I take it people who liked LVG, Moyes and Jose didn't watch the games, bored out of my mind most of the time.
Do you see the plan yet?
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Ole, like most managers/head coaches, would have given the board a list of players required by him, and it is up to the board to go out and make those signings. How you can blame him for not investing is beyond me, you, like the rest of us, can only make assumptions on something we really know nothing about, so to accuse one man (I assume your an Ole outer, so you probably wouldn't change your mind anyway) without any hard evidence is ridiculous. I think he is investing in our own youth products, but obviously you mean going outside the club to purchase players. Have you read Tara Fergie? I suggest you have a look if you think 12 months is plenty of time.
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We actually didn't lose to Sheffield United, but I take your point. To me, the biggest mistake was starting with three at the back, far more than Tuanzebe /Martial sub. Don't forget that Martial had just come back from injury, so was possibly always going to be subbed off.
Let's not get carried away from what we have seen in the last couple of games. Although being a United fan since I've known football, it was the most lovely feeling beating the likes of Jose and City (Pep). We still cannot break teams that sit tight in their own half but i'm thinking Pogba is the guy to unlock those tight defenses. Adding Haaland, Sancho and perhaps Maddison to this United team will help them a huge deal. Sancho and Maddison can step straight into the playing XI but Haaland will and should play backup for Martial for sometime. Although i'm sure injuries and the number of games we play in a season will help him play a lot. I can see us making the top 4 and winning the Europa for the second time but all this will only be confirmed if we manage to go on a run from now until the start of the new year.
Obviously the last 2 wins are lovely, but I'm not convinced we learned anything new. If you allow our front 3 space on the counter we're very good. And we've been a bit unlucky with some goals conceded, whereas things fell our way against City.
Before that, I saw painfully little in terms of coaching. Our attacks were patternless and our defense concedes chances from being disorganized.
So Oles bought a couple more weeks, but let's see how the weekend goes before claiming to
have turned any corners.
Before that, I saw painfully little in terms of coaching. Our attacks were patternless and our defense concedes chances from being disorganized.
So Oles bought a couple more weeks, but let's see how the weekend goes before claiming to
have turned any corners.
If I remember the game correctly your team was pretty suicidal against us. Fair play for trying and all but the space left to attack was great for us. Norwich were the same.
I’m pretty confident United can beat just about anyone provided the oppo team plays a certain way.
Agreed, especially with that last part. We seem to have gotten past the "one goal per match" thing now. And if we can keep Spurs and City from scoring multiple goals, surely we can do the same to lesser offensive units.
I've always thought you should "dance with the one who brung ya." In American football, I hate nothing more than a team getting a lead, then offensively trying to wind down the clock with the run game and going into the so-called "prevent defense," only to give up exactly what it's supposed to prevent (the big play) and lose the game. If you have a team capable of scoring, the best defense is a good offense. A two-goal lead gives you something your defense cannot - wiggle room to get those three points.
A little summary of the matches in the PL so far this season:
With Pogba:
Chelsea (H) 4-0 We created just 9 chances and struggled to get into the match. Then we scored and rolled over them after that.
Wolves (A) 1-1 We struggled to create chances (5), but dominated the match and missed a pen.
Palace (H) 1-2 We completely dominated the match, created lots of chances (15) and missed a pen on 1-1. We got robbed of 3 points
So'ton (A) 1-1 Another match we completely dominate, created a ton of chances (18), but couldn't find the back of the net to save our lives. Another robbery here.
Apart from the Wolves match we actually played some nice fluid attacking football, but failed to convert our chances.
Martial and Pogba out, Rashy up front and Matic in.
- Leicester (H) 1-0 Both teams tight in defense, neither creating any chances (6 chances for us) and we score a pen.
- West Ham (A) 2-0 We struggle to create good chances (8), they score on 2 of their 5 chances, but we didn't look like scoring that day to be honest.
In this period we struggled to create chance from open play, especially with Matic in the CM, Lingaard in as #10, Pereira our wide and Rashy as #9.
Pogba in and Matic out.
- Arsenal (H) 1-1 Pogba is back for a match and we create a little more chances (11), we are the better team, and we let Auba score a blooper-goal.
An ok match, a little sub par. Some tendencies look good and we did create a few chances from open play.
Pogba out Fred in.
- Newcastle (A) 1-0 We did create some chances (11), but still didn't look very dangerous. We had the ball a lot, but still managed to give away a few dangerous opportunities. An even match against a weaker team, but I guess a deserved loss.
- Liverpool (H) 1-1 We see the Fred/Mctom connection bear fruits. We play a counterattacking 3-5-2 and it is played almost to perfection. Great performance and effort, without Pogba and Martial. We created only 7 chances, but looked dangerous every time.
Martial back in and Rashy back in the LW position.
- Norwich (A) 3-1 Bossed it, looked dangerous all the time, Fred/McTominay looking great, the front three looking great. Created 12 chances. Good game.
Beat Chelsea 2-1 in the league-cup, McTom and Fred looking better and better together.
- B'mouth (A) 1-0 Set back! We created 14! chances, but just couldn't find the back of the net. Steve Cook with the performance of his life and they score the one goal they need to win it.
Fred and McTominay still looked good in this match.
- Brighton (H) 3-1 Great performance! 17 chances created, didn't get scared when they got back to 2-1 and killed it instantly with brilliant direct attacking football. Fred showed that he does have a couple of creative bones in him as well, with some fantastic vertical passes.
Even though we lost to Bournemouth you could easily see that there was a change in our play. With Rashford back as LW and Martial back from injury we created tons of chances and looked more dangerous. Pereira looked better in the #10 role we generally linked up better than earlier in the season. Clear progress.
McTom out Pereira in as CM
- SU (A) 3-3 Looked like a slaugther for 65 minutes. Them slaughtering us. We started out in a 3-4-2-1, but we got run over all over the place, struggled to create (1 chance in the 1st half), got bullied physically and lost the ball in dangerous areas more than once. Once we changed to 4-2-3-1 and 4-2-3-1 we took over and had a crazy period where we were all over them and scored 3. Conceded a late goal after a personal error and changing back to 4-2-3-1 (I would have done the same substitution and formation change. Continuing with 4-2-4 didn't make sense) Totally we created 9 chances. I pin this one on underestimating the physical strength of SU, giving them to much room in the first half and having to use Pereira as CM, Jones in the back (he was way to rusty for this task) and Williams who has some weaknesses defensively.
- AV (H) 2-2 Back to 4-3-3 and creating more chances again (11), but not as many as I would wish for. Pereira struggling in the CM position again, Fred also suffering from it. They score a worldie, and we manage to get back in the lead again. Concede the equalizer after another horrible personal error. We were the better team and should have won, but we look very shaky with Pereira in the centre of the pitch.
McTom back in as CM, Pereira out.
Spurs and City matches tactically perfect, Fred and McTom looks fantastic together, and our attackers look lethal on the counters.
My take on it:
Midfield 2
- McTom and Pogba started out by struggling a bit on, but formed a good partnership over the first few matches despite not getting the good results. Could be a an alternative when Pogba gets back.
- Fred and McTom has formed a very good partnership over the last couple of months. Defensively secure and better and better offensively as well. Clear progress! Should be the #1 duo for midfield.
- All other comboes has looked weaker.
The #10 role
Both Pereira and Lingaard has done ok here, at least the last couple of months. Both have some grown in this role, but there is still a lot to be desired. I would love to give Pogba a chance in this position. Mata has declined unfortunately and is a little too slow.
The front 3
Rashy LW - Martial CF - James as RW
Has looked very good lately. Greenwood has also shown glimpses of great potential. The progress in these three has been very clear. Rashford is turning into a world class LW.
The defense
AWB is probably the best RB in the league defensively. Hopefully he can improve his attacking contribution. Maguire looking good. Lindelof looking a lot better the last couple of matches. Shaw back from injury is good, he is by far our best LB defensively and is in my opinion underrated going forward (He is no Robertson, but still). Williams should get some chances against weaker teams where we can make use of his offensive qualities, which has impressed me.
De Gea - A good season so far.
I would like to see this lineup against weaker teams defending deep:
DDG
AWB-Lindelof-Maguire-Williams
McTom-Fred
James-Pogba-Rashy
Martial
...and this one against teams that will attack us more:
DDG
AWB-Lindelof-Maguire-Shaw
McTom-Fred-Pogba
James-Martial-Rashy
In general I think we see a plan of implementing attractive direct attacking football, with high pressing and diciplined defending. In my opinion we are closer to implementing this on our game than at the start of the season, and I see clear progress. With a young squad there will always be some inconsistency in the performances, but with some continuity with our best players injuryfree I think we will hurt most of our opponents bad.
Depending on the January window and what it brings it's hard to say too much of the rebuild-plan. I do think and hope there is a plan to strengthen our midfield and attack though. And I can see us being aggressive in the next 2 windows. If we get 1 or 2 good signings in January and 2 good signings in the summer, I believe we will take some serious steps up both in consistency and in quality in our performances as well as the results.
The future actually looks bright!
With Pogba:
Chelsea (H) 4-0 We created just 9 chances and struggled to get into the match. Then we scored and rolled over them after that.
Wolves (A) 1-1 We struggled to create chances (5), but dominated the match and missed a pen.
Palace (H) 1-2 We completely dominated the match, created lots of chances (15) and missed a pen on 1-1. We got robbed of 3 points
So'ton (A) 1-1 Another match we completely dominate, created a ton of chances (18), but couldn't find the back of the net to save our lives. Another robbery here.
Apart from the Wolves match we actually played some nice fluid attacking football, but failed to convert our chances.
Martial and Pogba out, Rashy up front and Matic in.
- Leicester (H) 1-0 Both teams tight in defense, neither creating any chances (6 chances for us) and we score a pen.
- West Ham (A) 2-0 We struggle to create good chances (8), they score on 2 of their 5 chances, but we didn't look like scoring that day to be honest.
In this period we struggled to create chance from open play, especially with Matic in the CM, Lingaard in as #10, Pereira our wide and Rashy as #9.
Pogba in and Matic out.
- Arsenal (H) 1-1 Pogba is back for a match and we create a little more chances (11), we are the better team, and we let Auba score a blooper-goal.
An ok match, a little sub par. Some tendencies look good and we did create a few chances from open play.
Pogba out Fred in.
- Newcastle (A) 1-0 We did create some chances (11), but still didn't look very dangerous. We had the ball a lot, but still managed to give away a few dangerous opportunities. An even match against a weaker team, but I guess a deserved loss.
- Liverpool (H) 1-1 We see the Fred/Mctom connection bear fruits. We play a counterattacking 3-5-2 and it is played almost to perfection. Great performance and effort, without Pogba and Martial. We created only 7 chances, but looked dangerous every time.
Martial back in and Rashy back in the LW position.
- Norwich (A) 3-1 Bossed it, looked dangerous all the time, Fred/McTominay looking great, the front three looking great. Created 12 chances. Good game.
Beat Chelsea 2-1 in the league-cup, McTom and Fred looking better and better together.
- B'mouth (A) 1-0 Set back! We created 14! chances, but just couldn't find the back of the net. Steve Cook with the performance of his life and they score the one goal they need to win it.
Fred and McTominay still looked good in this match.
- Brighton (H) 3-1 Great performance! 17 chances created, didn't get scared when they got back to 2-1 and killed it instantly with brilliant direct attacking football. Fred showed that he does have a couple of creative bones in him as well, with some fantastic vertical passes.
Even though we lost to Bournemouth you could easily see that there was a change in our play. With Rashford back as LW and Martial back from injury we created tons of chances and looked more dangerous. Pereira looked better in the #10 role we generally linked up better than earlier in the season. Clear progress.
McTom out Pereira in as CM
- SU (A) 3-3 Looked like a slaugther for 65 minutes. Them slaughtering us. We started out in a 3-4-2-1, but we got run over all over the place, struggled to create (1 chance in the 1st half), got bullied physically and lost the ball in dangerous areas more than once. Once we changed to 4-2-3-1 and 4-2-3-1 we took over and had a crazy period where we were all over them and scored 3. Conceded a late goal after a personal error and changing back to 4-2-3-1 (I would have done the same substitution and formation change. Continuing with 4-2-4 didn't make sense) Totally we created 9 chances. I pin this one on underestimating the physical strength of SU, giving them to much room in the first half and having to use Pereira as CM, Jones in the back (he was way to rusty for this task) and Williams who has some weaknesses defensively.
- AV (H) 2-2 Back to 4-3-3 and creating more chances again (11), but not as many as I would wish for. Pereira struggling in the CM position again, Fred also suffering from it. They score a worldie, and we manage to get back in the lead again. Concede the equalizer after another horrible personal error. We were the better team and should have won, but we look very shaky with Pereira in the centre of the pitch.
McTom back in as CM, Pereira out.
Spurs and City matches tactically perfect, Fred and McTom looks fantastic together, and our attackers look lethal on the counters.
My take on it:
Midfield 2
- McTom and Pogba started out by struggling a bit on, but formed a good partnership over the first few matches despite not getting the good results. Could be a an alternative when Pogba gets back.
- Fred and McTom has formed a very good partnership over the last couple of months. Defensively secure and better and better offensively as well. Clear progress! Should be the #1 duo for midfield.
- All other comboes has looked weaker.
The #10 role
Both Pereira and Lingaard has done ok here, at least the last couple of months. Both have some grown in this role, but there is still a lot to be desired. I would love to give Pogba a chance in this position. Mata has declined unfortunately and is a little too slow.
The front 3
Rashy LW - Martial CF - James as RW
Has looked very good lately. Greenwood has also shown glimpses of great potential. The progress in these three has been very clear. Rashford is turning into a world class LW.
The defense
AWB is probably the best RB in the league defensively. Hopefully he can improve his attacking contribution. Maguire looking good. Lindelof looking a lot better the last couple of matches. Shaw back from injury is good, he is by far our best LB defensively and is in my opinion underrated going forward (He is no Robertson, but still). Williams should get some chances against weaker teams where we can make use of his offensive qualities, which has impressed me.
De Gea - A good season so far.
I would like to see this lineup against weaker teams defending deep:
DDG
AWB-Lindelof-Maguire-Williams
McTom-Fred
James-Pogba-Rashy
Martial
...and this one against teams that will attack us more:
DDG
AWB-Lindelof-Maguire-Shaw
McTom-Fred-Pogba
James-Martial-Rashy
In general I think we see a plan of implementing attractive direct attacking football, with high pressing and diciplined defending. In my opinion we are closer to implementing this on our game than at the start of the season, and I see clear progress. With a young squad there will always be some inconsistency in the performances, but with some continuity with our best players injuryfree I think we will hurt most of our opponents bad.
Depending on the January window and what it brings it's hard to say too much of the rebuild-plan. I do think and hope there is a plan to strengthen our midfield and attack though. And I can see us being aggressive in the next 2 windows. If we get 1 or 2 good signings in January and 2 good signings in the summer, I believe we will take some serious steps up both in consistency and in quality in our performances as well as the results.
The future actually looks bright!
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Only because we've moved to one penalty per match.
Excellent. Well done for highlighting the fact that we have not been as bad as some people make out. I don't think we had a pen v Southampton if my memory serves me well? I do remember both Mata and Maguire having good chances v West Ham. To be honest, we really haven't missed Pogba as much as I thought, but personally, I really do think he will be off soon, and if rumours are right, Saul Niquez is the replacement, not sure about that one, but we do need at least one midfielder and one striker in the January window.
Firstly, I am not a Ole outer but again not against it. I see myself sitting on the fence more than anything else. One week he annoys me the next he frustrates me. Ole came out and said he chose not to spend in the summer, i think he missed the opportunity to replace a striker and a midfielder. Whether it is true or not, i go by the information that has come out of his mouth. As for youth, we were made to believe we had 3 or 4 great players coming through. Only Greenwood has really been given any consistency (if 10 mins a game is the definition). Brandon had a few games down to injuries and Chong and Gomes near frozen out. Why not loan them out? There are a lot of things I think Ole could have done different. I still back him as he is still our manager, i hope he does well but it does not mean i cannot have my opinion. I guess you are a hard core Ole in, difficult to really reason with.
Nope, dont see it. We're just really dangerous on the counter and the big sides play right into our hands. Sadly the league isnt won by a team that can play one way.
We've got a few good players who fit that way of play. Give the squad to a tactical mastermind like Allegri with our pace on the counter and we're on to a winner.
We've got a few good players who fit that way of play. Give the squad to a tactical mastermind like Allegri with our pace on the counter and we're on to a winner.
I see it just fine.
If ever a game showed the problem though it is tonight. There are so many players in this team who for one reason or another are incapable of doing the most basic parts of their job.
Matic, Mata, Young, Pereira...plus inexperienced players like Williams and Garner who don't really look ready for the first team in any meaningful way. The problem is that these players are all 1 injury away from being IN the first team. Apart from Garner all of them have been at some point.
Mata and Matic in particular are so bad I think it's perfe toy fair to criticise Ole for considering them at all in any game. You are telling the rest of the squad that you have no standards.
If ever a game showed the problem though it is tonight. There are so many players in this team who for one reason or another are incapable of doing the most basic parts of their job.
Matic, Mata, Young, Pereira...plus inexperienced players like Williams and Garner who don't really look ready for the first team in any meaningful way. The problem is that these players are all 1 injury away from being IN the first team. Apart from Garner all of them have been at some point.
Mata and Matic in particular are so bad I think it's perfe toy fair to criticise Ole for considering them at all in any game. You are telling the rest of the squad that you have no standards.
This is the whole problem with our season. Our squad is fecking pathetic outside of the first 11. Yet people wonder why we can't put consistent runs of games together. It's not realistic with this group.
We badly need signings.
Clueless
Yeah, this is the thing that I keep thinking here. Are we a great team? No, not there yet but at least we are not dying of boredom from shite football for months on end. I think people just keep forgetting to fast how atrocious we looked from 90% of the time under all those managers that came before Ole. He is the first time I would attest of having made some progress and yes we made a couple of steps back in between but the current trend is definitely positive and all that while mainly making use of young players and getting rid of a lot of the dead wood despite not having sold some of them (Matic/Rojo/Jones).
But I am as positive about this club as I haven't been for a long while because there seems to be a clear plan at work these days.
That’s the problem with these kids on here, they think the be all and end all of football is.. whatever Klopp and Guardiola do.
Indeed.
Or maybe it's a disagreement as to what's sustainable long term and what isn't. Also you should read the comment as he mentions Allegri who tactically on a different spectrum than either Klopp or Guardiola.
In that case, people really have short memories don’t they.
There's no question those players mentioned shouldn't be at the club. But neither should a manager who knows one style of play and isn't capable of instilling any other type of tactical plan.
You deserve a Blue Peter badge for carrying on the fight. Some people can only see things through a pinhole.
That is your takeaway after the last three games and winning the group in EL?
I confess I've had to put half the cafe on ignore over the last while to make the place bearable. It's tough going these days. I'll undo it when people settle down a bit.
Oh, common Noodle. It's not like Matic is even getting much of a sniff at the first team anymore and Mata basically only plays in games where we would usually consider playing a couple of youngsters.
Are we short of quality still? Yes, but as you pointed out a lot of that lack of quality was accumulated before Ole even started his tenure with us. It will take time for the younger, but clearly talented bunch to gain experience and to sort out the last couple of dead wood players that are still at the club, it's not like there is a row of teams waiting ot take them off our hands.
Pereira is a tricky situation, because with Pogba unavailable we basically have Lingard as an alternative and I really can't decide who is wasting space in the squad more but those are things we need to fix in the next couple of transfer windows unless we have another talent waiting to break into the squad. I think by saying player X/Y should never get a sniff at the team again you are simplifying the problem too much. Despite all the money we spent our team is still in a dire state and it's not like Ole is willingly leaving amazing talent out to play Mata, Pereira or Lingard.
They will be back on the matchday threads.
City and Spurs were both great performances and United showed how dangerous we can be when given space but today showed showed the other side of that spectrum and how bad we can be against teams that won't give us that. Today's result was great but it's not real reflection of the performance. A great 10 minutes in a 90 minute match.
There were two first-teamers on the pitch from the start, and they were both substituted around the hour mark. The rest were youngsters and castoffs. The whole of the second half was dominant, and AZ did not get a sniff at all even though they had a lot of possession in the first half. United won 4-0.
There is an ignore feature!?!? Hold my coat, this will take me a few hours...
If you move Pereira to the front, it's exactly the latter part of the sequence for the first goal.
Shipped out Sanchez, Smalling, Lukaku, Fellaini and Darmian.
Matic, Mata, Jones on the fringes.
Used (regularish) Greenwood, Williams and Garner.
Rashford on the left, Martial in the middle.
Brought in Wan-Bissaka, Maguire and James.
According to reports, pulled out of Dybala offer cause the player would come for the wrong reasons.
We (try to) press higher up.
There is a plan. It’s quite obvious and if you don’t think there is you’re blind or in denial.
Now, wether the plan will work is yet to be seen. There are some positive and some negative signs, but only time will tell.
Matic, Mata, Jones on the fringes.
Used (regularish) Greenwood, Williams and Garner.
Rashford on the left, Martial in the middle.
Brought in Wan-Bissaka, Maguire and James.
According to reports, pulled out of Dybala offer cause the player would come for the wrong reasons.
We (try to) press higher up.
There is a plan. It’s quite obvious and if you don’t think there is you’re blind or in denial.
Now, wether the plan will work is yet to be seen. There are some positive and some negative signs, but only time will tell.
I find this weird... isnt this whole site designed to talk about football and Manchester United?
There are loads of people here with whom i dont share the same opinion but i still like to read their arguments.
You mention the squad as if our performances with the first team have been that much different. We had a great week but leading up to that this type of performance was typical regardless of the players. Look at Villa game for example, the City and Spurs performances where an anomaly, today was closer to the standard we have set this season. As for the United winning 4-0, as I said previously, it's a great result.
Good post. Don't see the need for us to come to a conclusion right now either way. He should have through the end of the season unless we're getting smashed week in, week out, or he has us in a relegation scrap.
Classic "I will ignore you" move that will make the user feels like he is on the winning side of the argument.
Let them enjoy their "superiority ".
Inept posters should continue acting like a child.
Yeah I was just joking, I don't have anybody on ignore, but have genuinely thought about ignoring a few of the extreme Ole-Out posters though.
If I did block them most threads wouldn't make much sense since they takeover almost every thread with their nonsense and in turn people replying to them.
No, you said it was a good result, but a bad performance. I explained why United did play as well today as against City.
As for your reply: There is an obvious upturn in form after the international break. Only two defeats in 13 games, where one was a completely meaningless game against Astana with the youngest ever line-up. Against Sheffield and Villa, United played with only one designated midfielder, and even Phil Jones played against the former. Getting respectively Martial, McT and Shaw back has been huge, as the games against Spurs and City showed.
Oh, in these 13 games, United have scored 27 goals, 2,1 per game.
As things stand the proverbial 'next 2 games' are always going to be critical. We are in that position for the forseeable future. However, if you forget how we got here, most people would have been very happy with this set of circumstances at the start of the season:
- 5th in the league, 5 points off 4th, behind a team on a losing streak.
- Top of Europa league group and qtr finals of LC with winnable opposition.
- Rashford on course for a 20 goal season.
- McTominay looking like a homegrown Captain.
- Mason Greenwood scoring 6 goals.
- Williams, Garner and Laird looking capable of being future squad players.
The results have been better but the performances haven't gotten better (with the obvious exception of City & Spurs). That's why Ole was under so much pressure going into the Spurs match.
Liverpool, Norwich, Brighton, Partizan, Spurs, City and Alkmaar have all been good to great performances. I've explained why the performances against Sheffield and Villa were not as good as they should be. Bournemouth were bad, and Astana was meaningless. If you look back on the matches since the international break, there has been and obvious positive progression. There will always be humps, though.