Donald Trump The First - Indicted The Fourth

[WI_Red]

Fun fact: this is exactly how it works in Norway. The only thing you lose by being in prison is your liberty, your freedom to go where you want and do what you want. You still have the right to vote, the right to an education, etc. This is why a defining principle of the Norwegian correctional system is "normality", meaning that everything is supposed to resemble outside life as far as possible.

Spoiler: Some interesting videos (if you're interested in this sort of thing)

(<- half-way through this one you get a sequence where some American prisoners are asked to "design" a dream prison by the Norwegian warden, it's very insightful).

Another fun fact: never mind voting while in prison, the American socialist Eugene Debs ran for President while in prison. He only got 3.4% of the vote, but that's not so bad for a third-party candidate campaigning from prison as a socialist during the first Red Scare.

Fascinating dude and reminded me of this 2 part podcast from the guys at the Dollup on the Pullman strike. Debs figured prominently in the strike. The Dollup is not for everyone, but I love it.

483 - George Pullman - Part 1 - The Dollop - All Things Comedy
484 - George Pullman Part 2 - The Strike - The Dollop - All Things Comedy

 

[nimic]

I'll just add here that I agree with these notions. I was just staying out of that aspect in what's otherwise a pretty factual conversation.

Also, isn't the Norwegian correctional service one of the most successful in the world in terms of (a lack of) recidivism etc? (And the US system one of the worst, at least among OECD countries?) Norway is certainly often used as an example of a good system in the Netherlands.

Yes, pretty much. Our prisoners generally come out less criminal than they came in as, whereas the US is going for the opposite.

 

[WI_Red]

Yes, pretty much. Our prisoners generally come out less criminal than they came in as, whereas the US is going for the opposite.

When you have for profit prisons there is good money to be made off of return customers.

 

[Ramshock]

When you have for profit prisons there is good money to be made off of return customers.

Murica, where everything is for profit

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Thank you for your reply, it is very interesting to hear about these things especially that although voting for a national leader (Presidential Elections) the actual rules of engagement (so to speak) are determined at State level. As you say open to 'bias' in different ways. At one time in the UK voting by Mail (or 'postal' voting as we know it) was reserved only for those who are either incapacitated in some way and cannot get to a voting location usually some kind of disability, although now this kind of voting is allowed for a much wider range of people, e.g. elderly people who are fearful of going out alone after dark etc. and people now can choose to vote by mail, but there are lots of official checks undertaken to make sure it is all legitimate. There have been a few 'voter frauds' discovered, but since the UK has a countrywide system its less prevalent.
Certainly this explains why there was so much uproar at your last Presidential election, if every state has its own way of doing things and a massive increase in 'mail in' voting occurred. Chances are the loser was always going to cry 'foul'.

Thanks for the explanation much appreciated.

There was an article this week from the New Yorker that expands on some of these concepts. In particular, it ties in how a lot of GOP donor money is now going to fund the narrative that Trump only lost because of "election fraud", which completely lacks any evidence supporting that narrative and is fueling a concentrated effort that doesn't just focus on voter suppression but also tries to delegitimize any election result that doesn't go their way. Combine that with other efforts like the wealthy GOP donor push to try to recall popular California governor Gavin Newsom and you get a three-pronged approach to trying every possible way to game the system to protect the desired results for the GOP.

Here are some key points:

"Arizona is hardly the only place where attacks on the electoral process are under way: a well-funded national movement has been exploiting Trump’s claims of fraud in order to promote alterations to the way that ballots are cast and counted in forty-nine states, eighteen of which have passed new voting laws in the past six months. Republican-dominated legislatures have also stripped secretaries of state and other independent election officials of their power. The chair of Arizona’s Republican Party, Kelli Ward, has referred to the state’s audit as a “domino,” and has expressed hope that it will inspire similar challenges elsewhere."

"Richard Hasen, a law professor at the University of California, Irvine, and one of the country’s foremost election-law experts, told me, “I’m scared shitless.” Referring to the array of new laws passed by Republican state legislatures since the 2020 election, he said, “It’s not just about voter suppression. What I’m really worried about is election subversion. Election officials are being put in place who will mess with the count.”

"Arizona’s secretary of state, Katie Hobbs, whose office has authority over the administration of elections, told me that the conspiracy-driven audit “looks so comical you have to laugh at it sometimes.” But Hobbs, a Democrat, who is running for governor, warned, “It’s dangerous. It’s feeding the kind of misinformation that led to the January 6th insurrection.” QAnon followers have been celebrating the audit as the beginning of a “Great Awakening” that will eject Biden from the White House. She noted, “I’ve gotten death threats. I’ve had armed protestors outside my house. Every day, there is a total barrage of social media to our office. We’ve had to route our phones to voice mail so that no one has to listen to it. It can be really traumatizing. I feel beaten up.” She added, “But I’m not going to cave to their tactics—because I think they’re laying the groundwork to steal the 2024 elections.”

"One of the movement’s leaders is the Heritage Foundation, the prominent conservative think tank in Washington, D.C. It has been working with the American Legislative Exchange Council (alec)—a corporate-funded nonprofit that generates model laws for state legislators—on ways to impose new voting restrictions. Among those deep in the fight is Leonard Leo, a chairman of the Federalist Society, the legal organization known for its decades-long campaign to fill the courts with conservative judges. In February, 2020, the Judicial Education Project, a group tied to Leo, quietly rebranded itself as the Honest Elections Project, which subsequently filed briefs at the Supreme Court, and in numerous states, opposing mail-in ballots and other reforms that have made it easier for people to vote. "

" Jonathan Rauch, of the Brookings Institution, recently told The Economist, “We need to regard what’s happening now as epistemic warfare by some Americans on other Americans.” Pillars of the conservative establishment, faced with a changing U.S. voter population that threatens their agenda, are exploiting Trump’s contempt for norms to devise ways to hold on to power. Senator Whitehouse said of the campaign, “It’s a massive covert operation run by a small group of billionaire élites. These are powerful interests with practically unlimited resources who have moved on manipulating...[the right to vote]

 

[langster]

The Trump statement about the women's football team is something else

 

[Maagge]

@nimic, @Cheimoon, @NotworkSte, @Maagge, @Wl_Red and all who have responded to my initial questions, many thanks.

It started as just 'a question' for clarification, but what you have told me certainly makes me think that long held (personal) views of how a country held up as a bastion of the Free operates its internal politics, needs to be re-set.
Thanks once again

No bloody worries. The more you start to delve into the history of American democracy you get absolutely horrified at how many things they try to do to make it difficult for people to have a voice. Awful democracy but for some reason a lot of Americans think they're the dog's bollocks where democracy is concerned.

 

[WI_Red]

No bloody worries. The more you start to delve into the history of American democracy you get absolutely horrified at how many things they try to do to make it difficult for people to have a voice. Awful democracy but for some reason a lot of Americans think they're the dog's bollocks where democracy is concerned.

I would say we are the dog's bollocks for all the wrong, yet inspirational, reasons. The tenacity and dedication that each disenfranchised group had to fight and claw its way to suffrage is inspiring and depressing in turns.

Our Constitution was a decent yet deeply flawed attempt of codifying a representative government. We are so far removed, both in times and in norms, from the original document that we would be better off with a new Constitutional Convention to create a new document. Not going to happen in my lifetime if ever.

 

[Maagge]

I would say we are the dog's bollocks for all the wrong, yet inspirational, reasons. The tenacity and dedication that each disenfranchised group had to fight and claw its way to suffrage is inspiring and depressing in turns.

Our Constitution was a decent yet deeply flawed attempt of codifying a representative government. We are so far removed, both in times and in norms, from the original document that we would be better off with a new Constitutional Convention to create a new document. Not going to happen in my lifetime if ever.

Yeah I'll give you that. The activists are inspiring but the people in power have largely been cnuts.

 

[Cheimoon]

There was an article this week from the New Yorker that expands on some of these concepts. In particular, it ties in how a lot of GOP donor money is now going to fund the narrative that Trump only lost because of "election fraud", which completely lacks any evidence supporting that narrative and is fueling a concentrated effort that doesn't just focus on voter suppression but also tries to delegitimize any election result that doesn't go their way. Combine that with other efforts like the wealthy GOP donor push to try to recall popular California governor Gavin Newsom and you get a three-pronged approach to trying every possible way to game the system to protect the desired results for the GOP.

Here are some key points:

"Arizona is hardly the only place where attacks on the electoral process are under way: a well-funded national movement has been exploiting Trump’s claims of fraud in order to promote alterations to the way that ballots are cast and counted in forty-nine states, eighteen of which have passed new voting laws in the past six months. Republican-dominated legislatures have also stripped secretaries of state and other independent election officials of their power. The chair of Arizona’s Republican Party, Kelli Ward, has referred to the state’s audit as a “domino,” and has expressed hope that it will inspire similar challenges elsewhere."

"Richard Hasen, a law professor at the University of California, Irvine, and one of the country’s foremost election-law experts, told me, “I’m scared shitless.” Referring to the array of new laws passed by Republican state legislatures since the 2020 election, he said, “It’s not just about voter suppression. What I’m really worried about is election subversion. Election officials are being put in place who will mess with the count.”

"Arizona’s secretary of state, Katie Hobbs, whose office has authority over the administration of elections, told me that the conspiracy-driven audit “looks so comical you have to laugh at it sometimes.” But Hobbs, a Democrat, who is running for governor, warned, “It’s dangerous. It’s feeding the kind of misinformation that led to the January 6th insurrection.” QAnon followers have been celebrating the audit as the beginning of a “Great Awakening” that will eject Biden from the White House. She noted, “I’ve gotten death threats. I’ve had armed protestors outside my house. Every day, there is a total barrage of social media to our office. We’ve had to route our phones to voice mail so that no one has to listen to it. It can be really traumatizing. I feel beaten up.” She added, “But I’m not going to cave to their tactics—because I think they’re laying the groundwork to steal the 2024 elections.”

"One of the movement’s leaders is the Heritage Foundation, the prominent conservative think tank in Washington, D.C. It has been working with the American Legislative Exchange Council (alec)—a corporate-funded nonprofit that generates model laws for state legislators—on ways to impose new voting restrictions. Among those deep in the fight is Leonard Leo, a chairman of the Federalist Society, the legal organization known for its decades-long campaign to fill the courts with conservative judges. In February, 2020, the Judicial Education Project, a group tied to Leo, quietly rebranded itself as the Honest Elections Project, which subsequently filed briefs at the Supreme Court, and in numerous states, opposing mail-in ballots and other reforms that have made it easier for people to vote. "

" Jonathan Rauch, of the Brookings Institution, recently told The Economist, “We need to regard what’s happening now as epistemic warfare by some Americans on other Americans.” Pillars of the conservative establishment, faced with a changing U.S. voter population that threatens their agenda, are exploiting Trump’s contempt for norms to devise ways to hold on to power. Senator Whitehouse said of the campaign, “It’s a massive covert operation run by a small group of billionaire élites. These are powerful interests with practically unlimited resources who have moved on manipulating...[the right to vote]

I read the full thing - extremely grim. The next rounds of federal elections might be very difficult, and my pessimistic side fears it might be make or break of American democracy and/or union.

@Maticmaker - if you want to get a sense of the full breadth of Republican attempts at voter and indeed election suppression and the underlying motivations, it's all in there. It includes open insights into their anti-democratic thinking, such as this one:

A younger member of the organization, Charlie Kirk—a founder of Turning Point USA, which promotes right-wing ideas on school campuses—injected a note of optimism. He suggested that the pandemic, by closing campuses, would likely suppress voting among college students, a left-leaning bloc. “Please keep the campuses closed,” he said, to cheers. “Like, it’s a great thing!”

 

[Drifter]

Reporter baffled after Mike Lindell shows him 'evidence of nothing' in train wreck interview

 

[Kentonio]

Oh I get that. I’m commenting on the headspace of citizens. Knowingly voting for a party that strips rights.

They don't knowingly do so in most cases. A large majority of people are woefully ignorant of what politicians are actually doing, which is why those politicians shout so loud about freedom. They know most of their voters will never read the details.

 

[Maxii]

Reporter baffled after Mike Lindell shows him 'evidence of nothing' in train wreck interview

Scary how many nut jobs are just able to come out with these “investigations” and so many people blindly believe them.

 

[Maticmaker]

@Maticmaker - if you want to get a sense of the full breadth of Republican attempts at voter and indeed election suppression and the underlying motivations, it's all in there. It includes open insights into their anti-democratic thinking, such as this one:

Thanks. I have got a 'sense of voter manipulation' from the replies you and others have given, again much appreciated.
Whilst I can see the GOP 'guilt' if you like, is perhaps the greater one, because they have had years to 'gerrymander' etc., but I assume that in the States/Legislatures run by the Democrats there are similar 'dirty tricks' at play, nobody has clean hands?

It has been something of a shock to me, because over the years I have often watch British TV coverage of USA Presidential elections and for example, wondered why when they show maps of the US large chunks of blue coloured States appear on the East and West coasts, whilst most central states are Red (or is it the other way around?), now I have a better understanding.

As someone who believes the UK would do better with a written Constitution, this has given me cause to maybe re-think that notion!
As many of you who have responded to my questions seem to think, eventually a written constitution becomes 'dated' and does not automatically guarantee fairness any longer when the populations change "Government of the people, by the people, for the people" may not strictly be true any longer.

However as I have said previously the USA is still a relative young country, still perhaps shaking off the last vestige of frontier-land, you have still got time to put it right. Thanks again.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Reporter baffled after Mike Lindell shows him 'evidence of nothing' in train wreck interview

These people need to be arrested.

 

[Adisa]

Reporter baffled after Mike Lindell shows him 'evidence of nothing' in train wreck interview

Why hasn't someone taken this maniac to court?

 

[Drifter]

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[Dr. Dwayne]

So Chris there is saying it was a police officer?

 

[WPMUFC]

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It's just amazing how well the right-wing convinces people and changes narratives. There is video proof, shown all the time, Babbitt was trying to breech a protected area because they saw all the politicians escaping in that direction. Going by the well documented rhetoric of that day, she was likely seeking to breech makeshift defenses so she could capture and likely murder elected officials in the name of Trump/Q/insert ideology.

This has now been changed on the MAINSTREAM right to "leftists murder a patriotic american that was following the constitution", a full blown political martyr. A former president is trying to act as a "prosecutor" in "bringing the leftists to justice" for babbitt attempting a coup.

Do you folks see what is coming? What is being done to stop them?

 

[WI_Red]

It's just amazing how well the right-wing convinces people and changes narratives. There is video proof, shown all the time, Babbitt was trying to breech a protected area because they saw all the politicians escaping in that direction. Going by the well documented rhetoric of that day, she was likely seeking to breech makeshift defenses so she could capture and likely murder elected officials in the name of Trump/Q/insert ideology.

This has now been changed on the MAINSTREAM right to "leftists murder a patriotic american that was following the constitution", a full blown political martyr. A former president is trying to act as a "prosecutor" in "bringing the leftists to justice" for babbitt attempting a coup.

Do you folks see what is coming? What is being done to stop them?

Don't forget the "she was ambushed!" narrative even though there is video AND audio of her being repeatedly warned not to continue.

 

[Carolina Red]

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“Back the blue”

 

[WPMUFC]

Don't forget the "she was ambushed!" narrative even though there is video AND audio of her being repeatedly warned not to continue.

The republican conspiracies are getting worse, the political violence is getting worse, the politicians are accepting more of it. Whilst history is not an accurate predictor, i'm sure the full and complete capture of a mainstream political party by conspiracy and fascism ideology will get right back to focusing on tax policy ASAP

 

[matherto]

Repeat the lie enough and the truth will be rejected even with evidential proof.

 

[Cheimoon]

Don't forget the "she was ambushed!" narrative even though there is video AND audio of her being repeatedly warned not to continue.

With this, and also the sort of nonsense we talked about in the other thread (DeSantis on masks) - are you afraid? Someone also posted a link about all the ways the Republicans are undermining the electoral process. (@Carolina Red?) We're mostly laughing and rolling our eyes at these people on here, but if I were in the US, I think I'd actually be quite scared of where things are headed right now - and not in the sense of 'oh god, they'll enact bad policies'. (Although that does also ruin many, many lives. I don't want to pretend it's relatively harmless.)

 

[Carolina Red]

With this, and also the sort of nonsense we talked about in the other thread (DeSantis on masks) - are you afraid? Someone also posted a link about all the ways the Republicans are undermining the electoral process. (@Carolina Red?) We're mostly laughing and rolling our eyes at these people on here, but if I were in the US, I think I'd actually be quite scared of where things are headed right now - and not in the sense of 'oh god, they'll enact bad policies'. (Although that does also ruin many, many lives. I don't want to pretend it's relatively harmless.)

I’m not saying it’s the worst time to be alive as an American, but I am saying that there are a lot of other years I’d have rather been born.

 

[WI_Red]

I’m not saying it’s the worst time to be alive as an American, but I am saying that there are a lot of other years I’d have rather been born.

really? Which one? For as fecked up as we are now there are no other generations that were less fecked up.

 

[Carolina Red]

really? Which one? For as fecked up as we are now there are no other generations that were less fecked up.

I personally would have loved to have seen the Age of Sail.

 

[WI_Red]

I personally would have loved to have seen the Age of Sail.

Sure, until the first time you caught a whiff of any city or resident of said city at least if you were in he western world.

But I digressed. To address @Cheimoon's question I would say that there are different levels to my answer.
- On a personal level I am not really afraid. Being white and middle class will do that for you now and always has in America. It's so fecked up it makes me angry.
- On a family level I am worried for my nieces and nephews, we are leaving them a fecked up planet.
- On a public level I am afraid for my minority (by race/orientation/gender identity/religion/etc.) friends and fellow citizens. Being part of that group is dangerous now and always has been in America.
- On a political level I am terrified for where we are headed. The Democrat party seems to be fiddling while Rome is starting to burn. As a whole they do not seem to sense, or care, about stopping it. I honestly can not fathom what is going on in their heads. The problem might be the leadership is pretty much all old enough to have grown up when "America Was Great" and they might secretly want to go back there with Trump.

 

[Carolina Red]

Sure, until the first time you caught a whiff of any city or resident of said city at least if you were in he western world.

I didn’t ask what year you’d rather be born in.

 

[WI_Red]

I didn’t ask what year you’d rather be born in.

Fair enough. Just make sure you invent showering and deodorant. They may burn you as a witch, but if not you will be legendary.

 

[Cheimoon]

Sure, until the first time you caught a whiff of any city or resident of said city at least if you were in he western world.

But I digressed. To address @Cheimoon's question I would say that there are different levels to my answer.
- On a personal level I am not really afraid. Being white and middle class will do that for you now and always has in America. It's so fecked up it makes me angry.
- On a family level I am worried for my nieces and nephews, we are leaving them a fecked up planet.
- On a public level I am afraid for my minority (by race/orientation/gender identity/religion/etc.) friends and fellow citizens. Being part of that group is dangerous now and always has been in America.
- On a political level I am terrified for where we are headed. The Democrat party seems to be fiddling while Rome is starting to burn. As a whole they do not seem to sense, or care, about stopping it. I honestly can not fathom what is going on in their heads. The problem might be the leadership is pretty much all old enough to have grown up when "America Was Great" and they might secretly want to go back there with Trump.

Yeah, I can see all of those levels. I have to say I have a bit of the first as well, as a white, middle class guy with a government job, living in a place that's not prone to flooding (parts of Ottawa are, but not my area) and won't get crazy heatwaves as quickly. On a day-to-day basis, the struggles of others aren't as close to my mind as I think maybe they should be.

Anyway, what I think I meant to say is that I don't see this ending peacefully anymore. (As @Carolina Red is also indicating I think.) I know you had the Jan 6 events already, but I think things will turn much more ugly at the next few rounds of elections. I just don't see another direction at this point. And then the question is what happens after. Extreme as it might seem and exaggerated as it might sound, even the scenario from The Handmaid's Tale doesn't seem impossible to me right now.

 

[WPMUFC]

Anyway, what I think I meant to say is that I don't see this ending peacefully anymore. (As @Carolina Red is also indicating I think.) I know you had the Jan 6 events already, but I think things will turn much more ugly at the next few rounds of elections. I just don't see another direction at this point. And then the question is what happens after. Extreme as it might seem and exaggerated as it might sound, even the scenario from The Handmaid's Tale doesn't seem impossible to me right now.

I think it's pretty much a given in the US now that every federal election going forward that is not a republican win will be met with conspiratorial opposition to the result and violence to attempt to change the result.

 

[Pexbo]

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[Rado_N]

Is Kyle shouting or were Reuters?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

The Fruman Flip?

 

[WI_Red]

Is Kyle shouting or were Reuters?

I think there was a glitch in the KyleGriffin.exe file

We all agree that there is no Kyle Griffin right? Or are we all Kyle Griffin?

 

[ooeat0meoo]

Yeah I'll give you that. The activists are inspiring but the people in power have largely been cnuts.

Mind if I join in on this conversation?

I've met Lawrence Lessig who came the closest to inspiring the activist communities on the right and left to push for a constitutional convention, something like 10 years ago. For about 3 or 4 years after, progressives pushed real hard into this effort. One example was how powerful liberal groups posing as progressives backed the measure in Maryland, and at the last minute they sabotaged the legislation. After that happened, progressives became more concerned about the motives of the far-right.

Been tellin' myself I wouldn't join in on these conversations about politics in the US but I couldn't help myself here

 

[WI_Red]

Mind if I join in on this conversation?

I've met Lawrence Lessig who came the closest to inspiring the activist communities on the right and left to push for a constitutional convention, something like 10 years ago. For about 3 or 4 years after, progressives pushed real hard into this effort. One example was how powerful liberal groups posing as progressives backed the measure in Maryland, and at the last minute they sabotaged the legislation. After that happened, progressives became more concerned about the motives of the far-right.

Been tellin' myself I wouldn't join in on these conversations about politics in the US but I couldn't help myself here

Welcome to the club. I lurked for a decade before taking the plunge for the 2020 election. And COVID. I had to dive in for that.

 

[ooeat0meoo]

Welcome to the club. I lurked for a decade before taking the plunge for the 2020 election. And COVID. I had to dive in for that.

Yeah, well...

I'm convinced American populists are so heavily herded to the farthest right as we've ever seen in our history. They're going to win because all the money is behind the most insane thinking imaginable.

Hey, We had a good run for a few decades, that's fer sure

 

[WI_Red]

Yeah, well...

I'm convinced American populists are so heavily herded to the farthest right as we've ever seen in our history. They're going to win because all the money is behind the most insane thinking imaginable.

Hey, We had a good run for a few decades, that's fer sure

I am not ready to give up hope, but it does look grim. It is not hyperbole to say that the two biggest instigators to our current issue are Fox and Facebook. Living in Alabama saw it take root and begin corrupting in real time. If those forces can be overcome we have a chance.