EU discussion / and other European countries

[Amar__]

It's weird we don't have any European union(and countries around) thread related, or am I missing something?

Anyway, we can discuss Europe related stuff here, I'll start with some new/old news:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...safeguard-black-sea-grain-deal-ft-2023-07-03/

Basically they'll probably include them in SWIFT again sooner or later.

https://amp.dw.com/en/muslims-experience-islamophobia-every-day-in-germany/a-64985144

Nothing new here. With the likes of leaders like Orban in Hungary who are important member of EU too, yet is open racist, not much will improve in the rest of europe either.

https://amp.dw.com/en/recession-in-germany-what-does-that-mean/a-63444401

Germany looks fecked up these days, lots of companies from our region too who were suppliers for big German companies are facing problems with lack of orders.

 

[africanspur]

Mark Rutte: Dutch coalition government collapses in migration row

 

[KirkDuyt]

Mark Rutte: Dutch coalition government collapses in migration row

I really, sincerely, truly, absolutely hope this is the last Mark Rutte lead government we had. He strategically let it collapse on integration to be able to the right leaning electorate by saying, see? I don't want those pesky immigrants either and then try to form a government with a right wing block instead of the more moderate block he's formed now. Truly the embodiment of everything that is wrong with modern politics. They're in it for the power, they couldn't care less about the kind of policy they need to enact to keep it.

 

[maniak]

It's weird we don't have any European union(and countries around) thread related, or am I missing something?

Brexit means brexit!

 

[Cheimoon]

I really, sincerely, truly, absolutely hope this is the last Mark Rutte lead government we had. He strategically let it collapse on integration to be able to the right leaning electorate by saying, see? I don't want those pesky immigrants either and then try to form a government with a right wing block instead of the more moderate block he's formed now. Truly the embodiment of everything that is wrong with modern politics. They're in it for the power, they couldn't care less about the kind of policy they need to enact to keep it.

You're absolutely right. Rutte is seeing the momentum right-wing parties are having, so he's decided he can't be seen making any moves on the immigration or nitrogen files - and so he prefers blowing up the whole thing.

It's been like that since his first government. He has absolutely no actual vision for the country, he's just playing power games. I can't believe people keep voting for him, but as you say, he may have again positioned himself well for this, especially with such a large part of the Dutch electorate voting on the right currently.

And that's my biggest worry here: elections now, and we'll end up with a coalition with the VVD and BBB at its centre. Although like in the provinces, parliament may be so divided that creating a reasonable majority coalition might (once more) be next to impossible. (Time for a whole bunch of those small parties to merge!)

 

[Stanley Road]

I really, sincerely, truly, absolutely hope this is the last Mark Rutte lead government we had. He strategically let it collapse on integration to be able to the right leaning electorate by saying, see? I don't want those pesky immigrants either and then try to form a government with a right wing block instead of the more moderate block he's formed now. Truly the embodiment of everything that is wrong with modern politics. They're in it for the power, they couldn't care less about the kind of policy they need to enact to keep it.

Agree, biggest tosser ever

 

[Cheimoon]

Agree, biggest tosser ever

Well, there's Baudet. But Rutte is definitely up there.

 

[Amar__]

They're in it for the power, they couldn't care less about the kind of policy they need to enact to keep it.

This is so obvious in any country, yet many people stand behind them like they are their brother and sisters who stand for them exclusively. I would seriously question if 80-90% of politicans would know how to do anything other than politics/spending their days doing nothing.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Well, there's Baudet. But Rutte is definitely up there.

Baudet is obviously far worse with his ever growing fascist rhetoric, but he doesn't really count as a politician at this point. Just an attention farming conspiracy nut with hardly any votes. Rutte is supposed to be an actual politician, but he really makes me believe at least a tiny amount of the "partijkartel" stuff some on the right spout. They're in it to keep the current order in place no matter the cost or direction. No newcomers are substantial change to the status quo allowed.

 

[maniak]

Seems like in spain the conservatives might soon form government with fascists. Good times ahead...

 

[Cheimoon]

Baudet is obviously far worse with his ever growing fascist rhetoric, but he doesn't really count as a politician at this point. Just an attention farming conspiracy nut with hardly any votes. Rutte is supposed to be an actual politician, but he really makes me believe at least a tiny amount of the "partijkartel" stuff some on the right spout. They're in it to keep the current order in place no matter the cost or direction. No newcomers are substantial change to the status quo allowed.

Yeah OK, fair enough.

And it's true I cannot remember anyone so vacuous among Dutch leading politicians - although Kok all those years ago did talk about having lost his 'political feathers'. As if that's what you want in a politician! Go lead a department if you've become a full-on bureaucrat!

Anyway, fecking Rutte...

 

[KirkDuyt]

Rutte resigned and is leaving politics. I did not see that coming

Safe to say he reads the caf and is trying to make us eat our words.

 

[Cheimoon]

Rutte resigned and is leaving politics. I did not see that coming

Safe to say he reads the caf and is trying to make us eat our words.

And they taste delicious. Good riddance!

 

[africanspur]

Rutte resigned and is leaving politics. I did not see that coming

Safe to say he reads the caf and is trying to make us eat our words.

Couldn't believe how long he'd been PM for! Across so many different coalitions too.

 

[Amar__]

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/10/politics/turkey-sweden-nato/index.html

I wonder what they got in return.

 

[berbatrick]

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/10/politics/turkey-sweden-nato/index.html

I wonder what they got in return.

https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/gE18B1/detta-ar-vad-sverige-och-turkiet-ar-overens-om

(from google translate)


1. On July 10, 2023, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson and NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg met at the NATO summit in Vilnius.

2. Since the last NATO summit, Sweden and Turkey have worked closely together to address Turkey's legitimate concerns about security issues. As part of that process, Sweden has amended its constitution, amended its laws and significantly expanded its anti-terrorist cooperation against the PKK, as well as reintroduced arms exports to Turkey, all in accordance with the commitments in the agreed trilateral memorandum from 2022.

3. Sweden and Turkey agree today to continue their cooperation both within the so-called permanent joint mechanism, which was established at the summit in Madrid in 2022 and which brings together experts from the countries' ministries of foreign affairs, interior and justice as well as intelligence services and security institutions, and under a new bilateral security agreement ("Security compact") which must meet annually at ministerial level and create appropriate working groups.
Sweden reiterates that it must not give any support to the YPG/PYD organizations and the organization known in Turkey as Fetö.

 

[Cheimoon]

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/07/10/politics/turkey-sweden-nato/index.html

I wonder what they got in return.

https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/gE18B1/detta-ar-vad-sverige-och-turkiet-ar-overens-om

(from google translate)


1. On July 10, 2023, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson and NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg met at the NATO summit in Vilnius.

2. Since the last NATO summit, Sweden and Turkey have worked closely together to address Turkey's legitimate concerns about security issues. As part of that process, Sweden has amended its constitution, amended its laws and significantly expanded its anti-terrorist cooperation against the PKK, as well as reintroduced arms exports to Turkey, all in accordance with the commitments in the agreed trilateral memorandum from 2022.

3. Sweden and Turkey agree today to continue their cooperation both within the so-called permanent joint mechanism, which was established at the summit in Madrid in 2022 and which brings together experts from the countries' ministries of foreign affairs, interior and justice as well as intelligence services and security institutions, and under a new bilateral security agreement ("Security compact") which must meet annually at ministerial level and create appropriate working groups.
Sweden reiterates that it must not give any support to the YPG/PYD organizations and the organization known in Turkey as Fetö.

That doesn't really answer the question, as it's less than what Erdogan had been demanding. He did bring up a path to EU membership this week and Sweden promised to advocate for steps on Turkey's behalf, but that's pretty weak as well.

My newspaper suggested that the real concession is permission to buy F16s from the US. Turkey has wanted those for a while and Biden has been in favour, but didn't have the necessary political support in the US. That changed recently, on the condition that Turkey won't use the planes around Greece. Nothing had been settled yet though, so maybe that's the breakthrough here.

 

[11101]

That doesn't really answer the question, as it's less than what Erdogan had been demanding. He did bring up a path to EU membership this week and Sweden promised to advocate for steps on Turkey's behalf, but that's pretty weak as well.

My newspaper suggested that the real concession is permission to buy F16s from the US. Turkey has wanted those for a while and Biden has been in favour, but didn't have the necessary political support in the US. That changed recently, on the condition that Turkey won't use the planes around Greece. Nothing had been settled yet though, so maybe that's the breakthrough here.

Turkey in the EU would be a disaster. I don't see a world where all 27 countries allow them in.

 

[Amar__]

Turkey in the EU would be a disaster. I don't see a world where all 27 countries allow them in.

Why? You think they are any worse than few countries that are in EU for years?

I agree that they are still long way from ideal country, but EU is far from great either.

 

[nimic]

Why? You think they are any worse than few countries that are in EU for years?

I agree that they are still long way from ideal country, but EU is far from great either.

They are far worse than any EU country. Hungary is closest, obviously, but Orban is just playing at authoritarianism compared to Erdogan.

They'd need to reverse and reform politically for them to have any chance at getting into the EU.

 

[11101]

Why? You think they are any worse than few countries that are in EU for years?

I agree that they are still long way from ideal country, but EU is far from great either.

Their economy would instantly be a sag on everybody else and Erdogan is a cnut with zero interest in any of the progressive policies the EU stands for (like basic Human Rights).

I suppose Italy would be happy as they wouldn't have to deal with all the refugees anymore, since Turkey has about 2,000km of borders with major transit countries.

 

[Cheimoon]

Turkey in the EU would be a disaster. I don't see a world where all 27 countries allow them in.

It's not happening anyway. It's unclear why Erdogan brought it up, as NATO has little do with the EU and it's obvious Turkey is nowhere near EU membership; but it did mean something had to be said about it. But I think it went no further than Sweden promising it would try and make things happen, and I think that in itself was limited to stuff like customs procedures; not an actual path to membership.

 

[NLunited]

With the growth of populist/nationalist influence in many countries, it would be hypocritical to not work with Turkey. I‘m against it, but Hungary is in the EU for example.

Rutte: good riddance. Has done a lot of damage to my country. The insane policies destroying farming and fishing were the last straw.

 

[Amar__]

Their economy would instantly be a sag on everybody else and Erdogan is a cnut with zero interest in any of the progressive policies the EU stands for (like basic Human Rights).

I suppose Italy would be happy as they wouldn't have to deal with all the refugees anymore, since Turkey has about 2,000km of borders with major transit countries.

They would replace independence on China in some things and I am quite sure that would be good for EU citizens who wouldn't be ripped off by European suppliers who resell them chinese products with big margins. Turkish industry is very strong, I am quite sure that is the main reason why EU countries don't want them, even if they improved in all other fieldsand policies.

They are far worse than any EU country. Hungary is closest, obviously, but Orban is just playing at authoritarianism compared to Erdogan.

They'd need to reverse and reform politically for them to have any chance at getting into the EU.

Worse in terms of what? What are European policies exactly?

- Worse than Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. in economy and industry?
- Worse than the likes of Bulgaria, Romania, Greece in terms of security for transit or it's citizens?
- Worse than Hungary, Greece, Poland, in terms of racism?

- LGBT? LGBT people face similar problems in the likes of Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, even Italy recently like they would to in Turkey. Istanbul has had LGBT parade since 2003, which I am not sure can be said of many european cities.

What else?

I am not defending Turkey here btw, I am just stating how low terms for EU membership were for some countries.

I am quite sure Turkey would improve when it comes to human rights, media freedom and stuff like that if that was the main reason why EU don't want them, because unlike popular beliefs, they are very modern country in many parts of the country.

but Orban is just playing at authoritarianism compared to Erdogan.

They'd need to reverse and reform politically for them to have any chance at getting into the EU.

You seriously underrate Orban. He is probably biggest racist and fascist leader in the world at the moment, unlike him at least Erdogan isn't racist, despite being many other things.

 

[maniak]

I am not defending Turkey here btw

 

[Amar__]

Nah, just trying to prove that some people have very high opinion on EU.

 

[KirkDuyt]

 

[nimic]

Worse in terms of what? What are European policies exactly?

- Worse than Bulgaria, Slovakia, etc. in economy and industry?
- Worse than the likes of Bulgaria, Romania, Greece in terms of security for transit or it's citizens?
- Worse than Hungary, Greece, Poland, in terms of racism?

In democracy, which is rather important to get into the EU. That's why I mentioned authoritarianism.

 

[Mogget]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66174352

I don't know if this is the right thread for this, or if it deserves its own thread, but this is genuinely insane. In 2023. Mental

 

[berbatrick]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Right/far right in power in Finland, Italy, Poland, Hungary, Denmark*, leading/gaining in the polls in Netherlands, Spain, Austria, Germany, and France, and also in power in UK and Sweden though maybe not for long.

Immigrants (most often claimed reason on twitter)? Ukraine invasion (when I first noticed all polls shift right)? Wokeness? Nostalgia for the 40s?

(Tweet isn't showing up, here's a link)



*yes i know it's nominally a left-right coalition, but danish socdems are filled with hitler particles

 

[utdalltheway]

Nah, just trying to prove that some people have very high opinion on EU.

Sure, but if the EU was so bad why would Turkey or all those immigrants want in?
Anyway, Turkey is predominantly an Asian country, so should feel good about joining whatever they have going on over there.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Sure, but if the EU was so bad why would Turkey or all those immigrants want in?
Anyway, Turkey is predominantly an Asian country, so should feel good about joining whatever they have going on over there.

If the EU were so good why did Britian want to leave it?

 

[utdalltheway]

I think that’s been shown to be a stupid decision.

 

[Amar__]

Sure, but if the EU was so bad why would Turkey or all those immigrants want in?
Anyway, Turkey is predominantly an Asian country, so should feel good about joining whatever they have going on over there.

Because it's still better than some part of Asia, or Africa, especially the developed part of Europe. They don't go to Poland or Slovakia, they go to Germany/Italy/Austria, etc. There are lot of people who go from Europe to Asia or even Africa too.

In democracy, which is rather important to get into the EU. That's why I mentioned authoritarianism.

They turned democratic when Erdogan's party won in the 2000s, they became more and more democratic up until early 2010s, but they were no more close to EU than they are in the last 10 year when they've leaned to authoritarian way again. I think Turkey settled that there is no place for them in the EU and they gave up and just went their way in the last 10 years.

 

[utdalltheway]

Because it's still better than some part of Asia, or Africa, especially the developed part of Europe. They don't go to Poland or Slovakia, they go to Germany/Italy/Austria, etc.
There are lot of people who go from Europe to Asia or even Africa too.

Sure they do.
People go everywhere but I'm talking about the majority. But you know that.

 

[Amar__]

https://www.euronews.com/2023/07/28...gro-finnish-government-minister-in-new-racism

Nothing new in racist Europe.

So I am on a vacation in Croatia, and yesterday I am walking by two random english speaking white dudes(they are not from UK judging by their accent btw) who are talking loudly with each other how "paycheck in big companies on similar positions should be determined by race".

I know it's individual incident, but I was shocked how people can spend their vacation and talking about races and being racist. I was disgusted, it's definitely not something that you regulary see here on Balkan from our domestic folks, despite being 100 years behind Europe on some things. We have our form of racism, it's mostly reactionary racism and it's not good either, but we don't spend our days talking how to solve problems of having people with different skin colour around us. That kind of "natural" racism will never go away, am I right?

 

[nimic]

https://www.euronews.com/2023/07/28...gro-finnish-government-minister-in-new-racism

Nothing new in racist Europe.

So I am on a vacation in Croatia, and yesterday I am walking by two random english speaking white dudes(they are not from UK judging by their accent btw) who are talking loudly with each other how "paycheck in big companies on similar positions should be determined by race".

I know it's individual incident, but I was shocked how people can spend their vacation and talking about races and being racist. I was disgusted, it's definitely not something that you regulary see here on Balkan from our domestic folks, despite being 100 years behind Europe on some things. We have our form of racism, it's mostly reactionary racism and it's not good either, but we don't spend our days talking how to solve problems of having people with different skin colour around us. That kind of "natural" racism will never go away, am I right?

Were they from Ireland? If not, surely they weren't even European. Unless they were from different countries and communicating in English, I guess.

I don't think what you witnessed is a common thing. I've never heard anyone discuss anything like that, at least. Seen plenty of it online, though.

 

[africanspur]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67118787

Polish ruling party set to lose majority - exit poll

The right-wing populist Law and Justice party is on course to win most seats in Poland's general election, an exit poll suggests, but will struggle to secure a third term in office.

Known as PiS, it is set to win 36.8% of the vote, with the centrist opposition on 31.6%, says the Ipsos poll.

But if it is correct, Donald Tusk's Civic Coalition has a greater chance of forming a coalition.

 

[Tyrion]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67118787

Polish ruling party set to lose majority - exit poll

The right-wing populist Law and Justice party is on course to win most seats in Poland's general election, an exit poll suggests, but will struggle to secure a third term in office.

Known as PiS, it is set to win 36.8% of the vote, with the centrist opposition on 31.6%, says the Ipsos poll.

But if it is correct, Donald Tusk's Civic Coalition has a greater chance of forming a coalition.

Good to see. People should be quicker to punish parties that try to influence the system to entrench themselves.

 

[Red Star One]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67118787

Polish ruling party set to lose majority - exit poll

The right-wing populist Law and Justice party is on course to win most seats in Poland's general election, an exit poll suggests, but will struggle to secure a third term in office.

Known as PiS, it is set to win 36.8% of the vote, with the centrist opposition on 31.6%, says the Ipsos poll.

But if it is correct, Donald Tusk's Civic Coalition has a greater chance of forming a coalition.

I'm fecking balling tonight like there's no tomorrow, it's an excellent result by the looks of an exit poll so for and it seems like PiS (Law and Justice) is set to lose power with almost no way to build a majority. Incredible for so many reasons - turnout at around 74% is astonishing and something we've never seen before. PiS had a huge unfair advantage due to their takeover of public and some regional media and numerous other filthy, plain illegal or just shockingly bad taste tricks they did. We've been on a course to become another Hungary and stay as an oligarchish authoritarian state with one party for decades. Winning today is huge and it's the first time in many years I can feel any optimistic about Poland and the direction it's heading.