Dutch Government Resigns

Dr. Funkenstein

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Another one for the 2020/21 list of events that would be HUGE news in any other year but barely causes a raised eyebrow now. Absolutely crazy story.
A shame the news has to be distorted to fit a narrative again.
The fact that some parents were targeted for investigation by tax officials because they had dual nationality also underscored long-standing criticisms of systemic racism in the Netherlands.
There is no long standing criticism of systemic racism. That's entirely down to this years hype because in some backward country overseas a suspect died in custody and a rather intimidating and heavily subsidized group of activists has gained momentum for their dubious agenda by pretending it's anything like the USA or even the UK here, because all the West is the same or something, all whites are racist, stuff like that. There was no mention of systemic racism prior to this spring, and citizienship is not race of course.

This was huge breach of the rule of law which is the result of this and previous VVD-governments purposely undermining the rule of law for the past 10 years, after CDA-governments (together with the VVD often) beeing very sloppy and often indifferent to the rule of law prior to 2010. The problem was not that people were investigated, the problem was that they didn't stand a chance once against a lying and cheating bureaucracy once they were subject to investigation and assumed to be guilty and had to depend on the Dutch judicial system that is held in high regard by most because they have no idea about their incompetence and lack of integrity that has crept in, also mostly in the last 20 years.

Using dual citizenship data was simply without legal base and therefore not allowed. You can't use data unless there is a law that explicitely allows for it. So they got a slap on the wrist by the privacy board, a wrist slapping institution. That's really a minor and rather unharmful side issue. You can even question whether it should be allowed because it's an added fraud risk simply because foreign citizenship makes people get away with robbing the Dutch welfare system, unlike those who remain in the Netherlands, there is no escaping the Dutch collectors and they are harsh as this news shows.

Always seemed like a proper troupe of cnuts.

Very unpopular here, for their finance minister stereotyped southern countries for spending Money on "drinks and women" a few years ago. This year, again, they were quick to ask for an audit to Spain's finances early in the pandemic when Spain said it wouldn't be able to cope with the pandemic without external help. Only for the Dutch themselves to ask Germany for help when their hospitals got full a couple of months of later.
I agree Dijsselbloem is a proper cnut. He calls himself a social democrat, but acted like a bailiff for the parasites of the financial sector that got Greece and the EU in this awkward position in the first place, what he did wat both antidemocratic and antisocial.

I also agree he should have picked his words more carefully. As a social democrat he should have told the truth: Mario Draghi is a capo, he should be in jail because at Goldman Sachs he was responsible for the fraudulent financial contstruction that got Greece into the euro. As a social democratic he should have said that those who save money have money, and the banks, the ECB and the governments that are incapable of orderly finances should keep their steeling fingers out of Dutch pensions and other savings.

Basically the Southern-European banks are on life support by the ECB printing thousands of billions of euro's and handing it to them, pretending it is to boost the economy. This is of course at the expense of interest and therefore savings and pensions, and beneficial to those who are in debt becasue they have spent more on booze and girls than they earned. It's not about paying more to the EU budget than poorer countries, allthough the Dutch pay much more than is fair, at least it's out in the open. It's the silent embezzlement through the euro by the unchecked ECB that has no justification whatsoever. That money isn't going to poor Southern-Europeans, that's money taken from relatively poor or middle class Dutch by bankers to give to bankers, relatively rich people.

What Rutte should have said this year at the covid recovery fund meeting is:
- How dare you use covid as a pretext for another theft of Dutch money and undermining support for the covid policy and the EU?
- How dare you North-Italians who are richer than the Dutch claim the solidarity with the poorer Southern-Italians that the North-Italians themselves have managed in the 150 years that Italy exists?
- How dare you France and Spain and Italy use that Dutch money to keep letting your people retire much earlier while making the Dutch retire later and have less of pension?
Of course he didn't because Rutte is a neoliberal, he believes the country is doing great when the international corporate world can make a lot of money from it. He runs it like a colony that has to be exploited.

Since the euro, the Dutch have fallen behind about 25% compared to the Danes who were smart enough not to be part of the euro. The euro is a political project to serve the financial sector and 'European' integration, and a financial disaster for both the Greeks and the Dutch, and many others. It's not like it's meant to beneficial to the people of Spain and other Southern countries, despite the short term benefits, the crumbs thrown at you that you so gratefully and somewhat triumphantly devour.

65% of the Dutch voted against the current EU in a referendum, of course it still is the current EU because a project that is not to serve the people can't be bothered by democracy. About half of the population wasn't in favour of the euro either if I remember the numbers correctly, and they were right because besides a massive failure in general, the euro has taken a massive chunk out of Dutch savings.
 

vic090482

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Should've resigned weeks ago, they fecked over a lot of people with this inquisition of so called benefit cheats and tries to hide responsibility as best they could. Mark Rutte with his innocent cheeky smiling. He's the quintessential wolf in sheeps clothing.
As a foreigner living in the NL, my first impressions of Rutte was that he was a brilliant leader (with him cycling to work etc.) but having lived here for about 4 years now, I've changed my mind. Too bad most of the same politicians will be elected again in March with little to no repercussions for what they've put those families through. Also, there is no recourse to the victims? I've read that each family will get 30000 Euros each, when some of them were forced to pay back much larger amounts to the tax office.
 

Eendracht maakt macht

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As a foreigner living in the NL, my first impressions of Rutte was that he was a brilliant leader (with him cycling to work etc.) but having lived here for about 4 years now, I've changed my mind. Too bad most of the same politicians will be elected again in March with little to no repercussions for what they've put those families through. Also, there is no recourse to the victims? I've read that each family will get 30000 Euros each, when some of them were forced to pay back much larger amounts to the tax office.
That’s spot on mate.
 

Dr. Funkenstein

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As a foreigner living in the NL, my first impressions of Rutte was that he was a brilliant leader (with him cycling to work etc.) but having lived here for about 4 years now, I've changed my mind.
Allthough I kind of like his personal style when it's not faked, the cycling is typical for his position in Dutch politics. We're running on social-democratic fumes which makes it appear like a well organized well run country, but most of it is inhereted from more social-democratic times and he's taking the credits while in the process of destruction and sell out. If it had been up to his party, cycling in the Netherlands would have been as bad as anywhere else and there wouldn't have been overtourism in Amsterdam because his party would have flattened it for 12 lane roads, parking spaces and big shopping centres. Now of course the VVD celebrates cycling and there's full consensus at every layer of government, but only despite his VVD.

Too bad most of the same politicians will be elected again in March with little to no repercussions for what they've put those families through. Also, there is no recourse to the victims? I've read that each family will get 30000 Euros each, when some of them were forced to pay back much larger amounts to the tax office.
Rutte's government is not just malicious, they are incompetent too. They have decided that during the investigation of what everyone of the victims has been wrongly ordered to pay and what damages have to be compensated, they would all get 30.000 so they would get out of immediate financial trouble. But they forgot the change the rules and now the tax office has to claim that 30.000 to lower the outstanding debt because that's what the computer and the law says. The debt is still in the books....
 

Eendracht maakt macht

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Allthough I kind of like his personal style when it's not faked, the cycling is typical for his position in Dutch politics. We're running on social-democratic fumes which makes it appear like a well organized well run country, but most of it is inhereted from more social-democratic times and he's taking the credits while in the process of destruction and sell out. If it had been up to his party, cycling in the Netherlands would have been as bad as anywhere else and there wouldn't have been overtourism in Amsterdam because his party would have flattened it for 12 lane roads, parking spaces and big shopping centres. Now of course the VVD celebrates cycling and there's full consensus at every layer of government, but only despite his VVD.

Rutte's government is not just malicious, they are incompetent too. They have decided that during the investigation of what everyone of the victims has been wrongly ordered to pay and what damages have to be compensated, they would all get 30.000 so they would get out of immediate financial trouble. But they forgot the change the rules and now the tax office has to claim that 30.000 to lower the outstanding debt because that's what the computer and the law says. The debt is still in the books....
Also the Rutte doctrine meaning no communication with him and not much within ministries shall be put in writing. So the parliment can’t do the task they’ve been chosen for, controlling the government. He just says he didn’t know. Its disgraceful.
 

KirkDuyt

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As a foreigner living in the NL, my first impressions of Rutte was that he was a brilliant leader (with him cycling to work etc.) but having lived here for about 4 years now, I've changed my mind. Too bad most of the same politicians will be elected again in March with little to no repercussions for what they've put those families through. Also, there is no recourse to the victims? I've read that each family will get 30000 Euros each, when some of them were forced to pay back much larger amounts to the tax office.
Yeah, he's very good at the optics with the boyish smile and regular guy image. Covid is a gift for him, he can play the stately leader who cares about his citizens, he'd make a great actor really.
 

TwoSheds

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It's the same here but worse, we have the second oldest population in Europe I think.

What I meant by demographics as main driver is that I think it won't be nearly enough. The years people gain in unproductive life expectancy are far more than they gain in healthy aging. Most 70 year olds I see are not fit for most labours. I guess you'll find some jobs for some of them, but it will always (and quite naturally) be lower productivity, so lower pay, a blow to expectations.

It will have to probably be coupled with severely reduced pensions, and since it's politically not viable to mess with actual or soon to be pensioners, it will be the young footing that bill. People 30 years older than me hit the jackpot. Most retired techers here win more in pension than entry level teachers - and entry level is 10 to 15 years. People with paid houses and raised kids go on cruises, whilst new teachers struggle to even rent a house.
Cutting those pensions was a choice of course - made by the EU and your politicians together. If Portuguese citizens stood up for themselves more in politics then these problems would be lessened. The fact that teachers' pay and pensions barely went up for was it 10 or 11 years post recession was a scandal, but I think Portuguese people just got on with it, which is admirable in some ways but also a great pity.
 

Maagge

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There is no long standing criticism of systemic racism. That's entirely down to this years hype because in some backward country overseas a suspect died in custody and a rather intimidating and heavily subsidized group of activists has gained momentum for their dubious agenda by pretending it's anything like the USA or even the UK here, because all the West is the same or something, all whites are racist, stuff like that. There was no mention of systemic racism prior to this spring, and citizienship is not race of course.
The fire brigade in Amsterdam sounds pretty damn racist to be honest. Whether there's been long-standing criticism is another matter though.
 

berbatrick

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Elections are in March anyway. And the VVD don’t have an increased majority in the polls. It’s an absolute disgrace what happened but the justice system and the Tweede Kamer are equally guilty. Basically almost the whole political system failed this parents.
I had seen this and 1-2 more like it

 

berbatrick

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Also the Rutte doctrine meaning no communication with him and not much within ministries shall be put in writing. So the parliment can’t do the task they’ve been chosen for, controlling the government. He just says he didn’t know. Its disgraceful.
:eek:
Imagining the headlines if Trump openly destroyed his paper trail
 

tombombadil

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I think there should be as much accountability as possible and I also agree that the system is flawed. The EU is a bit of a bureaucratic mess in some aspects. It is however better than the alternative of saying it's every man for himself. Either way, we also pay tax for our own social safety net, not just to the EU and we also benefit greatly from the EU financially.

As for working into your 70s, as Pogue said, people live longer and healthier lives so it's only natural the retirement age goes up.
I'm just glad that there are still good people with enough generosity and foresight like you.
 

Cheimoon

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Should've resigned weeks ago, they fecked over a lot of people with this inquisition of so called benefit cheats and tries to hide responsibility as best they could. Mark Rutte with his innocent cheeky smiling. He's the quintessential wolf in sheeps clothing.
He truly is, and he will get away with it again. That’s for sure.
He'll probably get the most votes again, but Rutte is a grade A cnut. No empathy and slippery as feck. Also has absolutely zero vision for the country. That's actually probably better in his case (imagine him trying to really shape the future), but rather sad for someone who's been PM for this long.

This time was different yes. Previously not, my point is that when you have to form a govt from multiple parties to get a majority, it only takes 1 or 2 people to resign and then collapse. Its happened so many times.
I guess it's not for this thread, but I disagree. Dutch governments don't fall very often at all. And anyway, the alternative (first past the post/winner takes all) is infinitely worse. It would help if a couple of parties merged though (like happened before with GL and CDA); it's getting a little splintered right now.

Using dual citizenship data was simply without legal base and therefore not allowed. You can't use data unless there is a law that explicitely allows for it. So they got a slap on the wrist by the privacy board, a wrist slapping institution. That's really a minor and rather unharmful side issue. You can even question whether it should be allowed because it's an added fraud risk simply because foreign citizenship makes people get away with robbing the Dutch welfare system, unlike those who remain in the Netherlands, there is no escaping the Dutch collectors and they are harsh as this news shows.
I wouldn't call this a minor side issue. It's probably rather a little insight in something much more widespread - i.e., systemic discrimination by tax fraud analysts. Looks like there should be a lot.more accountability in the Dutch tax office.
 

Dr. Funkenstein

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Also the Rutte doctrine meaning no communication with him and not much within ministries shall be put in writing. So the parliment can’t do the task they’ve been chosen for, controlling the government. He just says he didn’t know. Its disgraceful.
Those are just symptoms of a general culture of secrecy and intimidation. The total lack of whistleblowers in this scandal but also in all the others is telling, it's only the really old ones, close or after retirement. His ministers who've done dodgy things offer their resignation before parliament can question them. A former minister now working for a polluting company drops by at the departement and has the definition of their waste changed to something innocent, that can't have been through charisma or intellectual overpowerment, these civil servants are highly educated and very smart while Zijlstra is a mediocre peasant. All the independent government institutions are politicized and have changed definitions and calculation methods. The media gets played with carrot and stick and they are fully responsible for his thick non stick layer. But it's a rot through all of administration, if you have an issue with the city council about permits or licenses or whatever the rule of law turns out to be worthless too. Not to mention that the enforcement of building codes, food safety and environmental protection is selective at best. It smells like the party that always advocated small government is destroying all government from the inside, while raising taxes to do less for the people and more for the international corporate world.

The fire brigade in Amsterdam sounds pretty damn racist to be honest. Whether there's been long-standing criticism is another matter though.
It's not systemic or institutional. Maybe the failure to solve the issue quickly might proof to be systemic if it happens in a lot of organizations but that's a different matter. Anyway, it's not a long standing criticism of systemic racism. It's part of a recently imported vocabulaire together with intersectionality, white privilege, decolonization of maths, micro-agression and even BIPOC.

I do question how and why such an issue with the Amsterdam fire brigade ends up in the international media though, there was even an hour long American podcast about it. It's seems to be more something that shoud be done by the local Amsterdam newspaper which is quite capable and then seep through to the national news, I really don't know why suddenly American media should care. But that's not the only example. There seems to be a need to flaunt Dutch racism for a welcoming international audience. And to be honest, also a lot of lies about the alleged Dutch racism. It's almost like many people want all whites to be racist...

Wow @Dr. Funkenstein is back. With a vengeance... or should I say in typical fashion? Good to see you post here again mate!
Thanks, I was also back here a few months ago but I guess my typical fashion didn't go down too well.
 

Dr. Funkenstein

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I wouldn't call this a minor side issue. It's probably rather a little insight in something much more widespread - i.e., systemic discrimination by tax fraud analysts. Looks like there should be a lot.more accountability in the Dutch tax office.
It is minor because the problem is not that people were investigated. The harm is caused by the tax office jumping from investigation to suspect to guilty, and subsequently not beeing able to backtrack while the suspects had no chance defending themselves. If it had been the only irregularity the investigation would not have caused any harm, maybe a little time. It's also only just since 2015 the legal base to use those data had been removed for a different reason.

Fact is that dual or multiple citizenship is increasing the risk of fraud itself. I believe it's justifiable to use that to determine which samples to investigate with the highest chance of success. Citizenship is a legal situation, that's discriminated on all the time because that's what citizenship is for basically and that results in people with dual citizenship having more opportunity for fraud. For many it's also a choice, and in breach of the rule of law keep a second citizenship voluntarily.
 

Cheimoon

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It is minor because the problem is not that people were investigated. The harm is caused by the tax office jumping from investigation to suspect to guilty, and subsequently not beeing able to backtrack while the suspects had no chance defending themselves. If it had been the only irregularity the investigation would not have caused any harm, maybe a little time. It's also only just since 2015 the legal base to use those data had been removed for a different reason.

Fact is that dual or multiple citizenship is increasing the risk of fraud itself. I believe it's justifiable to use that to determine which samples to investigate with the highest chance of success. Citizenship is a legal situation, that's discriminated on all the time because that's what citizenship is for basically and that results in people with dual citizenship having more opportunity for fraud. For many it's also a choice, and in breach of the rule of law keep a second citizenship voluntarily.
Citizenship is a factor depending on whether you have it or not. Once you have it, it should be no factor if you have multiple. Constantly being under extra scrutiny is annoying, you might get audited more often for example. They can't discriminate on race or other stuff and shouldn't on this either.
 

Stanley Road

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I guess it's not for this thread, but I disagree. Dutch governments don't fall very often at all. And anyway, the alternative (first past the post/winner takes all) is infinitely worse. It would help if a couple of parties merged though (like happened before with GL and CDA); it's getting a little splintered right now.
I'm glad you believe that
 

Drainy

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Remember when the UK government deported people who had a legitimate right to be here, and made many more people's lives hell for no good reason, and only one person resigned and that wasn't because of the policy, but because they lied to parliament.

This is how its done.
 

Dr. Funkenstein

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Citizenship is a factor depending on whether you have it or not. Once you have it, it should be no factor if you have multiple.
It simply is. If poles work here for a few months, and then their work ends they are entitled to employment benefits. Then they go back to Poland and by EU rules the Polish government has to check whether they are available for work and apply often enough for jobs. The pay for those Polish jobs is usually lower than the Dutch employment benefit and the government has to check to stop the import of Dutch money into their economy. People on general support (not job related, just to cover basic living costs) have to eat into their assets over 8000 euro or something. But if they have Maroccan or Turkish citizenship they can own houses there and often do. That's simply not the case for people with only Dutch citizenship. This whole policy, that was executed in breach of the law, with the Bulgarians fraude. Basically just an international criminal gang looking for soft spots in foreign benefits, using them as ATM and returning to Bulgaria not to be found or at least not the money. I'm sorry but that's undermining the solidarity the welfare system is founded on and therefore is worth every effort to end it, even if that effort is more expensive than the money gotten back.

Constantly being under extra scrutiny is annoying, you might get audited more often for example. They can't discriminate on race or other stuff and shouldn't on this either.
It's entirely different from race. It's a legal situation which is perfectly normal to discriminate on like can you enter the country without a visa, are you eligable to benefits and can you vote. For the people who choose to keep another nationality, unlawfully or not, it's your choice not to be equal to the other Dutch because you want rights in and towards your other country, so you can't claim equality. For the people who can't ditch their other nationality, well I'm sorry but that's a problem between you and the government of your other country. Blame them, you got some advantages too.

The tricky thing is that it shouldn't be used for ethnic profiling, but the idea that citizenship can't make any difference makes no sense because of what it is, a collection of rights and often obligations towards a state.
 

Cheimoon

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I'm sorry but that's undermining the solidarity the welfare system is founded on and therefore is worth every effort to end it, even if that effort is more expensive than the money gotten back.
I don't see that point. Why would it make sense that enforcement of a money issue costs more than the money issue? Not that I think this gang should just go ahead, but profiling an entire population group because of this makes no sense to me - even if you have a point on legal status.

It's entirely different from race. It's a legal situation which is perfectly normal to discriminate on like can you enter the country without a visa, are you eligable to benefits and can you vote. For the people who choose to keep another nationality, unlawfully or not, it's your choice not to be equal to the other Dutch because you want rights in and towards your other country, so you can't claim equality. For the people who can't ditch their other nationality, well I'm sorry but that's a problem between you and the government of your other country. Blame them, you got some advantages too.

The tricky thing is that it shouldn't be used for ethnic profiling, but the idea that citizenship can't make any difference makes no sense because of what it is, a collection of rights and often obligations towards a state.
But there are many things the government can use to profile people. I think they shouldn't use any of that and prioritize benefit of the doubt. I also think you're overeating the advantages of dual citizenship. If there's a real issue, there are better ways to identify them, such as in this case through international tax treaties.
 

DavidDeSchmikes

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So basically after all this, the election will come in March, Rutte gets in with a coalition.

Also keep an eye on Italy
 

Eendracht maakt macht

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No?
The largest party is up by 7.5%, and the coalition is up 3%. Seems to be a solid increase, especially for the PM's party.
In seats they are down. Current government couldn’t form a coalition again as it stands. It’s also not that simple because basically whole of the Tweede Kamer apart from the SP and Ontzigt are also guilty of this disaster. Tweede Kamer got ripped apart in the report too.