Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager / awaiting clarity from the club over his position

[ShamrockD]

The root of our problems is the unbalanced midfield, especially in the attacking phase but also during defensive transition.

I would consider these four values as mandatory for a functional and good midfield.

1. Defensive ability
2. Creativity
3. Ball control/Possession
4. Ball carries

We just have too many one dimensional midfielders. Maybe they possess one of the above values in world class level, but they can be pretty mediocre or even terrible in the other ones. Casemiro is world class at defending but that is it. Bruno is world class at creativity but that is it. We have created quite a conundrum with these two by trying to find the right person to pair them. We have brought ourselves in a situation where the only person who can make it tick could be De Jong, since he is one of the rare breed who can be good at everything and bring the missing balance.You cannot bring Mount and expect him to develop into something like that. You should just not place yourself in that situation. I cannot see how a midfield with these two would ever work.

Casemiro has proved that he can be amazing, but only when he was paired with ball controlling midfielders, who could create, keep and carry the ball. Bruno has not proved anything. He has shown his best only when he was protected by Fred and Mctominay under OGS and he was in the form of his life, under counterattacking football of a low block. He cannot carry the ball, he cannot keep it and at his bad form, oh my he is such a liability. I am sorry, but the full faith in Bruno will be the end of ETH, he has read this so wrong in my opinion. He had the balls to bench/end Ronaldo, Maguire, Sancho etc. He needs to find the balls to try a functional midfield without Bruno.

On top of the above, ETH has changed our build up this year. One one hand, he has solved the problem of De Gea, since we could not handle teams who pressed us up high, but, on the other hand another problem appeared since he switched from the double pivot to a single pivot during our build up. It is obvious that our players cannot make this work, either they do not fit this system and the single pivot ends up pretty isolated, or they do not understand it at all. Andy Mitten said something similar in the Talk of the Devils podcast. It seems like they do not get what is asked. This is what we are seeing from the start of the season and why we are also bad when teams cutting us through. There a couple of minutes here and there, like the first 20 min against Brighton and Tottenham, where our pressing worked and we dominated. But when it does not work, everything looks so out of balance. I do not understand, to be honest, where Ten Hag wants to go with this, but I think he has earned the right to be given more time for a fair judgment.

For now, the only way I see it going forward is with Amrabat/Casemiro (Defend) - Mount/Mejbri (Carry/Create/Defend)- Eriksen (Control/Create) and a 3-2-5 buildup instead of 3-1-6. Unfortunately, Eriksen is so needed. We do not have his calmness and control of the ball, since again our recruiting has failed us.

Of course, more problems exist. With the injuries we are missing the build up from the defense with Varane, Shaw and Martinez and we are even worse than we should. And the forward players are so out of form. I know that again we have some one-dimensional people there like Rashford and Anthony, but that is another dicussion. The first priority for me is to fix that hole in the middle of the pitch. It was also obvious today, since in the second half with a few tweaks like Amrabat coming to the back line, Bruno near the deeplying role and Eriksen in, we were looking much more functional.

 

[el3mel]

"Let's keep an awful manager in job because once in our entire life time do a manager succeeded after 5 years and went on to become the best manager in history"

Unbelievable argument yet keeps getting repeated whenever any of our manager is doing an awful job.

Just give Ten Hag or Ole 5 years and they will turn into the best manager in football history.

 

[Dec9003]

Yes. That’s the whole point of my post. If you don’t “put up with it” now you will never see the club, as a whole, move forward. Many, many people would have sacked SAF after six months. The same was true then as now - a huge job with no quick fix. We played some damned awful stuff under SAF but we stuck with him. It wasn’t until we signed Cantona that we really started looking like serial winners.

Okay but ignoring arguably the greatest manager of all time that took over what was essentially a different football club in a different era, what is happening at the club that makes it worth putting more time into this project? Fergie was completely revamping the squad and the youth team, he had a hand in everything. Ten Hag is a head coach that obviously has a big sway in transfers, but I’d say only maybe Martinez, Eriksen and Casemiro have been outright successful, and two of them aren’t long term signings. I just don’t see how letting him sign more Eredivise players for three more years gets us anywhere near winning the league.

 

[alexthelion]

The point was nonsensical really. As mentioned sir Alex really was a special manager and there is literally no evidence that eth can replicate what he did with more time and it would be unreasonable to expect him to do so. At the moment it's really hard to imagine him getting us to play entertaining attacking football

He certainly wasn't when he came to United, and not for a few years after that either.

This is a silly argument, SAF was hearly sacked because he wasn't succeeding.

 

[el3mel]

It blows my mind that anyone thinks changing the manager and giving him 18 months to undo 10 years of shit is a good idea.

18 months is far more than enough time to build a team capable of playing good football for any club in the world bar United, in which their fans convince themselves you need at least 5 years and 2 billions spent while changing the owners in the process to play good football.

Newcastle have become an established top 4 team within one year of investment, for God's sake.

The problem is, and what is really mind blowing, is that your nonsensical argument was discussed to death and debunked under all our previous managers in the post Ferguson era shortly before they got sacked.

United fans are allergic to learning. Keep waiting for the new Ferguson who will succeed after 5 years of patience.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

It blows my mind that anyone thinks changing the manager and giving him 18 months to undo 10 years of shit is a good idea.

How much time do you think he deserves?

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

"Let's keep an awful manager in job because once in our entire life time do a manager succeeded after 5 years and went on to become the best manager in history"

Unbelievable argument yet keeps getting repeated whenever any of our manager is doing an awful.

Just give Ten Hag or Ole 5 years and they will turn into the best manager in football history.

Some of our fans deserve mediocrity in reality.

 

[MacarisSocks]

It's blowing my mind some are still bringing Ferguson as an excuse to keep an awful manager in job. This point has been literally discussed to death so many times under all our previous managers yet with every new one the same tiresome argument keeps getting repeated.

Arteta ?

 

[ayushreddevil9]

"Let's keep an awful manager in job because once in our entire life time do a manager succeeded after 5 years and went on to become the best manager in history"

Unbelievable argument yet keeps getting repeated whenever any of our manager is doing an awful job.

Just give Ten Hag or Ole 5 years and they will turn into the best manager in football history.

Couldn't agree more. Just because SAF worked, giving time to anyone will basically turn him into SAF 2.0

 

[Matt851]

He certainly wasn't when he came to United, and not for a few years after that either.

This is a silly argument, SAF was hearly sacked because he wasn't succeeding.

Well his achievement of overthrowing the old firm in Scotland was pretty impressive. Anyway my point was you could point to many more examples of managers given lots of time and not improving. It's very unlikely someone struggling badly in their second season is going to end up as one of the greatest managers of all time

Anyway sir Alex was a long time ago and the constant harking back to those days is one of many things that has held the club back

 

[Superunknown]

Couldn't watch the game tonight as I was out, so could only catch the highlights on Match of the Day. Don't think I really missed much by the looks of things.

The football is just dull. There's so many other teams right now who play more exciting football than we do. I don't see anything that makes me think it'll change any time soon either. Think most fans have accepted that this is the type of football that we're churning out this season and will continue to churn out.

 

[OrcaFat]

Okay but ignoring arguably the greatest manager of all time that took over what was essentially a different football club in a different era, what is happening at the club that makes it worth putting more time into this project? Fergie was completely revamping the squad and the youth team, he had a hand in everything. Ten Hag is a head coach that obviously has a big sway in transfers, but I’d say only maybe Martinez, Eriksen and Casemiro have been outright successful, and two of them aren’t long term signings. I just don’t see how letting him sign more Eredivise players for three more years gets us anywhere near winning the league.

The point is, it doesn’t matter if you are Ferguson or Mike Bassett you need time to do this job. You are doing exactly what I said we shouldn’t do - picking out some of the signings you don’t like and extrapolating from there that EtH will only sign bad players. Every manager we’ve had has signed bad players. Every manager we’ve had has played like shit, looked clueless and got beat many times.

We have to let the plan play out for once. Over a long period, we will see the team resemble the manager’s vision. Nobody knows if it is going to be enough but it is better to push through the development period instead of starting a new cycle and cutting that one short when (shock!) we don’t look like world beaters after one season and nine games.

 

[PlayerOne]

It’s foolish to fail to acknowledge that Shaw and Martinez are absolutely vital to the style of play.

Last season Martinez was transformational in his style and ball playing.

Our football was awful to watch for large amount of times last season too, with those players fit.

I don't doubt things will improve with some players back from injury but it won't be huge improvement. This is his odd style.

 

[KD6-3.7]

Well ten hag has brought in enough players for us to have seen a difference on that front by now

This is an issue every manager has had post Ferguson. You could count on two hands the amount of games we have dominated for an entire 90 minutes.

Our players just completely sh*t themselves anytime there's a bit of pressure from the opposition, just a basic lack of composure from everyone.

 

[Dec9003]

The point is, it doesn’t matter if you are Ferguson or Mike Bassett you need time to do this job. You are doing exactly what I said we shouldn’t do - picking out some of the signings you don’t like and extrapolating from there that EtH will only sign bad players. Every manager we’ve had has signed bad players. Every manager we’ve had has played like shit, looked clueless and got beat many times.

We have to let the plan play out for once. Over a long period, we will see the team resemble the manager’s vision. Nobody knows if it is going to be enough but it is better to push through the development period instead of starting a new cycle and cutting that one short when (shock!) we don’t look like world beaters after one season and nine games.

We can’t ignore the growing collection of bad signings, team selections and tactics. If we do that then yeah I’m all for backing Ten Hag because we’ll only be looking at what has gone well. I don’t think that many managers could get us challenging overnight, but after a dodgy transfer window that was criticised at the time we look to have gone backward. This is the plan playing out so far, it’s not good enough. The shape isn’t good, the lineups aren’t good and for the most part the signings aren’t good. Back people that give you a reason to, not because you feel like you have to.

 

[Matt851]

The point is, it doesn’t matter if you are Ferguson or Mike Bassett you need time to do this job. You are doing exactly what I said we shouldn’t do - picking out some of the signings you don’t like and extrapolating from there that EtH will only sign bad players. Every manager we’ve had has signed bad players. Every manager we’ve had has played like shit, looked clueless and got beat many times.

We have to let the plan play out for once. Over a long period, we will see the team resemble the manager’s vision. Nobody knows if it is going to be enough but it is better to push through the development period instead of starting a new cycle and cutting that one short when (shock!) we don’t look like world beaters after one season and nine games.

Yes we should continue backing his plan with vast amounts of money for a few years without even considering whether jts a good plan and whether we are making progress. That sounds like a recipe for success

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

The point is, it doesn’t matter if you are Ferguson or Mike Bassett you need time to do this job. You are doing exactly what I said we shouldn’t do - picking out some of the signings you don’t like and extrapolating from there that EtH will only sign bad players. Every manager we’ve had has signed bad players. Every manager we’ve had has played like shit, looked clueless and got beat many times.

We have to let the plan play out for once. Over a long period, we will see the team resemble the manager’s vision. Nobody knows if it is going to be enough but it is better to push through the development period instead of starting a new cycle and cutting that one short when (shock!) we don’t look like world beaters after one season and nine games.

This is exactly the kind of attitude that has led the club to be in the position it’s in now. You fans who happily accept mediocrity.

You say the players will eventually accept “the managers vision”, but what exactly is this? There is seemingly no game plan. And this isn’t something new, it’s been the cast for nearly 12 months now.

 

[TheReligion]

What exactly is the style of play and why has losing two players completely messed it up? We don’t seem to be particularly well coached and the shape is a mess regardless of the defensive choices.

Martinez is very good, Shaw is good on his day. Neither are going to completely revamp out style of play and they’ve shown that when they played this season.

Sorry but you don’t have a clue

 

[Dec9003]

Sorry but you don’t have a clue

Rather than attacking me personally, please could you tell me what style of play the manager is currently trying to implement, if you can that is.

 

[TheReligion]

Rather than attacking me personally, please could you tell me what style of play the manager is currently trying to implement, if you can that is.

I’m not explaining basic things for you.

If you don’t understand the importance of Martinez and Shaw then that’s on you.

 

[Dec9003]

I’m not explaining basic things for you.

If you don’t understand the importance of Martinez and Shaw then that’s on you.

Okay so you can’t explain tactically what Ten Hag is trying to implement, I thought as much. Martinez and Shaw are absolutely important, but they’re not the difference between being having a good season and being where we are and playing the football that we do.

 

[OrcaFat]

We can’t ignore the growing collection of bad signings, team selections and tactics. If we do that then yeah I’m all for backing Ten Hag because we’ll only be looking at what has gone well. I don’t think that many managers could get us challenging overnight, but after a dodgy transfer window that was criticised at the time we look to have gone backward. This is the plan playing out so far, it’s not good enough. The shape isn’t good, the lineups aren’t good and for the most part the signings aren’t good. Back people that give you a reason to, not because you feel like you have to.

I don’t think you are drawing balanced conclusions from what is actually happening. It’s mixed. That’s what happens in the early stages of a complete overhaul.

You are, I gather, judging new players after a handful of games and making no allowance for disruption to the team and changes to the system. Again, this is what we have to get away from.

I see enough to be encouraged that the manager has the strength of personality and commitment to his principles to succeed in the long term. Anyone expecting quick success probably needs to review their expectations and this ought to be obvious from looking at the last ten years.

 

[TheReligion]

Okay so you can’t explain tactically what Ten Hag is trying to implement, I thought as much. Martinez and Shaw are absolutely important, but they’re not the difference between being having a good season and being where we are and playing the football that we do.

I don’t need to explain anything.

You need to pay more attention before making silly, sweeping, misinformed comments.

 

[OrcaFat]

How much time do you think he deserves?

I wouldn’t give him any time based on what I think he deserves. It’s not about what’s fair to him at all.

 

[Dec9003]

I don’t think you are drawing balanced conclusions from what is actually happening. It’s mixed. That’s what happens in the early stages of a complete overhaul.

You are, I gather, judging new players after a handful of games and making no allowance for disruption to the team and changes to the system. Again, this is what we have to get away from.

I see enough to be encouraged that the manager has the strength of personality and commitment to his principles to succeed in the long term. Anyone expecting quick success probably needs to review their expectations and this ought to be obvious from looking at the last ten years.

I’m not judging any of the new players, I’ve not seen enough of them. I’m judging Weghorst, Antony, Malacia, Casemiro (tactically, I think he would still play with a different system) fair enough if you think the manager has what it takes, I simply don’t. I don’t think he has strong tactical principles and to me the way he describes the game doesn’t necessarily fit the profile of player he looks at, which is the main reason I don’t think he’s right for us.

 

[Redstain]

I can understand all of the whining about our style of play, if it wasn’t for the fact that we’re missing our entire back four!

The defence is the bedrock, the foundation of any team, especially one that, as ETH wants, plays out from the back. The foundation they build gives the midfield more licence and the attackers more freedom to do what they’re best at.

ANY OTHER TEAM missing their entire first choice back four (and especially only having one fit FB) would struggle to play the style of football that ETH wants.

Now I’m not expecting the proverbial switch to flick ‘on’ when Shaw, Martinez, Varane and AWB are back, but that’s a back four that gives you a lot more of a chance to build up play with a solid foundation.

That's all true but even when the team didn't have sustained injuries was there any scintillating displays from the first 11 ? I don't think the defence returning is going to drastically change the teams performances.

 

[Dec9003]

I don’t need to explain anything.

You need to pay more attention before making silly, sweeping, misinformed comments.

You definitely don’t need to explain anything, especially the things you can’t explain.
Could you maybe answer this for me, do you think the style that Ten Hag is trying to implement is working and ultimately worth working toward. Also, do you think the players he has signed gets us closer to that style?
I’m not sure what sweeping statements I’ve made, I just don’t think we’re well managed and I don’t think players coming back from injuries will make enough of a difference.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

The SAF comparisons have started.

Honestly @Skills is right. Our fanbase has a weird ****-like feeling when it comes to supporting managers. I've never seen anything like it.

 

[OrcaFat]

This is exactly the kind of attitude that has led the club to be in the position it’s in now. You fans who happily accept mediocrity.

You say the players will eventually accept “the managers vision”, but what exactly is this? There is seemingly no game plan. And this isn’t something new, it’s been the cast for nearly 12 months now.

Nearly 12 months, wow, as long as that?

Unfortunately (for some), it will take several years.

Or he will be sacked and we can do this dance all over again with next guy (and it really does not matter who it is).

 

[TheReligion]

You definitely don’t need to explain anything, especially the things you can’t explain.
Could you maybe answer this for me, do you think the style that Ten Hag is trying to implement is working and ultimately worth working toward. Also, do you think the players he has signed gets us closer to that style?
I’m not sure what sweeping statements I’ve made, I just don’t think we’re well managed and I don’t think players coming back from injuries will make enough of a difference.

You are correct. I don’t need or have to explain anything to you. Glad you understand that.

The fact that you are also unsure of what you’ve actually said is troubling.

Feels like too much hard work.

 

[izec]

He is shite, needs to be put out of his misery.

 

[CallyRed]

Brailsford won't get rid of a fellow baldie

 

[Baxquux]

I don’t need to explain anything.

You need to pay more attention before making silly, sweeping, misinformed comments.

They (and other posters) aren't saying the absence is irrelevant, just that ETH should be finding alternative personnel to do that same job or tweak it slightly; just because Shaw isn't there to tuck in and provide extra CM cover ala Lahm/ Pep FB, or Martinez stepping up and breaking the first line of press, doesn't mean you can't coach other players to do that to an extent.

And whether Martinez and Shaw have played or not, the style has been patchy except for a run of games around Winter last season. He obviously does have some kind of plan, but the jury is out on how well he's coaching it and how adaptable he is. There are numerous occasions when we do manage to make it through the first line by hook or crook and even approach the final third but then, aside from Hojlund making a good run, there's no clear strategy, no evidence of combinations. The full-back , say Dalot, is up there supporting, it's just (say, compared to Newcastle if you saw the highlights of their game today, or them play against PSG), the movement or ability to find runners and then give the receiving player a passing option in return/overlap isn't there...

 

[Redstain]

"Let's keep an awful manager in job because once in our entire life time do a manager succeeded after 5 years and went on to become the best manager in history"

Unbelievable argument yet keeps getting repeated whenever any of our manager is doing an awful job.

Just give Ten Hag or Ole 5 years and they will turn into the best manager in football history.

Exactly this rhetoric is the type of logic you'll expect from a child. United seems to be the only club where the manager is capable of changing the club's entire fortunes. How about the club brings in a manager and says make do with the players that you have and add to the squad as the team performances improve incrementally. This time argument is senseless as a manager must earn the credibility to stay over the long term otherwise we could say that if Palace kept Frank De Boer they'd be a top four team by now, it's a ridiculous sentiment.

 

[Amira]

How anyone can attempt to defend the first half performance today is beyond me. The second half was better but honestly, it would take some doing to be worse than we were in the first half.

The only positive is the points which I'll gladly take.

 

[Dec9003]

You are correct. I don’t need or have to explain anything to you. Glad you understand that.

The fact that you are also unsure of what you’ve actually said is troubling.

Feels like too much hard work.

Fair play mate, it seems like you might have been projecting when you said I don’t have a clue.

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Nearly 12 months, wow, as long as that?

Unfortunately (for some), it will take several years.

Or he will be sacked and we can do this dance all over again with next guy (and it really does not matter who it is).

Funny how you can’t explain what the game plan is either eh. But yeah, let’s do 7 years.

 

[Livewire1974]

He is shite, needs to be put out of his misery.

Many would say the same about you, idiot.

 

[Baxquux]

Exactly this rhetoric is the type of logic you'll expect from a child. United seems to be the only club where the manager is capable of changing the club's entire fortunes. How about the club brings in a manager and says make do with the players that you have and add to the squad as the team performances improve incrementally. This time argument is senseless as a manager must earn the credibility to stay over the long term otherwise we could say that if Palace kept Frank De Boer they'd be a top four team by now, it's a ridiculous sentiment.

Should have given Moyes the whole 6 years of his contract, right? After all, it took SAF at least that long to win his first title...

 

[TheReligion]

They (and other posters) aren't saying the absence is irrelevant, just that ETH should be finding alternative personnel to do that same job or tweak it slightly; just because Shaw isn't there to tuck in and provide extra CM cover ala Lahm/ Pep FB, or Martinez stepping up and breaking the first line of press, doesn't mean you can't coach other players to do that to an extent.

And whether Martinez and Shaw have played or not, the style has been patchy except for a run of games around Winter last season. He obviously does have some kind of plan, but the jury is out on how well he's coaching it and how adaptable he is. There are numerous occasions when we do manage to make it through the first line by hook or crook and even approach the final third but then, aside from Hojlund making a good run, there's no clear strategy, no evidence of combinations. The full-back , say Dalot, is up there supporting, it's just (say, compared to Newcastle if you saw the highlights of their game today, or them play against PSG), the movement or ability to find runners and then give the receiving player a passing option in return/overlap isn't there...

You mean winter when Martinez was missing post WC? And then with injury against Sevilla? Eriksen too?

Do you expect EtH to coach Lindelof, Maguire in to Martinez? Why do you think Shaw played as LCB last season when Martinez was missing?

We don’t even have a left back fit at the club currently.