Ethics of employment

sammsky1

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Would you work at a global tobacco company like Philip Morris?
Or at a global alcohol firm like Diageo?
How about a firm which makes missiles and war planes?
What about McDonalds/Burger King?

What happens if any of these firms approach you tomorrow and offer to double your salary and give you a shiny new car and amazing perks? What would you do and how would you justify any ethical issues you might have?

Am looking for personal responses and thinking as opposed to ideological stances.
 
sammsky1 said:
Would you work at a global tobacco company like Philip Morris?
Or at a global alcohol firm like Diageo?
How about a firm which makes missiles and war planes?
What about McDonalds/Burger King?

What happens if any of these firms approach you tomorrow and offer to double your salary and give you a shiny new car and amazing perks? What would you do and how would you justify any ethical issues you might have?

Am looking for personal responses and thinking as opposed to ideological stances.
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Philip Morris and Arms depending on the specifics are the complicated ones for me, but I'd probably still do it at the end of the day. None of these options would likely be very fulfilling work, and I might take less pay to do something I'd be glad to be involved with. There's a balancing point somewhere in the % pay cut, but 50% is not it for me. Unless we're talking silly amounts in either case.

The justification is that the people on the buying end of the product know what they're getting into. Of course that doesn't count if the company engages in deceiving its consumers, which is unfortunately often the case.
 
MarceloFalcon said:
Philip Morris and Arms depending on the specifics are the complicated ones for me, but I'd probably still do it at the end of the day. None of these options would likely be very fulfilling work, and I might take less pay to do something I'd be glad to be involved with. There's a balancing point somewhere in the % pay cut, but 50% is not it for me. Unless we're talking silly amounts in either case.

The justification is that the people on the buying end of the product know what they're getting into. Of course that doesn't count if the company engages in deceiving its consumers, which is unfortunately often the case.
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launching e-cigs for Phillip Morris around the world? isn't it still problematic because its still a tobacco firm and most of your colleagues are paid for that.

BTW, Im interested to know do you distinguish between booze firms and fag firms?
 
sammsky1 said:
launching e-cigs for Phillip Morris around the world? isn't it still problematic because its still a tobacco firm and most of your colleagues are paid for that.

BTW, Im interested to know do you distinguish between booze firms and fag firms?
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Are these e-cigs safe? I was thinking additionally that what exactly one does in the firm matters too. I wouldn't feel too bad to be in charge of crop safety for example (if such a role exists at these companies, I don't know the details of how they source). If people are gonna smoke, might as well make sure the smoke is near-term healthy (and long-term deadly).

As far as booze, maybe its because I'm quite a fan of the stuff myself. I'm aware that its a drug like most others that're forbidden, and that it also has the potential to be devastating to some people's lives. But I still think that manufacturing and selling decent booze is a fair way to earn a living.
 
I drink most weeks and eat McDonalds once in a while and have no problems with it, so I don't think I could refuse to work for one of those companies on ethical grounds. I'd refuse for a bunch of other reasons, but that is besides the point I guess. Even 10x what I make now wouldn't make any difference.

For Philip Morris or anything related to weapons there is no way I could do it. It might be a bit hypocritical for me to distinguish between alcohol and tobacco given they both cause people serious problems, but then, lots of things cause people problems, you have to draw the line somewhere. Philip Morris are absolute scumbags.
 
Tarrou said:
I drink most weeks and eat McDonalds once in a while and have no problems with it, so I don't think I could refuse to work for one of those companies on ethical grounds. I'd refuse for a bunch of other reasons, but that is besides the point I guess. Even 10x what I make now wouldn't make any difference.

For Philip Morris or anything related to weapons there is no way I could do it. It might be a bit hypocritical for me to distinguish between alcohol and tobacco given they both cause people serious problems, but then, lots of things cause people problems, you have to draw the line somewhere. Philip Morris are absolute scumbags.
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What are those others reasons? Am very interested.

Why are PM scumbags? Just them or also British American Tobacco too?
 
Tobacco firm probably not.

Alcohol sure why not, I'd gladly work for say SABMiller. I've also previously applied to Nestle who have a pretty sketchy history.
 
sammsky1 said:
What are those others reasons? Am very interested.

Why are PM scumbags? Just them or also British American Tobacco too?
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They sue countries over tobaccos legislation such as plain packaging laws, using intimidation tactics to try and block legislation designed to save people's lives.

Not sure if the other firms do the same thing. I just remember the press about the higher profile PM cases such as vs Australia and Uruguay.

Edit: Just saw the question you added. The main reason is none of those things particularly interest me, but to tell the truth I'd find it hard to work for anyone after being self-employed for a while. If you work for a big firm on a big wage, they have a way of getting their moneys worth out of you. Always pushing the limits and adding to your workload. I used to work long hours and got stressed all the time, but probably some people can handle it much better than me. I'm not massively motivated by money, I'd rather have a lot less for just a little more time with my family.
 
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Philip Morris did two really sketchy things at a minimum. They hid the addictive and harmful nature of their product from consumers and actively (subliminally) marketed said products to children in order to lock in customers for life.
 
Dwazza said:
Philip Morris did two really sketchy things at a minimum. They hid the addictive and harmful nature of their product from consumers and actively (subliminally) marketed said products to children in order to lock in customers for life.
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do you mean generally when tobacco ads were legal in the 1980s/1990s or are you referring to specific cases?
 
I'd be fine with all of those from a moral standpoint and the rest was as awesome as you say. Ethical issue can be justified by simply not giving a shit and letting people make their own choices (baring in mind I don't know of those tobacco/alcohol companies you mentioned so am answering in general)
 
VeevaVee said:
You're using us for uni work here aren't you?
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I graduated 20 years ago From Manchester University :)

But I am working on a study of Gen Y professional ethical choices, so yes I am using this thread as one source to get a snapshot.

I think it's interesting as the world has changed so much sinvmce when I graduated. Porn stars in the US now demand rights and drug abuse is so much prevalent. Likewise we produce more weaponry than ever before and consumer companies cause all sorts of illnesses.
 
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sammsky1 said:
I graduated 20 years ago From Manchester University :)

But I am working on a study of modern day professional ethical choices with Gen Y so yes, I am using this thread as one source to get a snapshot

I think it's interesting as the world has changed so much sinvmce when I graduated. Porn stars in the US now demand repect and drug abuse is so much prevalent. Likewise the world produces more weaponry than ever before and consumer companies help create all sorts of illnesses.
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Actually, weaponry would be a strange one that I'd have to think about.

If a company was particular harmful to the environment then I'd think about it even more.
 
My cousin wrote software for missile guidance systems around 20 years ago. I asked him once about how he felt (he was a quiet and soft-spoken guy who was a pacifist like me), he told me that he only thought about his specific job and never thought about the end usage.
 
I would personally love to have a posh job working for a big cigar manufacturer or bourbon distillery.

Wouldn't have a problem with an arms manufacturer either. Si vis pacem, para bellum.
 
sammsky1 said:
Would you work at a global tobacco company like Philip Morris?
Or at a global alcohol firm like Diageo?
How about a firm which makes missiles and war planes?
What about McDonalds/Burger King?

What happens if any of these firms approach you tomorrow and offer to double your salary and give you a shiny new car and amazing perks? What would you do and how would you justify any ethical issues you might have?

Am looking for personal responses and thinking as opposed to ideological stances.
Click to expand...

I work as a consultant for a pretty big Hospitality client and I volunteered to track/submit all my company's monthly/yearly invoices to the client. As part of the job, I used to work closely with a client contact at Accounts Payable division. This guy used to work for Phillip Morris Manhattan office for their AP/AR Team. He vouches for their company everyday. They have super awesome PR policies. 4 week paid vacation time and depending on rank, you get a 50% reimbursed trip for a week for 2 members of the family. When they re-located their office, he was given an option to move along with them with all sorts of moving and settling expenses included and when he declined, they gave a 6/9 month settlement to help him look for other jobs. They really 'take care' of their employees. Now I work for a tech company with reasonable reputation, and they treat me well enough, but I'm just another resource.

Conversely, would you work for Nike or Apple, who have repeatedly avoided to look at child labour and manipulative working conditions in all their offshore manufacturing facilities? Or would you have any problem working for Chick-fil-A with their anti gay stance? You look for ethical reasons to work for employers and it's a slippery slope.
 
I'll work anywhere the money and terms are good and that I enjoy the work. At the end of the day I vote for representatives to monitor and regulate businesses, my only obligation is to provide the best quality of life and be a good role model for my family
 
sammsky1 said:
Would you work at a global tobacco company like Philip Morris?
Or at a global alcohol firm like Diageo?
How about a firm which makes missiles and war planes?
What about McDonalds/Burger King?

What happens if any of these firms approach you tomorrow and offer to double your salary and give you a shiny new car and amazing perks? What would you do and how would you justify any ethical issues you might have?

Am looking for personal responses and thinking as opposed to ideological stances.
Click to expand...

I'd work for all of them. Then again I'm just starting out my career so I'm desperate.
 
I wouldn't work for a tobacco company. Probably I would work for a defence company yes
 
sammsky1 said:
Would you work at a global tobacco company like Philip Morris?
Or at a global alcohol firm like Diageo?
How about a firm which makes missiles and war planes?
What about McDonalds/Burger King?

What happens if any of these firms approach you tomorrow and offer to double your salary and give you a shiny new car and amazing perks? What would you do and how would you justify any ethical issues you might have?

Am looking for personal responses and thinking as opposed to ideological stances.
Click to expand...

Generally speaking yes, if I´d enjoy my tasks at these companies. I don´t have any interest in the fast-food, tobacco or alcohol industry so it might be difficult to excite me for these. Working for arms manufacturer could be quite interesting and I´d certainly give it a shot.

I wouldn´t need mental gymnastics to justify it: I do it because it would benefit me. People are motivated by self-interest all the time; they are just lying to themselves to make them look better.
 
rcoobc said:
I wouldn't work for a tobacco company. Probably I would work for a defence company yes
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What do you think of people who do work at tobacco firms? Would you avoid them for friendships.

What if your mate started working for one? Would your opinion of him change?
 
sammsky1 said:
What do you think of people who do work at tobacco firms? Would you avoid them for friendships.

What if your mate started working for one? Would your opinion of him change?
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Depends on the mate. Most of my friends either work for charities or are accountants. If they switched to Tobacco firms from there, I would probably be a bit disappointed in them. If it was a friend who didnt quite have as much going for them, moving to a Tobacco firm is slightly more understandable.
 
Can I at least dig for coal from coal mines knowing that burning coal creates a hole in the Ozone layer?
 
sammsky1 said:
I graduated 20 years ago From Manchester University :)

But I am working on a study of Gen Y professional ethical choices, so yes I am using this thread as one source to get a snapshot.

I think it's interesting as the world has changed so much sinvmce when I graduated. Porn stars in the US now demand rights and drug abuse is so much prevalent. Likewise we produce more weaponry than ever before and consumer companies cause all sorts of illnesses.
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From a professional researchers perspective, what you did by not mentioning that upfront would be considered highly unethical.
 
PedroMendez said:
Generally speaking yes, if I´d enjoy my tasks at these companies. I don´t have any interest in the fast-food, tobacco or alcohol industry so it might be difficult to excite me for these. Working for arms manufacturer could be quite interesting and I´d certainly give it a shot.

I wouldn´t need mental gymnastics to justify it: I do it because it would benefit me. People are motivated by self-interest all the time; they are just lying to themselves to make them look better.
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This.

I was going to say I couldn't give a feck but this is articulated in a much better way.
 
A brother of a friend of mine works for British American Tobacco in their accounts division. The terms and conditions are fantastic, but he says they have to be because they suffer from a huge turnover of staff with people eventually being too uncomfortable working in the industry for long.
 
I signed up for the oil industry before I understood the full implications of it. It started nawing at my heart on a daily basis as my perspective matured.

But if it picks up just a bit, I could quadruple or more my income. And my mother who cannot work has health problems she cannot afford. If I had to choose between being just another brick in the wall and supporting my mom or chasing my ideal outcomes, I'd choose the former.
 
sammsky1 said:
Would you work at a global tobacco company like Philip Morris?
Or at a global alcohol firm like Diageo?
How about a firm which makes missiles and war planes?
What about McDonalds/Burger King?

What happens if any of these firms approach you tomorrow and offer to double your salary and give you a shiny new car and amazing perks? What would you do and how would you justify any ethical issues you might have?

Am looking for personal responses and thinking as opposed to ideological stances.
Click to expand...

I already work within the Alcohol industry (marketing). Diageo are one of my biggest clients.

I do sometimes think my job is basically to help booze companies make shit loads of money by selling more booze. Not exactly Medecins Sans Frontieres.

That said, there's a strict code of practice in terms of alcohol marketing. You are forbidden from encouraging people to drink more of your product. Of course you are allowed to market your product but it's all about stealing share from competitors, rather than telling people to drink a whole bottle of Vodka per occasion so you can sell them another.

I also distinguish Alcohol from Tobacco by the fact that alcohol is at least fun, and mostly used responsibly and socially. Whereas almost every smoker I know has tried or is trying to give up. I'm probably a massive hypocrite but I'd probably struggle to work for the tobacco company.

Missiles/War Planes, probably not. I know someone who does. Very well paid. But his company are making and selling weapons to Saudi Arabia (part of that dodgy GB arms deal with Saudi). Nothing good can come of that. His mates often 'joke' about him being a child-killer.

McDonalds/Burger King. Don't see why not if the job was good enough. Not an industry I'm particularly attracted to.
 
To be honest, I wouldn't really mind if the pay is good. I can't change the world on my own anyway...
 
I recently moved work to a large national charity/not for profit. It helps with the "why the hell am I doing this?" moments.

I dont think i would have problems with alcohol or tobacco. An arms manufacturer would make me a bit squeamish but I'd probably go for it if the money & role was attractive.
 
Kraftwerker said:
I already work within the Alcohol industry (marketing). Diageo are one of my biggest clients.

I do sometimes think my job is basically to help booze companies make shit loads of money by selling more booze. Not exactly Medecins Sans Frontieres.

That said, there's a strict code of practice in terms of alcohol marketing. You are forbidden from encouraging people to drink more of your product. Of course you are allowed to market your product but it's all about stealing share from competitors, rather than telling people to drink a whole bottle of Vodka per occasion so you can sell them another.

I also distinguish Alcohol from Tobacco by the fact that alcohol is at least fun, and mostly used responsibly and socially. Whereas almost every smoker I know has tried or is trying to give up. I'm probably a massive hypocrite but I'd probably struggle to work for the tobacco company.

Missiles/War Planes, probably not. I know someone who does. Very well paid. But his company are making and selling weapons to Saudi Arabia (part of that dodgy GB arms deal with Saudi). Nothing good can come of that. His mates often 'joke' about him being a child-killer.

McDonalds/Burger King. Don't see why not if the job was good enough. Not an industry I'm particularly attracted to.
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One point you are correct about is that alcohol consumed in moderation has no proven negative health effects. The problem is that is very difficult to moderate drinking because its so enjoyable and can be addictive. Binge drinking and the negative effects of drunkenness are more prevalent and damaging to global society than ever before.

I remember seeing a quantitative research report in 2005, a few years after the BRIC nations (Brazil, Russia, India, China) started to enjoy rapid economic growth. As millions of people in BRIC nations emigrated from rural villages to urban cities, they swapped outdoor physical agricultural jobs to indoor sedate office jobs. Very quickly 'stress' became one of the top medical complaints. And that was a key societal trigger for Diageo to invest heavily into those markets as 'after work drinking' is a key occasion to introduce people to alcohol. 10 years later, these countries have their alcoholism rates in their history and the societal problems that go along with that.

Does that conversation get airtime within your day to day interactions with the alcohol industry?
 
GloryHunter07 said:
I recently moved work to a large national charity/not for profit. It helps with the "why the hell am I doing this?" moments.

I dont think i would have problems with alcohol or tobacco. An arms manufacturer would make me a bit squeamish but I'd probably go for it if the money & role was attractive.
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do you find yourself better motivated than when woking in previous industries?
 
It amazes me how many people would work for arms companies but not tobacco companies. I guess blowing childrens legs off is ok, but dont give them a fag afterwards :lol:
 
Rory 7 said:
Would the same folks who wouldn't work for a tobacco company work in a supermarket selling cigarettes I wonder?
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Its an interesting conundrum.

Im from a Muslim family and my late father used to own and manage several restaurants across London that made him very wealthy. He never drank alcohol even once in his life but sold gallons of the stuff by night and profited from it.

He never had an issue with it. His point being he had a family to provide for and wanted the best for them, he was simply providing a service that was lawful in the country he lived in and if he didn't do it, someone else would. My privileged private school education was funded in part by that profit.

There are verses in the Quran which challenged that view, but his response was he was not perfect and he was happy to live with any compromise. The one rule he always implemented was to stop serving people as soon as they exhibited drunkenness or anti social behaviour.
 
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sammsky1 said:
do you find yourself better motivated than when woking in previous industries?
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Yes but that isn't just down to the company, i have a good boss and co-workers. I hated my last company.

Edit: i do think (from my experience) that charities attract a different kind of personality, which can be both positive & negative.
 
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