El Salvador Mega Prison

[Mr Pigeon]

*balanced OP incoming*

President Nayib Bukele's war on crime has culminated in this human rights breaching mega prison.

Look, I get it. They're criminals (well some of them are anyway) but am I meant to think that the authorities here are any better than the gang members?

Some of the prison's highlights;

- 8 buildings with 32 cells in each. 10m x 10m cells that will house 100 inmates each. Each cell contains 80 beds, with no mattresses, two toilets and two sinks.
- There's a gym, table tennis and dining hall. For the guards.
- Prisoners are only allowed to leave the cell for legal hearings or when they're placed in isolation.

I know there will be a few folk saying "feck them, they're scum". In which I say you should get in line and join the murderers and drug dealers being housed in this hell hole.

Anyway, discuss. Obviously these gangs have fecked El Salvador up for years and there has to be punishments that also deter others but it's a sad sight.

 

[Cheimoon]

Bukele is crazy. Ruling the country like a dictator, arresting people indiscriminately in his war in drugs, and basically dragging the country a little further down with every decision he makes. El Salvador might like what he's doing to the gangs now, but it's going far further than that and he won't be looked back at positively.

 

[Sviken]

Bukele is crazy. Ruling the country like a dictator, arresting people indiscriminately in his war in drugs, and basically dragging the country a little further down with every decision he makes. El Salvador might like what he's doing to the gangs now, but it's going far further than that and he won't be looked back at positively.

You can't fight drugs with half measures.

 

[TheReligion]

I wonder how many will be sent there for having no MOT certificate?

Ghastly place

 

[Cheimoon]

You can't fight drugs with half measures.

So you're saying arresting tons of people indiscriminately and putting them in prison in inhumane circumstances is right and justified?

Also, how will that help in the long term? What does it do to address the underlying causes of the success of gangs?

 

[)_(]

You can't fight drugs with half measures.

Ah yes, the war on drugs has definitely shown that.

 

[nimic]

*balanced OP incoming*

President Nayib Bukele's war on crime has culminated in this human rights breaching mega prison.

Look, I get it. They're criminals (well some of them are anyway) but am I meant to think that the authorities here are any better than the gang members?

Some of the prison's highlights;

- 8 buildings with 32 cells in each. 10m x 10m cells that will house 100 inmates each. Each cell contains 80 beds, with no mattresses, two toilets and two sinks.
- There's a gym, table tennis and dining hall. For the guards.
- Prisoners are only allowed to leave the cell for legal hearings or when they're placed in isolation.

I know there will be a few folk saying "feck them, they're scum". In which I say you should get in line and join the murderers and drug dealers being housed in this hell hole.

Anyway, discuss. Obviously these gangs have fecked El Salvador up for years and there has to be punishments that also deter others but it's a sad sight.

I'm sure this is going to rehabilitate all those inmates.

 

[Wumminator]

Ah yes, the man who decided to run his country on Bitcoin. I’m sure he’s rational and making great decisions everywhere.

 

[oates]

To an extent murderers, rapists have likely not protected their victims Human Rights, in reality removing them entirely, most people want a sentence to fit the crime, will want their human rights impinged upon - particularly the victim's families and loved ones, they won't care how these murderers and rapists are treated in prison, the most harshly the better. Of course the more enlightened can appreciate that these offenders need to learn just as we do the values and quality of the full scale of methods that can be brought to bear in Prison Reform and Prisoner Rehabilitation. What we do know is that we won't achieve any of that by treating human beings even horrific offenders, like animals. Depends how important that is to the leaders of a society, they've plainly already failed these people and their victims at least once. Blaming victims is a common way to hide your own shortcomings.

 

[shamans]

Not every prisoner is worth rehabilitation and it simply doesn’t work in many cases.

prisons with harsher conditions can and do act as deterrence but this is also why I’m for capital punishment. A serial rapist or murderer should be executed

 

[Rado_N]

Not every prisoner is worth rehabilitation and it simply doesn’t work in many cases.

prisons with harsher conditions can and do act as deterrence but this is also why I’m for capital punishment. A serial rapist or murderer should be executed

Can you support that statement with evidence please.

 

[RedTiger]

The central American problems with US origin gang culture will never be sorted by just locking these brainwashed people up. They need to implement social changes that give these barrio dwelling kids something to aspire to, something that can give their existence meaning other than some preconditioned loyalty to an identity that was created in another nation.

 

[shamans]

Can you support that statement with evidence please.

Im not gonna sell marijuana from my house because I don’t want to get caught and go to prison

 

[horsechoker]

From the makers of Binley Mega Chippy...

 

[Rado_N]

Im not gonna sell marijuana from my house because I don’t want to get caught and go to prison

So, no then. Figured as much.

 

[shamans]

So, no then. Figured as much.

if you’ll ignore it then of course

The real answer is it’s complicated but deterrence has a role to play.

 

[Rado_N]

if you’ll ignore it then of course

The real answer is it’s complicated but deterrence has a role to play.

Ignore what? Your ridiculous suggestion that you not selling drugs is evidence that prisons with poor conditions act as a deterrent?

Show some actual evidence of your statement from a reputable source, if you can.

 

[HookedOnAPhelan]

Im not gonna sell marijuana from my house because I don’t want to get caught and go to prison

Otherwise you would?

Anyway, is your point that making things illegal is a deterrence?

 

[shamans]

Ignore what? Your ridiculous suggestion that you not selling drugs is evidence that prisons with poor conditions act as a deterrent?

Show some actual evidence of your statement from a reputable source, if you can.

Honestly that’s the only reason I’m not selling drugs. It’s good money and weed isn’t going to kill anyone so the only thing holding me back is going to jail for it. I don’t see what’s ridiculous about that.

Look at all the stats around Rudy Giuiliani as mayor of NYC and how crime plummeted. I know there’s been many attempts to twist that as not being correlated to the policing but I find those weak unless there’s a theory I’ve missed

 

[shamans]

Otherwise you would?

Anyway, is your point that making things illegal is a deterrence?

why not

 

[Rado_N]

Honestly that’s the only reason I’m not selling drugs. It’s good money and weed isn’t going to kill anyone so the only thing holding me back is going to jail for it. I don’t see what’s ridiculous about that.

Look at all the stats around Rudy Giuiliani as mayor of NYC and how crime plummeted. I know there’s been many attempts to twist that as not being correlated to the policing but I find those weak unless there’s a theory I’ve missed

Once again, no then. Figured as much.

It is utterly ludicrous to suggest that prisons with bad conditions are a deterrent against crime.

That’s without even getting into the abject lack of humanity of your comments on capital punishment.

 

[shamans]

Once again, no then. Figured as much.

It is utterly ludicrous to suggest that prisons with bad conditions are a deterrent against crime.

That’s without even getting into the abject lack of humanity of your comments on capital punishment.

Well I can't say I understand what you're saying or even objecting to: the stats? my own assertion?

I suppose it doesn't matter

 

[Rado_N]

Well I can't say I understand what you're saying or even objecting to: the stats? my own assertion?

I suppose it doesn't matter

You’ve shown nothing, and you can’t be daft enough to think “I don’t sell drugs” is evidence of anything.

 

[shamans]

You’ve shown nothing, and you can’t be daft enough to think “I don’t sell drugs” is evidence of anything.

I'm telling you to look up the stats on crime reduction in NYC. If you want anything specific to El Salvador, no I don't have stats for that. Would love to read if you do.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Well I can't say I understand what you're saying or even objecting to: the stats? my own assertion?

I suppose it doesn't matter

I'd wager It's the concept of prison that deters you from illegal activity and not specifically the conditions. Most people would not want to be locked away and have their freedom of movement curtailed whether they were sent to a nice place or not. Especially those of us with relatively comfortable existences.

 

[The Cat]

It's a bit harsh to cover them in tattoos.

 

[Sviken]

So you're saying arresting tons of people indiscriminately and putting them in prison in inhumane circumstances is right and justified?

Also, how will that help in the long term? What does it do to address the underlying causes of the success of gangs?

What do you suggest? Give them milkshakes and cakes? The reason why drugs are ever increasing is because these people have no fear of the law. And why should they/ Apart from the bribes and having everyone in their pocket, even if they by some miracle go to prison, it's gonna be a 2 years luxury resort.

The underlying causes on drugs are way too complex - social inequality, poverty, not enough jobs, corruption, laws, education, even culture (since a lot of these gangbangers start idolizing the cartels and the drug trade from early age due to their close proximity to it). It's not something you fix with snap of the finger.

Ah yes, the war on drugs has definitely shown that.

The war on drugs is the perfect example of half-measures. Look at America right now - a fentanyl heaven. Also, I have to say that the war on terror wasn't even a war on drugs as the American propaganda likes to paint it as. It was 'fought' over Escobar and the drug cartels siphoning money from America. That's all it was. It wasn't some moral crusade or anything. When they killed Escobar, they even created a bigger mess than it was before.

 

[Rado_N]

I'm telling you to look up the stats on crime reduction in NYC. If you want anything specific to El Salvador, no I don't have stats for that. Would love to read if you do.

I’ve asked you to provide evidence to support your claim, telling me to go look up some random stats is meaningless.

The point is there is no evidence to support your claim, and that is because your claim is false.

 

[Sviken]

I’ve asked you to provide evidence to support your claim, telling me to go look up some random stats is meaningless.

The point is there is no evidence to support your claim, and that is because your claim is false.

He's right though. The American mafia was virtually broken after the RICO laws.

 

[Shakesy]

Anyway, discuss.

Aww, no Pigeon. Not you too

 

[Rado_N]

He's right though. The American mafia was virtually broken after the RICO laws.

In what way does that support the claim that prisons with poor conditions act as a deterrent?

 

[Cheimoon]

What do you suggest? Give them milkshakes and cakes? The reason why drugs are ever increasing is because these people have no fear of the law. And why should they/ Apart from the bribes and having everyone in their pocket, even if they by some miracle go to prison, it's gonna be a 2 years luxury resort.

Do you have any data demonstrating the link between harsher prison regimes and lower crime rates? Cause I've never heard of that. The only causation I'm aware of, is between prison regimes and recidivism rates. And there, the link is very clear: more humane prison regimes lead to much lower recidivism rates, with Norway pretty much leading the way. E.g.:
https://bpr.berkeley.edu/2022/10/25/what-can-we-learn-from-the-norwegian-prison-system/
https://magazine.ucsf.edu/norways-humane-approach-prisons-can-work-here-too

The underlying causes on drugs are way too complex - social inequality, poverty, not enough jobs, corruption, laws, education, even culture (since a lot of these gangbangers start idolizing the cartels and the drug trade from early age due to their close proximity to it). It's not something you fix with snap of the finger.

So what is Bukele doing about those? To my knowledge: nothing. If anything, inequity in the country is getting worse.

So what you have here, then: a leader that's not addressing the causes of criminality, is being indiscriminate in arrests (meaning mass arrests also include many innocent people: article), and is worsening an ineffective prison system. Which part of that will help him win this 'war on drugs'?

 

[Sviken]

In what way does that support the claim that prisons with poor conditions act as a deterrent?

Strong and harsh law does.

Do you have any data demonstrating the link between harsher prison regimes and lower crime rates? Cause I've never heard of that. The only causation I'm aware of, is between prison regimes and recidivism rates. And there, the link is very clear: more humane prison regimes lead to much lower recidivism rates, with Norway pretty much leading the way. E.g.

I was taking more along the lines of long prison sentences. But as far as harshness go, it's debatable. There's no real set data, but I don't think anyone would want to go in a prison in which the conditions are terrible. Still, I can't say it helps, unlike harsh sentences, but it certainly doesn't hurt

So what you have here, then: a leader that's not addressing the causes of criminality, is being indiscriminate in arrests (meaning mass arrests also include many innocent people: article), and is worsening an ineffective prison system. Which part of that will help him win this 'war on drugs'?

I don't know enough about El Salvador's politics, but as I said - the issues that are present with the drug trade are not fixable in 1 or even 2 terms. It's an issue that would take decade or two at the earliest with the utmost diligence.

If this is true;


El Salvador's murder rate decreased to historic lows during Bukele's tenure, falling by over 50 percent during his first year in office.[1][2] Although Bukele attributed the decrease in murders to his deployment of thousands of police and soldiers to gang strongholds and an increase in prison security, his government has been accused by the United States of secretly negotiating with Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13) to reduce the number of murders. Since March 2022, Bukele's government has arrested over 64,500 people with alleged gang affiliations following a significant spike in murders, leading to accusations of human rights violations being committed by El Salvador's security forces.


Then evidently he is doing a somewhat of a good job.

 

[shamans]

So what is Bukele doing about those? To my knowledge: nothing. If anything, inequity in the country is getting worse.

So what you have here, then: a leader that's not addressing the causes of criminality, is being indiscriminate in arrests (meaning mass arrests also include many innocent people: article), and is worsening an ineffective prison system. Which part of that will help him win this 'war on drugs'?

I’ve asked you to provide evidence to support your claim, telling me to go look up some random stats is meaningless.

The point is there is no evidence to support your claim, and that is because your claim is false.

You think stats from the crime reduction in US in the 90s is "random"? It's a clear cut example of deterrence and severe punishments reducing crime. There is a reason prions go all the way up to max security which are reserved for the worst criminals.

As for El Salvador as far as I can tell Bukele has one of he highest approval ratings I've ever seen for any country head let alone El Salvador (hovering around 90%) and from what I gather locals are happy about this. These criminals aren't stealing bikes from suburban neighborhoods these are some of the most violent and brutal criminals known.

 

[Rado_N]

You think stats from the crime reduction in US in the 90s is "random"? It's a clear cut example of deterrence and severe punishments reducing crime. There is a reason prions go all the way up to max security which are reserved for the worst criminals.

I don’t think those stats support your claim. In any way.

There is absolutely no evidence to support harsh prisons or sentences being a deterrent against crime.

 

[Cheimoon]

Strong and harsh law does.



I was taking more along the lines of long prison sentences. But as far as harshness go, it's debatable. There's no real set data, but I don't think anyone would want to go in a prison in which the conditions are terrible. Still, I can't say it helps, unlike harsh sentences, but it certainly doesn't hurt

So show me some evidence of that. (Also @shamans.) Cause I just looked up the question of whether harsher prison sentences deter crime, and all I get are articles with experts saying that this seems instinctively true, but isn't in actual fact. The most effective thing to deter crime appears to be increasing the chance of getting caught; not the severity of the punishment that follows. For example:
https://www.unsw.edu.au/news/2020/07/do-harsher-punishments-deter-crime-
https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/five-things-about-deterrence

I don't know enough about El Salvador's politics, but as I said - the issues that are present with the drug trade are not fixable in 1 or even 2 terms. It's an issue that would take decade or two at the earliest with the utmost diligence.

It's a big deal though. So far, it appears that Bukele is dealing with a clear and obvious problem (high criminality) through things that look cool (lots of arrests! bad prisons!) that are not actually right, while ignoring the long-term.

If this is true;

El Salvador's murder rate decreased to historic lows during Bukele's tenure, falling by over 50 percent during his first year in office.[1][2] Although Bukele attributed the decrease in murders to his deployment of thousands of police and soldiers to gang strongholds and an increase in prison security, his government has been accused by the United States of secretly negotiating with Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13) to reduce the number of murders. Since March 2022, Bukele's government has arrested over 64,500 people with alleged gang affiliations following a significant spike in murders, leading to accusations of human rights violations being committed by El Salvador's security forces.

Then evidently he is doing a somewhat of a good job.

Erm, your very quote questions what aspect of Bukele's actions led to the reduction. What am I supposed to get from that?

 

[mitChley]

I don’t think those stats support your claim. In any way.

There is absolutely no evidence to support harsh prisons or sentences being a deterrent against crime.

I've only ever heard those stats mentioned in relation to the knock on effect from legal abortion, not "meh prisons r tough"

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

It's a bit harsh to cover them in tattoos.

It's not a laughing matter but

 

[Scarlett Dracarys]

El Salvador is where the MS-13 originated from.

 

[WI_Red]

I am always (and by now I shouldn’t be) floored by peoples willingness to accept state sponsored terror, violence, and executions, as if it only happens to the “right people”. Hell, we had a poster say it was “correct” to let the dogs loose on suspects in another thread. We are no more enlightened then our ancestors, we just have fancier ways of being monsters.