likes of DVB opportunities and to make changes. If he does it now it just shows he's more of a fraud than I imagined. I don't know what comes out on top, his stubbornness or his lack of ability for the lineup tomorrow.
 

Ixion

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For any normal manager I think it would be unthinkable to stick with the same formation and system, when have you ever heard of a team getting beat 5-0 and sticking with the same line-up. He basically has no choice but to make changes.
 

TheMitz

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He'll go with the DO NOT LOSE attitude, this mentality sums up his tenure here.
 

GreatDane

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Mark my words, these are not 'Ole's last days'.

There is no doubt that the only clause the board have implemented into Ole's contract that can trigger the termination of his services, is if we finish outside of the Top 4.

Until it is mathematically impossible for us to get to Top 4 before the end of the season, then he is here to stay.

I hate the clause just as much as every other United fan.
But what can we do about it?
Nothing.
I doubt it. The Glazers are in it for the money, and missing Top 4 would cost more money than sacking a manager.

They're idiots but not clueless.
 

Flytan

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For any normal manager I think it would be unthinkable to stick with the same formation and system, when have you ever heard of a team getting beat 5-0 and sticking with the same line-up. He basically has no choice but to make changes.
Bielsa against us, but that's because he's actually a decent manager. Managers can be stubborn and bad (Ole) or stubborn and good (Bielsa/Pep).
 

tomaldinho1

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Hard to know. Spurs look really average under Nuno so you have to hope he won't bottle it and will actually make some changes.
 

McGrathsipan

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Mark my words, these are not 'Ole's last days'.

There is no doubt that the only clause the board have implemented into Ole's contract that can trigger the termination of his services, is if we finish outside of the Top 4.

Until it is mathematically impossible for us to get to Top 4 before the end of the season, then he is here to stay.

I hate the clause just as much as every other United fan.
But what can we do about it?
Nothing.
What clause means anything?

The board can do as they wish. The clause whatever it is will only protect a payout for the manager.
Ridiculous to suggest we can't sack him.

On the other hand it's not entirely plausible to suggest that they won't get rid. You could be right in saying he's staying as the board may not want to pay him off.

I reckon a couple more defeats and the pressure from customers and shareholders will be top much
 

Flytan

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Is Bielsa good? He gets so much credit for a manager that gets absolutely spanked in games against us. Having him in the same sentence as Pep is blasphemy for me
Obviously nowhere near the level of Pep but he's earned the right to be considered a good manager in my eyes. At least when you compare him to some of the other managers in the premier league
 

Cheimoon

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Something that has fascinated and baffled in equal measure is the dogged determination those who set us up have to a system and personnel that look like they will be the death of them.

There's loyalty and a coping mechanism in sticking with what you know and those who may have served you well in the past, but then there's a point where that same criteria is the death of many a manager who, for whatever reason, just will not even attempt something different.

McFred have done well by Ole in the past and it made sense to persevere with them off the back of credit banked, but surely, you have to see that McTominay (most likely not fit) is flagging, badly, and Fred has dropped some levels this season? The same goes for Maguire - he's Ole's captain and he sees him as a bedrock of the side, however, Maguire is struggling out there (most likely not fit on top of that) and has been more of a hindrance than an aid to a man with his job on the line. There's a sense that sticking by him through thick and thin could reap dividends, but equally, there can be no surprise whatsoever if/when he absolutely crumbles out there over the course of these three crucial games.

Finally, our formation, no matter how they try, our coaches and manager cannot make it work; this might well be more detrimental to them all than standing by under-performing players actually, because it's the easiest inlet possible for rival coaches to exploit the inherent flaws in a system that isn't working on any level. Our system enables managers to plan, in detail, how to get at us and it's tried and tested to the hilt this season with a blueprint team after team we face are utilising.

The divides regarding Ole are basically scorched earth by now and this thread isn't asking you whether he is good enough or should stay on - it's about what we will choose to do against Spurs, Atalanta and City and whether we'll see any changes whatsoever. Will there be any attempt to approach the games differently with either personnel or the system we play?
I wonder what could be achieved through making those changes. Maguire, McTominay, and Fred aren't that bad, yet are performing dreadfully. I know you don't want to make this into an Ole-bashing thread, but I would suspect that these players' underperformance is due to the team setup (coaching, tactics, patterns of play) - in which case putting others in their place would not make a great difference. You would just start a new cycle where these players get credit until it's completely burned up, and the cycle restarts with Maguire etc.

You can bench players to get a response of course, and at the same time motivate players that haven't had starter opportunities before. But if the issues are setup-related, then the players will be aware, and might be frustrated that they're being scapegoated while the fundamental issue isn't with them.

I suppose arguing this way suggests that it's Ole that needs to be 'benched' (i.e., removed) rather than any players, but that's not the only way out. Another would be for Ole to make more fundamental changes to his approach. That sounds more fruitful long-term for me, rather than shaking things up hoping for a short-term reaction.

Or maybe things will just somehow click again and United will go on a long, successful run all of a sudden! There is certainly the quality for that. But given how United's style has been the past year or so and the way matches have been playing out, that doesn't seem too likely to me.
 

Forevergiggs1

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Hes going to be focusing on defending tomorrow so I can see him dropping Greenwood for Lingard and having Bruno sitting in front of the DMs. Cavani should be in for Ronaldo but we all know that's not going to happen. He says he's got a fully fit squad so I'd expect Varane in for Lindelof even though he should be in for Maquire.

If he names the same team and formation as the Liverpool one he should be sacked on the spot no mayer the score.
 

Paxi

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@Fortitude It’s a case of when one is under pressure, not just in football, in any situation, one tends to freeze and instead of a bad decision, they make no decision at all.

That would dovetail with being afraid to make a wrong decision as it’s naturally easier psychologically to sticking with what you know, as you have already pointed out.

I don’t believe we will try anything different as I personally don’t believe Ole has it in him. He has never showed us any tactical acumen to change a game, or change personel in-game to affect the game. It you actually look at his substitutions — he’s afraid to make them and when he does — they like for like.
 

JB7

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I can't see us doing much to the midfield just because we're so short, but I have a sneaky suspicion Ole is going to put Ronaldo left and start Cavani up top. I also reckon Rashford will start on the right, though I think the most sensible decision would be to play Sancho there.

Guess we'll see because I've kinda just pulled this from my arse.
In truth Ronaldo-Cavani-Sancho is an attack that intrigues me, I think it would work really well if we had a workman like midfield 3. But obviously we aren't dropping Bruno so it's difficult to build a case for it.
 

humdinger

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Yes. I think we'll pack the defence and grind out a win and there'll be much back slapping within the club like Liverpool was a minor hiccup
 

Hoof the ball

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Change? No. Tactics are overrated.


"Football is a simple game."
And yet oddly enough winning coaches have fairly detailed and precise tactical instructions and make in-match adjustments to turn a game round tactically. Nothing simple about that quality.

"it's about making good decisions."
But making good decisions are largely positively influenced by having passing options, which again, are maximised through detailed coaching and tactical instruction.

"It's about your qualities"
Sure it is, but again, cohesive coaching and tactical instruction produce more 1-on-1 situations in which to unlock those qualities.

"It's about being in a team"
As opposed to be in a group of eleven individual players, right? Being in a team implies cohesion, which again, speaks to good coaching and instruction as a group.

"And sometimes we look too much into all the little intricacies"
It's the exact opposite, Ole. You dispense of the intricacies in favour of broad-stroked solutions which have so little nuance as to be easily nullified.

And he just goes on with the cliches. You don't hear this coming from the likes of Pep, Tuchel or Klopp, do you? Klopp routinely talks about how Sacchi influenced him tactically. Can you imagine Ole knowing a Sacchi innovation, let alone letting it influence his approach to tactics?
 
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JebelSherif

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I can't see us doing much to the midfield just because we're so short, but I have a sneaky suspicion Ole is going to put Ronaldo left and start Cavani up top. I also reckon Rashford will start on the right, though I think the most sensible decision would be to play Sancho there.

Guess we'll see because I've kinda just pulled this from my arse.
Is it written into Ronaldo's contract that if he is fit, he plays?

I can't remember who it was - some past galactico & there was a rumour they had such an arrangement.
 

Ranchero

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I would mass drop including Ronaldo and start Cavani and play Van De Beek, Lingard, Telles, Dalot and Bailly.
 

Frank Grimes

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Have we ever had a manager so bad at utilising his squad? I don't think we have and for some reason he loves to play players who are not fully fit or just back from injury. He hasn't the guts to drop big name players so don't be expecting any major changes tomorrow.
 

hobbers

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Evidently yes.

We've gone from his panic back six to a panic back seven.
 

studs

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Might see Ole off his arse squawking out a few squeaks.
 

Addled

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So we are going with a back 5 to try and solidify the defence. He has selected Varane who I really hope is fully fit. We stick with McFred which gives no confidence. We start Cavani which will certainly help to increase the defensive effort from the top end of the pitch.
So as for trying something different? Well the tweak to the defence and dropping Greenwood, Rashford, Sancho and still not giving Matic, Donny and Jesse a fair crack. The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Really hoping United thrash these guys . 0-3 C‘ mon UNITED
 

Pexbo

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Are his critics going to give him any credit today or is objectivity too much to ask?
 

Fortitude

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Are his critics going to give him any credit today or is objectivity too much to ask?
That’s been really grating in the matchday thread; people wanting him out so badly, they won’t give any credit where it’s due.

I feel some place their vendetta over anything else.