That’s ridiculous why does he always eschew the chance to pass forward “into space” and ends up passing sideways straight into a player’s feet then?
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I think there's a difference between absolutely terrible and midlly disappointing. And I'd argue that Fred still isn't reaching the level. I hope VDB turns it around, I'm just not having high hopes for it given how poor he was.
We're evaluating him differently then - for me he wasn't absolutely terrible. There are a handful of games I can pick out where he was good, or very good. And some that he was anonymous or ineffective. On balance I don't look back and say he was absolutely terrible.
There is a lot of context behind his season, one being the manager's discovery of where his value lies, another being on the player to find his feet and gain continuity, and a final one on the circumstances being against him whereby he can't get consecutive game time.
Thiago is another example by the way, who was regarded as one of the best midfielders in the world mere months before joining Liverpool and looking absolutely atrocious before having a strong final third to the season. If a 180 turn can happen to players like him, I think it's not abnormal to happen to VDB.
I think a lot of the worry comes from the fact that he just seems like he is not suitable to the way we play and the position we need him to play in. If his career before he came here showed the same level he showed at Ajax just as a different type of player then we could hope that he was just settling in. The issue is that even if he gets to his best then it still probably doesn't fit in with our style of play.
Hoping that last season was just too much for a young lad moving abroad to a big club. Hopefully he kicks on this season because let's face it, he has nothing to lose, he can't be any worse
Yeah I think this is more the issue than his ability. Maybe there is work behind the scenes to have him in a role that suits us best.
I think it is a combination of the two:
A) Not very good,
B) Not very suitable for Man Utds style of play,
I know that we will not, but we probably should cut our losses quick (unless he looks very different in training, and based on the lack of minutes I doubt it).
That feeling of wanting to give him a chance - one more season - feels quite familiar, but it is so rare that it works out. We often see players needing time and developing, but it is very rare that we see a player looking so out of pace actually turning out to be very good.
A) Not very good,
B) Not very suitable for Man Utds style of play,
I know that we will not, but we probably should cut our losses quick (unless he looks very different in training, and based on the lack of minutes I doubt it).
That feeling of wanting to give him a chance - one more season - feels quite familiar, but it is so rare that it works out. We often see players needing time and developing, but it is very rare that we see a player looking so out of pace actually turning out to be very good.
I think most fans want him to succeed here, but the onus is really on Donny to show the fans something to get them excited about.
After a full season I couldn’t say what type of player he is tbh.
After a full season I couldn’t say what type of player he is tbh.
From the little I actually watched of him at Ajax I liked. If you said to me back then that he would be a united player next season and would mainly sat on the bench I wouldve laughed at you.
In his first few games for us he looked really neat in those cameos, quick touches and decent movement. There is a fecking great player in there but I'm just not sure if ole can get it out of him without changing the overall style of our play.
Hope he succeeds here. Those tweets above are very promising. We do have a great squad already imo. The strength in depth is quite impressive.
In his first few games for us he looked really neat in those cameos, quick touches and decent movement. There is a fecking great player in there but I'm just not sure if ole can get it out of him without changing the overall style of our play.
Hope he succeeds here. Those tweets above are very promising. We do have a great squad already imo. The strength in depth is quite impressive.
As a dutchie watching the Eredivisie for many years, I can tell you this. His ‘traditional’ role is being an attacking midfielder roaming around the box, creating spaces and assisting. During his Ajax period the trainer experimented with him being on the right position of the midfield in a more controlling space. If you take away his chance to roam around the 16 to create chances and to score he will not be able to fully realize his potential in my opinion. He can play on the central midfield position, but he won’t be able to have those runs in and around the 16. I actually think that Van de Beek will be a Kagawa type of transfer of a player not being able to fit in the system. I hope i will be proven wrong.
As you can see with the highlight video of all his goals at Ajax, he is usually always in or around the 16 when he scores.
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It's weird to see how he looked strong in Eredevisie.
During his time here at Premier League he didn't look as strong, in fact I felt like that's what he is lacking now.
He also looked strong in the Champions League... Spurs away I remember him explicitely being our best player as a number 10 around Tadic, a year later was great both Chelsea and Valancia away in the 8 position when Ziyech played at 10..
This is why I want him almost as a shadow striker/CAM in front of Pogba and Bruno and in between 2 inverted forwards like Rashford and Greenwood - atleast as one of our tactical flexibility type formations. VDB at the tip of a diamond with Pogba and Bruno free to get forward too.
Yep, Champions league is always more technical. That's why Ajax had some major successes in recent years.
Coming to premier league is different animal though, he needs time to adjust. Sancho might have this problem too, I'm afraid.
It's not A) mate. Anyone who starts for Holland, got Ajax to where they got is a damn good player
Some players, in particular midfielders I think, who come from perhaps lesser competitive divisions can struggle. Not to mention, moving from any country to another that is not in your native tongue can be tricky. I've actually moved from England to Holland and back...completely difference cultures and ways of living in certain aspects. Given his age, perhaps not being close to family means he's taken time to adjust.
On B) - Man Utd wouldn't have signed him either if he didn't suit our style of play, utterly ridiculous to honestly think that's how the club sign players.
I agree there's a degree of reservation as you'd have thought he's have been fighting more for a starting spot towards the end of the year, but as we were so competitive for the league perhaps Ole still felt Pogba / Fernandes was the better option.
But it's definitely make or break season. He starts, he assists / dominates midfield etc or if he's a sub for 90% of the matches I agree to cut losses
I don’t think it’s wrong to say that looking at our midfielders he is the most technically efficient and educated out of the lot of them bar perhaps Mata. However it just didn’t fit in to our team and it was awful to see the many great runs he made, spaces he found for no one to pick him out or see what he was thinking as to the next move.
Hopefully he’ll have adapted more,and learnt to fit his game in to what we do as personally I saw enough last year to think he should do well this season if given the chance.
Hopefully he’ll have adapted more,and learnt to fit his game in to what we do as personally I saw enough last year to think he should do well this season if given the chance.
What is technically efficient? Is it a new term to defend VDB's lack of any outstanding ability on the ball?
How about Klaassen? Poor for Everton and just decent for Werder Bremen in Bundesliga. He could be alot better than Klaassen, and still not be good enough.
Here's my take on Donny.
He was brought in for 2 reasons: be a back-up to Bruno and have an #8 when we switch to 4-3-3.
Last season Bruno never picked any major injuries and between the two, Fernandes is the superior, thus the little action Donny saw.
I expect him to play more minutes this season.
He was brought in for 2 reasons: be a back-up to Bruno and have an #8 when we switch to 4-3-3.
Last season Bruno never picked any major injuries and between the two, Fernandes is the superior, thus the little action Donny saw.
I expect him to play more minutes this season.
Its when people pass then move in to space and understand positioning on the pitch. Something that’s been around for decades just some people are better at recognising it than others and playing in that manner.
You also seriously think he lacks ability on the ball?
Fingers crossed for him but I’m really liking the determination
He hasn't shown it so far at his time at Utd. His short passing, long passing, shooting, first touch, through balls, mentality (negative) have all been below bar. He is a neat and tidy player but has no outstanding quality. He'll thrive in a proper football system where players play quick one touch small passes. At Utd, he'll struggle.
as a Dutchmen I can’t wait to have a Dutch player being able to stamp his part of a winning team again after Ruud , Van der Sar and Rvp.
Mentality is key so if he improves, it only benefits him obviously
Did you purposely leave out RVP?
How could I have forgotten himDid you purposely leave out RVP?
What a magical season that was. As an Dutchmen it’s amazing to realize that the goals of RVP contributed to SAF’s last premier league title.Why would he play more? A, Bruno will be out injured? B, Bruno will be less superior this season?
I think I view how he has played a lot differently. I don’t think he has played negatively but then I can see why maybe people think he does as he’s not spraying passes but that’s not his game and never has been. However there have been a good few occasions he has played perfect slide through balls in to great positions only for the forward not to have made the run or seen the pass.
I think his neat and tidy passing along with his ability to find space or take the ball under preasure in itself is an outstanding quality. I don’t disagree in a more neat and tidy team he’d probably perform much better and we are not that which was what my first post was alluding to. I would hope he will adapt a bit more as will the team as I think if we truly want to be more successful and a better team we need to play a bit more like one of these neat and tidy teams with better passing, control and movement within the midfield and attack.
See what happens this coming season if he is given minutes. Hopefully we move to some sort of 433 but without another signing and maybe Pogba changing position or leaving I don’t see how we will do it. Unless we sacrafice Shaw as an attacking threat.
He would fit our team better if we had more of the ball, which hopefully this season we will but realistically who is he supposed to dislodge in the team? He's definitely not a DM, and Pogba and Bruno will start most games they're fit.
I don't know what that means. Pogba is head and shoulders above any other midfielder we have when it comes to technical ability. VDB is neat and tidy.. And feck all else, based on what we've seen so far
The truth closer to that post from the Dutch fellow - that VDB is an attacking midfielder who has a knack of finding space in and around the box. Due to the challenges of the PL and his inability to impose himself on games he hasn't been able to do anything so far. But this idea that he's some brilliant super gifted player on the ball, I really don't know where it comes from.
There's definitely a player in there to be unlocked. A lot of people are saying he doesn't fit the system, which is correct as of now but I don't think Ole will, and should be sticking with the system we played last year, given who we've signed, and with that, I think there will be more of a role for Donny to play.
It may not be an automatic starting spot but with Varane, Sancho and hopefully a CDM coming in, it could mean without sacrificing balance, we can afford to play a double pivot behind the forwards when appropriate, as opposed to a double pivot in front of the defenders; Donny being one of two in the hole. Add a higher defensive line into the mix and we could start seeing an interesting paradigm shift whereby he can influence games more effectively, because his teammates, both his forwards and defenders, are on for the short, quick interchanges, effectively boxing teams in and pinging balls into each other at pace. If we want to get the best out of Sancho, we ought to be doing this. This is where Donny excels. Bringing others into play, back to goal, picture of the 18 yard box in his head, feeding runners and keeping the ball ticking over. When he did it for Ajax, it was truly art at times. I can see him and Sancho linking up rather beautifully this reason if given the chance. If I were a betting man I'd be putting money on it happening.
It may not be an automatic starting spot but with Varane, Sancho and hopefully a CDM coming in, it could mean without sacrificing balance, we can afford to play a double pivot behind the forwards when appropriate, as opposed to a double pivot in front of the defenders; Donny being one of two in the hole. Add a higher defensive line into the mix and we could start seeing an interesting paradigm shift whereby he can influence games more effectively, because his teammates, both his forwards and defenders, are on for the short, quick interchanges, effectively boxing teams in and pinging balls into each other at pace. If we want to get the best out of Sancho, we ought to be doing this. This is where Donny excels. Bringing others into play, back to goal, picture of the 18 yard box in his head, feeding runners and keeping the ball ticking over. When he did it for Ajax, it was truly art at times. I can see him and Sancho linking up rather beautifully this reason if given the chance. If I were a betting man I'd be putting money on it happening.
Pogba has terrible movement and terrible positioning. He might have a great touch, great pass and tremendous physical abilities and skills but his understanding of where to be and what to be doing is really lacking. Hence why I would say something like technical aspect of football DVB is much better as in has a higher footballing IQ or understanding than the likes of Bruno, Pogba, McT and Fred.
This doesn’t mean I think any of those guys are bad players just they wouldn’t be any use in certain teams because they’ve shown nothing like the ability or understanding of Passing and movement that other team rely so heavily on to move the opposition about. VDB is just the wrong type of player for how we currently play.
He's not a good fit in the double pivot, nor a good fit at #10, even if he could do a job in the latter position.
I think Donny's an #8, so playing a 4-3-3 with two attacking minded #8s would give the exact platform Donny needs to excel.
Pogba, Bruno and Donny will be the ones Ole would choose between for those two positions, which will open up more minutes for Donny..Fred and Lingard could also play there, but they would fall behind the former three I mentioned, in the pecking order.
I think Donny was brought with an eye for that scenario.
Of course I could be totally wrong and nothing of this would materialise, but that after connecting a few dots - that's what I saw.
At Ajax, statistically he was more productive as the attacking midfielder rather then the central midfielder playing next to the defensive midfielder Martinez.
During that remarkable 2018/2019 season people were even comparing him to Sneijder and Sneijder was a classical ‘10’ creating and scoring. He had players like Frenkie de Jong and Schone around him. The system they were playing made him flourish. In his controlled central midfield position, he was/is limited, because he wasn’t be able to make those trademark long runs and times passes in and around the 16.
With Bruno and Pogba being automatic starters (assuming Pogba stays) i don’t see much changing. There is Fred, McTominay and Matic. I can see Van den Beek jumping over Matic, but I cant see Ole dropping Fred or McTominay for Van den Beek, unless he improves dramatically and the other midfielders struggle.
Good attitude and vision but was never a tactical fit for us. If he can come good it'd be like a new signing.
I'm still really hopeful, he has potential and seems like a really good attitude.
We stick to a 4-2-3-1 and I honestly don't think it matters how strong he gets, he's clearly uncomfortable as the 10 in our system. Whilst he doesn't have the athleticism for the 2 in the pivot.
4-3-3 (as rumoured) and he may have a chance, I really do think he is a system player though.
4-3-3 (as rumoured) and he may have a chance, I really do think he is a system player though.
He needs a run of games. Like 10 games in a row. That he will never get. He will play 20 mins here. 40 there. Maybe even start a game against a lesser team or FA cup. He will play well for 20 minutes and everyone will say start him and then be quiet the next game and he will be dog sht again. Rinse and repeat all season
He's no less athletic than many players in the CM positions. Is he any less athletic than Scholes was? no.
You just need to be quick in the brain, have a good first touch and know how to position yourself. He can do that fine.
His main issue was his stamina towards the end of matches, but that'll improve once he gets used to the pace of the league.
I think his passing range is lacking too.
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