Again, isn't this the "consistent style and pattern of play" you're demanding
?As this guy has pointed out, isn't this the "variety" you're demanding? We have "more than one avenue of attack" right
?You're quite funny mate
Do you see the plan yet?
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? ?You're quite funny mate
I am confused who you are refering to here.Again, isn't this the "consistent style and pattern of play" you're demanding
As this guy has pointed out, isn't this the "variety" you're demanding? We have "more than one avenue of attack" right
You're quite funny mate
He is using your post to make mockery of other post. You post is something that is supporting @Strelok's point.
Fair enough. thanks.
You can’t be saying that you are disillusioned with attacks going down our right, can you? We literally haven’t possessed such attack in years.
We are still imbalanced, but far less so this campaign. Gaining some width & intent down the right actually gives us variety.
Exactly, thank you for the clarification in my absence.
In fairness to momo83, while i don't necessarily share his views, what he is trying to say, is that there has to be more variety in attacking tactics within the context of an overall strategy that is consistent.
So, if you are going to play defensive, counter-attacking football, that is the consistent strategy, and then within that, you need to have a variety of tactics, which involve more than one route of counter-attack. For example, if James is taken out of the play, is there an alternative player who can do the job of breaking free?
I’m still not sure I see it tactically yet, but we are starting to see a togetherness in the squad that we have not seen since Fergie, which goes a long way to making a top team.
b-b-b-b-but he's only done it in Norway!
Are you a believer?
Tbh the strategy is consistent. Against better teams counter attack, and lesser teams we need patterns of play.
So for example, Chelsea away we didn't use James and we scored from a cross and set piece, which is an alternative to get James away.
I would argue that we are seeing a variety in tactics as opposed to sticking to one in particular, yes injuries have dictated that but we do seem more comfortable now in varying approaches. Our last 10 games has barely seen us set up the same two games in a row, yet we’ve stayed solid at the back and been pretty good value for money in terms of entertainment.
Personally I have no issue with one route of counter attack. We were trying to hit them on their weak spot and it worked. Why stop using it and change to something else?
I get the idea of demanding more options in attacking. Of course all teams need that, not only us. But it's more down to the players available than what the coach want imho. For example you want to attack the center but you have no able dribbler or passer, you want to cross but all you have is Young, you want your right winger to cut inside but he's James. You want to do set pieces but you have Jones taking them. It just won't work despite how much you'd want to.
Most teams just have to play to the best strength of what available to them. Prior to Bruno's arrival most of our attack came from the left wing because that's our best and only option. We have no able right winger nor AM. We have no able crosser either. You can't cook a steak with just potato.
You're mistaking attacking patterns/options with a position options/ squad depth I think.
Under OGS we have done the following:
1. Cleaning out the deadwood in moving 9 first team players out (Fellaini,Lukaku,Smalling,Darmian,Young,Herrera,Valencia,Sanzhez,Rojo) already and more on their way out in the summer as Lingard and Pereira hardly have long left at United.
2. Made 5 good signings in Maguire,Fernandes,Bissaka,James and Ighalo.
3. Brought Greenwood and Williams through and more youngesters on the verge like for example Garner,Chong and Gomes as visable of them being part of the first team squad/training.
4. Clear stragety in signing young players like Mejbri,Meija,Hoogewerf,Emran and now going for Bellingham.
5. We have a batch of very promising youngsters and some of them have gotten a sniff at playing/training with the first team in Mengi,Shoretire and others.
Now let´s imagine what the team will look like with Pogba staying and Rashford back + 3 to 4 good signings like OGS has done with the previous 5? Add Sancho+Dembele(Lyon) and a DM like Partey into the squad + Bellingham and we would have a squad full of talent.
I think we are on the verge of getting back to where United should be.
OGS has had difficulty breaking down teams sitting back against us at least up until Fernandes arrived but I belive it´s just a question of bringing a high class RW like Sancho and a striker to make us more capable of doing that.
A midfield pool to choose from with McTominey,Pogba,Partey,Fred,Fernandes and attacking unit of Sancho,Martial,Rashford,Dembele,James would be sensational and most of them young and with a lot of time for further improvement.
1. Cleaning out the deadwood in moving 9 first team players out (Fellaini,Lukaku,Smalling,Darmian,Young,Herrera,Valencia,Sanzhez,Rojo) already and more on their way out in the summer as Lingard and Pereira hardly have long left at United.
2. Made 5 good signings in Maguire,Fernandes,Bissaka,James and Ighalo.
3. Brought Greenwood and Williams through and more youngesters on the verge like for example Garner,Chong and Gomes as visable of them being part of the first team squad/training.
4. Clear stragety in signing young players like Mejbri,Meija,Hoogewerf,Emran and now going for Bellingham.
5. We have a batch of very promising youngsters and some of them have gotten a sniff at playing/training with the first team in Mengi,Shoretire and others.
Now let´s imagine what the team will look like with Pogba staying and Rashford back + 3 to 4 good signings like OGS has done with the previous 5? Add Sancho+Dembele(Lyon) and a DM like Partey into the squad + Bellingham and we would have a squad full of talent.
I think we are on the verge of getting back to where United should be.
OGS has had difficulty breaking down teams sitting back against us at least up until Fernandes arrived but I belive it´s just a question of bringing a high class RW like Sancho and a striker to make us more capable of doing that.
A midfield pool to choose from with McTominey,Pogba,Partey,Fred,Fernandes and attacking unit of Sancho,Martial,Rashford,Dembele,James would be sensational and most of them young and with a lot of time for further improvement.
Ok... let’s see how the rest of the season pans outAgain, isn't this the "consistent style and pattern of play" you're demanding
As this guy has pointed out, isn't this the "variety" you're demanding? We have "more than one avenue of attack" right
You're quite funny mate
I’d say it’s also a little dependent on opportunity. Remember, Rashford, our most lethal weapon this season has yet to play with Bruno. The more quality in front of Bruno the more variety we’ll see imo. James is doing a fine job as an outlet on the vings, Rashford’s different gravy though. I’m convinced we’ll be even more fun to watch when we get Bruno, Martial, Rashford and Pogba together. Jebus! I get goosebumps just writing those names next to each other!
Maybe I’ll even give fifa 21 a chance
Exactly. I know we have struggled to break teams down but most games we have played with
Lingard, Perreira, Martial/Rashford, James, Mata
When we have all fit and potential signings we could be going in with
Rashford, Martial, New Rw, Bruno, Pogba, Greenwood, James.
That is a big difference.
I'm unfortunately not including Pogba in my vision of the future for United.
One of the things that has impressed me greatly is, the players look like a team. They fight for, and cover eachother with a togetherness that I haven't seen since the great man retired.
Pogba, as talented as he is, always seemed to play for Pogba.
In the big games, he often let us down by trying to show he was the main man.
I don't think that motivation is conducive to how this team has developed in his absence.
I hope he can rectify that, because if it worked, it could be something really special.
One of the things that has impressed me greatly is, the players look like a team. They fight for, and cover eachother with a togetherness that I haven't seen since the great man retired.
Pogba, as talented as he is, always seemed to play for Pogba.
In the big games, he often let us down by trying to show he was the main man.
I don't think that motivation is conducive to how this team has developed in his absence.
I hope he can rectify that, because if it worked, it could be something really special.
Very different spirit in the team when you look at how they all celebrate together.
Yeah like I said I don't necessarily agree with him, I was just trying to help him get his point across. But tbf again, scoring from a set-piece can't be used as evidence of the existence of a different tactic, since you can never be sure you are going to get a set-piece unless you send yur players out with instructions to dive at the slightest touch. The set piece against Chelsea goes down to pure luck, and on-the-spur inventiveness.
Yeah I would agree with this. Like I said I don't necessarily agree with the other poster, I was just trying to help him make his point.
I don't agree with that. Teams these days are prepared for opponents and their different varieties of attack. How many important games over the years have been won by set pieces? How many titles?
Look at Liverpool this season, they are so dangerous from set pieces which is part of their attack.
So you think that set piece was on the spur? I don't think so, it was definitely worked on in training, which again points to the coach trying to work on different ways of scoring?
Ole confirmed after the match it was a routine from training.
It is so annoying when we don't score from set pieces fans are here questioning what they do in training. It looked like that in Sept / October.
But when we do something from the training ground, credit should be due to the coach instead of calling it a lucky of the cuff routine.
So quick to criticise the manager, but never compliment.
But Lingard is one of the best no.10's in Europe isn't he?
It's becoming clear that our patterns of play are improving because we have some quality and creativity through Bruno now. It's not just his quality though, players like Martial and Mata have benefited because they are on the same wavelength and he picks up their runs. A big problem before was that our attackers would stop running because no-one was finding them and then our whole play breaks down because there is no movement - amazing what one player can do!
As some other posters have alluded to, I think Ole has done a great job regarding recruitment and team spirit, but I don't yet know what he is trying to build in terms of playing style. I suspect some of the reliance upon playing on the counter against the better teams is simply pragmatism due to having a less established midfield, and playing to the few relative strengths we've had, namely, pace up top.
In recent years Real Madrid have arguably lacked a well defined playing style. They've had a balanced team and squad, but seem to have relied rather often on individual talent and the fact that their goals can come from anywhere. Against better teams like the current Liverpool, Man City and reset Barcas they'll come out second best 75% of the time. (the three CLs in a row in my opinion were evidence of this and huge slices of luck).
I wonder if this type of 'balanced' team is what Ole is aiming for, or is he working towards something more specific.
In recent years Real Madrid have arguably lacked a well defined playing style. They've had a balanced team and squad, but seem to have relied rather often on individual talent and the fact that their goals can come from anywhere. Against better teams like the current Liverpool, Man City and reset Barcas they'll come out second best 75% of the time. (the three CLs in a row in my opinion were evidence of this and huge slices of luck).
I wonder if this type of 'balanced' team is what Ole is aiming for, or is he working towards something more specific.
All your points are correct. Just to add my 2 cents, this is the first time since SAF, we are united. Despite all the hardship, all players are always playing for him (except someone line Lingard or Pogba, but they may be gone soon). We all know that leadership and ambition won't come from our board, so it's really important that we have a manager who can lead and want the best for Man UTD.
At least most of the players seem to be pulling in the same direction and are not downing tools. Bruno was brought in to fix a problem that was apparent before the season started. What will the management do when the opposition starts marking him like they did with PP last season? Also, OGS has not fixed our problem with attacking against a balanced defence, the club has bought a player that can pass and move and understand how to play in the final third. We have seen Bruno pointing to players regarding where to move and pass.
OGS or the club or both was "not interested" during the summer. If the plan is to buy players that will mitigate the lack of coaching and tactical competence on how to attack against a balanced defence or being more efficent, then yes I see the plan.
And we have only had higher expected goals tally against Watford and City among the last 5 league games(however these two games were impressive). I don't think there is any tactical or performance-related evidence to suggest that there has been a significant improvement in our attacking play compared to the first half of the season or since we signed Bruno other than us being more efficient in both ends.
Since Bruno came in in the EPL (Season as a whole)
7th in expected points (4th)
5th in expected goals against (3rd)
10th in expected goals (4th)
12th in expected goals without penalties (7th)
Not that Bruno has made us worse in any way, but the data suggest that we have not suddenly become a different team, only more efficient. Ideally, being more efficient is a sign of a great shot-stopper/centrebacks better at blocking/shielding goal and great finishers over time. Short term it can be down to coincidence and lucky/unlucky.
If the rest of the team showed the same efficiency in front of goal as Bruno and Martial(efficient since his first day at the club compared to the expected goals and Rashford), fighting for 4th would not have been a question.
OGS or the club or both was "not interested" during the summer. If the plan is to buy players that will mitigate the lack of coaching and tactical competence on how to attack against a balanced defence or being more efficent, then yes I see the plan.
And we have only had higher expected goals tally against Watford and City among the last 5 league games(however these two games were impressive). I don't think there is any tactical or performance-related evidence to suggest that there has been a significant improvement in our attacking play compared to the first half of the season or since we signed Bruno other than us being more efficient in both ends.
Since Bruno came in in the EPL (Season as a whole)
7th in expected points (4th)
5th in expected goals against (3rd)
10th in expected goals (4th)
12th in expected goals without penalties (7th)
Not that Bruno has made us worse in any way, but the data suggest that we have not suddenly become a different team, only more efficient. Ideally, being more efficient is a sign of a great shot-stopper/centrebacks better at blocking/shielding goal and great finishers over time. Short term it can be down to coincidence and lucky/unlucky.
If the rest of the team showed the same efficiency in front of goal as Bruno and Martial(efficient since his first day at the club compared to the expected goals and Rashford), fighting for 4th would not have been a question.
In terms of playing style not entirely but as the team improves and the necessary quality is added (for instance this summer if we sign 2-3 top players) then maybe it will be clearer to see. It still appears we sort of adapt depending on our opponent as opposed to just having our own game. The signing of Bruno has given us a quality player with a great mindset that's also very creative so we've added an entirely new dimension over night and seem to have gone from a mediocre/crap side to a good/potentially very good one.
I think Ole has actually done excellent work all things considered. When he took over it was well and truly doom and gloom. A bunch of players that weren't good enough and/or simply didn't want to be at the club. It was a demoralized and beaten up squad and I think we looked like a club nobody would really want to join. He shifted the attitude and seemed to give the fans a lift, the players a more positive outlook and a great team spirit. He's actually been pretty ruthless too as he's gotten rid of deadwood and put faith in youth to fill in certain roles in the squad. The players are playing for one another. He's also signed well. Very well. Maguire, AWB, Bruno is three massive upgrades in what were three of the weakest positions. He clearly knows the profile and mentality of what is expected of a Manchester United player. Also the work bringing in top class youth shows consistency with what he's been doing so far.
If we get top 4 and keep going in the cups he's earned a stay IMO and with his transfer record you'd have to trust he'll fill in two or three positions (he said he knows we are a couple of players away) and then maybe his style would be clearer and more defined.
I think Ole has actually done excellent work all things considered. When he took over it was well and truly doom and gloom. A bunch of players that weren't good enough and/or simply didn't want to be at the club. It was a demoralized and beaten up squad and I think we looked like a club nobody would really want to join. He shifted the attitude and seemed to give the fans a lift, the players a more positive outlook and a great team spirit. He's actually been pretty ruthless too as he's gotten rid of deadwood and put faith in youth to fill in certain roles in the squad. The players are playing for one another. He's also signed well. Very well. Maguire, AWB, Bruno is three massive upgrades in what were three of the weakest positions. He clearly knows the profile and mentality of what is expected of a Manchester United player. Also the work bringing in top class youth shows consistency with what he's been doing so far.
If we get top 4 and keep going in the cups he's earned a stay IMO and with his transfer record you'd have to trust he'll fill in two or three positions (he said he knows we are a couple of players away) and then maybe his style would be clearer and more defined.
Without even trying to debate whether you are right or wrong, it's amazing how the two points you make in this short post visit each other.
Edit: just realised after scrolling down that many offer posters pointed out the same thing!
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I think the plan was to get the team playing good, exciting football, but only once we have the right players in the team.
We didnt have the right ball playing CB, any hard working centre midfielders, a few creative players or attackers who can be relied on for 15-20 goals per season.
We literally have that now!
So many managers come into a new club and think their philosophy is perfect and they try and implement it with the group of players available. The correct thing to do is adapt the style of play that suits the group of players. Remember Pep Guardiolas first season at City and they had Sagna, Cliche, Kolarov and Zabaleta as full backs? City scraped 4th place and were very average. He would have done so much better if he had played a slightly more conservative style to suit the group.
Ole has done just that and rightly so. We have seen our style transition a few times. Now we have Bruno in the team, we are playing the high press more, and are actually getting runners in behind as Ole trusts Bruno to find them. Don't forget he has also got rid of any player who doesn't want to give there all or haven't been performing and has replaced them with quality players. (Only Lingard, Rojo and Andreas left to shift).
Our best starting 11 when fit is very good. In my opinion we are just lacking quality in depth now. Ole has been vocal recently about this too. Oles plan is so much more visible to me now.
We didnt have the right ball playing CB, any hard working centre midfielders, a few creative players or attackers who can be relied on for 15-20 goals per season.
We literally have that now!
So many managers come into a new club and think their philosophy is perfect and they try and implement it with the group of players available. The correct thing to do is adapt the style of play that suits the group of players. Remember Pep Guardiolas first season at City and they had Sagna, Cliche, Kolarov and Zabaleta as full backs? City scraped 4th place and were very average. He would have done so much better if he had played a slightly more conservative style to suit the group.
Ole has done just that and rightly so. We have seen our style transition a few times. Now we have Bruno in the team, we are playing the high press more, and are actually getting runners in behind as Ole trusts Bruno to find them. Don't forget he has also got rid of any player who doesn't want to give there all or haven't been performing and has replaced them with quality players. (Only Lingard, Rojo and Andreas left to shift).
Our best starting 11 when fit is very good. In my opinion we are just lacking quality in depth now. Ole has been vocal recently about this too. Oles plan is so much more visible to me now.
It's extremely clear that our preferred style of play is through the wings with the midfield supporting. Against smaller teams we tend to play through the center more and against bigger teams we exploit the flanks on the counter.
Those who've worked under solskjaer all say the same thing, his preferred coaching method is that he allows more freedom than the usual coach. This allows players to express themselves, however for this we need good players to see results - that's what we're getting now.
Those who've worked under solskjaer all say the same thing, his preferred coaching method is that he allows more freedom than the usual coach. This allows players to express themselves, however for this we need good players to see results - that's what we're getting now.
Not creating more chances, nor allowing less over the last 5 games in the EPL. We are more efficient --> DDG performing better and Bruno + Martial being efficient.
I agree that having an approach based on freedom in the attacking play works better with Bruno compared to Lingard/Pereira, but there should still be some coaching regarding when you play the less able players.
You can’t polish a turd. Some players aren’t good enough and need to be sold, that’s the bottom line.
There’s the obsession on here that you’re not a good coach if you can’t get Lingard to play like Messi. Some players are just absolutely shit, and despite putting in the same hours as everyone else on the training ground, don’t seem to improve.
Do we want Solskjaer to have to spend more time getting Lingard to play better or would we rather him focus on getting the players that actually put the effort in playing well? Time is finite and there’s a cutoff point where the responsibility becomes the player, not the coach.
Lingard is so bad when on the ball that it is difficult to do anything useful, still noone thinks that making Lingard into Messi is possible. But Pereira would be a better example. He can pass and his technique is not bad, only that his pass selection is horrible (same as with Shaw, James and AWB). This is coachable.
If you have the basic level on the ball etc, then they can be coached or directed to be useful. James is coached to position himself wide and take advantage of his pace. More technical able players like Pereira are lost on the pitch due to not having any coaching or plan on how to pass or transition into the final third against a balanced defence.
I must disagree with this. Sorry but you seem to don't understand a thing about football at all. And seem to never ever play football either.
It's not that a coach tell you "hey in this situation A you need to do this" then come the situation, you receive the ball, you look around and think well this is situtation A. You remember his words and do what he told you. It's not that easy. There's no time for all that. By the time you realise "this is situation A" you probably lost the ball already, or the situation A has changed to situation X. Football and especially professional football is so fast that basically all you do is instinctively. Especially as a midfielder.
Professional footballer like Pereira has been training from age 7 at least. They do their exercises, their routines probably a million times. Countless matches, countless tactical sessions. Why only a few make it? Why Usain Bolt can't play football? It's because some have it and most don't. The football instinct. The awareness. Know what to do instinctively and immediately.
Me for example, I'm an amateur striker, a bad one tbh. Whenever I have the ball 20 yards away from the goal I can't hear shit and only able to see the goal and the keeper. My mates have relentlessly been telling me "You asshole, look up and pass, don't shoot all the time you idiot". Nothing changed. And I really did want to change. I just can't. It's been 20 years.
Pereira is average because he's average, no coaching in this world could make him becomes Bruno. He's 24 already. 99 % this is the best we can see from him.
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It is not a Situation A = do this. But there is a difference between total freedom and some directions on how to play.
I.e: Luke Shaw gets the ball around halfway up the field. Should he
A: Run forward into and into the space given and subsequently pressed from being and forced to either get a throw-in or lose the ball or playing a high risk ball?
B: Evaluate before running with the ball into space and maybe circulate the ball to the other side and hoping for a better opportunity to transition the ball through their first line of pressure?
How many times this season have we seen A from both him and AWB? Or over the last 2 seasons from our fullbacks?
If you have a set of basic principles and then being allowed to deviate from this instinctively, it would make "instinctively limited" players like Pereira more useful. The less experience, understanding of the game etc the more need for external control or guidelines.
It can often make for an open and interesting game of football, especially if you send enough men forward. If you have the quality in attack it will help tip the scale in your favour. We haven't had that consistent quality upfront since RVP, and we've always been reserved sending men forward post SAF. I think imprinting a change here is important and the right thing to do, it give me the United-feeling when we crowd the area in our hunt for goals. However, getting the balance right is vital. The last game of the season against Cardiff can serve as an example, as well as his stint at Cardiff. It wont work without enough quality and if you don't have enough quality players to work with it's incredibly hard to motivate those players when they know they don't possess the required quality. Ole is always seen praising the level of his players in interviews, even if it's not totally accurate and at Man Utd, we have a standard and as long as Ole and the coaches persist in maintaining that standard then his tactics stand a chance, imo.
The adjustments made to the gung-ho tactic to preserve possession stats against teams who sat back didn't really materialise fully because while we created chances, with our approach and lack of quality, we simply needed to make even more chances. A risk which could have led to creating a dangerous imbalance in the team. You can risk losing the game if you desperately go for the win which I think was Ole's weak point as a manager, but I've been pleasantly surprised with how mature his management seems even if it hasn't been flawless. It has been slow and inconsistent this season but we never crumbled, more like a calculated balancing act. Setting us up to take advantage of the quality we have is a powerful thing when it works, and when we do have the quality. The upswing in form after Bruno's arrival shows how vital quality can be to fulfil certain tactics.
You think Ole or the coaches didn't see that if you or I can see that? And if they can see that would they tell him to get it right next time? Then why he repeat the same mistake again and again? It's because instinctively it's what he's gonna do in a situation like that.
Frankly I find it really hard to explain all that to you but in a real match there's no time to think at all tbh. Things just happen so fast you have no time to think you just do it instinctively or you have some "condition" like what happen to me. I start to can not hear shit and my vision becomes a horse one once I got the ball 20 yards away from the goal.
I'm no professional footballer but it's probably why we all see some players keep making the same stupid decision again and again.
Good post. This is also exactly what has pointed to as his downfall at Cardiff. The football he wants to play depends on having players with certain qualities and a certain mindset. Cardiff and Ole was just an incredible bad match.