Mid table options are better than bottom of the table options, which is where we are and what we were replacing.
Plus we're only paying that much if he triggers all of the addons, if he's as bad as you make out it'll be less than €30m.
ESPN: Amorim prioritising, Pace, Power and Atheticism this summer
- Thread starter dinostar77
- Start date
Mid table options are better than bottom of the table options, which is where we are and what we were replacing.
Plus we're only paying that much if he triggers all of the addons, if he's as bad as you make out it'll be less than €30m.
Clubs that spend 35m EUR on full backs or wingbacks tend to do much better.
By the way, I didn't say Dorgu is a midtable quality player. I don't think he's better than Mitchell or Kerkez or Ait Nouri or Robinson.
We aren't aspiring to be midtable next season, so we shouldn't be recruiting quality that struggles to be that level. Heck Dorgu barely ever played as a LWB before we bought him.
10 skilled midgets will always win over 10 lumberjacks.
We are low in league and playing shit football exactly because our squad is filled with "strong" players who can't even control the ball.
I am shocked that while other teams are buying players with skill for years now, we are going for physicality.
Wouldn't want a squad with that profile, but honestly a Traore at WB off the bench could have worked against Tottenham. Anything to disrupt an organized defensive line and clear space for players ( Doku being a more refined, less hench version of this for City) in those low-block scenarios United still face (despite mediocrity of attacking threat), whilst also disrupting any counter-attacks.
That's an awful analysis of our squad. We're where we are because our players aren't up to the physicality of the league, they're often bullied, outpaced, and outrun.
You keep going on about lumberjacks and technicians, but the world isn't black and white. The best players around are all physical monsters, who are also technically excellent. Going all in on one or the other is a terrible idea. We need players who can do both.
Its lost on you probably that whenever Rodri is out City suddenly they have issues with the midfield and start getting bullied in there and as soon as Arsenal added Rice and got Partey back from injury they instantly improved as a whole.
The PL has moved the needle in the last 5 years in physicality especially in midfield. That does not mean you don’t need the technical side too. Its partly why Arsenal had a bit of a cheat code this season with set pieces because they have built such a powerful side
Also who are these so called strong players we have? We are weak as fecking piss. Not to mention slow as feck
I don’t disagree with you; I just know we’re going to shoot for the stars and hit the donkey stables for players who can’t play football but can run through brick walls.You do have a point. But the way I see things in the PL is the pace, power and athleticism is the baseline. It’s such a physical and fast league so you need players who can be comfortable with the level of intensity. Your team needs to win the physical battle or at least not lose it, then your technical qualities can be the difference maker.
The biggest problem we’ve had post Fergie is signing technical players with little athleticism and physical players with poor ball skills. Once we find a better balance of that the number of flops we sign will reduce. Even the summer just gone we signed Zirkzee and Ugarte, one can’t run in behind and the other is a hazard taking the ball under pressure near our box.
These physical qualities can help teams in dominating some of the important margins.
It’s no surprise our best league finishes have come when we’ve had teams more geared towards PL football. These teams had this baseline but lacked that extra bit of technical refinery to take us to the next level.
2017/18 - DDG, Valencia Smalling Jones Young, Matic Fellaini Pogba, Rashford Lukaku Lingard.
20/21 - DDG, AWB Maguire Lindelof Shaw, Fred Mctominay Bruno, Greenwood Rashford Martial
I look at our current team and how many of them are dominant in the air like the Jose team. None of our current fullbacks can save our bacon like AWB did repeatedly with last ditch tackles. The dynamism in our attack is also nonexistent, we don’t have any player that can run with the ball while shrugging off players, Amad and Garnacho are so lightweight once you get a hand on them they get dispossessed or fouled.
We get bullied all over the pitch by strength and pace. Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle have a good mix of physicality and technical skills and that what we need to get closer to.
We may call it: The Heskeyian era. I believe Liverpool did it before us. It will be glorious. Unprecedented levels of donkeyism. The league shall be awestruck.
Who should we have signed for wingback with that money in January instead? All the players you mentioned would walk into our team, they'd all cost a lot more too.
That's a ....take. Not one that 90% of analysts would agree with,p[erhaps, when it comes to our squad, particularly when it comes to CB , midfield or indeed the 10 positions. Hojlund maybe, Dalot up to a point, Dorgu at a pinch. But in terms of strength And pace...those are pretty rare in the squad. Even Ugarte isn't That physically dominant, nor does he have the kind of short-burst pace that reliably wins duels against the PL's real monsters. Maguire is slowish, although a decent ball carrier.
All my named players joined their club on a lot less which is proof that good scouting gets good value.
To answer your question I wouldn't panic buy whatsoever. I had wanted to see Garnacho tested at LWB and/or I wouldn't loan out Malacia. I'd then enter the window with a more researched transfer, or a common sense move such as Fernandez and a Mitchell on a free signing for squad cover.
Edit - the above move has 15m euros left over.
As long as we're prioritizing players with athleticism who don't shit their pants when the ball comes near.
Mitchell on a free would be such a good deal. Really like him
Everything. You are implying its only the Mourinho way that comes with power and athleticism in midfield. The idea technique can't accompany power and athleticism is greatly unfounded.
You lost me. You want to say that Rice and Rodri don't have technique?
Of course that it is ideal that player has both. But those players are rare. So, prospect in seeing a team filled with Dorgus, Hojlunds and Ugartes is terrifying.
We need a midfield as mobile and fit as what Barcelona and PSG have. And for the epl they would need added power. Its literally a no brainer. One just has to see Gravenberch and Mac Calister in full flow to instantly get what we sorely lack to make Amorim's football. let alone mere epl success viable.
Where the feck did I say that. I want to say that Rice and Rodri are not techno midgets or do you think Kovacic, Bernado and Nunes have no technique or Jorginho has no technique.
Players who have both are not rare nearly all teams in the PL have one in midfield
Casemiro now that his physical attributes are gone can’t even use his technique at this level. Or do you think he has no technique?
Rodri also happens to have impeccable technique, this pace and power stuff is bullshit without the technique we'll end up with a bunch of Dorgus
I'll have to disagree, we nere desperate for someone who could play that position. I find the idea that Garnacho could play that position fanciful, given that he can't even play his own position effectively.
We're generally aligned on most topics, but I think you're overly harsh on the Dorgu signing. He may not end up a world beater, but he'll do for now while we add more physicality throughout the rest of the team.
Kovacic also has impeccable technique and so does Bernado Silva whats the difference with Rodri and them? The pace and power stuff is not bullshit and also not even new
No one is saying sign players with no fecking technique
I said it's bullshit without technique like we've seen what good it is to have players that are athletic but have little football skill, out of the 3 I'd take technique as the most important thing.
PSG are dominating the CL and Vitinha, Nerves and Ruiz and they are hardly prime athletes
I didnt say anything about no technique so again what is your point?
Ruiz is a good Athlete and so it Neves for that matter he runs all day and PSG don’t play in the PL week in week out. They got dominated by Arsenal in midfield after the first 20 mins of the first leg.
I cant think of many players in that team which had outstanding pace and power.
Salah had pace
Firminho not really any
Henderson had running power, no speed and not significant strength
The CBs were strong. VVD, Konate etc wouldnt say they had pace
Mostly they had running power/fitness to press which is something we've had with some players just not enough. Ander, Fred, Ugarte, maybe McTominay but we never saw him doing it
If we were desperate for someone to play in that position then it's far more fanciful punting on a less experienced player who had a fair few games at RW for a relegation battling club for 35m eur.
I'm not trying to be too harsh, I said it before he joined that he looked bang average and like a wan bissaka minus the good defending. He's displayed exactly what I expect.
I currently reckon his ceiling may be a peak Dumfries which is good, but he's probably 2 plus seasons from that if at all, and we don't have that luxury for such an integral position.
VVD and Konate don’t have pace?
None had stamina (with the exception of Bruno). That's why when Rangnick came and asked to press they couldn't do it after 20 minutes.
Man I can’t believe people don’t see this still
Neither have what youd call pace and power, they are good athletes but first and foremost they are good on the ball coupled with being good athletes makes them great players, without being good on the ball what good is any of the other stuff and that's my argument
You might want to watch Neves more. Hes is a powerful and physical player all be it a small one. That being said there is a reason Arsenal dominated the midfield against them
The overall point was Rodri loss City lost alot of the physical ability in the midfield (more than they lost technique) and teams started bullying them
Arsenal added steal with Rice as opposed to Jorginho. That doesnt mean Rice doesnt have technique so does Jorginho the difference between the two is obvious
Bournemouth are better because they play as a team. They dont even have lots of athletes themselves. A great example is their midfield which is often Lewis Cook who is short, not very fast and not particularly strong and Christie who used to be an AM, but has gone back into their midfield 2 and uses smart passes and touches to knit play together. He's not that fast or powerful.
Kluivert and Outtara are fast. Kerkez is fast. Outtara has some balance and strength but the others just have speed
Semenyo isnt that fast but hes strong
Evanilson isnt particularly athletic, maybe a bit of speed, mostly just some ability with the ball
Zabarnyi is strong but no speed, Huijson had a good balance of strength and speed but he could be a little bit stronger - he will get there as hes young
They still play Smith at rightback because they've had a problem there for years and hes unathletic
Bournemouth play as a team and their formation suits their players. They have wide players playing wide and doing well feeding the forwards and they have Christie with some smart passing moving the ball in the middle. Its not athleticism
They press like hell they are a team as a whole are far superior to us in terms of their stamina and their ability to maintain that high tempo for 90 minutes. They are relentless
We need technique above all. If you have a team with skilled players you are not bothered how strong and fast opposition team is. Because you have the ball and just spin the ball around them. Barca conquered Europe and City conquered England with team filled with players who were able to have 75 % possession.
PSG is playing best football now. As people said, nobody in their midfield is strong and pacey. But they can do with the ball what they want.
Our goal should be to dominate teams in football, not to fight with team.
VVD definitely had (still has to a great degree) pace in addition to strength,, distribution etc. Henderson had power, very decent acceleration, and didn't get shrugged off the ball (more disciplined and precise in his passing version of McT). Salah wasn't overtly muscular but was tough and obviously had speed. Konate is quick - speed doesn't mean necessarily Kyle Walker or VDV at Tottenham levels. Matip wasn't slow either, certainly compared to Maguire on the turn. Trent was pretty quick over short distances and could just pass/cross his way out of trouble; Robertson, like Salah, wasn't heavily muscled but was lightning quick and difficult to get off the ball (in addition to being willing to whip the ball in fairly early as an attacking FB/ de-facto WB).
Every first-choice forward player except Firminho has been quick and fairly direct in addition to being able to press. The midfield was set-up to press and had at least one, normally two players who could carry the ball in addition to a deep passer who could tackle.
PSG's midfield may not be long sprinters but they have real intensity over short-distances in terms of winning the ball back ( as well as upper body strength/ability to use their frame to shield the ball or win fouls), before they start the carousel. Their forward players and full-backs are also quick and industrious and also backing them up with options And the ability to disrupt any break resulting from a turnover. Enrique has done a hell of a job, even given the talent, with the departure of Mbappe and Messi.
Why are people acting as if physical comes at the expense of technicality?
The best wingers in the world tend to be very fast and very technical. The best midfielders today are very athletic - not necessarily rapid, but athletic. How many good centre backs today are slow?
Fullbacks basically have to have the greatest engines in the team; a wingback needs an even greater engine.
Strikers are a mixed bag. Kane, Firminho, Lewandowski aren’t great in terms of speed but have decent strength.
So yeah, we need to reslly up the game in terms of physicality. Eriksen is a great technical player, but he lacks pace, strength and mobility.
Mainoo clearly lacks acceleration, top speed and stamina. Maguire with pace would be a great player.
We have very, very few players with great athleticism. Amad for his size, Garnacho is ok, no more. Dorgu is ok. Yoro and Heaven and Dalot are very athletic. Højlubd is supposed to be. That’s about it.
The best wingers in the world tend to be very fast and very technical. The best midfielders today are very athletic - not necessarily rapid, but athletic. How many good centre backs today are slow?
Fullbacks basically have to have the greatest engines in the team; a wingback needs an even greater engine.
Strikers are a mixed bag. Kane, Firminho, Lewandowski aren’t great in terms of speed but have decent strength.
So yeah, we need to reslly up the game in terms of physicality. Eriksen is a great technical player, but he lacks pace, strength and mobility.
Mainoo clearly lacks acceleration, top speed and stamina. Maguire with pace would be a great player.
We have very, very few players with great athleticism. Amad for his size, Garnacho is ok, no more. Dorgu is ok. Yoro and Heaven and Dalot are very athletic. Højlubd is supposed to be. That’s about it.
Garnacho can't play that position though, he's lacking all the physical tools Dorgu has, even if those are midtable.
Wan Bissaka didn't have the engine that Dorgu does, he'd happily go forwards but would stroll back. Plus Dorgu's demonstrated better crossing ability in his time here.
Even if we'd waited until summer we'd be looking for younger up and coming players for the money we spent on Dorgu, so by going early we've managed to get a half-year head start on that development.
Didn't Pep Guardiola say earlier this season that his style of football doesn't work in the PL anymore?
The reason we did better in Europe this season was because they haven't caught up yet.
Anyway, Cunha would be a good start for the type of player that Amorim is after.
Mane and Salah very fast. Firmino not fast, but he was a hard worker and surprisingly strong on the ball.
Henderson was very athletic, both quite fast, strong and an amazing engine. Proper fist magnet mind you.
Kanate/Gomez/ were both very fast, Matip decent and prime VVD very fast. Robertson amazing stamina and decent speed. Taa decent.
They ran more than any team, Fergsuon said it was downright unbelievable. They were a very physical team.
Players like Vitinha do it all really. He's superb technically, and while he's not "powerful", he is extremely tenacious, industrious and constantly moving. I love that sort of player. Pace and power are important tools to have, but not every player has to fit that mold. It just has to be a vein that runs through the team, to give it balance. Players like Vitinha, Neves, Modric, Verratti, Barella, who aren't very big but have relentless energy and technical supremacy are the real difference makers. They give you constant passing options, and close down the opposition very quickly. They are all also what I would call "speedy". Might not be the fastest over a 30-40 sprint, but that's fairly irrelevant in 95% of football. They are however some of the quickest players over 5-10 yards, and capable of rapid and sudden changes in direction.
What we have to do is avoid players who are physically unimpressive. Size isn't a predicator of a player's ability to be physically impactful, as we've just discussed; but workrate, acceleration, and the ability to hold off opposing players, as well as close them down, are. You can't have outright slow players, who aren't physically dominant. That's a duo of death. Because they'll just get bullied. Amad for example is pretty quick, and has superb acceleration. His balance, technique and workrate means he's one of the best players we have at receiving under pressure and holding opponents off, as well as one of the best at closing people down and winning possession in the final third. He's also fecking tiny. In contrast, Hojlund is twice his size, and I would wager faster over 30-40 yards - once they get into a full on sprint over distance - yet he is infinitely worse at those parts of the game. So that just bring us back to technique being such a critical factor. In fact, it's the one constant factor you need, coupled with either pace/speed or power. You can have a very technically gifted player but if he's slow and weak, I fear he'll be eaten alive in the PL or only show a fraction of what he's capable.
Cunha is a good example of a player who has technical ability married to pace and power. Mudryk is an example of a player with pace and power, but very limited technical ability. So the pace and power by itself just isn't enough. You could make the same comparison in midfield, between say Valverde and McTominay. Both robust, extremely industrious midfielders, who are strong with and without the ball and decently quick (Valverde is quicker); but only one of them has top class technique, and it elevates him to a much higher level.
In defence I feel that Yoro and De Ligt are two pieces of a three piece puzzle. Maguire is a capable understudy, but we are badly lacking in that third spot. Martinez is aggressive but actually very poor at physical duels when people go at him. He's great at stepping up and intercepting, but when people try to go past him with pace, he's always found wanting, because he's quite small and he's really slow. His technique in progressing play is what makes him potentially useful, but you always feel like he has a major deficiency. He'd be an exceptional player if he either had (a) that old school Italian defensive nouse that makes him nearly impossible to dribble by, it's a mental attribute much more than a physical one, based on timing, positioning, and reading of the game, or (b) he had one outstanding physical attribute, either good recovery pace, or exceptional physical strength. That would be enough to balance him out as a player. As he doesn't have any three of those qualities, he'll always be a question mark in our back line. If you are completing this team to optimal levels, you would bring in a left footed centre back who is fairly tall, physically robust, decently quick, and can pick a pass. It would be a marquee signing, and it would balance the whole back line out.
I am very much of the opinion that we get players who are the right fit for each position, as opposed to getting the best players we can and attempting to fit them in. This is why I would be sad but also generally understanding of a decision to cash in on Bruno if we get a massive offer from SA. Yes, you'd miss his talismanic presence, but I think it's fair to say that as a CM he has certain deficiencies that make him a less than ideal fit - although I think he can do a very good job there - and our system needs (as Amorim would say) 10's who can play like midfielders but run like wingers. Bruno is a goal threat, both in scoring and creation, and if we played two wide players and a striker, or two strikers, I think he's superb at sitting in that hole and running around wherever he wants....arriving late etc. But our 10's need to run into channels, they need to be able to go past people e.g. run like wingers, but also be able to come deep link up play, connect with the midfield. Bruno can realistically only do half that job.
As a rule of thumb, I think it's a bad idea to sell high potential players at just 20 years old. It's just to be expected that they will have deficiencies. They aren't finished players. They need to be given time. However, if we take the case of Garnacho - for example - here is a player that has tons of pace and acceleration, but is technically inconsistent, very weak, and whose decision making is still very naive and raw. The impacts of that on the team are obvious, because when he plays, the burden of responsibility on him to make goal contributions is quite high, and he's just got too many areas of his game that needs development for him to reliably do that just yet. I think he has a lot of the tools to get there (if he has the determination and work ethic to make it a reality), but he's in all likelihood at least a couple years away from starting to become a more finished player. Ideally.....because he isn't some generational, freak talent like Rooney or Yamal, you'd have his minutes managed and he'd be a player who was in the second line of rotation so he can develop properly without such a burden of responsibility. It has always been how we have successfully developed young players. The likes of Scholes, Beckham, Neville etc., didn't become nailed on starters until they were nearly two years older than Garnacho is now (and he's been doing it for a couple of years already). The problem is that Garnacho is apparently throwing his toys out of the pram that he didn't start the final, and about what his role was. For a player who is 20, in a team that's woefully underperformed, and who has seasoned, older, international quality players ahead of him, that's just unacceptable. So if we were to cash in, for 60m plus add-ons, I would happily make an exception and do so.
Mainoo on the flip side is a player who has sat on the bench most of this season - despite having an incredible season last season - and not uttered a word of complaint. Amorim has said that he has had his struggles adapting to the defensive responsibilities of the newly defined CM role, but that he's also been working hard to develop. We've consequently managed his minutes and rotated him in and out. For a player who just turned 20, that's how you do it. He's a player I am desperate to keep a hold of, because I think in two years he will be a special talent.
If we go for players who fit their roles well, then we have some of the pieces in place already, but we also have some massive deficiencies. We can all debate the order of importance, but regardless of the order it comes in, just to get to having a top quality starting XI, the following positions need to be addressed in the following ways (I would also say that all these players need to be battle tested and approaching or in the peak age window (23-26/7)
GK - A commanding, consistent, capable keeper.
LCB - A left footed, tall, strong, fairly quick and decent passing centre-back.
RWB - A fast, industrious, technically gifted winger who isn't afraid of assuming defensive responsibilities and has stamina.
CM - An industrious and technically gifted midfielder who is equally adept at winning the ball as he is using the ball.
Left 10 - A fast, powerful and technical right footed inside left forward.
CF - A quick technically gifted centre-forward who is a clinical finisher and has a proven track record at the highest level. Must be a good presser/industrious.
That's six top level players to fill all the critical holes immediately. With the remaining squad you could then assemble a very good team with a good balance of ages, experience, and current/potential performance levels.
Please, I think you're painting a completely different picture of Dorgu. He's been almost always flat footed and not as proactive as he needs to be. He gets bullied when he's too ponderous and is very awkward with his dribbling.
Garnacho most certainly does have the physical tools barring height. He's actually a strong player and works very hard, he can dribble better and is just as quick. He suits the left flank and would most certainly be a better attacking threat.
As I said if we waited for the summer we'd have better options. I named them. Heck one of them is free.
Totally disagree regarding Garnacho, his dribbling is no better (they're both poor tbf), is much more easily brushed off the ball, and they work similarly hard. He provides no attacking threat whatsoever, at least Dorgu looks for teammates and puts in some decent crosses now and again.
If we waited until the summer our season could have been over much sooner, given that we've had to rely on Garnacho as one of the 10s, that would have left Amass as our only LWB option, and he's nowhere near ready. On top of that, the better options you name would all be more expensive, and Mitchell going on a free will have a lot of competition. It's nowhere near as simple as you make out, given our financial situation and other clubs sniffing around.
As an aside, we're doing this in the wrong thread, we should move it to the Dorgu thread if possible.