Sure, that's all fair enough
He was a Chelsea player 3 years ago though so to say "nobody has wanted him for 3 years" is a load of guff.
Eden Hazard | "It's time to enjoy life drinking beers"
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He was a Chelsea player 3 years ago though so to say "nobody has wanted him for 3 years" is a load of guff.
The eye test.
It's how I worked out (the first time he was here) that Lukaku was never going to be a world class forward no matter what the stats say. It's how I rated Iniesta and Xavi above Lampard and Gerrard even if the g/a stats stated the total opposite.
Lukaku is a striker that is good in specific environment, Lukaku in a Conte system will absolutely crush it. Just like there are defenders who will be great in a low block but will look a mess in high lines
Iniesta and Xavi are midfielders and are not judged by goals, Midfielders in a 433 are to win and recycle possession. Xavi and Iniesta do that better than Lampard and especially Gerrard who cant keep possession as good as Xavi/Iniesta and often had to be moved away from midfield by Benitez to have his best season
There is no eye test sufficient for an attacker who doesn't produce numbers, Its a convenient way to hide the failure of Hazard at the top level
Yes there is. Luis Figo never topped a 14 goal season, yet no one would question he was world class. Bergkamp at Arsenal broke the 20 goal barrier once, no one questioned he was world class.
To pluck two examples.
Figo played in a 442 formation where the role of the wingers were significantly different than in a 433. Just like many roles have changed their interpretation in modern football
If we compare Figos output to his peers those days like Beckham, Nedved, Basler etc we can see that he is elite, If we compare Hazards output to wing forwards of his generation we will see that he is not top
I think what this discussion badly needs is another Bayern fan, isn't it? 
First a disclaimer: I have and always had a soft spot for Hazard because I just like this type of player and he always reminds me of Ribery, one of my favorite players ever.
I think it's very hard to compare Hazard and Müller.
If someone argues that Hazard had the slightly higher peak for 1 or 2 seasons I can live with that. But looking at their whole career I can't get how many people in here rate Hazard higher. Müller plays consistently on a very high level for over 10 years (with the exception of the dark times when Kovac was our coach...) and is barely ever injured.
Some people in here argued that you can't just judge a attacking player by his stats. I agree with that.
They argued that Hazards dribbling skills, passing and creativity are far superior to that of Müller.
And while not even the biggest Bayern fan would argue about their dribbling or passing skills I'd say that Müllers creativity is greater than Hazards.
Maybe it just comes down to the definition of the word "creativity".
For me it's anticipating, seeing and using game situations and open space before other players.
This can be done through various means. A good dribbling, a great pass but also with good positioning, a smart run that lures away a defender and creates space for the teammate or by just coaching his mates on the pitch.
And those last three aspects I mentioned are some of Müllers biggest strengths. Unfortunately they tend to get overlooked, even by many Bayern fans that see him every week.
I have a good and recent example for what I mean:
Please take a look at the 4:0 (starting at 6:30).
Before the ball is even close to Müller he shouts at Musiala and points at where he should run (you could see and hear this better in the game itself but I didn't find a better video unfortunately). Müller than plays a simple looking but perfectly executed pass that leads to an easy goal for Bayern.
You won't see this situation reflected in any statistics because it's no goal and no direct assist of Müller. But I'd still argue that at least 50% of this goal were due to Müller and his creativity.
So I just wanted to ask those that argue that Hazard has shown far bigger creativity than Müller: wouldn't you consider what Müller has shown in this goal as "creativity"? I certainly would.
First a disclaimer: I have and always had a soft spot for Hazard because I just like this type of player and he always reminds me of Ribery, one of my favorite players ever.
I think it's very hard to compare Hazard and Müller.
If someone argues that Hazard had the slightly higher peak for 1 or 2 seasons I can live with that. But looking at their whole career I can't get how many people in here rate Hazard higher. Müller plays consistently on a very high level for over 10 years (with the exception of the dark times when Kovac was our coach...) and is barely ever injured.
Some people in here argued that you can't just judge a attacking player by his stats. I agree with that.
They argued that Hazards dribbling skills, passing and creativity are far superior to that of Müller.
And while not even the biggest Bayern fan would argue about their dribbling or passing skills I'd say that Müllers creativity is greater than Hazards.
Maybe it just comes down to the definition of the word "creativity".
For me it's anticipating, seeing and using game situations and open space before other players.
This can be done through various means. A good dribbling, a great pass but also with good positioning, a smart run that lures away a defender and creates space for the teammate or by just coaching his mates on the pitch.
And those last three aspects I mentioned are some of Müllers biggest strengths. Unfortunately they tend to get overlooked, even by many Bayern fans that see him every week.
I have a good and recent example for what I mean:
Please take a look at the 4:0 (starting at 6:30).
Before the ball is even close to Müller he shouts at Musiala and points at where he should run (you could see and hear this better in the game itself but I didn't find a better video unfortunately). Müller than plays a simple looking but perfectly executed pass that leads to an easy goal for Bayern.
You won't see this situation reflected in any statistics because it's no goal and no direct assist of Müller. But I'd still argue that at least 50% of this goal were due to Müller and his creativity.
So I just wanted to ask those that argue that Hazard has shown far bigger creativity than Müller: wouldn't you consider what Müller has shown in this goal as "creativity"? I certainly would.
Forget about formations, Hazards role isn’t too disilimar to Figos which is what you see to fail to understand, or to compare it to someone who Bergkamp played with Pires for Arsenal.
Figo played in a different formation and his output in his time were elite for his position. Hazard in his time is lagging behind his peers in that wing forward role
I will parahrase the part I agree with the mostI think what this discussion badly needs is another Bayern fan, isn't it?
First a disclaimer: I have and always had a soft spot for Hazard because I just like this type of player and he always reminds me of Ribery, one of my favorite players ever.
I think it's very hard to compare Hazard and Müller.
If someone argues that Hazard had the slightly higher peak for 1 or 2 seasons I can live with that. But looking at their whole career I can't get how many people in here rate Hazard higher. Müller plays consistently on a very high level for over 10 years (with the exception of the dark times when Kovac was our coach...) and is barely ever injured.
Some people in here argued that you can't just judge a attacking player by his stats. I agree with that.
They argued that Hazards dribbling skills, passing and creativity are far superior to that of Müller.
And while not even the biggest Bayern fan would argue about their dribbling or passing skills I'd say that Müllers creativity is greater than Hazards.
Maybe it just comes down to the definition of the word "creativity".
For me it's anticipating, seeing and using game situations and open space before other players.
This can be done through various means. A good dribbling, a great pass but also with good positioning, a smart run that lures away a defender and creates space for the teammate or by just coaching his mates on the pitch.
And those last three aspects I mentioned are some of Müllers biggest strengths. Unfortunately they tend to get overlooked, even by many Bayern fans that see him every week.
I have a good and recent example for what I mean:
Please take a look at the 4:0 (starting at 6:30).
Before the ball is even close to Müller he shouts at Musiala and points at where he should run (you could see and hear this better in the game itself but I didn't find a better video unfortunately). Müller than plays a simple looking but perfectly executed pass that leads to an easy goal for Bayern.
You won't see this situation reflected in any statistics because it's no goal and no direct assist of Müller. But I'd still argue that at least 50% of this goal were due to Müller and his creativity.
So I just wanted to ask those that argue that Hazard has shown far bigger creativity than Müller: wouldn't you consider what Müller has shown in this goal as "creativity"? I certainly would.
"Maybe it just comes down to the definition of the word "creativity".
For me it's anticipating, seeing and using game situations and open space before other players.
This can be done through various means. A good dribbling, a great pass but also with good positioning, a smart run that lures away a defender and creates space for the teammate"
Creativity simply means creating chances for your teammates, whichever way you choose to do it is irrelevant, Whether its by passes like Bruno, Muller Ozil or KdB or my dribbles like Hazard Messi or Zaha it makes no difference
Muller is the type of player every attacker will love to play with, A player who serves you the ball as quick as possible without unnecessary delay and dribble. The split second extra delay to take on the 4th defender allows everyne to get back in position when a simple pass likely does it
Well, if you're going down that route there's no defending Bergkamp's relative lack of goals then right?
And I'm guessing you rated Pires above both Figo and Giggs also?
Dennis Bergkamp was a support striker in a 442 and his numbers were decent for his position. Bergkamp was hitting double figures league goals in his prime until he hit his 30s and naturally declined
Figo was doing double digits assists regularly like Beckham was doing for an elite winger in the 90s
And Hazard is/was a winger.
Like Neymar Salah Mane Robben Messi Ronaldo Bale etc only that Hazards numbers are worse
Sorry but how idiotic that argument is ? Absolutely non sensical. Talking about an attackers output 2 decades back when playing 442 without any of this modern day wingers transition.
Hazard is no where near Muller as a player in numbers, longevity, intelligence both on club level and international. And can’t lace his boots in delivering season after season and in consistency through out his career. The only thing you can say about hazard is his ability to be absolutely lethal on his day and that’s true but that’s about it. A good few seasons at a club level and that’s it. Absolutely dog shit in CL for the entirety of his career. One of the most overrated players in recent history who has been elevated to a higher status than his actual impact. Only chelsea fans rate him that highly. Nobody else does and there is a good reason for it.
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I'm at a loss, everyone keeps talking about how "ineffective" and "inconsistent" Hazard is/was, but he has over 200 g+a in 352 appearances for Chelsea, which in my opinion is very respectable.
As for consistency, he had like, one bad season at Chelsea?
He could have been a better goalscorer, and he certainly should have done better in CL, but he was a world class player for me, until he left for RM and became a bum.
As for consistency, he had like, one bad season at Chelsea?
He could have been a better goalscorer, and he certainly should have done better in CL, but he was a world class player for me, until he left for RM and became a bum.
See, here's the biggest problem with Hazard's reputation for me: can you actually be a WC player, if you fail to deliver in the CL? I mean the term is called world class, not pretty good domestically class.
Tbh, I am really happy that Chelsea rinsed Madrid for Hazard, spending 100 million for a player who isn't even worth 20 now. Chelsea juiced out the max they could from Hazard before sending him to Madrid. Madrid did the same thing with Ronaldo when they bought him from us.
He's very underrated here because performances get ignored in favour of lazily focusing on Hazard not getting close to a 'goal contribution'-per-game ratio in two categories which don't tell you how many goals he has actually contributed to, or to what extent.
Hazard was extremely efficient and a beacon of consistency outside of one season where the team completely fell apart under Mourinho and Hazard played through injury. Many claim the complete opposite and it makes no sense. He was a brilliant player and one who had me, as a United fan watching a game against Chelsea, unable to relax at all whenever he had a ball at his feet.
Hazard is just a Coutinho for me.
Is a fantastic player when made to be the central of the whole team but leads to the other players not shining much within the same team.
When playing for a team with top quality players that are playing their own game at a top quality with ease - then this leads him to not being as good.
I even saw this for Belgium, he was a bit of a dissapointment for me when playing for them in comparison to how he played for Chelsea. Felt De Bryune and even Lukaku were better players for Beligum (even though Hazard was their 2nd highest scorer).
Is a fantastic player when made to be the central of the whole team but leads to the other players not shining much within the same team.
When playing for a team with top quality players that are playing their own game at a top quality with ease - then this leads him to not being as good.
I even saw this for Belgium, he was a bit of a dissapointment for me when playing for them in comparison to how he played for Chelsea. Felt De Bryune and even Lukaku were better players for Beligum (even though Hazard was their 2nd highest scorer).
So was Hazard.
When Belgium really needed KDB VS France he went into hiding. It was only Hazard looking to do anything.
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True
Belgium played better when Hazard dipped. As soon as he started hogging the ball again the service to Lukaku stopped and KDB wasn’t seeing the ball in dangerous positions. All because Hazed ran down blind alleys to win free kicks. He was almost tactically fouling himself.
Hazard was better than KDB in that tournament it’s not even an argument whatsoever.
Not true at all. Setting up a team to get the best out of a player means surrounding him with teammates who compliment his game. If his teammates compliment his game then said player also brings the best out those teammates. This applies to Hazard, any other creative forward, a central striker, a wide forward - it is true of any player.
Yeah, and that environment is when playing in a team which is significantly better than the one they're playing and/or when teams give him a shed load of space to allow him to try and retrieve the ball after his awful first touch. When he isn't given space and/or not in a significantly overpowered team compared to the one he is playing, he is poor.
Hazard did nothing until the knockout games. Lukaku played a lot better without Haazrd hogging the ball, that’s not an argument whatsoever!
Mate, the irony of you posting this when this has been my argument all along - Hazard at his peak created more chances than Muller.
What? He scored twice, had one assist to Lukaku, put KdB into space for another assist to Lukaku...what are you talking about? He didn't play the 3rd group game because Belgium were happy to finish 1st or 2nd, and neither did Lukaku.
That's okay if you disagree.
I just see the way Chelsea utelised Hazard and Liverpool utelised Coutinho in comparison to how they were being used and utelised at Real Madrid and Barcelona.
I see a difference.
Even now Coutinho at Aston Villa is starting to play more like his Liverpool tenure than Barcelona one. Grealish at Aston Villa vs City aswell.
I remember the first summer at Madrid when he came to training about 8kg over weight....Madrid knew they'd fecked up right there and then.
Imagine that, one of the best players in Europe at the time...a massive 100m to his dream club Madrid and you turn up out of shape, that's a whole new level of no fecks given.
Imagine that, one of the best players in Europe at the time...a massive 100m to his dream club Madrid and you turn up out of shape, that's a whole new level of no fecks given.
Good dribblers dribble, that doesn't equal to hogging the ball. France defence was very strong, who else was going to do something to unlock the defence?.
Hazard actually should of won a freekick right outside the penalty area in that game with his dribbling, Giroud clearly fouled him and the ref didn't give a freekick. No idea what game you were watching.
Thats why Belgium fans who watch them every game voted Hazard there player of the year 3 years in a row, because he plays better than KDB.
Totally forgot he still existed. If Bale is a parasite to the Real Madrid media, I wonder what they make of Hazard? 
Hazard constantly holds (held) onto the ball for too long that broke down attacks. It’s the same problem as Pogba in not getting it away quick enough and slowing down play.
Lukaku was in line for too scorer in that tournament when Hazard was sidelined. As soon as he started getting the ball more the rest of the attack suffered.
It's nowhere near the same level of hate because Hazard has not been hostile to fans, the press, managers, etc.Totally forgot he still existed. If Bale is a parasite to the Real Madrid media, I wonder what they make of Hazard?
The bold is true because he is the type of player who plays to please/enjoy himself first. The extra dribble will look good to fans but those extra touches just took your attacker into an offside position or allowed your opponent to regroup
What you get from those type of plays is a ton of youtube highlights about your dribbles and touches when your team suffer at the highest level of football
I am not a big Lukaku fan but everyone knows he is big fast but lacking in his touches so the best way to get Lukaku firing is by releasing the ball early to him so he can isolate and bully the marker with his size and speed. Slow paced build up does not suit Lukaku, Which is why he excelled under Conte.
Hazard has been playing for almost a decade lets compare his total numbers to Muller. If we are isolating one season where Hazard was good and Muller was poor stats don't work that way otherwise almost every player will be better than Messi this season
Muller created more assists for his club and NT than Hazard did. Muller has more spatial awareness and delivers the pass immediately without holding onto the ball like Hazard does.
Well yes, there is an obvious difference - the setups and mix of players don't compliment them as well.(don't know about Hazard, who is just finished...).
The opposite of what you said is true. Coutinho not being accomodated properly impacts negatively on the other players he is lining up alongside, and when integrated into a team properly that impacts positively on the players he is playing with. Same with Grealish.
Couldn’t the same be said for Maradona, Best, Ronaldinho even Messi who would go on long dribbles past 3-4 players at a time when they could have simply done a what a player like Muller would do and laid it off?
The difference with those is that they had output. Messi and Maradona are one of the greatest scorers of all time. Also nowadays, defences are better structured and less 1v1 man marking.
If those dribbles are getting the output of goals and assists no one will worry. E.g Hazard has 9 career CL goals. For context, current active players who play that way Messi is the 2nd all time scorer in the CL history, Neymar has 41 CL goals.