Do you need a defensive midfielder these days?

[TheReligion]

Football is ever evolving yet we still seem to have this obsession with shoehorning a specialist defensive midfielder into every set up we think of. Why? Because it's what we've always done. The question I pose is do we really need to and have the days of having to have a specialist defensive midfielder player, or holder, gone?

Personally I don't think you need a designated player to do this. It can be done as a unit by a midfield with high work rates and good engines.

 

[Relevated]

Oh you definitely do to bridge the gap between defence and attacking midfielders. That way the AMs can focus all their energy on attacking which increases creativity

 

[Bastian]

Doesn't Fabinho play that role for the scouse? And of course when City have everyone fit, they have Fernandinho there. Chelsea have Kante. Arsenal have Torreira, I guess.

Unless your team is extremely well balanced, I think you need that extra screen in front of the defense. A team that plays with 3 at the back might not need it.

For us, we have two really slow centre backs. We have almost no outlets to stick the ball to when we're under the cosh. I think we definitely need to address some of those issues.

 

[marktan]

The top teams do. Having a Casemiro in front of your defence that can win the ball back, start plays, help out the defence makes a huge difference.

When they're actually good on the ball too like Casemiro, Fabinho, Busquets, Fernandinho etc it helps a lot too because they can help out in attack too.

 

[red woppit]

Football is ever evolving yet we still seem to have this obsession with shoehorning a specialist defensive midfielder into every set up we think of. Why? Because it's what we've always done. The question I pose is do we really need to and have the days of having to have a specialist defensive midfielder player, or holder, gone?

Personally I don't think you need a designated player to do this. It can be done as a unit by a midfield with high work rates and good engines.

Agree, as long as those midfielders have brains, work as a unit, and know when's the right time to attack, cover, tackle etc.

 

[Infordin]

Yes you do. A top class defensive midfielder can make a world of difference.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Don't think you need 1. Could have multiple players doing those roles.
Think having just one deep playmaker makes it easier to press that player.
We have seen how teams have done it against Jorginho, Busquets etc.

You need midfielders with defensive abilities though. Can't just have players being good on the ball.

 

[Mb194dc]

Yes, one way or another, other players can cover too though.

Can't think of any successful team in teams in recent history not having specialist DM.

Even if Casemiro, Fabinho, Busquets, Fernandinho, Kante are all very different, they're key players in their teams.

Could see with RM recently, no Casemiro and they concede 4 v sociadad.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

It's one of the most influential positions, and makes a huge difference in both defense and when playing the ball out from the back. Very hard to do right, requires a special set of skills and it's not very glamorous.

In theory it could be done collectively, but I don't think it will get done as well because a specialist is always better at what they do, and because everybody's business is nobody's business. Unless the were very tactically sound, you would likely end up with each midfielder trying to get the other to do it.

 

[RedSky]

We've not had a proper one in years if not a decade and suffered from it. It's always been "It's not the United way" as a shite excuse for not having one. Its held us back to be honest.

 

[Karel Podolsky]

Yes, one way or another, other players can cover too though.

Can't think of any successful team in teams in recent history not having specialist DM.

Even if Casemiro, Fabinho, Busquets, Fernandinho, Kante are all very different, they're key players in their teams.

Could see with RM recently, no Casemiro and they concede 4 v sociadad.

Makes me think maybe City problem is not their CBs injuries but because Fernandinho is not as a DM anymore?

 

[Mettaur]

Makes me think maybe City problem is not their CBs injuries but because Fernandinho is not as a DM anymore?

When Laporte gets injured, Pep had to move Fernandinho to CB as his other options are poor. Problem is Rodri isn't as good as Fernandinho in protecting the defence.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

We've not had a proper one in years if not a decade and suffered from it. It's always been "It's not the United way" as a shite excuse for not having one. Its held us back to be honest.

Matic, Carrick, Fred etc are defensive/holding midfielders and have done well. Carrick been a key player for us for ages. Guys like Mctominay, Fletcher, Herrera are more box to box and with more attacking qualities, but very good at defending too. When Fletcher got sick we didn't really have one of those for a time. Cleverley not really good enough.

Feel like our problem has been more with more attacking midfielders/number 10. We have tried with Mata I guess, but he has not fully worked. Di Maria failed. Mkhitaryan mostly failed.
Pogba has been alright, but up and down. Rooney in midfield was never at the highest level although scored many goals playing more like a striker. Fellaini not really with the style we want to have. Kagawa never worked. Veron not a sucess either going further back. We will see if Bruno can be that guy for us. Lingard and Pereira are not the answer that is for sure.

 

[ghaliboy]

Personally I don't think you need a designated player to do this. It can be done as a unit by a midfield with high work rates and good engines.

Usually one attacking, one linking and one defending.

 

[RedSky]

Matic, Carrick, Fred etc are defensive/holding midfielders and have done well. Carrick been a key player for us for ages. Guys like Mctominay, Fletcher, Herrera are more box to box and with more attacking qualities, but very good at defending too. When Fletcher got sick we didn't really have one of those for a time. Cleverley not really good enough.

Feel like our problem has been more with more attacking midfielders/number 10. We have tried with Mata I guess, but he has not fully worked. Di Maria failed. Mkhitaryan mostly failed.
Pogba has been alright, but up and down. Rooney in midfield was never at the highest level although scored many goals playing more like a striker. Fellaini not really with the style we want to have. Kagawa never worked. Veron not a sucess either going further back. We will see if Bruno can be that guy for us. Lingard and Pereira are not the answer that is for sure.

Carrick was excellent at retaining possession and he'd shield the defense pretty well but he'd also go missing when it really mattered and he wasn't good at winning the ball back. Excellent at interceptions, mediocre at tackling. He was a playmaker playing as a DM rather than a true defensive midfielder. Fletcher was more of a DM but he only really showed 2 seasons of quality before illness got him. The others you mentioned, Matic/Fred have not done well imo, Freds had what? 4/5 months of semi decent form and Matic had a decent initial honeymoon period before he got pretty shit for us. Legs were gone. Cleverley wasn't a DM either.

We've basically not had an adequate DM since Carrick legs went back in 2016.

 

[Scroto Baggins]

In short, yes, but the role has certainly changed in the last say five years. Im not sure how or why the shift, it cannot be simply down to how great Kante is in the role. But the big strong, tough tackling DM of old is being replaced by a much smaller and more mobile harrying DM that is also comfortable on the ball. Look at say the top clubs, Chelsea - Kante, Arsenal - Torreira, Man C - Fernandinho, Liverpool Fabinho.

Ndidi is probably the best of that older school DM, along with maybe Capoue. Spurs are interesting in that they still have that large, tough tackling old school DM that doesnt offer much going forward in the likes of Dier/Wanyama. McTominay for us is growing into this role, still feel he can grow his game a lot at 23.

 

[Carl]

Football is ever evolving yet we still seem to have this obsession with shoehorning a specialist defensive midfielder into every set up we think of. Why? Because it's what we've always done. The question I pose is do we really need to and have the days of having to have a specialist defensive midfielder player, or holder, gone?

Personally I don't think you need a designated player to do this. It can be done as a unit by a midfield with high work rates and good engines.

The decline in City since the decline of Fernandinho is evidence to show just how important a world class DM can be.

 

[Ish]

I think just about every top team one can remember over the last couple decades have had a fantastic DM.

 

[pacifictheme]

Liverpools whole style of play relies on one. Its what gives the fullbacks the freedom to attack. I would say a dm has never been as important as it is now. City, real, barca and liverpool all have one and they are 4 of the best teams in the world.

 

[ivaldo]

Football is ever evolving yet we still seem to have this obsession with shoehorning a specialist defensive midfielder into every set up we think of. Why? Because it's what we've always done. The question I pose is do we really need to and have the days of having to have a specialist defensive midfielder player, or holder, gone?

Personally I don't think you need a designated player to do this. It can be done as a unit by a midfield with high work rates and good engines.

I think the days of having a player there to simply protect the back four is gone. Now, that players has to do more. They have to create, or at the very least, be the main link from the defence to the rest of the team.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

In short, yes, but the role has certainly changed in the last say five years. Im not sure how or why the shift, it cannot be simply down to how great Kante is in the role. But the big strong, tough tackling DM of old is being replaced by a much smaller and more mobile harrying DM that is also comfortable on the ball. Look at say the top clubs, Chelsea - Kante, Arsenal - Torreira, Man C - Fernandinho, Liverpool Fabinho.

Ndidi is probably the best of that older school DM, along with maybe Capoue. Spurs are interesting in that they still have that large, tough tackling old school DM that doesnt offer much going forward in the likes of Dier/Wanyama. McTominay for us is growing into this role, still feel he can grow his game a lot at 23.

Madrid have just won multiple CLs with Casemiero. Carrick and Alonso were successful in the role back then. Not much has changed. You can be successful with a Busquets or a Casemiero. Depends on how the team functions - this was the case before and it's the case now.

 

[DCP]

I think it’s more down to the fact that there is an absence of players that can do it all.

 

[Pexbo]

We've not had a proper one in years if not a decade and suffered from it. It's always been "It's not the United way" as a shite excuse for not having one. Its held us back to be honest.

Have United ever had a top class proper defensive midfielder ? I think all our best midfielders, while they might have been fantastic defensively were always more like 8s than 6s.

I think Hargreaves is probably the only one I can think of who was lauded for his defensive contribution over his attacking contribution.

 

[Neil_Buchanan]

I would go for a defensive midfielder as it gives us more options. We change our style and formation based on the opposition so it could be useful to have a sitting midfielder who would allow the other two midfielders to push forward against teams that we are struggling to break down.

He doesn't have to be an expensive superstar or future wonder kid. Just a more mobile and consistent Matic (although he has been decent recently).

 

[Adam-Utd]

Have United ever had a top class proper defensive midfielder ? I think all our best midfielders, while they might have been fantastic defensively were always more like 8s than 6s.

I think Hargreaves is probably the only one I can think of who was lauded for his defensive contribution over his attacking contribution.

Closest we’ve had is Carrick really but he wasn’t a tough tackler, more about positioning and screening. Definitely under rated.

 

[MartinRed]

Of course you do.If we had someone like prime Keane or Makelele even with the state of the current squad now,we would comfortably seat on 4th if not 3rd on the league table.That answers your question.

 

[Mark Pawelek]

If you're dropping a midfielder, drop the attacking midfielder. Unless your attacking midfielder is a class apart they're luxury.

Get a defensive midfielder who has excellent distribution and combine him with two box-to-box, one left, one right. I mean box-to-box like Pogba, Bruno Fernandes or Grealish. Not box-to-box like Fred or McTominay. Box-to-box players must present a genuine attacking threat yet be prepared to put in a defensive shift when their team defend. That'd my favoured midfield. One pivot, who can distribute and cover for any out of position players like attacking fullbacks. This is a 4-3-3; doubling as 4-1-5 when attacking.

 

[Denis' cuff]

Closest we’ve had is Carrick really but he wasn’t a tough tackler, more about positioning and screening. Definitely under rated.

Carrick was brilliant in the role but Fletch was pretty good before him. Fletch, in his early days did that job well but didn’t add to his game until past his mid 20s. Carrick didn’t really add an offensive side to his game at all but was so good in his main role and rarely lost possession. Butt was good in the role too but Keane did that role so well and took it a stage further and did the work of two men.

Seems so long ago.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Needed

 

[izec]

It is easier to have someone dedicated for that role rather than a unit, because in the unit, it has to work perfectly and you rely on more persons to be on top of their game for that role. If someone fecks up, this could lead to problems defensively in games time and time again. One player for that position is easier to implement the role and functioning.

Now the solution is not to employ a specialist DM that has no clue on the ball. A lot of people think about someone that can tackle and recover the ball etc...if you employ such a player as a DM at a top club, he must be the complete package, or close to it. Good on the ball, good passing, good positioning, good engine, good shot, good tackling and shielding, control in the midfield etc.. Look at Fabinho, Fernandinho or Casemiro, these guys are the complete package. They can play dirty, but also build up from deep and shoot from distance, as well as run with the ball. When i hear some suggestions, i have to laugh. Some on here over the last few months said that Shaw, Mensah or Wan Bissaka could be DMs for us, you have to laugh. Because the guys can defend a bit and have energy. On the ball ability, passing, shooting, running with it, positioning, decision making, behaviour under pressing, midfield control are as important, and they completely fail at it.

It is not a position usually for fullbacks or newbies, unless you are super talented and smart. It is for strategic players, intelligent ones (at least on the pitch), that can influence a game in many ways. Except for Matic, we dont have any player in our squad anywhere near close to the requirement.

 

[Bestietom]

Yes, you need a DM in front of a back 4 nowadays.

 

[sherrinford]

You do not need to have a designated player but the function is necessary. Teams require balance, and in midfield you need depth to achieve that. A player who maintains depth as their team works up the pitch provides an important passing option (to resist pressure/ change the angle of attack) or can coax an opposition player into a higher defensive position and allow more space for the player on the ball and those in advance of him to utilise.

The holding player is also then in position to delay potential counter-attacks should his team lose the ball. If anything, I would say it is more important than ever to have player(s) ‘sitting’ in midfield now due to the propensity for full backs to maintain high and wide positions on the far side of the pitch when their side is in possession, as it more often than not leaves a line of merely two defenders covering the entire width of the pitch.

Again, you don’t have to have a specific player doing this - one player occupying a holding role could seize an opportunity to join an attack, with another more advanced player recognising the vacated space and dropping in to maintain/ recover balance. This does happen, with virtually every side - just not very often during games because teams generally set up with designated holding players so they seldom look to take those opportunities. I’m really struggling to think of sides, past and present, where midfielders genuinely ‘shared’ the responsibility of holding and where there was an equal sense of ‘one goes, one stays’. Which begs the question - what has prompted this thread? Which current side is showing that you don’t need a designated holding player?

 

[bosnian_red]

Of course you do. Zidane with Madrid started off without it, struggled, put Casemiro behind Modric and Kroos and then won CL after CL.

If anything, you didnt need them in the past when we all played 442 and had 2 rounded midfielders. Now it's much more specialized and teams who have that top quality holding midfielder tend to be the best teams around. Our team will be transformed once we sign a top quality holding midfielder, someone like Carrick. Until then we'll struggle for balance and control in games.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Carrick was excellent at retaining possession and he'd shield the defense pretty well but he'd also go missing when it really mattered and he wasn't good at winning the ball back. Excellent at interceptions, mediocre at tackling. He was a playmaker playing as a DM rather than a true defensive midfielder. Fletcher was more of a DM but he only really showed 2 seasons of quality before illness got him. The others you mentioned, Matic/Fred have not done well imo, Freds had what? 4/5 months of semi decent form and Matic had a decent initial honeymoon period before he got pretty shit for us. Legs were gone. Cleverley wasn't a DM either.

We've basically not had an adequate DM since Carrick legs went back in 2016.

Carrick was good in both ways. Although not the most mobile and needed players that could help cover ground around him.
Fletcher, young Anderson, Herrera etc could do that.

I think they have done well. Depend on what you mean with well. We haven't won any titles with them, but I don't think they have individually been the problem.
Poor management and too little quality in attack has been the problem for us.
Matic is getting old, but still class. Although need players around him with more attacking qualities. Pogba have done that, but then did fall out with Mourinho and so on.
During the honeymoon of Ole it worked well even if Matic didn't look to be in peak physical form.
Fred is doing a great defensive job. A bit limited with the ball, but coaching could improve that. Lots of raw talent in him.

I don't think we are going to find many better defensive/holding midfielders than those we got. Some get overhyped like crazy, but do not really do that much.
I don't think Kante is that amazing to be honest because he is limited going forward too. I know people like to talk up their midfield, but they have not impressed me much this season.
The Pool midfielders are great, but I think part of that is Klopps coaching. I don't think they would lift us insanly much even though they are all very good players.
Rodri is pretty limited in my view. Not at Fernandinho level and Fernandinho has got old like Matic.
Ndidi is fine, but not with enough unique qualities really.
Casemiro is very good, but got lots of quality around him that hides his limited creativity.
Busquets way past it.
Pjanic a bit overrated and have not been great recently.
Bayern play Kimmich there since they got poor options for it. (he is good though, but better as right back in my view)
PSG got some good ones, but in CL they still fall apart so hard to know how they are against harder teams.

The only defensive/holding midfield package I would change ours for is Pool and possibly PSG.

 

[Bebestation]

I felt Hargreaves was a very underrated player during out CL year.

I saw the difference he made to our defensive midfield game straight away - more than any other player for United & it's confusing why people don't love that season up from him more.

Having said that, I think the defensive midfield role is evolving rather than football is evolving not to need defensive midfielders. The defensive midfielder has to have good positional ability to cover the back 2 and sometimes create a back 3 when needed. The defensive midfielder has to have good technical ability to avoid the press and make a pass to start a successful attack from deep. I'd rather we wait to get the perfect couple of CDM's than rush and get the wrong ones like we did with schneiderlin.

 

[padr81]

Yup you do, ever since Pep put Fernandinho at CB and replaced him with a statue we've been half the team.

 

[RedSky]

Carrick was good in both ways. Although not the most mobile and needed players that could help cover ground around him.
Fletcher, young Anderson, Herrera etc could do that.

I think they have done well. Depend on what you mean with well. We haven't won any titles with them, but I don't think they have individually been the problem.
Poor management and too little quality in attack has been the problem for us.
Matic is getting old, but still class. Although need players around him with more attacking qualities. Pogba have done that, but then did fall out with Mourinho and so on.
During the honeymoon of Ole it worked well even if Matic didn't look to be in peak physical form.
Fred is doing a great defensive job. A bit limited with the ball, but coaching could improve that. Lots of raw talent in him.

I don't think we are going to find many better defensive/holding midfielders than those we got. Some get overhyped like crazy, but do not really do that much.
I don't think Kante is that amazing to be honest because he is limited going forward too. I know people like to talk up their midfield, but they have not impressed me much this season.
The Pool midfielders are great, but I think part of that is Klopps coaching. I don't think they would lift us insanly much even though they are all very good players.
Rodri is pretty limited in my view. Not at Fernandinho level and Fernandinho has got old like Matic.
Ndidi is fine, but not with enough unique qualities really.
Casemiro is very good, but got lots of quality around him that hides his limited creativity.
Busquets way past it.
Pjanic a bit overrated and have not been great recently.
Bayern play Kimmich there since they got poor options for it. (he is good though, but better as right back in my view)
PSG got some good ones, but in CL they still fall apart so hard to know how they are against harder teams.

The only defensive/holding midfield package I would change ours for is Pool and possibly PSG.

You have to be mobile to be a top draw defensive midfielder which means Matic is out by default given that he can barely sprint 20 metres. Fred was abysmal for the first 6 months here, giving away possession in hideous areas of the pitch, he's managed to reduce those errors now but it's still too early to consider him top draw.

I'm going to ignore your assessment of other players because I disagree with pretty much every point. Opinions eh?

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

You have to be mobile to be a top draw defensive midfielder which means Matic is out by default given that he can barely sprint 20 metres. Fred was abysmal for the first 6 months here, giving away possession in hideous areas of the pitch, he's managed to reduce those errors now but it's still too early to consider him top draw.

I'm going to ignore your assessment of other players because I disagree with pretty much every point. Opinions eh?

Matic reads the game well though. He is still mobile enough to do a good job. He was our best player against City and good against Pool.
Those are the two best sides in the world probably.
I have never been a massive Matic fan, but he gets a bit too much stick. Mainly due to Mourinhos implosions and I would not blame him playing poorly both at Chelsea and United after that when Mourinho got the sack. Matic is not the most creative guy, but great for the team. Once he joined us we won 4-0 in half our games at the start so it is not like he is destroying the attack either.
He is far from Carrick level with the ball, but he is better in the air and stronger.
I am not sure Fred played much during the first 6 months. Didn't look good in the 3-5 games he had under Mourinho. Although noone looked good then.
Was great against PSG when he got the chance and some other games around that time.

Well we can have different options regarding these other players. Just saying it was not like Chelsea improved without Matic.
They got worse. Leicester was in midtable before Rodgers came. City with Rodri has clearly declined a lot and is much more open defensivly.
So if you claim that we are behind these sides due to our defensive midfield then I strongly disagree or that it is a major part of our problem.

With Liverpool we are worse than them in every position though so not ideal to compare. I think the only guys in our team that might get starts for them
potentially would still be Pogba and maybe Mctominay/Fred/Matic. Although with some coaching under Klopp first.

 

[Andycoleno9]

I said couple of times here when posters came with idea that Jones, Lindelof or even AWB should play that; defensive midfielder who is doing only defensive duties is history. Now defensive midfielder is basically playmaker and the heart of every team and needs to be the most complete midfielder in a team. Needs to have technique, creativity but also be good in art of defence.
Marcelo Brozovic is the one who is perfect example of defensive midfielder these days. Player who starts every attack from behind but also covering his defence.

 

[simplyared]

Oh you definitely do to bridge the gap between defence and attacking midfielders. That way the AMs can focus all their energy on attacking which increases creativity

Football is ever evolving yet we still seem to have this obsession with shoehorning a specialist defensive midfielder into every set up we think of. Why? Because it's what we've always done. The question I pose is do we really need to and have the days of having to have a specialist defensive midfielder player, or holder, gone?

Personally I don't think you need a designated player to do this. It can be done as a unit by a midfield with high work rates and good engines.

Certainly an interesting point you're making. Imv midfielders whether being defensive, box to box, central or whatever should have attacking and creative quality. They should be able to get on the score sheet and make assists. Often designating or shoehorning players into this role allows the player to "escape responsibilty." They are less exposed than their team mates. Often the role is given to players on the wrong side of 30 who lose some of their previous skills, quickness and creativity.