McGrath, Lee, Gillespie. Or Lillie and Thompson
English cricket thread
- Thread starter Samid
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This aussie side is very good especially at home. The more I think about how India beat them in their own backyard makes the series win even more special.
Cummins and Hazelwood are better than Brett Lee and Gillespie. Starc is better than Brett Lee.
Cummins will finish in top3 Aussie pacers ever. Bloke is a freak.
Agreed. Pretty weird takes here to undermine them.
I agree with Cummins, he's going to be right up there. Hazelwood isn't exactly new and doesn't show anything stats-wise that he's above the other two. Better economy, lower strike rate but it's a stretch to say he's definitely better.
No-ones undermining them, it's a comparison of a bowling attack who took wickets in a winning outfit for a decade against a very good bowling attack now. At the moment if I had a choice I'd go for McGrath, Cummins and choose the other based on the ground or opposition.
I had this discussion with my colleague yesterday. IMO Starc is about level with Lee (if not slightly better) and Hazelwood is better than Gillespie.
I actually think Cummins has potential to be better than McGrath provided he can have that length of a career.
If not for the Warne factor (and no disrespect to Nathan Lyon who is more than handy in his own right), this bowling attack is better than early 2000’s. You take out Warne and play McGill instead and current squad is better.
But Shane Warne is the goat since Bradman and he elevates nearly every bowling attack to world class. My god I can’t stand him as a commentator but watch some of his highlights… bloke was a genius
I actually think Cummins has potential to be better than McGrath provided he can have that length of a career.
If not for the Warne factor (and no disrespect to Nathan Lyon who is more than handy in his own right), this bowling attack is better than early 2000’s. You take out Warne and play McGill instead and current squad is better.
But Shane Warne is the goat since Bradman and he elevates nearly every bowling attack to world class. My god I can’t stand him as a commentator but watch some of his highlights… bloke was a genius
I don't think this Aussie bowling lineup is necessarily as good as past ones.
Stats wise there is an argument but I think a lot of the batting is weaker. I think the quality has been extremely diluted by short forms of cricket. Fewer people coming through tuned into test cricket and the ones that are represent a fraction of the talent pool. That's less advantageous for batting than for bowling because batsman only have to cockup once and a lot of this lot haven't got the skill and mental application.
England have very few standout test batsman apart from Root. Even Stokes is a bit overrated. An average in the mid 30s some time ago would have you seen as a competent batsman but not especially noteworthy but we're looking to him like he's a saviour.
The fact is we're struggling to produce people who can average 40 in test cricket which is pretty much a benchmark for a solid player. You can't go to Australia with these no hopers and expect much. So I'd say these Aussies are great for the era but not necessarily as great as past eras, particularly ones that knocked over good England sides under Vaughan.
Stats wise there is an argument but I think a lot of the batting is weaker. I think the quality has been extremely diluted by short forms of cricket. Fewer people coming through tuned into test cricket and the ones that are represent a fraction of the talent pool. That's less advantageous for batting than for bowling because batsman only have to cockup once and a lot of this lot haven't got the skill and mental application.
England have very few standout test batsman apart from Root. Even Stokes is a bit overrated. An average in the mid 30s some time ago would have you seen as a competent batsman but not especially noteworthy but we're looking to him like he's a saviour.
The fact is we're struggling to produce people who can average 40 in test cricket which is pretty much a benchmark for a solid player. You can't go to Australia with these no hopers and expect much. So I'd say these Aussies are great for the era but not necessarily as great as past eras, particularly ones that knocked over good England sides under Vaughan.
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Have said this for a while. Broad and Anderson have far too much influence. The English commentators always joke about it, saying how the captain has a tough job bringing them into line. It's ridiculous.
Fair points. But here are some other facts.Root is averaging below 30 in this series, and averaged 9.5 in the SL series with the ball but let's not waste any time in fighting windmills with pitches in India
And Anderson is averaging 20 and 23 with the ball in the last two years.
Cliches aren't facts.
Since that great win in Australia in 2010-11 England have played 38 tests away to the big four sides (Australia, NZ, India and Pakistan). They've won 3, drawn 7 and lost 28.
That's an appalling record and it's all happened when Broad and Anderson have supposedly been at their peak.
So it seems the best course of action is to move on from them and build a more pace-focused attack, wouldn't you agree?
Regarding Anderson's average: I'd argue that he's quite a defensive bowler in most conditions, which means he doesn't go for many runs but doesn't threaten much either (a point that was raised in Adelaide). When conditions suit him he often cashes him, but we need bowlers who are going to do it in all conditions if we're going to be a top side.
To put it bluntly, the England team are void of decent Test batsman. Silverwood is out of his depth as a coach. Root as captain is just so predictable and boring.
The Yorkshire buddies are passing the blame for their incompetence and choosing the wrong teams.
The Yorkshire buddies are passing the blame for their incompetence and choosing the wrong teams.
Is this correct because they have won 3 tests in India itself that means they haven't won even single away test in Pak , NZ, Aus since then .
And why have you ignored SA is it to beef up your point.
That's correct. We haven't won a single test in any of the other three countries.
And SA have been pretty weak during this time period tbh, so didn't feel it was worth including.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/59740346
England have a captain that cannot captain spinners other than himself, apparently cannot get the 2 best bowlers in the history of English cricket to bowl the lengths he wants and breaks the legit fast bowlers he does manage to get his hands on.
It’s hard to see what England can really do with the batsmen they have but they absolutely must change coach and captain after this series.
The good news keeps coming for England.
England have a captain that cannot captain spinners other than himself, apparently cannot get the 2 best bowlers in the history of English cricket to bowl the lengths he wants and breaks the legit fast bowlers he does manage to get his hands on.
It’s hard to see what England can really do with the batsmen they have but they absolutely must change coach and captain after this series.
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I think your being a bit harsh on SA there, I would say your not including them to try and make the point because England's record in SA recently is pretty admirable and somewhat skews the stats.
Its our record in AUS since the 10/11 series which is horrifying in all honesty, blown away by Mitchell Johnson in 13/14 somewhat but the last tour was very poor and this one is shaping up to be almost exactly the same limp unthreating bowling attack and a very brittle batting line up. We picked broad, Anderson and woakes for most of the last tour and they were pretty poor in AUS conditions yet here we are again with Anderson, Woakes and Broad looking pretty harmless in AUS. All that time to 'plan' and our plan is exactly the same as the last tour that we lost 4-0.
https://www.ecb.co.uk/news/2424799/jofra-archer-ruled-out-until-next-summer
Should retire from test cricket
Should retire from test cricket
Still only 26 and has value as a stock 85-86mph line and length quick, who can tick it up a notch (e.g. be our Pat Cummins rather than Mitchell Johnson of 2013/14). England have handled him completely wrong and in many ways, that spell to Smith was probably the worst thing that could have happened to him (he didn’t even get him out!). Definitely worth considering whether it’s worth him playing tests though because he has massive value in the shorter formats and England have also missed out on winning the T20 World Cup because of how they have managed him.
Agree. England have been given a ferrari and knackered the engine by driving it everywhere in first gear. Another indictment of the current regime I'm afraid.
Yep. Appointing Silverwood over Kristen is looking a bigger cock-up by the day.
What’s the bit in bold about?
Don't buy this handling wrong business. He may not have been used well in one match but he's a fast bowler and he's picked up an injury just like Ollie Stone has. This one is just too complicated. It's not England's fault.
Your comments about breaking bowlers is ridiculous. He hasn't broken anyone. Leach has played in plenty of matches with Root and has an ok test record. The selections for the first two matches were all over the shop. As for bowling lengths, that was a strange comment and you expect him to tell them on the pitch if they are bowling the wrong lengths.
Who exactly are we changing captain to? I agree that the coach needs to go, he has no international experience and we needed someone with more experience at that level.
This is the whole problem. Can't get runs on the board so cannot create any pressure. Real struggle for top batsmen at the moment.
It'd be Stokes.
EDIT - Actually, I think it would be offered to Stokes. I'm less confident he'd take it.
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With respect to Archer and breaking him. Whilst I agree fast bowling is an occupational hazard I still think England collectively (including Root and Silverwood) need to cop some flak for their handling of him. Of course it may have been a matter of time within the limits of his body but they did a bad job in protecting him and listening to him in the very early part of his test career.
In his debut at Lords he bowled 44 overs, Broad bowled 34 and Woakes (who has an amazing record at Lords) bowled 22.
After a poor spell in his 3rd test where commentators were analysing his run-in speed (which I have never seen before or since), here’s an excerpt from George Dobell at the time:
Nothing especially concerning in those Silverwood (bowling coach at the time) comments but the ‘effort’ Archer was perceived to have put in has underscored his entire test career and I believe it has contributed to him pushing beyond his physical limits.
At the end of that first series, Trevor Bayliss said this:
In Archer’s next test in New Zealand (with Silverwood as coach) he bowled 42 overs in an innings, 7 more than any other seamer and only 5 fewer than Jack Leach.
Archer then played 1 test in South Africa before complaining of an elbow injury, they scanned him, said there was only bruising and kept him on tour. He was then pushed to prove his fitness for the 3rd test in competition with Mark Wood, again quoting Dobell:
Joe Root also said this at the time:
Archer then did show an improvement in pace prior to the 4th test at the Wanderers, only to break down in the warm-ups and then be diagnosed with a stress fracture two weeks later which is the injury he’s still struggling with. Only after Archer got injured did Silverwood admit that they might need to use him in shorter bursts even though Bayliss already suggested as much before that test in New Zealand.
From a medical perspective, it’s gone from bruising, to stress fracture and a condition to manage, to 2 full blown operations to fix. I believe that in South Africa, Archer’s concerns were written off as nothing more than him not applying himself fully and that the failure to address his concerns appropriately are why we are where we are with his injury status right now.
It’s vitally important that England learn from this, so that when we do get properly quick bowlers, we find ways to get them fit for key away tours.
Leach does have a good record but Leach, Ali and Bess have all looked completely devoid of confidence at one point in time under Root. I don’t believe that is a coincidence. I’m not suggesting anything sinister of Root here either, I think the world of him as a player and ambassador for English cricket. My belief is that in general Root is not very sure of how to handle spinners, he loses confidence in them very quickly and the players sense this straight away and it carries over into their game.
I don’t know who England change captain to. I imagine Stokes is the only person on the team who can truly inspire those around him but it would bizarre to lumber him the captaincy when he’s already had to take a mental health break from the game.
On a surface level Root’s record as captain is decent, no other England captain more test wins than him (no one else has as many losses either mind you). You can also argue there’s little he can do with such a weak batting lineup but a bulk of a captain’s work is done in the field. England consistently make incorrect team selections, make bad decisions at the toss, lose focus in the field, take daft reviews and spend large periods of time executing the wrong plans. These are the things that can only really get fixed by a change of captain. Perhaps a top, top coach can reign in Root’s instinct for over complicating things and resorting to funkiness for the sake of trying to ‘make things happen’ but Root is extremely experienced he really has no excuse for the lack of conviction his captaincy often displays. Ian Chappell and Ricky Ponting’s comments on his captaincy over recent days are spot on, the unfortunate reality is we probably don’t have much choice but to stick with him.
England seem to have a long history with its ineffectiveness with spinners. It's been a constant theme which was only broken by Panesar and Swann but we've gone back to it again. There are great talents such as Virdi and Parkinson coming through. Ali was always going to be a spinner for home conditions and a back up or second spinner for away matches. He was never suited to take on chief spinning duties away from him.
I agree with your other comments but I don't think Stokes would take the role and Buttler's position is in doubt so not sure if he would be offered it. Outside of that, you are struggling for contenders.
I'd consider making Malan the skipper after this tour is done. Ok he's not proven he can do the business in anything other than Aussie conditions really but then which batsmen have? We're always carrying people in the batting lineup anyway so let's call him a captain who bats, let Root and Stokes focus on the batting and bowling, see how we go. He's plenty experienced and you'd hope has learned a thing or two from Morgan over the years, what's the harm in trying it?
It largely worked with Tim Paine for Australia even though he didn't really merit a place as either batsman or keeper. He got them through a tough time and let them build on the talents they did/do have in the side.
It largely worked with Tim Paine for Australia even though he didn't really merit a place as either batsman or keeper. He got them through a tough time and let them build on the talents they did/do have in the side.
Buttler should be the captain if he wants to continue playing tests. He can play at 7 and average 30 which is a perfectly acceptable average for that position. Just stop comparing him with Buttler the limited overs player.
Is he a good captain though? Fair enough if we think we can't do any better at keeper, although I liked the look of Chris Benjamin - perhaps he's too inexperienced still. Buttler for a couple of years isn't a bad shout. At least his batting average couldn't get much worse as captain as it's pretty pish to start with.
Great summary. Agree completely.
The management of Archer has been the most damning indictment of Root and Silverwood. Was listening to a podcast with Jarred Kimber and Barney Ronay and they said he was taking pain-killers to get through the World Cup. That was before he even bowled a ball in test cricket.
When Archer played that first test at Lord's and knocked Smith out, England clearly thought they had a new wonder-weapon and any thought of restraint or sensible management went out of the window.
Since then, there's been loads of innuendo and speculation about his attitude, as you say. I think Ronay insinuated that it was racist, which is hard to prove, but you can't imagine there'd have been so much criticism of a bowler like Chris Woakes or Stuart Broad can you.
The craziest thing of all, for me, was those overs he bowled in New Zealand straight after the Ashes tour. The pitch was lifeless and it wasn't even for WTC points!!!! Madness, utter madness. Why didn't they give him the tour off?
Anyway, let's hope he recovers. Plenty of bowlers have come back from long-term injuries - Pat Cummins is a prime example. Dennis Lillee even broke his back and came back!
If we'd batted properly in the first innings, then we wouldn't have been in that position in the first place. We only had ourselves to blame.
The team for the 3rd test looks the most balanced so far, It's a huge opportunity for Crawley we really need the openers to deliver.
Rain on Boxing Day, this is pretty annoying considering I’m still awake and actually started looking forward to catching some of it.
Probably just as well
Match starts in 30 minutes
Australia win the toss and bowl first
The greenest of green tops in overcast conditions put in to bat 2-0 down in the boxing day test with 90000 in.
It doesn't get any more difficult than that for an English batting lineup and this is the flakiest English batting lineup I can remember.
Time for someone or a few people to make themselves heros? Or more likely time to kiss goodbye to the Ashes (again).
It doesn't get any more difficult than that for an English batting lineup and this is the flakiest English batting lineup I can remember.
Time for someone or a few people to make themselves heros? Or more likely time to kiss goodbye to the Ashes (again).
Merry Christmas Australia have a quick free wicket.
That's it for me. Night chaps.