England Discussion

[giorno]

Maguire was shocking tonight

Who gives a feck, it's a friendly. He's played 3 tournaments and was one of the best CBs in all 3. That's what the manager is going to care about, as he should.

and there is a plethora of options at CB that are just as good now and will be better in future than him like Konsa, Colwill, Branthwaite etc.

All of them untested

 

[SilentWitness]

Who gives a feck, it's a friendly. He's played 3 tournaments and was one of the best CBs in all 3. That's what the manager is going to care about, as he should.


All of them untested

You just said you play your most consistent performers? So clearly it does matter? He's also put in a bunch of mistakes over the past 1-2 years for England.

I'm convinced you're on an elaborate windup regarding England/Southgate.

 

[SilentWitness]

He’s been decent this season though although bad game tonight. Colwill has been in and out of the Chelsea team and deployed at LB in some games.

That's the thing though, he's either decent or makes mistakes and is poor now, he did his job but it's time to move on.

 

[Oranges038]

I see we're at the players are shite and the manager is rubbish phase.

In a few weeks we'll be in the darkhorse phase.

Then we'll be back to the this is shite phase when the squad is announced.

Tournament starts and England somehow become the overwhelming favorites and end up going home with nothing.

Repeat every 2-4 years as required.

 

[TheGame]

That's the thing though, he's either decent or makes mistakes and is poor now, he did his job but it's time to move on.

Well yeah, should have just started Branthwaite alongside Stones.

 

[Habs]

He’s far too negative and in my opinion he’s underachieved with this England side. I’ve no idea how he’s being linked with the United job.

He should have started Mainoo today instead of Gallagher, he’s the type of midfielder we need and Gallagher is never going to be that.

 

[sparx99]

Somewhat off topic, but the infatuation with data can be crippling to how teams play. Brazil camped deep and blocked every channel England were trying to pass into, especially after they very luckily went 1-0 up.

England then spent 15 minutes banging their heads against a brick wall trying to pass through a congested low block. What was needed, was for about 5 minutes of sustained shooting from distance. It’s low percentage - which is why managers don’t let players do it any more. But you hit a couple of long rangers on target, forcing the keeper into some saves, then you just automatically draw out the midfield the next time you line one up; leaving spaces to now pass in to.

Sometimes you have to embrace the low percentage plays, to change the mentality of the opposition. But modern teams just do the same thing, over and over and over again. Pass, pass, pass, pass, pass. Just fecking twat one once in a while.

I used to say this about Utd teams of old. When faced with a low block sometimes the best course of action would have been to give the opposition the ball so they have to attack.

 

[Mainoonited]

Hopefully that'll crush rumours of Southgate to united.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Agreed again.

Would love Mourinho as England’s manager too. Feels like a perfect match and would be the job that gets his “special one” reputation back. Also think he plays better football than he’s given credit for.

Only if he starts at the right time, because he'll have his usual 3rd year meltdown.

If he's recruited after the Euros, then we might just have a chance of winning the World Cup before he implodes.

 

[simonhch]

I used to say this about Utd teams of old. When faced with a low block sometimes the best course of action would have been to give the opposition the ball so they have to attack.

Long range shooting is somewhat of a lost art these days; but in instances like today where you need to draw the opposition out a bit; so you have some spaces to work your little passing triangles in - I think it would’ve been useful. The same pass, pass, pass mentality makes the approach very predictable, with the only variation thrown in being more crosses. Which again, is quite predictable.

A short period of well teed up long range shots, will at least force the opposition midfield to step up a little more to close down the shooter. This is a natural reaction after seeing your keeper have his palms stung by a couple of howitzers from distance. That then gives you just a little bit of space to drop into.

The problem is, data tells us long range shots have a very low xG, so no one does it anymore. And that’s the problem with data in football. It looks at the efficacy of individual actions in isolation, but it doesn’t look at their impact on the psychology of opposing players and consequently their positioning and movement in subsequent minutes. I’m sure an algorithm could be written to do exactly that I.e. heat maps for opposing CMs/DMs/CBs in the period following a brief barrage of long range shots; but in a game like today, it would’ve been a case of the manager using intuition to instruct his players to do something different.

For tournament football, I’d honestly have a couple of outfield players spend a couple of hours on a few afternoons, just practising long range shooting from a variety of positions, circumstances, movements etc. Because in the slightly less regimented environment of international football, it is exactly the sort of thing that can open a game up by taking advantage of teams which aren’t as well drilled as club sides (no international team ever can be).

 

[TheBatman]

If nothing else, this proves how important Harry Kane is to England.

His heat-maps for Bayern Munich and England could not be more different. With Bayern Munich he spends the majority of his time in the opposition box. With England he's literally all over the place.

He drops so deep with England because he has to. The players behind him just aren't as creative as him, nor are they as good at passing.

England fans wax lyrical about their riches in the attacking areas. But how creative are these players when they don't create?

How many of these players play for teams in the top 5 in the EPL? 4: Foden, Watkins, Maddison, Saka.

If England fans genuinely think that the likes of Pep could win trophies with England and make them play like prime Brazil, they're wrong.

How many England players does Pep play for City? Walker and Foden.

Gareth Southgate is the scapegoat here. The simple truth is the midfield is weak. The fact that Henderson, Phillips and Gallagher are fighting for a starting spot is embarrassing. None of those three would get into the Scotland XI.

Also, this is Brazil. It may not be prime Brazil but it's still Brazil. I thought they played some great stuff and created about half a dozen chances.

Oh. Did Steve Bower give Sven "English shortbread"? English shortbread in a tartan tin. Nice. Thanks, Steven.

 

[Yagami]

We need a poll or something on how he's going to cost us this time.

A. Will we go 1-0 up against a relatively strong team early on, then park a bus, inviting relentless pressure on ourselves until we crumble again?

B. Will he refuse to play our most in form player again?

C. Something else.

 

[croadyman]

Amazes me how many England fans still can't see Southgate gets found wanting against the best. However this toxicity from ESPN is absolutely ridiculous and feel sorry for Americans

 

[LawCharltonBest]

Only if he starts at the right time, because he'll have his usual 3rd year meltdown.

If he's recruited after the Euros, then we might just have a chance of winning the World Cup before he implodes.

Time moves slower in international football. So I think that 3 years can stretch into double figures

I fancy Southgate would get sacked anywhere he went within a year or two and yet he’s been the England manager for centuries

 

[lex talionis]

If nothing else, this proves how important Harry Kane is to England.

His heat-maps for Bayern Munich and England could not be more different. With Bayern Munich he spends the majority of his time in the opposition box. With England he's literally all over the place.

He drops so deep with England because he has to. The players behind him just aren't as creative as him, nor are they as good at passing.

England fans wax lyrical about their riches in the attacking areas. But how creative are these players when they don't create?

How many of these players play for teams in the top 5 in the EPL? 4: Foden, Watkins, Maddison, Saka.

If England fans genuinely think that the likes of Pep could win trophies with England and make them play like prime Brazil, they're wrong.

How many England players does Pep play for City? Walker and Foden.

Gareth Southgate is the scapegoat here. The simple truth is the midfield is weak. The fact that Henderson, Phillips and Gallagher are fighting for a starting spot is embarrassing. None of those three would get into the Scotland XI.

Also, this is Brazil. It may not be prime Brazil but it's still Brazil. I thought they played some great stuff and created about half a dozen chances.

Oh. Did Steve Bower give Sven "English shortbread"? English shortbread in a tartan tin. Nice. Thanks, Steven.

Agreed, completely, however on the point the Henderson/Phillips/Gallagher all competing for the same position it does seem likely that Southgate will turn to Mainoo. And when he does, England’s midfield will dramatically improve.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

He’s a lucky boy coupled with being extremely negative/pragmatic.
He’s lucky that England have some super players and his negative approach means he’ll always get them at worst to do alright.

He’d be an utterly shit version of Mourinho as a club manager.

That said, the FA should be all over getting Mourinho in as national team manager, it’s an approach that works at national level and he’s just miles better Southgate at it.

 

[Powderfinger]

Long range shooting is somewhat of a lost art these days; but in instances like today where you need to draw the opposition out a bit; so you have some spaces to work your little passing triangles in - I think it would’ve been useful. The same pass, pass, pass mentality makes the approach very predictable, with the only variation thrown in being more crosses. Which again, is quite predictable.

A short period of well teed up long range shots, will at least force the opposition midfield to step up a little more to close down the shooter. This is a natural reaction after seeing your keeper have his palms stung by a couple of howitzers from distance. That then gives you just a little bit of space to drop into.

The problem is, data tells us long range shots have a very low xG, so no one does it anymore. And that’s the problem with data in football. It looks at the efficacy of individual actions in isolation, but it doesn’t look at their impact on the psychology of opposing players and consequently their positioning and movement in subsequent minutes. I’m sure an algorithm could be written to do exactly that I.e. heat maps for opposing CMs/DMs/CBs in the period following a brief barrage of long range shots; but in a game like today, it would’ve been a case of the manager using intuition to instruct his players to do something different.

For tournament football, I’d honestly have a couple of outfield players spend a couple of hours on a few afternoons, just practising long range shooting from a variety of positions, circumstances, movements etc. Because in the slightly less regimented environment of international football, it is exactly the sort of thing that can open a game up by taking advantage of teams which aren’t as well drilled as club sides (no international team ever can be).

But if the other team has been managed and trained with the same data in mind, then they’ve possibly been instructed not to worry about long range shots and, specifically, not to let a few long range shots change the depth and compactness of their block.

 

[Fortitude]

He’s a lucky boy coupled with being extremely negative/pragmatic.
He’s lucky that England have some super players and his negative approach means he’ll always get them at worst to do alright.

He’d be an utterly shit version of Mourinho as a club manager.

That said, the FA should be all over getting Mourinho in as national team manager, it’s an approach that works at national level and he’s just miles better Southgate at it.

This clamour for Mourinho is ill-timed. Normally I'd actually agree that he and England would be a good match, but this is a highly talented, technical bunch of players, not a bunch of cloggers and pace/power merchants.

Mourinho hasn't had any appreciation for raw talent and progressive football since he was forced to come out of his shell at Real lest he be strung up at the Bernebau.

Whilst it's unfair to say he has zero regard for the 'techno' players, and the likes of Rice and Bellingham would be just fine under him. It's the Mainoo's, Foden's, Saka's and anyone else who is player before athlete who are at jeopardy. Unless he reverted all the way back to his exciting Porto side with players like Deco and Maniche doing the heavy lifting in the team, there has to be a concern about Mourinho and the best bunch of technical players England have had in years.

Given the choice, Mourinho will donkey before he tries to do anything intricate and/or progressive, which is the antithesis to how this technical lot are being nurtured as well as those who will be coming up in the next few years.

I also think Mourinho liasing with club coaches that are enemies of his to have their players is a recipe for disaster. The man would have to relinquish pettiness that is his lifeblood; he's probably still not mature enough to do that, even now.

 

[giorno]

You just said you play your most consistent performers? So clearly it does matter? He's also put in a bunch of mistakes over the past 1-2 years for England.

I'm convinced you're on an elaborate windup regarding England/Southgate.

Ugh. Literally who gives a flying feck about friendlies. What matters is how these guys perform in the summer. If you got a player who's been great in 3 tournaments you're not gonna drop him, because why the feck would you. He's proven to be reliable. You have so few certainties in international football, of fecking course you stick by the ones you do have

 

[SilentWitness]

Ugh. Literally who gives a flying feck about friendlies. What matters is how these guys perform in the summer. If you got a player who's been great in 3 tournaments you're not gonna drop him, because why the feck would you. He's proven to be reliable. You have so few certainties in international football, of fecking course you stick by the ones you do have

Because he is trash at 1 Vs 1 defending and will cost you in the games against the top sides as we have seen when England play Germany, Brazil, France etc.

 

[giorno]

Because he is trash at 1 Vs 1 defending and will cost you in the games against the top sides as we have seen when England play Germany, Brazil, France etc.

England beat Germany when they met. They haven't played against Brazil. Explain to me how he cost them against France

 

[SilentWitness]

England beat Germany when they met. They haven't played against Brazil. Explain to me how he cost them against France

ok. there is no point discussing England or Southgate with you. Have a good day.

 

[Lentwood]

The problem is, data tells us long range shots have a very low xG, so no one does it anymore. And that’s the problem with data in football.

Low xG isn't the only issue with long shots though, its also the fact they give the ball away. You might not get it back for 5-10mins against a good side. Or you might present the opposition a chance to counter attack.

 

[christinaa]

Southgate is still stuck in his managing Middlesbrough era.

 

[Mogget]

You just said you play your most consistent performers? So clearly it does matter? He's also put in a bunch of mistakes over the past 1-2 years for England.

I'm convinced you're on an elaborate windup regarding England/Southgate.

It's not elaborate at all, it's fairly blatant

 

[Doracle]

I think the main benefit of last night is that it should solidify the starting 11 for the Euros (if everyone is fit):

Pickford, Walker, Stones, Maguire, Shaw, Rice, Mainoo, Bellingham, Rashford, Kane, Saka

Foden continued to underwhelm in an England shirt and Gallagher, Chilwell and Gordon looked a long way away from the quality needed at international level. Bowen looked good I thought but he isn’t overtaking Saka and Foden for that right wing slot.

Suspect Southgate may start Gallagher over Mainoo but I hope that there is time in the remaining matches before then for that to become impossible.

 

[Hammondo]

I'm gonna get attacked for this but I think midfield is our weakest area, I think it causes most of our problems.

I think Rice + Bellingham is a bad idea, who players who are physical over technical leaves the technical stuff down to 1 player in midfield. Also neither are great passers, so what are we building here exactly? Very stale in midfield all game, and changing the one other midfielder will not fix this.

 

[SilentWitness]

I think the main benefit of last night is that it should solidify the starting 11 for the Euros (if everyone is fit):

Pickford, Walker, Stones, Maguire, Shaw, Rice, Mainoo, Bellingham, Rashford, Kane, Saka

Foden continued to underwhelm in an England shirt and Gallagher, Chilwell and Gordon looked a long way away from the quality needed at international level. Bowen looked good I thought but he isn’t overtaking Saka and Foden for that right wing slot.

Suspect Southgate may start Gallagher over Mainoo but I hope that there is time in the remaining matches before then for that to become impossible.

Huh? Gordon was one of the few players that did well, especially for a debut performance.

 

[LordSpud]

I've been saying all week England will win the Euros. Now I'm unsure. Is it genuinely because Southgate is useless or are the English players just really not that good either and only made to look good due to the foreign players they play alongside?

 

[Marwood]

If nothing else, this proves how important Harry Kane is to England.

His heat-maps for Bayern Munich and England could not be more different. With Bayern Munich he spends the majority of his time in the opposition box. With England he's literally all over the place.

He drops so deep with England because he has to. The players behind him just aren't as creative as him, nor are they as good at passing.

England fans wax lyrical about their riches in the attacking areas. But how creative are these players when they don't create?

How many of these players play for teams in the top 5 in the EPL? 4: Foden, Watkins, Maddison, Saka.

If England fans genuinely think that the likes of Pep could win trophies with England and make them play like prime Brazil, they're wrong.

How many England players does Pep play for City? Walker and Foden.

Gareth Southgate is the scapegoat here. The simple truth is the midfield is weak. The fact that Henderson, Phillips and Gallagher are fighting for a starting spot is embarrassing. None of those three would get into the Scotland XI.

Also, this is Brazil. It may not be prime Brazil but it's still Brazil. I thought they played some great stuff and created about half a dozen chances.

Oh. Did Steve Bower give Sven "English shortbread"? English shortbread in a tartan tin. Nice. Thanks, Steven.

Henderson, Phillips and Gallagher are fighting for a spot because of Southgate. Those options aren't some immovable part of the England set up that Southgate has no option but to play.

 

[Smithy89]

Chilwell, Dunk and Gallagher are the pits. Wtf are they doing in the team.

 

[Ayoba]

I think the main benefit of last night is that it should solidify the starting 11 for the Euros (if everyone is fit):

Pickford, Walker, Stones, Maguire, Shaw, Rice, Mainoo, Bellingham, Rashford, Kane, Saka

Foden continued to underwhelm in an England shirt and Gallagher, Chilwell and Gordon looked a long way away from the quality needed at international level. Bowen looked good I thought but he isn’t overtaking Saka and Foden for that right wing slot.

Suspect Southgate may start Gallagher over Mainoo but I hope that there is time in the remaining matches before then for that to become impossible.

Gordon over rashford for me

 

[Hammondo]

Gordon over rashford for me

He's looking good.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

Southgate has never had any idea what to do with Foden or how to get him into central areas, knows he has to play him to avoid media scrutiny but also knows hed much rather have another speed merchant out wide (same situation as Grealish)

 

[Doracle]

I've been saying all week England will win the Euros. Now I'm unsure. Is it genuinely because Southgate is useless or are the English players just really not that good either and only made to look good due to the foreign players they play alongside?

I wouldn’t read much into last night. England played without the front 3 who should start the Euros (and Kane is obviously particularly important) and had nothing from the fullbacks (Chilwell was awful all match and Konsa was tidy enough but doesn’t add anything in an attacking sense). Southgate is perfectly capable of messing up but I’m confident England will look a lot better in the Euros.

 

[Smithy89]

Southgate has never had any idea what to do with Foden or how to get him into central areas, knows he has to play him to avoid media scrutiny but also knows hed much rather have another speed merchant out wide (same situation as Grealish)

He has no idea what to do with anyone close to or at the elite level.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

I'm gonna get attacked for this but I think midfield is our weakest area, I think it causes most of our problems.

I think Rice + Bellingham is a bad idea, who players who are physical over technical leaves the technical stuff down to 1 player in midfield. Also neither are great passers, so what are we building here exactly? Very stale in midfield all game, and changing the one other midfielder will not fix this.

I believe the main issue is the overall approach. Not change the approach completely, but add things to it. Both Rice and Bellingham are key parts for teams that see a lot of the ball in their respective leagues. You can't criticize them for being "ball-shy", either. They're not hiding, they show up for the ball.

Southgate has settled on tactics that seem to have his England sides always in the mix (but he hasn't managed to make them take that final step). I don't think he's unaware of the talent at his disposal, but he does put a lot of faith in their ability to do the job off the ball. Which, among other things, kind of explains his fixation with Maguire (your typical centre-half in the box) and the image of Rice (for people who never bothered to watch him more closely) as a pure destroyer.

It is what it is, i guess. Although you wouldn't advocate for such an approach at club level, it has served him well at NT level. In the long run, England will need to go down a different route. If anything, because the profiles for certain positions on the pitch have changed and many academies have adjusted accordingly. But, for now, he might just do the trick because England can be competitive by playing this way even if it seems like a waste of talent on the bad days. Which isn't an out-and-out bad thing. The Germans, who have been very underwhelming, live and die with the ball (the approach everyone wants right here and now). If they're forced to defend or get stretched for substantial periods, their defensive actions remind you of the bumper cars in the theme parks. Their win yesterday raised a few eyebrows, then you look at the stats: The lion's share of possession, with Kroos completing 121/128(!!!) passes. I think they'll struggle to replicate it in the competition proper,too.

 

[Rojofiam]

That's the thing though, he's either decent or makes mistakes and is poor now, he did his job but it's time to move on.

Southgate won't, and shouldn't start phasing out key players when a major international tournament is starting in 3 months.

 

[Laurencio]

I've been saying all week England will win the Euros. Now I'm unsure. Is it genuinely because Southgate is useless or are the English players just really not that good either and only made to look good due to the foreign players they play alongside?

The best XI has a phenomenal midfield and attack, but I'm not sure the defence - aside from Stones - would make it in another NT and behind the first XI - particularly up top - there's a fairly significant drop in quality.

I wouldn't assume much based on the Brazil match though. This team still look like strong contenders to me. Mainoo, Rice, Bellingham midfield is what dreams are made of.

 

[Rojofiam]

I've been saying all week England will win the Euros. Now I'm unsure. Is it genuinely because Southgate is useless or are the English players just really not that good either and only made to look good due to the foreign players they play alongside?

Come on man, their B team would be serious contenders for the trophy. They're really good AND stacked.