If you can't see a difference between Lukaku & Haaland then that is your issue.
Erling Haaland | Dortmund player
- Thread starter Samid
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If you can't see the logic then it's your issue, it's always about comparing pure 9 numbers with winger.
First, you didn't answer my question. How do you assess players if you don't watch highlights? I mean, you're happily discussing players from other leagues and teams in here, so I guess you spend much time watching international football. Let's discuss this one first before we jump into another topic regarding statistics against top teams.
Nice numbers by the way, especially the England statistics, based on an impressive sample size of 568 minutes. In those 568 minutes Sancho as by the way contributed to 6 goals, translating to a goal contribution every 94 minutes. Rashford is at 115 by the way - which is still very good but not Sancho level. Which kind of sums up Rashford in general.
It is a known fact? That's funny because La Liga is by far the best league in the world in last 10-20 years. And many players who set the EPL on fire failed to do the same in La Liga. So I guess we should speak about "La Liga proven" in the future when Madrid or Barca want to sign a EPL player again.
And for every Mkhitaryan, I can give you a de Bruyne, Sané or Gündogan. Even fecking Matip is doing fine in the EPL.
Yeah, but Haaland's numbers are special for a striker as well while Rashford's numbers have been bested by many other winger talents in the meantime.
And completely ignoring McTominay stats, as usual. So is he in different stratosphere technically compared to players like KdB, Silva as he completes more dribbles per 90 mins. I means it's stats and numbers don't lie.
I don't come up with nonsense like "no one outside of Manchester thinks he is top 10 player" or don't come up with "I watched highlights and then try to make a detailed post on who is involved how much in the game"
So? Hazard numbers are bested by many wingers too.
You are still avoiding the question. Why do you expect me to answer to your argument when you didn't even answered mine in the first place?
Jesus
You are the master of whataboutism, right? Mental gymnastics at it's finest.So you don't want the logic to be consistent, not surprising.Jesus
Btw it's rich you talking about mental gymnastics
Rashford is sensational and is a big game destroyer. In every way he is a modern wide forward.
Ita a terrible discussion because one side has to overly criticise the other to get their point across.
As far as Sancho goes, what has he actually proved? It may hurt German fans but, apart fron Bayern, what big games does he even play in?
Thats why its so hard to judge Dortmund players, you dont have much footage of big performances v big sides. Maybe it stands to reason why Mkhitaryan (already forgoten how to spell his name) struggled at United but was an EL destroyer as well.
Good at punching down.
Theres a massive question mark about Dortmund players for a reason
Ita a terrible discussion because one side has to overly criticise the other to get their point across.
As far as Sancho goes, what has he actually proved? It may hurt German fans but, apart fron Bayern, what big games does he even play in?
Thats why its so hard to judge Dortmund players, you dont have much footage of big performances v big sides. Maybe it stands to reason why Mkhitaryan (already forgoten how to spell his name) struggled at United but was an EL destroyer as well.
Good at punching down.
Theres a massive question mark about Dortmund players for a reason
I think our fans don't know what under their noses tbh, we have some fantastic players.
You watched games this season right?
Exactly but it's not surprising. It's like those twitter accounts or TV pundits who makes comments for attention.
I honestly think, United should buy only PL proven players from now on. That would make sure that United rises back to the top and also make the football world a better place. (I might believe only one of those two).
Maguire, Wan-Bissaka, James, Lukaku, Sanchez, Matic, Schneiderlin, Shaw, Mata, Fellaini is an impressive list of PL proven players that you've signed since Ferguson's retirement. It's truely frightening what a team you can build from the highest standard in the world.
That's interesting. So you don't watch many games outside of United and thus don't have opinions on players you haven't watched full games of? I make sure to remember you of that.
Regarding the McTominay stats: It says that he dribbles more than de Bruyne, Silva and co., not that he is better at it. And that's exactly what I said: Sancho participates more in the build up of attacks and still has better output. I say he's a way better dribbler because I watched both players play - and Sancho's technique, ball control, anticipation is on a different level. Again: Rashford is good in that regard, too, but not to the same extent as Sancho.
Maybe you should read properly. I talk about players (in detail) whom I watched enough, instead of watching highlights and then pass judgement on who is better at different aspects of the game. This isn't even the first time, you previously said you don't watch ManUtd play but somehow tries to come up with expert analysis.
Regarding stats, So Sancho completes 1 dribble more every 2 games, same with chances created but somehow it's a different stratosphere.
Sancho also loses ball more than Rashford. 2.3 unsuccessful touches per 90 mins vs 2.1
So when it comes to Mctominay it says he dribbles more but when it comes to Sancho it says he is better dribbler because stats dont lie. Not just better but different stratosphere
You don't have make these ridiculous exaggeration to make a point.
Yea and i still dont think he put it all together over the whole season.
It seems so long ago but he didnt start clicking until martial came back in from what i remember.
Ödegaard was arguing "Haaland has produced way better numbers", you countered with "Haaland is a striker, Rashford is a winger", then I pointed out that "Haaland has almost unprecedented statistics for a striker while there are many wingers who best Rashford" and answered "but there are also wingers with better statistics than Hazard" - that's as inconsistent arguing as it gets. Almost childish, really.So you don't want the logic to be consistent, not surprising.
Btw it's rich you talking about mental gymnastics
See, this "big game thing" is very popular around here and also used frequently in Ronaldo vs Messi debates or something similar, but honestly, I' never get that. Football isn't suddenly different when you play against a better team. For me, there really is no question mark about Dortmund players. Maybe it is because of United's experiences with Kagawa and Mkhitaryan, I don't know, but I believe you guys expected way too much when you signed those players and now overcompensate. I don't think many Bundesliga fans expected Mkhitaryan to set the PL alight since he was mentally extremely weak and had just played his first good season at Dortmund. Kagawa was a different story, he was great for Dortmund but still: He was a player the club signed for 250.000€ a few years ago. He was a tidy player that worked very well in Klopp's system but nobody really thought he was world class.
Those two sentences in quick succession are a bit ironic. How about the team that comfortably outplayed Spurs over two legs?
Thats over half of the EPL this season. They lost to Norwich twice this year.
Strange rant, but thanks.
Because you missed the posts in between when I said you can't compare wingers and 9s and by doing so we can prove Lukaku is better than Hazard. Not my problem if you skip posts in between. The post you quoted was even about that.
That's the context, again not even surprising.Jesus
He was in my opinion taking the steps towards being one of the best players in the league performing consistently.
Yeah, I understood that. As I said, I'll remember you of that.
I said Sancho has a better passing accuracy, more dribbles and more key passes than Rashford, he also has more assists and more goals than him --> he has more end product and participates more. Those are facts, he does participate more, unless Rashford found a way of participating without dribbling or passing the ball.Regarding stats, So Sancho completes 1 dribble more every 2 games, same with chances created but somehow it's a different stratosphere.
Sancho also loses ball more than Rashford. 2.3 unsuccessful touches per 90 mins vs 2.1
So when it comes to Mctominay it says he dribbles more but when it comes to Sancho it says he is better dribbler because stats dont lie. Not just better but different stratosphere
You don't have make these ridiculous exaggeration to make a point.
My eyes tell me he is technically far superior: Better close control, better skill set, better passing skills and so forth --> he's in a different stratosphere. This is not a fact but an opinion. Honestly, what's not to understand about that?
In the same sense: McTominay apparently dribbles more than de Bruyne and Silva (nice stat by the way, was really surprised by that). This factually means exactly that: He dribbles more. But my eyes tell me he has worse ball control etc. so he's a worse dribbler. A worse dribbler can still dribble more than a superior one. That's an opinion. Got it?
My big game point was Rashford has shown he can bypass tactics by top sides, designed by top managers, and still dominate games. He terrorised a Pep side away from home last year, there wasn't anything Pep could do.
We said the same for Lukaku when we signed him, oh look his flat track bullying will make up for big game bottles but its the big games that set the top 6 apart from each other since the top sides beat lesset sides anyway.
Its a bad example but Rashford had a quiet game away to PSG last year and still came away with a goal and an assist. Dortmund went out.
I literally pointed that out in the quote you just gave. So no, that's still inconsistent arguing/whataboutism on your part.
I would argue he's shown a lot more than glimpses this season, and is starting to come very close to putting it together.
I don't think there's a lot in it between Sancho and Rashford. You could argue that Sancho is probably better because he's shown more at a younger age, (he's certainly got a wider skillset) but I'd also make a strong argument that Rashford's growth was stunted by Jose for two years playing as a defensive winger. Sancho has much more freedom to express himself at Dortmund.
Guess the only way to know for sure is if they were to play for the same club as a control. For... academic purposes
That's not whataboutism, that's call consistent logic. And no, you didn't even know the context, from the first post in reply to Odegaard I said if we compare wingers and 9s on numbers then we can prove Lukaku > Hazard and I replied the same point to you too when you came up with same logic.
"Rashford has shown he can bypass tactics by top sides, designed by top managers, and still dominate games" - no offense, but that's way to vague for my liking. That's something you can't even put your finger on, there's no substance behind that argument. What has he done to do so? Why shouldn't Sancho be able to do that?
I mean, do you think Sancho's way of dribbling only works against weaker defenders? Do you think he only spots passes when there's huge space for them? Or that he only scores against weak keepers? What is it that makes you think he can't do it against top sides?
Nice try, you came up with up with ridiculous exaggeration saying technically in different stratosphere, way better dribbler and then posted stats to prove your point when same stats also show McTominay as better dribbler than KdB, Silva and other players .
Also completing 1 dribble more in every 2 game, creating 1 more chance in every 2 games from open play while having more unsuccessful touches doesn't make Sancho way better dribbler.
Sancho is better dribbler than Rashford but that's not the point, it's the ridiculous exaggeration, screaming for attention. It's like those twitter accounts and poor pundits looking for attention.
Yeah, that's what I summed up with "Haaland is a striker, Rashford is a winger". That point was effectively disproved by the "Haaland has special statistics for a striker, too, while Rashford has average statistics even for a winger"-part. And because you didn't want to admit that, you tried to change the topic to the argument that a winger doesn't define himself through scoring stats. Which is correct, by the way, but wasn't the point we were discussing. You only brought it up because you tried to distract from the fact that your previous argument was pretty hollow.
I said that he is a way better dribbler and participates more. Than you highlighted the part with "participates more" in your quote and posted a laughing smile. Then I posted statistics that prove that he participates more.
Jesus, this is getting tiring. Have fun in your filter bubble, mate. Maybe try being less close minded in the future, you could actually enjoy watching football outside Manchester and broadening your horizon a bit.
Rashford currently is better than Sancho and Haaland but they are both better than a 19 year old Rashford.
Comparing winger numbers with pure 9 is a shit logic. That's why I said Lukaku is better than Hazard going by that post.
There are so many pure 9s who can be compared, not a winger and a 9.
And the bold part sums up your posts. Comparing winger and 9 numbers isn't correct but let's do it anyway for the lols.
fecking hell, do you know what irony means?
If you are left alone you might end up hurting yourself as what you do and preach is exact opposite.
I posted laughing smiley as you admitted you watched highlights and made that post. That's just ridiculous.
See, output is a very important dimension in player performances and often the one thing great talents are lacking. How do you compare the output of attacking players in different positions? You compare their respective outputs with the average outputs for their positions. And that's what Ödegaard did. Haaland and Sancho blow Rashford out of the water in that sense. No amount of mental gymnastics will change that. You can argue that Rashford provides more outside of goals and assists but come on, compared to Sancho who's already among the best dribblers and passers in world football?
Irony is exemplarily when a United fan on a United forum who defends United players to the blood against pretty much any criticism from "foreign fans" suggests a foreign fan who reads and posts in a United forum to get out of his filter bubble is the close minded one. Thing is, I'm interested in football, you're interested in United, and that shows in our arguments.
Settle down, please! Surely there are better ways to iron out the differences of opinion?
@Zehner @roonster09
@Zehner @roonster09
If I try hard enough I can find your posts on Hazard saying numbers are not enough to judge players or something close to that.
So Sancho completes 1 dribble more in every 2 games and he is way better dribbler. This is the exaggerated posts I'm talking about, screaming for attention.