Do you see the plan yet?

[amolbhatia50k]

The plan off the pitch has always been clear - youth, work rate, local/British/gets the club.

It's the plan on the pitch which has often been murky and more often not appeared to resemble that which you'd expect from a top quality manager. The tactical blueprint on the pitch, leaving aside the times when it has disappeared, has seemed to be have quick transitions and play at a high tempo. Which is all well and good but as I've said before I'm not seeing the core principals of intricate control, short passing exchanges, possession retention etc that needs to be instilled in any quality team.

Last two games have been impressive but have to see more to believe in the plan.

 

[Shiva87]

Why is it whenever we start playing well he decides to tell them to stop playing well and gets us to sit back, which has invited major pressure and almost cost us big time, we had the best 30 minutes of his tenure so far at the start, then City pretty much dominated us till the end, and they had us on the ropes towards the end. Needless... Neville said it best on comms, our best from of defense was to attack but instead he had us sit back and invite pressure, stupid

Did you see his post match interview? He clearly wanted the team to continue to attack in the same way but the team sat back. He mentioned how he wants the team to learn how to keep that 30 min performance up for the full game, and that's the next step for this group.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Did you see his post match interview? He clearly wanted the team to continue to attack in the same way but the team sat back. He mentioned how he wants the team to learn how to keep that 30 min performance up for the full game, and that's the next step for this group.

Good to hear.

 

[Gasolin]

As I state earlier, I don't necessarily disagree with this view. The last 2 games we see brilliant progress in term of counter attacking or direct attacking as some would called it.

But the matter of fact is that playing against team that defend deep we are nowhere good enough and I don't see any viable plan as of now. The stats back this up.

This is the area where LVG and Jose and so far Ole failed to find a solution. Hopefully, we can sort this out with few quality additions as you stated.

Hence, let's observe a few more games against those team to see any real plan/progress in place.

I also completely understand some posters that demand a more experience and proven manager to lead us in this rebuild as Ole recent records is one of the worst in our history.

We scored 5 against Sheffield United and Aston Villa. Which means that we know how to score, we concede too much, and that's something we seem to be fixing in the last 2 games... agreed to wait but the feeling is good.

 

[Yakuza_devils]

What about take a consideration how we won against Norwich & Brighton. They also a team who defend deep. Beside, our most creative player is still injured, and he can be the key to unlock those teams.

I was referring to the overall records and not particularly a few games since Ole become permanent manager. He has had full team avaliable and played badly against team that defend deep.

I wonder what happened to the football in his first 10-11 games in charge as interim manager. That was proper entertaining attacking football we were promised in man utd dna. Play like that win, draw or lose we see a plan there. He was also using the entire squad he inherited without any signings. Hopefully, that's not entirely down to new manager bounce.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

He still needs to figure out a plan against those teams who refuse to get out their half.

Although to be fair, it's a problem we've had for 6 years so it's not just him.

This.We have the players and the tools to compete against the top teams in the league,which is obviously a big feather in Oles cap as 10 out of 38 games every season are against the big 6.And to be fair all the players that we signed last summer are also performing well,which is another big plus for the manager.

But we need to see how he manages to get the players to consistently break down teams who play with a low defensive block.Giggsey feels that when Pogba gets back,we will find it easier to break teams down...But I think it’s more than Pogba,the manager has to coach and train the players to be play in a very specific way to break down these teams.Plus we also have to start seeing greater consistency in performances from this team before we can fully get behind the managers “project”...Ole deserves time until the end of the season at least,there’s no doubt about that...

 

[Shiva87]

Not trying to be a buzzkill, but counterattacking against teams which actually want to come at you (hard) is the "easy" part. Imho the real task of the modern coach (at least for league play) is to create a system that reliably creates chances against organized defenses without giving up too much in return. And it's not like this just magically appears with time.
I think usually you see pretty early how a (good) coach is trying to accomplish that, his philosophy, even if the results aren't there from the start. Solskjaer has been in the job for about a year know and I couldn't really tell what his philosophy is.

If it was that easy, City would not have been champions over the last 2 seasons!

Ole's philosophy is quite clear to be honest - and it's as close to the United way as I've seen since 2008-09. Fast, one touch football. Deadly on transitions (not only in counter attack but all forms of transition), high press in first phase of defense, and low block in second phase.

As a fan base we've been served such poor and contrasting football 'philosophies' since SAF left that we don't recognize this. Do you prefer LVGs safe passing, two touch, football, or Jose's reactive approach to games?

 

[Yakuza_devils]

We scored 5 against Sheffield United and Aston Villa. Which means that we know how to score, we concede too much, and that's something we seem to be fixing in the last 2 games... agreed to wait but the feeling is good.

Yes, hopefully we can improve on that as we have McT back and Pogba to come back to strengthen the midfield to provide protection to the defend.

Generally, I'm not sure how to put it but against Sheffield and Villa I felt that we were second best and lucky especially against Villa to get a draw.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

If it was that easy, City would not have been champions over the last 2 seasons!

Ole's philosophy is quite clear to be honest - and it's as close to the United way as I've seen since 2008-09. Fast, one touch football. Deadly on transitions (not only in counter attack but all forms of transition), high press in first phase of defense, and low block in second phase.

As a fan base we've been served such poor and contrasting football 'philosophies' since SAF left that we don't recognize this. Do you prefer LVGs safe passing, two touch, football, or Jose's reactive approach to games?

Fast, one touch football and deadly on the counter isn't enough. A top team needs to excel at possession football as well. And one that's on its way to being so, needs to start working towards that a couple of years in advance. Our possession play is absolutely basic, which simply will not suffice.

 

[LoneStar]

Will be honest here. I was in the Ole out camp before this, and I'm still not entirely convinced about his long term future.

But I now think he should be given a bit of time to sort this against the lower teams, especially wait till Pogba returns and the winter transfer. If we buy a creative midfielder, that would definitely help us against the lower opposition.

Ultimately it depends on where we end up in the table. Our form over 38 games is a reliable indicator of the manager and team.

 

[Gasolin]

Yes, hopefully we can improve on that as we have McT back and Pogba to come back to strengthen the midfield to provide protection to the defend.

Generally, I'm not sure how to put it but against Sheffield and Villa I felt that we were second best and lucky especially against Villa to get a draw.

Yeah I hear you, the team is still shaking a bit, not trusting their abilities but it's coming. However we felt about the games, they turned it around, scoring one more than what they conceded. And the game should have finished like that. Then, we would work on defensive duties a bit more, etc... and develop more the offensive moves as well. However, it did not go that way and we had to wait.

That's just because we could not create confidence and momentum. But we are on our way of doing that. Let's do it and we will get some more points. A lot more points, as a matter of fact.

 

[Gasolin]

Fast, one touch football and deadly on the counter isn't enough. A top team needs to excel at possession football as well. And one that's on its way to being so, needs to start working towards that a couple of years in advance. Our possession play is absolutely basic, which simply will not suffice.

Maybe for you our possession is basic, but if we are to go back to that 2008 team, and it seems we are going for that, then you shouldn't worry too much because with the possession we had, we scored tons. Tons. If that can be of any consolation to you, Liverpool possession is also pretty basic and they are winning. So take a deep breath, stop worrying about the rest, and focus on the team getting back to the United identity to hurt the opposition, no matter what.

Also you forgot that it's not just fast, one touch football and counter / direct. It's also counter press as soon as the ball is lost, and if the first wave is not effective, low block to protect half spaces and win the first and second ball, force the opposition back line to play long by cutting all the midfield options and get the ball back as soon as possible, to move quickly forward and hurt again, etc...

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I was referring to the overall records and not particularly a few games since Ole become permanent manager. He has had full team avaliable and played badly against team that defend deep.

I wonder what happened to the football in his first 10-11 games in charge as interim manager. That was proper entertaining attacking football we were promised in man utd dna. Play like that win, draw or lose we see a plan there. He was also using the entire squad he inherited without any signings. Hopefully, that's not entirely down to new manager bounce.

First of all, last season is something that you can't take into consideration since that wasn't his squad. He had no a proper ball playing CB to actually start playing from the back especially against the lesser team.

This summer was his first summer transfer window which was the first step of him rebuilding our squad. There are signs of positive you can take from this season, improvement in our players which manager like Jose couldn't do, willingness not to waste money on super star player for short cut solution but choose to develop young players into top star just like United used to do under Sir Alex, slowly implement leadership into the squad & teaching the United Way to our squad.

Some of the results hadn't been good because of injuries. But when we have less injuries, we got ourselves into good result including some games against lesser team & big teams. Our squad are relatively young so inconsistent performance to be expected.

However, we hit a lot of injuries which cost us a lot this season. Blame Ole for having thin squad might not be a good logic since he was left with bunch of players who wanted to go out from the club which he had no choice to get rid most of them, so not only he had to improve the squad from last season but also need to replace some players and the board incapable to get all them and he had said it before it will take more than 1 transfer window to rebuild the squad.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Maybe for you our possession is basic, but if we are to go back to that 2008 team, and it seems we are going for that, then you shouldn't worry too much because with the possession we had, we scored tons. Tons. If that can be of any consolation to you, Liverpool possession is also pretty basic and they are winning. So take a deep breath, stop worrying about the rest, and focus on the team getting back to the United identity to hurt the opposition, no matter what.

Also you forgot that it's not just fast, one touch football and counter / direct. It's also counter press as soon as the ball is lost, and if the first wave is not effective, low block to protect half spaces and win the first and second ball, force the opposition back line to play long by cutting all the midfield options and get the ball back as soon as possible, to move quickly forward and hurt again, etc...

Nope. Both our 2008 team as well as this Liverpool team were excellent at retaining the ball and playing possession football. Even the best counter attacking teams (or so they are called), tend to excel at retaining the ball, otherwise all teams would have to do is sit back against them to destroy their one dimensional plan.

I'm not forgetting about winning the ball early etc I just haven't our system as fully formed as you do, perhaps.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'stop worrying about the rest'? I hope the manager for one is worrying about the rest as we have to improve these aspects to become the team we want us to be. Hope it comes soon.

 

[Gasolin]

Nope. Both our 2008 team as well as this Liverpool team were excellent at retaining the ball and playing possession football. Even the best counter attacking teams (or so they are called), tend to excel at retaining the ball, otherwise all teams would have to do is sit back against them to destroy their one dimensional plan.

I'm not forgetting about winning the ball early etc I just haven't our system as fully formed as you do, perhaps.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'stop worrying about the rest'? I hope the manager for one is worrying about the rest as we have to improve these aspects to become the team we want us to be. Hope it comes soon.

Excellent at retaining possession? I wouldn't say so. Sometimes, when you score a lot, the other team mentally checks out and you end up with the ball, but excellent at that? No, that was not exactly us and I don't think that's even the current Liverpool. Anyway, my point is, we don't need to play a la Pep to get tons of points to win the league, and we are getting there, hence my "stop worrying about that".

 

[sglowrider]

I do think there is actually a plan. The plan is rebuilding the squad. It's something that our previous managers had failed to do and nowhere near to be on the right track. The rebuilding plan consists having manager & coaches who can improve players, developing young players into star players, slowly add leadership into the squad that needs ones & teaching the teenager & young players the United Way. Ole might not be the man to win us league title (who knows), but so far he's done all of those lists to rebuild the squad:

• Him & our coaches have made improvement on our players like Fred, Rashford, Martial, McTominay, James and etc.
• Unlike the previous managers, we are focusing on developing our young players like Rashford, Martial, McTominay, James, Bissaka & the teenagers.
• This season is the very first time we actually know what's our best XI and who can be Manchester United captain in the future (Maguire, McTominay & Rashford). These are something that our previous managers have fail to integrate into our squad.
• Ole knows the United Way and he is teaching this to our young players.

The club know that they feck up hiring managers who prefer short cut. We ain't catching City & Liverpool in any short period of time, we tried to spend money on super star players and didn't work and beside we don't have as much money as PSG, City & Real. We are way behind & the best way to challenge the league title again in the future is rebuild the squad by doing those lists which require time. I think Ole will stay even if we finish outside top 4 because the board knows that the rebuilding process require time, as long as there is positive sign in our squad by end of the season, I'm sure Ole will be given another summer transfer window.

Plus they are changing the culture. Less mercenary and more players who are playing for the badge. Changing that will require culling then a rebuild of attitude. This is why I suspect they aren't loading sleep over Pogba. Just max out the price.

 

[keener]

I do see the plan. Here's my OVERLY thought out opinion of our team, our direction and our current crop of players. First, I think we've fallen into a tough situation in recruitment. This may hurt those of us that believe we're the "biggest" club in world football. The Top top players don't want to come to united atm. Name any of them... Neymar (haha haha, no thx), Bale (also haha), Ronaldo (rumored to have been offered a return), Ramos, Boateng (a yr or 2 ago when we went in for him) just as a few examples. With this as the backdrop, we've hired Moyes which basically got Fellaini, we hired Van Gaal who bought a few useful players but nobody near the top of the game, and Jose... and after these failed tenures, we decided to go with a United legend in Ole Gunner, buy very good but yet unproven and undeveloped youth and have patience (although I challenge how much patience we'd ultimately have had if things continued on a floundering track). The reality is that we went with youth but needed to see improvement and development to allow us to stick to it.

This week was absolutely essential to allow us more time to see out this current project, to allow James, and Fred and McTominay to continue to develop.

That said, I think of the 15-18 top players needed in championship winning side, we only have a small percentage of those players in the club atm. I think the following players could play a role over the next few years in a premier league championship quality team: DDG, Mcgwire, Lindelof, Bissaka, Pogba, Rashford, Daniel James with Lingard, Fred, Shaw and Martial as squad players or rotational players on a top top team. I suppose I'm saying that we need a truly top striker and I think we desperately need a partner for McTominay (I'm a huge fan of his).

Fred has had 2 great performances, on the heels of many dismal showings and Pereira shouldn't be on the field in a top quality team. Still too early to tell for Greenwood IMO.

I think the place to start is to go get Timo Warner from Germany and get a Rakatic or Kante type to anchor the midfield along with Scott. Spend 200M on these 2 in January and give us a running head start in chemistry going into next season. Ultimately, we'll need a more dependable left back as I like a healthy and in shape Shaw but he's proven unreliable. We need more high quality depth in the midfield and frankly more quality options to allow Ole to find the right combinations and/or even tactically change up the team depending on opponents.

What gives me great confidence is the fact that we have the resources to spend, like no other team in the world and we have a decent blueprint.... We just need a world class brain making those decisions to find the next Kante if we can't go buy him from Chelsea! Not sure Ed Woodward has the ability to do this so put people around him or take this responsibility from him to get this done ASAP!

 

[Shiva87]

Fast, one touch football and deadly on the counter isn't enough. A top team needs to excel at possession football as well. And one that's on its way to being so, needs to start working towards that a couple of years in advance. Our possession play is absolutely basic, which simply will not suffice.

When you are looking at constant forward passing - you lose a lot on the possession side. We are not bad at this even now, but lack some serious creativity to break down tight defences. That's been very obvious. The thing with a work in progress team is that you make one change at a time. My view on this has been that Ole has done the following so far - which ticks a lot of boxes:

1. Improve squad fitness and ability to last a full 90 mins at a high tempo. (This really showed in the City and Spurs games - no way we are fit enough to play at that tempo within 3 days last year).

2. Improve defensive coordination (signings + coaching). We are much better now on this (with the exception of the 2 games where Andreas started in CDM).

3. High Press: The way we defend when we lose the ball is the best I have seen in a while. If you notice, the moment we lose the ball - we have 2-3 players trying to win it back and putting pressure on the player in possession. If we can't win it, then the whole team drops back.

4. Set piece defending - I think we have got much much better at this as the season has gone along. We are winning most balls that come into the box, which wasn't the case last year. We used to go behind a lot because of set piece goals.

5. Forward movements - he is clearly working with Rashford and Martial a lot to improve their movement in the final third. Rashford has been very good from the inside left forward position, but they still aren't getting in the 6 yard box enough. I can only think of the Liverpool goal as an isolated example of Rashford having beaten the defender with clever movement.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Excellent at retaining possession? I wouldn't say so. Sometimes, when you score a lot, the other team mentally checks out and you end up with the ball, but excellent at that? No, that was not exactly us and I don't think that's even the current Liverpool. Anyway, my point is, we don't need to play a la Pep to get tons of points to win the league, and we are getting there, hence my "stop worrying about that".

We are getting there (there being attaining tons of points to win the league)? Really? Who looks at this United team this season and feels we are heading towards a title winning outfit? If may happen one day, but you make sound as though we are well on our way or something. As if we've already cracked the code.

That's the issue. For you the word possession means Pep. It means tiki taka, which is far from the truth. Sir Alex's United used to often be direct (counter attack is a dicey term, as we didn't sit back), but also knew how to retain the ball excellently which is why sitting back against us didn't nullify us. Same with Liverpool. Great teams can do it all - they can pass in between the lines, they can pull defences around, they can go quick and strong or slow it down and probe as required. That doesn't mean they don't have a preference. Our great teams always preferred to go for the kill IF they could. If they couldn't they knew how to pressurise for the opening. That's the hardest thing for us to attain and what we've been trying for a long time to do.

 

[Gasolin]

We are getting there (there being attaining tons of points to win the league)? Really? Who looks at this United team this season and feels we are heading towards a title winning outfit? If may happen one day, but you make sound as though we are well on our way or something. As if we've already cracked the code.

That's the issue. For you the word possession means Pep. It means tiki taka, which is far from the truth. Sir Alex's United used to often be direct (counter attack is a dicey term, as we didn't sit back), but also knew how to retain the ball excellently which is why sitting back against us didn't nullify us. Same with Liverpool. Great teams can do it all - they can pass in between the lines, they can pull defences around, they can go quick and strong or slow it down and probe as required. That doesn't mean they don't have a preference. Our great teams always preferred to go for the kill IF they could. If they couldn't they knew how to pressurise for the opening. That's the hardest thing for us to attain and what we've been trying for a long time to do.

Look at the current team and see what they are trying to do, it's exactly that blueprint they are following. How did we get the goal against Spurs? Greenwood pulling out Sanchez, and Lingard getting into the space, Rashford also attacking the space and it becomes a goal. How did we score against City? We went fast with Martial and James getting the ball, but we didn't panic, we work around a one two and shot when we saw an opening... and it was a thought process.

And the pass in between the lines? That's exactly what Lingard is doing, that's what Maguire is trying to do to move the ball forward etc... we definitely have a vision in mind and we are executing on it.

 

[Sky1981]

The plan off the pitch has always been clear - youth, work rate, local/British/gets the club.

It's the plan on the pitch which has often been murky and more often not appeared to resemble that which you'd expect from a top quality manager. The tactical blueprint on the pitch, leaving aside the times when it has disappeared, has seemed to be have quick transitions and play at a high tempo. Which is all well and good but as I've said before I'm not seeing the core principals of intricate control, short passing exchanges, possession retention etc that needs to be instilled in any quality team.

Last two games have been impressive but have to see more to believe in the plan.

Counter attacking with pace is IMHO our best plan according to the tools we've had (lack of midfielder, pacey wingers abundance, lacking technical in possession), our problem comes against teams that gaves us proper respect, teams that doesn't underestimate us and defend accordingly while hitting us on the counter.

Liverpool, City, Hotspur they got cocky because they smell blood and that plays right to our alley, if we keep this up teams will becomes wary and we'll suddenly hit a road block again, until we become underdog and they dare to attack again, rinse repeat.

What I want United is ability to keep the ball in pressure, a signature of every top team is passing, good passing, in tight spaces. When we have that, we can break down teams no matter their size and build.

 

[jackal&hyde]

You snuck past an embarassing Tottenham performance then sat back and defended for your lives against a City side that currently has no defence. That's all.

Within the context of a woeful last 10 months.

We have the same number of loses as City and one less then Chelsea. It's the draws that made us lose many points and the injuries were a big part of that.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Vw

Counter attacking with pace is IMHO our best plan according to the tools we've had (lack of midfielder, pacey wingers abundance, lacking technical in possession), our problem comes against teams that gaves us proper respect, teams that doesn't underestimate us and defend accordingly while hitting us on the counter.

Liverpool, City, Hotspur they got cocky because they smell blood and that plays right to our alley, if we keep this up teams will becomes wary and we'll suddenly hit a road block again, until we become underdog and they dare to attack again, rinse repeat.

What I want United is ability to keep the ball in pressure, a signature of every top team is passing, good passing, in tight spaces. When we have that, we can break down teams no matter their size and build.

Agree

 

[Gasolin]

Counter attacking with pace is IMHO our best plan according to the tools we've had (lack of midfielder, pacey wingers abundance, lacking technical in possession), our problem comes against teams that gaves us proper respect, teams that doesn't underestimate us and defend accordingly while hitting us on the counter.

Liverpool, City, Hotspur they got cocky because they smell blood and that plays right to our alley, if we keep this up teams will becomes wary and we'll suddenly hit a road block again, until we become underdog and they dare to attack again, rinse repeat.

What I want United is ability to keep the ball in pressure, a signature of every top team is passing, good passing, in tight spaces. When we have that, we can break down teams no matter their size and build.

What have we been doing in the last games? How did Martial score? How did we create situations for shots? etc...

 

[hungrywing]

Plus they are changing the culture.

For which Woodward is 100% to blame. It's a pretty good idea for everyone to try and not lose sight of this or to at least try to understand it if they never really did. Woodward's insecurity-based approach - in any field - eventually manifests itself within the organization as desperation. Then you get people focusing on a smorgasboard of things trying to 'fix' the problems and - even worse - pretending like they're not there, pulling in all sorts of directions. Lingard's 0.012% thing for example is a textbook example of the sort of overcompensation that goes on as a result of desperation due to mismanagement.

Anyways, seeing semi-major signs of improvement on that front. For one, I believe Ole has gotten through to Rashford in a big big way.

But there's one player who's made Ole's effort on this particular front light-years easier (if he's really astute enough to be aware of/tackling this issue broadly) and that player is Dan James.

Less mercenary and more players who are playing for the badge. Changing that will require culling then a rebuild of attitude. This is why I suspect they aren't loading sleep over Pogba. Just max out the price.

I think Ole might think he can rehabilitate Pogba. I think it is possible as well. I do hope that the bolded part is correct.

The whole 'homegrown' thing confuses a lot of people regarding Pogba. He was a part of Woodward's second wave of merc signings and that 'homegrown' thing masked the fact - if his reported wage is true - that he is literally the biggest one of all of them. Yes, including Sanchez.

 

[Sky1981]

What have we been doing in the last games? How did Martial score? How did we create situations for shots? etc...

Against a tight teams that plays defensive. We have to sadly aspire like city where they steamrolled teams they should be steamrolling.

Our teams seems to be only working as intended whenever we're defending and playing counterattack. That's not something we can rely on 38 games. You dont expect teams like Newcastle to press us and gave us space to counter with pace.

 

[sglowrider]

For which Woodward is 100% to blame. It's a pretty good idea for everyone to try and not lose sight of this or to at least try to understand it if they never really did. Woodward's insecurity-based approach - in any field - eventually manifests itself within the organization as desperation. Then you get people focusing on a smorgasboard of things trying to 'fix' the problems and - even worse - pretending like they're not there, pulling in all sorts of directions. Lingard's 0.012% thing for example is a textbook example of the sort of overcompensation that goes on as a result of desperation due to mismanagement.

Anyways, seeing semi-major signs of improvement on that front. For one, I believe Ole has gotten through to Rashford in a big big way.

But there's one player who's made Ole's effort on this particular front light-years easier (if he's really astute enough to be aware of/tackling this issue broadly) and that player is Dan James.



I think Ole might think he can rehabilitate Pogba. I think it is possible as well. I do hope that the bolded part is correct.

The whole 'homegrown' thing confuses a lot of people regarding Pogba. He was a part of Woodward's second wave of merc signings and that 'homegrown' thing masked the fact - if his reported wage is true - that he is literally the biggest one of all of them. Yes, including Sanchez.

Nail on head.

People are just looking at the footballing side. But as the previous managers have proven, we are jumping from one short term solution to another -- the common denominator there is Woodward.

Like any major overhaul, there are tangible stuff and intangible inputs.

Its reminds me of work where you have sales guys bitching away at the company's re-org ----- only seeing the changes and how it affects their sales. What they are seeing is only the tip of the iceberg.

They don't see the rest of the work and changes that's being implemented, both tangible and intangible. Only a few people will live and breath that big picture.

The difference here is that as employees, you will at least have some insights but us as fans, only crumbs. And as far as employees like the players go, they seem pretty happy and hopeful with the exception of the deadwoods like Matic.

 

[roonster09]

He has a plan and it's something he said it in preseason.

Ole said he wants his team to play with intensity, press high and work harder than the other team. That's the basics of football and looks like finally we are implementing it.

In one of the interviews he said he doesn't like passing sideways for the sake of it, players when they win the ball should look for forward pass and that's exactly how we are playing. This obviously results in low possession but quick counters.

Also the counter attacking that we play is different from Jose's where we relied on playing long balls to Lukaku and then hoping to win second ball. Now as soon as we win the ball, players play quick passes and then tries to make line breaking passes to #10 position, which is either occupied by #10 or Martial. At that time Rashford and James makes the runs on the wings. There is a clear set way in how we counter attack. We have improved a lot maybe because of Fred's ability to play through passes and also his ability to beat the press.

We have many improvement points though, first thing is we should retain possession (which is against how Ole wants his team to play as he wants quick forward passes), more combination play with FBs who should be making more overlapping forward runs, and one of the most important part is, we should learn how to kill the game. We go either defensive or drop deeper after taking the lead, we are not good at shutting the shop which results in dropping points.

We have lost points from winning positions against Wolves, Southampton, Arsenal, Liverpool, Sheffield United, Aston Villa. That's 6 games (12 points).

If we don't improve our record against smaller clubs, then all the good record vs top 6 won't be of much use. We should be complete package rather than just being Robin Hood. Hopefully we will get there with few additions in Jan.

 

[Bobcat]

The plan off the pitch has always been clear - youth, work rate, local/British/gets the club.

It's the plan on the pitch which has often been murky and more often not appeared to resemble that which you'd expect from a top quality manager. The tactical blueprint on the pitch, leaving aside the times when it has disappeared, has seemed to be have quick transitions and play at a high tempo. Which is all well and good but as I've said before I'm not seeing the core principals of intricate control, short passing exchanges, possession retention etc that needs to be instilled in any quality team.

Last two games have been impressive but have to see more to believe in the plan.

I think the focus so far has been on work rate and tactical discipline and hopefully we can become better at this, but i doubt we will become very good at it, not with this group of players at least. I think the best we can hope for is getting adept at holding on to the ball using low risk passes, but i dont think we will ever see McTomminay, Rashford, James et al playing triangles inside the opposition box because that is not really their forte.

Even under Fergie we rarely played anything resembling possession football and if you look on any video of "100 greatest Manchester United goals" pretty much all of them are some kind of counter attacking goal or long range strike. What we did have though was fear and respect. Teams where terrified of having a go at us back then, because they knew if they gave us the slightest bit of room we could punish them hard. I saw Bournemouth vs Liverpool on Saturday and i saw the same kind of fear in Bournemouth, they were terrified of pressing Liverpool so it then became super easy for Liverpool to keep possession.

Villa and Sheffield showed us no respect, they pressed very high and very hard all game. The difference between those games and Spurs/City where that our passing game was not up to scratch. We tried to do the same in those games, but time and time again we lost possession in our own half because we attempted a high risk pass and they snuffed it out. Vs Spurs and City though, or passing was crisp and precise, which meant we cut them open again and again.

I think our style has been evident for a long time, the problem has been that when we dont pull it off we look like clowns, but when we do it right we look scintillating

We do need to get better at parked buses no doubt, but the problem so far has really been more that we cant hang onto a lead vs the smaller sides. We often score first, which should be ideal for us because it means they have to move further up the pitch which is what we want, but instead of making is 2-0 we have fecked up in defense and it has become 1-1 instead.

Yes, our ball retention, especially when we are leading, needs to get much better. If we get better at passing it around we can tire out opponents who press us. And our offensive passing needs to be on the level we have showed the last couple of games. If we can manage those two consistently, we will also win more consistently.

 

[The Boy]

“Clubs struggle when you're not sure what they want, or what they're trying to do.
“And then they go through a process where they struggle.
“The ones that have an identity, the ones that are clear, that know what they're working towards have a chance of improving more than you would think.
“You always have to have that hope, that mentality, but then the work is the key thing.
“If you look at Liverpool, they are the top of the moment and they have gradually worked at that.

This is a quote from Graham Potter and I think it really applies to Utd. Under Moyes, LvG and Jose, the owners, manager and players were never aligned. Under Ole it looks like they all are for the first time since before SAF left. Ole undoubtedly has a plan, the board have said again and again they are behind it and the players are without doubt playing for him. I’ve said it in other threads but I would be optimistic if I were a Utd fan.

 

[Gasolin]

I think the focus so far has been on work rate and tactical discipline and hopefully we can become better at this, but i doubt we will become very good at it, not with this group of players at least. I think the best we can hope for is getting adept at holding on to the ball using low risk passes, but i dont think we will ever see McTomminay, Rashford, James et al playing triangles inside the opposition box because that is not really their forte.

Even under Fergie we rarely played anything resembling possession football and if you look on any video of "100 greatest Manchester United goals" pretty much all of them are some kind of counter attacking goal or long range strike. What we did have though was fear and respect. Teams where terrified of having a go at us back then, because they knew if they gave us the slightest bit of room we could punish them hard. I saw Bournemouth vs Liverpool on Saturday and i saw the same kind of fear in Bournemouth, they were terrified of pressing Liverpool so it then became super easy for Liverpool to keep possession.

Villa and Sheffield showed us no respect, they pressed very high and very hard all game. The difference between those games and Spurs/City where that our passing game was not up to scratch. We tried to do the same in those games, but time and time again we lost possession in our own half because we attempted a high risk pass and they snuffed it out. Vs Spurs and City though, or passing was crisp and precise, which meant we cut them open again and again.

I think our style has been evident for a long time, the problem has been that when we dont pull it off we look like clowns, but when we do it right we look scintillating

We do need to get better at parked buses no doubt, but the problem so far has really been more that we cant hang onto a lead vs the smaller sides. We often score first, which should be ideal for us because it means they have to move further up the pitch which is what we want, but instead of making is 2-0 we have fecked up in defense and it has become 1-1 instead.

Yes, our ball retention, especially when we are leading, needs to get much better. If we get better at passing it around we can tire out opponents who press us. And our offensive passing needs to be on the level we have showed the last couple of games. If we can manage those two consistently, we will also win more consistently.

Thank you! I was trying to tell that too to @amolbhatia50k.

 

[Listar]

It’s weird when people including the pundits says we have problem breakin down teams when we scored the same amount against Sheffield and Villa as we did against spurs and city.

The problem I see is we lack concentration and focus against those “lesser” teams and concede some sloppy goals (Tyrone Ming’s, Sheffields striker cutting through our middle with a free run etc.) whereas against spurs and city the concentration levels were absurdly high. If we keep doing what we’re doing and stop the leak at the back we will be alright.

 

[sglowrider]

It’s weird when people including the pundits says we have problem breakin down teams when we scored the same amount against Sheffield and Villa as we did against spurs and city.

The problem I see is we lack concentration and focus against those “lesser” teams and concede some sloppy goals (Tyrone Ming’s, Sheffields striker cutting through our middle with a free run etc.) whereas against spurs and city the concentration levels were absurdly high. If we keep doing what we’re doing and stop the leak at the back we will be alright.

It goes beyond concentration which to me is also a maturity issue. We dont have the sort of players to break down a low block. A young Mata would have been fantastic but his legs are gone now.

So until we get reinforcement for any positions -- and thats a transfer choice of an experienced player (expensive and no guaranteed short term benefits ala Sanchez) or a potential impact player who may not reap the benefits immediately.

And they would both impact an academy player's development.

Its about whether they want to go down the road with short term solutions or long term ones. If Ole has been given reassurances that he will be back through the thick and thin, at least for the next couple of years, then he will make the long term choice.

 

[Sky1981]

It goes beyond concentration which to me is also a maturity issue. We dont have the sort of players to break down a low block. A young Mata would have been fantastic but his legs are gone now.

So until we get reinforcement for any positions -- and thats a transfer choice of an experienced player (expensive and no guaranteed short term benefits ala Sanchez) or a potential impact player who may not reap the benefits immediately.

And they would both impact an academy player's development.

Its about whether they want to go down the road with short term solutions or long term ones. If Ole has been given reassurances that he will be back through the thick and thin, at least for the next couple of years, then he will make the long term choice.

Mata is a total mismatch these past 6 years , a sore for the eyes.

He's the one players that doesn't match our 4 managers so far. He needs the team to be build around him, a slower highly technical side which we aren't.

 

[The Siege]

That's generally because he has no options. He went into that game with bench options of Greenwood, Mata, Pereira and 3 defenders. He could have done with more legs in midfield or throw on a fresh pacy attacker to expose them on the counter attack.

But apart from throwing on a young kid when they were in a "no mistake" moment, his options for pace on the counter or midfield energy were Mata or Pereira.

Poor Pep had to make do with £60m Mahrez or Champions League finalist Gundogan.

While his options are certainly a factor in this, there are lot more facets to this that we can and should be doing much better in. You're in a midweek game in a week where you have 3 big showdowns, your players need to be given specific instructions about game phases and energy conservation. It was grossly evident that we wouldn't be able to sustain the first half pressing efforts, but then what? Also, at a point where you're under-pressure, 2 goals up, and your attacking runners are tired, even Greenwood gives you a fresh out-ball. We're more reactive than proactive with game management, and it shows.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

What we did have though was fear and respect. Teams where terrified of having a go at us back then, because they knew if they gave us the slightest bit of room we could punish them hard.

Yes - and we also had what I'd call an X-factor in the shape of individual players with the ability to create/unlock/just force something through when the flow of the match wasn't favourable as such.

At any rate, to describe us as a team able to seamlessly switch between "counter attacking" (broadly speaking) and "possession based" football - would be very misleading. As you say, our game was never based on possession - not in any type of match scenario.

 

[do.ob]

If it was that easy, City would not have been champions over the last 2 seasons!

Last season City were on a different level defensively, disposed of United 2-0 away from home and conceded 23 goals in 38 games.

This season they have the same coach and same team (yes I know they had some injury problems at the back, but still), but they aren't as sharp defensively and they already conceded 19 goals in 16 games, because teams find it easy to attack the space they leave behind them.

It's a big reason why Guardiola gets a lot of respect despite coaching these super rich teams, because it's damn hard to have such a consistent attacking output without paying for it at the other end and from the looks of it this year he's failing to maintain that balance.

Ole's philosophy is quite clear to be honest - and it's as close to the United way as I've seen since 2008-09. Fast, one touch football. Deadly on transitions (not only in counter attack but all forms of transition), high press in first phase of defense, and low block in second phase.

As a fan base we've been served such poor and contrasting football 'philosophies' since SAF left that we don't recognize this. Do you prefer LVGs safe passing, two touch, football, or Jose's reactive approach to games?

For the record I've got nothing to say against how the team played against City, it was a good game. But bigger picture about half of Bundesliga's coaches could be described that way. An approach like that was special maybe 7-8 years ago, when Klopp had his success with Dortmund, playing that kind of football and said stuff like "counterpressing is the best no10". But since then coaches aren't as naive about it anymore, they don't just blunder into pressing traps and counter attacks, because when you don't necessarily have to beat the opposition it's fairly easy to deny them their (counter)pressing and transitions by just conceding possession and playing it long or even straight up hoofing it, as soon as players feel any kind of pressure.
It's why as a big club you always end up with 60%+ possession and if your philosophy is just fast transitions and lacks positional ideas the tables get turned and you can't beat newly promoted sides, because while your team is struggling to find a way to penetrate their defense they actually get the space for easy attacks.

I think van Gaal had good ideas, but perhaps couldn't find the right implementation in the modern game anymore and after sacking him the club should have hired a coach who would have been happy to build on that, but I don't see how van Gaal or even Mourinho make Solskjaer better or worse. "Look, that guy was worse (and that isn't even a fact yet)" is not a good way of leading something to success.

 

[RedWat]

It’s weird when people including the pundits says we have problem breakin down teams when we scored the same amount against Sheffield and Villa as we did against spurs and city.

The problem I see is we lack concentration and focus against those “lesser” teams and concede some sloppy goals (Tyrone Ming’s, Sheffields striker cutting through our middle with a free run etc.) whereas against spurs and city the concentration levels were absurdly high. If we keep doing what we’re doing and stop the leak at the back we will be alright.

Yep I have to agree with you, SAF 2008 Utd side had the same level of intensity and focus when they played a Watford as they would playing a Liverpool.
If we played with the same intensity against Villa as we did against City. Then the result would be different(even with Pierera in midfield)
If we show the same desire against the lesser teams employing a high press off the ball, sniffing out any danger and clinical passing to the front when on the ball then the remainder of the season will be interesting.

 

[EdinburghDevil]

Having more players would help with that.

Someone to rotate..
Someone for a plan B.

Considering there wasnt a single player on the bench I would have liked to see start (Young maybe.. Greenwood and Axel maybe because they have potential but arent ready yet), we clearly dont have enough players to perform at our best every 5 days.

We need more players. If we get them and we still drop points against dross, you might have a point..
Till then, ups and downs are expected...

This is it for me. When teams set up hard to break down there is currently not enough squad depth to bring someone on who can grab a goal or change the point of attack, add extra creativity etc.

Ole doesn't currently have the luxury of bringing on say, Ole!

 

[POF]

While his options are certainly a factor in this, there are lot more facets to this that we can and should be doing much better in. You're in a midweek game in a week where you have 3 big showdowns, your players need to be given specific instructions about game phases and energy conservation. It was grossly evident that we wouldn't be able to sustain the first half pressing efforts, but then what? Also, at a point where you're under-pressure, 2 goals up, and your attacking runners are tired, even Greenwood gives you a fresh out-ball. We're more reactive than proactive with game management, and it shows.

Nowhere near the running power of Rashford, James or Lingard. The game was opening up even more and they needed speed in attacking areas. Pushing Rashford forward made sense, as did adding a more defensively savvy player in central midfield.

It's much easier to throw on a young player when chasing than defending a winning position. In recent weeks, mistakes by Gomes (Astana) and Williams (Villa) cost them crucial points. Bringing Greenwood on would have been risky.

United have just produced 2 fantastic performances, deservedly beating Spurs and City. Look at the bench Ole had at his disposal for those games. Compare that to the opposition's bench. He had very few options to work with.