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Litch

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We're talking purely about DVB, not deeper issues.

You stated we wouldn't have lost if Mctominay played instead, so that means DVB was the problem when he clearly wasn't. He wasn't even on the pitch when we conceded :lol: bigger picture indeed.
Believe it or not, football is all about opinions. Didn't say DVB was the problem, said McFred wouldn't have been better. Offer what ever argument you want, your entitled to your opinion, makes it no more of a fact stupid laughing face or not.
 

Bebestation

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Unfortunately he plays like he does at at CAM at CM.

He plays like a shadow striker kind of running behind the oppositions back constantly making him be in a position that is too hard to receive a pass from his team mates.

He is not a good enough CM over Pogba Mctominay and Fred.

I think as a more further forward player he will be better but its not like the competition is easy.
 

Andersons Dietician

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Not a great game to judge him in last night with the way things panned out, however I would have left him on and taken off one of Ronaldo, Fernandes or Pogba after the red. Not him or Sancho. I felt Van De Beek would do a better job at holding onto the ball than any of the other 3 which is what we needed at that point. I really do think we would have a better go at getting a result after the red had he stayed on, and had the substitutions been better themselves.
I kinda feel the same but it’s a big call to take say Bruno off instead, although I kinda feel like Donny would have allowed us to maintain a better sense of control and hopefully move us up the field to create more chances.

I think the tactical changes and subs were questionable most of the night.

Personally to me Donny is not a 6 and never will be. He needs to play as an 8 in a team that is good in possesion and can pass it about. It’s just a waste in our team at this moment in time.
 

Dve

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Might have to do with the fact that Fred and Pogba were both being useless in this game but sure, it's VDB's fault despite outplaying them.
In your opinion, that is. I saw Fred winning the ball back for us on several occasions, Donny not so much.
 

Dr Foo

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I thought he was quite decent yesterday. Solid, calm, made defensive blocks, even made some long passes. We shouldn't have left Fred alone in second half, so VDB shouldn't have been taken off, this surrendering control. Ole should have made a call to take off one of Pogba/Bruno/Ronaldo instead. Quite surprised at criticism of him for yesterday
 

RedRonaldo

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I actually think we could try him more as no.8. He isn’t too bad, and seems could pass the ball well enough, and doesn’t shy away from putting a tackle. We don’t have many better options to be honest.
 

MattofManchester

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In your opinion, that is. I saw Fred winning the ball back for us on several occasions, Donny not so much.
Fred excelled in the second half where he was played to his strengths, given we didn't bother to attack.
When given no time on the ball and tasked with making challenges, he's brilliant.
However in the first 45 he was not. He got bullied and shrugged off at least twice, lost the ball many times and my main memory of him in the first 45 was trying to play a pass to Ronaldo but instead kicking it out for a throw in.
 

Highfather_24

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Its the usual cycle with Donny. When he doesnt play, people are up in arms in every match threads crying about him not playing. When he plays, he is written off as "not good enough, nothing player".
 

MrBest

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This boy is a confidence player, he needs regular game time to show and build on what he can do. 1,000 mins in his first season was a joke, 51 minutes in 5 games is also a joke. I really think he should move on before his career drops further. How Fred stayed on over him is just really confusing.
 

The United

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I kinda feel the same but it’s a big call to take say Bruno off instead, although I kinda feel like Donny would have allowed us to maintain a better sense of control and hopefully move us up the field to create more chances.

I think the tactical changes and subs were questionable most of the night.

Personally to me Donny is not a 6 and never will be. He needs to play as an 8 in a team that is good in possesion and can pass it about. It’s just a waste in our team at this moment in time.
Donny has never shown any sense of control in any game he played for us.

He is a final 3rd player. But yeah keeping him in the team when we needed to fight hard in deep area and would not spend much time up front is just insightful stuff from some people here.
 

roonster09

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Donny has never shown any sense of control in any game he played for us.

He is a final 3rd player. But yeah keeping him in the team when we needed to fight hard in deep area and would not spend much time up front is just insightful stuff from some people here.
The player Donny is (and the one who plays for us) and the player Donny few assume he is, is very different. People always come up with "he will help us progress well as a team, he will be a better link player, he will help us retain possession" when he has not shown any of that for us. Anyone can retain possession when all they have to do is pass to the next player when they have good space.

Even 11 v 11, he was average.
 

VP89

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The player Donny is (and the one who plays for us) and the player Donny few assume he is, is very different. People always come up with "he will help us progress well as a team, he will be a better link player, he will help us retain possession" when he has not shown any of that for us. Anyone can retain possession when all they have to do is pass to the next player when they have good space.

Even 11 v 11, he was average.
His remit was such that he just had to keep the ball ticking in midfield. Pogba and Bruno were both the advanced creators with Ronaldo drifting from the left among other areas. I don't think he was anything special but I didn't have an expectation for any player in such a role to be in the first place.
 

roonster09

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His remit was such that he just had to keep the ball ticking in midfield. Pogba and Bruno were both the advanced creators with Ronaldo drifting from the left among other areas. I don't think he was anything special but I didn't have an expectation for any player in such a role to be in the first place.
Ticking in midfield doesn't mean just pass the ball to nearest player, he should be the one who should progress the play with passing between the lines, spreading the play. I mean if all we need is just pass the ball to next player, why do we need this player who isn't even defensively strong.
 

VP89

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Ticking in midfield doesn't mean just pass the ball to nearest player, he should be the one who should progress the play with passing between the lines, spreading the play. I mean if all we need is just pass the ball to next player, why do we need this player who isn't even defensively strong.

Looking at all of his touches, it's apparent to me that he's often looking to either play forward passes between the lines or spread the play. In his passes that go backwards, they tend to be in a manner where he's completely switching the play to the other flank to a higher up Maguire, such that it opens up space for the flank that Shaw/Pogba are operating on.

I don't see him as someone who was only looking to keep it simple, I think he was often trying to spread the play, pass down the middle or generally get stuck in. I think someone distinctively average would be generally anonymous but I recall him being more active than that in trying to get the ball moving into areas with more space, or being more direct in passes through the lines. Sure he had the shorter 5 yard passes too, but every midfielder would. I also thought he was fine defensively.
 

roonster09

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Looking at all of his touches, it's apparent to me that he's often looking to either play forward passes between the lines or spread the play. In his passes that go backwards, they tend to be in a manner where he's completely switching the play to the other flank to a higher up Maguire, such that it opens up space for the flank that Shaw/Pogba are operating on.

I don't see him as someone who was only looking to keep it simple, I think he was often trying to spread the play, pass down the middle or generally get stuck in. I think someone distinctively average would be generally anonymous but I recall him being more active than that in trying to get the ball moving into areas with more space, or being more direct in passes through the lines. Sure he had the shorter 5 yard passes too, but every midfielder would. I also thought he was fine defensively.
Fair enough, he was better than how I remembered (with all the emotions involved while watching), I thought he was poor but looks like he was average with couple of good passes. I didn't see anything that Fred, McTominay couldn't have done and they offer more to the team.

Anyways this is a weird game to judge players with the pitch where ball wouldn't stop and players couldn't stop falling. Hopefully he will get chances in PL and he makes his mark.
 

VP89

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Fair enough, he was better than how I remembered (with all the emotions involved while watching), I thought he was poor but looks like he was average with couple of good passes. I didn't see anything that Fred, McTominay couldn't have done and they offer more to the team.

Anyways this is a weird game to judge players with the pitch where ball wouldn't stop and players couldn't stop falling. Hopefully he will get chances in PL and he makes his mark.
Yeah I do completely agree with where you're coming from. Although I felt he was trying to do different things, I did not find him anything special either, and agree we need a much better sample of minutes to judge from. With the system Ole plays because of Bruno/Pogba/Ronaldo having complete creative freedom, I reckon it's best if he reigns himself back slightly and keeps it simple to benefit the team.
 

Cnaiür urs Skiötha

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Looking at all of his touches, it's apparent to me that he's often looking to either play forward passes between the lines or spread the play. In his passes that go backwards, they tend to be in a manner where he's completely switching the play to the other flank to a higher up Maguire, such that it opens up space for the flank that Shaw/Pogba are operating on.

I don't see him as someone who was only looking to keep it simple, I think he was often trying to spread the play, pass down the middle or generally get stuck in. I think someone distinctively average would be generally anonymous but I recall him being more active than that in trying to get the ball moving into areas with more space, or being more direct in passes through the lines. Sure he had the shorter 5 yard passes too, but every midfielder would. I also thought he was fine defensively.
Thanks for that, he really made a few good blocks. Also he seems physically stronger than Fred. In fact I cannot really tell what attributes exactly would make you play Fred before him.
 

MvG

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Fair enough, he was better than how I remembered (with all the emotions involved while watching), I thought he was poor but looks like he was average with couple of good passes. I didn't see anything that Fred, McTominay couldn't have done and they offer more to the team.

Anyways this is a weird game to judge players with the pitch where ball wouldn't stop and players couldn't stop falling. Hopefully he will get chances in PL and he makes his mark.
And the result. I really think that is clouding many views of his performance. On the whole I thought he was quite good and surprisingly so defensively. But yeah that pitch didn’t help matters for us at all.

To add some balance, one critique would be his movement in the build up. He seemed to almost do the opposite of showing for the ball at times. And if he was moving to make space for others he didn’t then show after the subsequent pass was made. It was odd. Not sure what he was doing.
 

MadMike

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5-3-1 didn´t work, while 3-5-1 might have - with the same changes made. But we were unable to get hold of the ball and hence pressed back into a 5-3-1, whether that was the idea or not.
It might have under different circumstances. If 3 at the back was a system we trained and regularly played in, like Chelsea. Or if the midfield consisted of players who are good at keeping possession, not Fred, Pogba and Bruno.

I don’t think you can just throw a 3rd defender at the back and make it work regardless of training and personnel. We didn’t, anyway.
 
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MadMike

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Looking at all of his touches, it's apparent to me that he's often looking to either play forward passes between the lines or spread the play. In his passes that go backwards, they tend to be in a manner where he's completely switching the play to the other flank to a higher up Maguire, such that it opens up space for the flank that Shaw/Pogba are operating on.

I don't see him as someone who was only looking to keep it simple, I think he was often trying to spread the play, pass down the middle or generally get stuck in. I think someone distinctively average would be generally anonymous but I recall him being more active than that in trying to get the ball moving into areas with more space, or being more direct in passes through the lines. Sure he had the shorter 5 yard passes too, but every midfielder would. I also thought he was fine defensively.
That’s actually a good performance in context. Firstly, it’s his first start in ages. Secondly he’s playing at the base of the midfield with Fred a position he hasn’t played too often. And thirdly he is doing his job fine when others are losing their heads around him. Pogba was horrendous in that game for example, failing to do the simple things right. Bruno was the same apart from his assist.

VDB keeps the ball moving, he isn’t dawdling, he isn’t wasteful and he does his job defensively. It isn’t amazing, but it’s pretty decent.

EDIT: He completed 23 out of 25 passes according to who scored for a 92% accuracy. Highest in our team. I’d argue you need someone safe in midfield to keep the ball moving when you have Pogba and Bruno taking all those risks.
 
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Dve

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That’s actually a good performance in context. Firstly, it’s his first start in ages. Secondly he’s playing at the base of the midfield with Fred a position he hasn’t played too often. And thirdly he is doing his job fine when others are losing their heads around him. Pogba was horrendous in that game for example, failing to do the simple things right. Bruno was the same apart from his assist.

VDB keeps the ball moving, he isn’t dawdling, he isn’t wasteful and he does his job defensively. It isn’t amazing, but it’s pretty decent.
Decent enough, but this is edited, mind, and only shows his good involvements, not all of them.
 

Himannv

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I thought he played fine and should definitely be an option in midfield. The way the game played out was not his fault. I think he looked to be creative and was fine in terms of the positions he took up when we had the ball and his distribution. I'm not quite as convinced when we didn't have the ball and were down to 10 men though - not the kind of situation where he can shine.
 

MadMike

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Decent enough, but this is edited, mind, and only shows his good involvements, not all of them.
Yeah, obviously we need to bear that in mind. It is highlights, so to speak.

But, like I said, 23/25 passing (92%) including 4/4 long balls (100%). Defensively; 1 successful tackle, 2 interceptions and 1 block. Only Maguire, Fred and Dalot had more than him and the former two played 90 mins. In fact, I believe in the first half he had the highest defensive contribution in the team. Highlights aside, the stats themselves paint a picture of a rather measured and accomplished performance from a much maligned player.

He didn't deserve to be hauled off based on his performance. Retaining both Pogba and Bruno on the pitch, in a match where we were 1 man down and being endlessly pressured, backfired. I'm fairly convinced that if Pogba was taken off for Matic, instead of VDB for Lindelof, we would have slowed the game down and achieved much better control of the football in the second half. Therefore protecting the defence better by not allowing as many YB attacks.
 

Andersons Dietician

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Donny has never shown any sense of control in any game he played for us.

He is a final 3rd player. But yeah keeping him in the team when we needed to fight hard in deep area and would not spend much time up front is just insightful stuff from some people here.
The player Donny is (and the one who plays for us) and the player Donny few assume he is, is very different. People always come up with "he will help us progress well as a team, he will be a better link player, he will help us retain possession" when he has not shown any of that for us. Anyone can retain possession when all they have to do is pass to the next player when they have good space.

Even 11 v 11, he was average.
Sorry but these are very simplistic views on football. Not every ball has to be forward or defence splitting. Passing it back then moving to create a better angle or passing option or just move the opposition defenders is a very important part of football which is something Donny does for us very well. He gives options for quick fluid passing witch many of out other players do not provide. Fred is another who does this, simple pass and move, giving options to people on the ball is generally how elite football is done.

Also Donny didn’t just arrive in Manchester and start playing football then. He had a life in football before joining United, where he happened to play and be a key figure in a very good passing team.

Donny himself however isn’t going to suddenly make us a better team in possesion. If anyone watches our games with out the “direct football” blinders you can see when he plays he is a very under-utilised player when on the pitch.

Takes up great positions and is looking to make moves happen but again its Just not what we as a team are set up to do, however it’s an evolution that will have to happen if we have any realistic dreams on winning stuff. We need to find the balance between being ultra direct and being able to control a game and just take it away from the opposition. That’s how we as a team become better.

As for @The United I’m sorry but I just can’t figure out how you can’t wrap your head around that by keeping possesion we can squeeze the space and move ourselves as a team further up the pitch moving everyone further forward closer to goal to make things happen. Carelessly punting the ball forward for 1 man to try and work his socks off to win against 2 or even 4 defenders and a keeper is not that effective a game plan.

I mean 1 option or 4 options up top by keeping possesion what do you think would get the better result?
 

MattofManchester

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Fair enough, he was better than how I remembered
And the result. I really think that is clouding many views of his performance.
This is part of the problem. It seems a lot of fans don't have any idea how he played and are claiming he was awful, when he frankly wasn't. I paid special attention to him, and I was particularly delighted that he showed potential as a 6, given it could mean we will have a deep midfielder who can fecking pass and doesn't lose the ball repeatedly.

This view is further compounded by the views by many fans that Fred was amazing. In the second half, I will give you that, but in the first, he was very poor. His wayward passing caused YB to have a decent attempt on goal and he was bypassed by attackers more than once. There's criticism for Donny passing "safe", which was nonsense, but Fred's passing was most often to wide and back, to the defender and back. I don't get the double standards for each midfielder.
That was Donny's first start in a very long time for us and he was able to match Fred on performance. He was one of two players who I didn't see lose the ball repeatedly. If that is not a good sign, I don't know what is.
There also seems to be an issue where people expect Pogba's output from him. He is not Pogba. But where he does succeed is that he offers greater work rate and more defensive stability. Let's be real here. Pogba gives us great offensive output at CM, but we are so defensively open, the risks outweigh the rewards.

Looking back, Fred got a ridiculous amount of chances to become a regular, as has Martial when on form and looking back so did Pereira and Lingard. We have a much better midfielder in our ranks who has been left to rot, but for some reason we are expecting some ridiculous kind of performance in a game where just about nobody else around him performed.

Based on his performance, he deserves another chance, and criticism has to be laid if he is treated in the same manner as last season.
 

MUFCAFC

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I’d like to see him get a decent run in the side, I feel like he needs it in order for us to start seeing *really* impressive performances from him...
 

roonster09

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This is part of the problem. It seems a lot of fans don't have any idea how he played and are claiming he was awful, when he frankly wasn't. I paid special attention to him, and I was particularly delighted that he showed potential as a 6, given it could mean we will have a deep midfielder who can fecking pass and doesn't lose the ball repeatedly.
I don't know how you can say "Lot of fans don't have any idea how he played" and then come up with "you were delighted with what he showed".
 

Andersons Dietician

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Looking back, Fred got a ridiculous amount of chances to become a regular, as has Martial when on form and looking back so did Pereira and Lingard. We have a much better midfielder in our ranks who has been left to rot, but for some reason we are expecting some ridiculous kind of performance in a game where just about nobody else around him performed.

Based on his performance, he deserves another chance, and criticism has to be laid if he is treated in the same manner as last season.
His problem is that he is an 8, that works best in a slick passing and moving team which we aren’t and in the positions he probably would be able to find a home he has Pogba and Bruno who are ahead of him. So I can totally see why it’s hard to get him in the team.

He certainly deserves more chances in my eyes but to be honest I just see those going to waste unless make use of his actual skill set.
 

roonster09

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Are you not trying to imply here that Donny is a very simple player doing things that any old player can do by passing 5 yards, back sideways or taking the easy option? If not I apologise.
I said what he is and what people assume he is, is very different. He is not someone who links the play well, he isn't the player who plays progressive passes ticking the game. He is a CM/AM hybrid with limited skillset.

Also when anyone says "anyone can play simple 5 yards pass when in acres of space" it doesn't mean they expect defensive splitting passes all the time. He doesn't even move well in midfield. Apart from Fred, none of our CMs move well off the ball.

Also yes, Donny is a very simple player. His best attribute is off the ball movement and flicks near the box.
 

MattofManchester

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I don't know how you can say "Lot of fans don't have any idea how he played" and then come up with "you were delighted with what he showed".
I don't know how you can make an attempt to be condescending but fail to read the full aspect where I said "delighted he showed ""potential"".

Thank you for proving my point. That people see what they want to see.
 

roonster09

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I don't know how you can make an attempt to be condescending but fail to read the full aspect where I said "delighted he showed ""potential"".

Thank you for proving my point. That people see what they want to see.
That's ironic.
 

Andersons Dietician

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I said what he is and what people assume he is, is very different. He is not someone who links the play well, he isn't the player who plays progressive passes ticking the game. He is a CM/AM hybrid with limited skillset.

Also when anyone says "anyone can play simple 5 yards pass when in acres of space" it doesn't mean they expect defensive splitting passes all the time. He doesn't even move well in midfield. Apart from Fred, none of our CMs move well off the ball.

Also yes, Donny is a very simple player. His best attribute is off the ball movement and flicks near the box.
See having seen him play at Ajax I’m going to disagree. He is good at linking play, he has good movement even for us, it’s just made to look poor by the way in which we play as we don’t pass at a quick enough tempo to take advantage of his movement.

Maybe some just equate spraying passes 40-50 yards as linking play.

Like to me when I watch him I see a lot of great runs where he needs the ball quick and Just never gets it so then the window is gone and there is no chance to get the ball to him after that. In general that’s a very bad habit all our players have. Hanging on to the ball looking for that one pass until the easy and best option is totally gone meaning they have to reset And start again.

I’m by no means saying he is a superstar but there is a lot of Luke Shaw vibes for me here where people can’t see the actual qualities he has as it just doesn’t fit our direct nature of football.
 

roonster09

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See having seen him play at Ajax I’m going to disagree. He is good at linking play, he has good movement even for us, it’s just made to look poor by the way in which we play as we don’t pass at a quick enough tempo to take advantage of his movement.

Maybe some just equate spraying passes 40-50 yards as linking play.

Like to me when I watch him I see a lot of great runs where he needs the ball quick and Just never gets it so then the window is gone and there is no chance to get the ball to him after that. In general that’s a very bad habit all our players have. Hanging on to the ball looking for that one pass until the easy and best option is totally gone meaning they have to reset And start again.

I’m by no means saying he is a superstar but there is a lot of Luke Shaw vibes for me here where people can’t see the actual qualities he has as it just doesn’t fit our direct nature of football.
What you said, I saw it happening for Sancho. He plays the ball and moves to space to receive the pass but our players won't play the quick pass. They delay everything.

Haven't seen the same movement from De beek, especially in midfield. Fred is the only CM who always shows up for the pass no matter how good or bad day he is having.
 

11101

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He was alright but again just a bit passive and happy to play the obvious pass. If you're not going to be the player that's making things happen, you'd better be working your socks off like Fred does.

Either way, that was probably his big chance and it was taken away from him. Ole wont risk him in what are now all must win CL games.



Looking at all of his touches, it's apparent to me that he's often looking to either play forward passes between the lines or spread the play. In his passes that go backwards, they tend to be in a manner where he's completely switching the play to the other flank to a higher up Maguire, such that it opens up space for the flank that Shaw/Pogba are operating on.

I don't see him as someone who was only looking to keep it simple, I think he was often trying to spread the play, pass down the middle or generally get stuck in. I think someone distinctively average would be generally anonymous but I recall him being more active than that in trying to get the ball moving into areas with more space, or being more direct in passes through the lines. Sure he had the shorter 5 yard passes too, but every midfielder would. I also thought he was fine defensively.
50 seconds - not the worst, but he had so many options forward instead of passing to Maguire
1.03 - run into the space, drag some players towards you
1.23 - turn and look up, he had so much space to run into there
1.30 - took the beginnings of an attack and passed it back to Maguire

None of these are the worst things in isolation but it all reminds me of Rio saying how Roy Keane ripped into him when he first joined for taking the easy option. DVB still takes the easiest pass he sees instead of looking for what might be better.
 

VP89

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He was alright but again just a bit passive and happy to play the obvious pass. If you're not going to be the player that's making things happen, you'd better be working your socks off like Fred does.

Either way, that was probably his big chance and it was taken away from him. Ole wont risk him in what are now all must win CL games.




50 seconds - not the worst, but he had so many options forward instead of passing to Maguire
1.03 - run into the space, drag some players towards you
1.23 - turn and look up, he had so much space to run into there
1.30 - took the beginnings of an attack and passed it back to Maguire

None of these are the worst things in isolation but it all reminds me of Rio saying how Roy Keane ripped into him when he first joined for taking the easy option. DVB still takes the easiest pass he sees instead of looking for what might be better.
Honestly that's really micro analysing his performance. I don't think he took the easiest pass in most of those situations, and the decision making for a midfielder is also on trying to help stretch the opponent. A lot of his simple switches to the other flank were done so to move the players to the other side and help create pockets as they work to cover the other side. It's really not all about what's an easy pass or difficult pass in isolation. Rather it's about the right pass, and I think in most cases he did this.