EU unhappy with vaccination exports to non EU countries

[Classical Mechanic]

The UK is probably supplying the extra 9 million on the Qt. We are world leaders in humanitarian aid after all.

 

[Virgil]

I’m a British and Swedish citizen mate, I’m saying I doubt a British/ Swedish company (plc) is able to suddenly “find” an extra 9 million doses. They have provided them due to the pressure the EU put on them, which begs the question, how can they suddenly get 9 million more?

AZ and the non-profit thing, come on man, they are due to make an incredible amount of money in the coming years due to Covid and the Oxford vaccine.

Corr. Did not realise you were such an authority. British and Swedish citizenship. You must be an expert. Sadly I’m simply a poor Brit who reckons there is enough nastiness in the world without adding to it by attributing the worst to anyone and anything until proof is provided to the contrary.

 

[Green_Red]

And you can give it a rest as well. Geesh does every comment have to come with a Brexit free clause.

What has that got to do with Brexit?

 

[jojojo]

Radio 4's "How to Vaccinate the World" series was talking about vaccine nationalism today. A couple of interesting suggestions came up. Worth a listen if you like such things
How to vaccinate the world R4

The first and what may technically/strategically be the significant one was that the US and UK buying teams effectively treated the vaccines as R&D projects with budgets for development, trials and initial manufacturing setup, rather than as purchase orders - they gambled financially on multiple products/producers with an expectation that the products could fail at any stage, including during manufacturing ramp up. The EU negotiators may have treated them as procurement contracts for known products, and therefore went with better prices and less contingency for failure.

The second and more intriguing idea was that if vaccine nationalism had taken hold in the EU, then there might have been more vaccine doses available globally by now. That's largely based on the idea that Germany in particular would have followed the R&D, build up manufacturing capacity strategy. Speculation of course, but an interesting angle.

 

[Tucholsky]

The second and more intriguing idea was that if vaccine nationalism had taken hold in the EU, then there might have been more vaccine doses available globally by now. That's largely based on the idea that Germany in particular would have followed the R&D, build up manufacturing capacity strategy. Speculation of course, but an interesting angle.

Interesting.
In theory it could have worked. But looking at the current political landscape in Germany I doubt that Germany would have been succesful at it. Not that it couldn't do that.
But due structural reasons and the current political climate I think it would have spent too much time on compromising and decision finding, that it would not be much further than it already is on vaccines.
It mirrors the EU in that case.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Interesting.
In theory it could have worked. But looking at the current political landscape in Germany I doubt that Germany would have been succesful at it. Not that it couldn't do that.
But due due structural reasons and the current political climate I think it would have spent too much time on compromising and decision finding, that it would not be much further than it already is on vaccines.
It mirrors the EU in that case.

To be fair to Germany, there’s a good chance that the Curevac vaccine would be under development in the US, with a commitment to exclusive US supply had they not intervened very early on in the pandemic. That was probably the earliest example of vaccine nationalism in this saga.

 

[Tucholsky]

To be fair to Germany, there’s a good chance that the Curevac vaccine would be under development in the US, with a commitment to exclusive US supply had they not intervened very early on in the pandemic. That was probably the earliest example of vaccine nationalism in this saga.

Just to clarify:
Germany did out of a lot of reasons some things well and some bad.
On the CureVac vaccine, it was the right decision.
But to heap praise on the Biontech founders/owners. They made the same decision against vaccine nationalism without government pressure and financial support by it. Yes they partnered with Pfizer, but there was never a hint of them considering an exclusive contract with the US (or anyone else)

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Corr. Did not realise you were such an authority. British and Swedish citizenship. You must be an expert.

What an odd post.

I’m saying I don’t trust a giant plc, and showing that nationality has nothing to with that distrust. Not cause I think they’re evil, but money does talk, let’s not be naive here.

“Expert”, “in the know”, “authority”.... yeah, I wouldn’t be posting on the caf would I?

 

[Plymouth Red]

The UK is probably supplying the extra 9 million on the Qt. We are world leaders in humanitarian aid after all.

Last April, the EU issued a press release on aid donations which said

In 2019, three EU Member States met their ODA commitments of providing 0.7% or more of their GNI in ODA: Luxembourg, Sweden, Denmark as well as the United Kingdom.

The preamble to the report said

Commissioner for International Partnerships, Jutta Urpilainen, said: "As the world's leading donor of Official Development Assistance, the EU is saving lives, building stronger economies and protecting the planet for the benefit of millions throughout the world. However, I am concerned that our collective effort on GNI is at its lowest since 2016. I call on all Member States and all development actors to re-double their efforts.

Gives you a good feeling to know we can say we did our bit, doesn’t it?

 

[Cheimoon]

Following up on the discussion on Von der Leyen's performance: I was reading an interview today (Dutch newspaper) where she isn't apologizing for anything. The EU did great on contract talks, everything is clearer now with AstraZeneca, last week with NI/Article 16 wasn't a big issue (everything moves quickly because it's all an emergency right now, so errors of judgement are made; shit happens), criticism just makes you stronger, and evaluation of her work is only due at the end of her term - that sort of talk. I suppose not saying sorry ever is a great way to advance your career, but this might be a little tone-deaf...

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Last April, the EU issued a press release on aid donations which said

In 2019, three EU Member States met their ODA commitments of providing 0.7% or more of their GNI in ODA: Luxembourg, Sweden, Denmark as well as the United Kingdom.

The preamble to the report said

Commissioner for International Partnerships, Jutta Urpilainen, said: "As the world's leading donor of Official Development Assistance, the EU is saving lives, building stronger economies and protecting the planet for the benefit of millions throughout the world. However, I am concerned that our collective effort on GNI is at its lowest since 2016. I call on all Member States and all development actors to re-double their efforts.

Gives you a good feeling to know we can say we did our bit, doesn’t it?

Bozzers Tory government quickly dropped that law at the first opportunity though eh? 0.5% now aint it?

World leaders are countries like Sweden, 1% since 2008 and 400,000 refugees taken in during the 2015 migrant crisis.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Following up on the discussion on Von der Leyen's performance: I was reading an interview today (Dutch newspaper) where she isn't apologizing for anything. The EU did great on contract talks, everything is clearer now with AstraZeneca, last week with NI/Article 16 wasn't a big issue (everything moves quickly because it's all an emergency right now, so errors of judgement are made; shit happens), criticism just makes you stronger, and evaluation of her work is only due at the end of her term - that sort of talk. I suppose not saying sorry ever is a great way to advance your career, but this might be a little tone-deaf...

Politicians just don’t say sorry or admit mistakes, hell Tories that voted against free school meals for the poorest families wouldn’t even admit it on GMB.
Weird bunch, but guess admitting mistakes is career suicide.

 

[Cheimoon]

Politicians just don’t say sorry or admit mistakes, hell Tories that voted against free school meals for the poorest families wouldn’t even admit it on GMB.
Weird bunch, but guess admitting mistakes is career suicide.

There's a difference between not apologizing and just not saying that anything went wrong in any kind of way though. She seemed a little too happy with things in that interview. But anyway - I guess it tells you something about where the EU feels things are at with vaccines and with their new relation with the UK.

 

[Stanley Road]

Maybe brexit wasn't such a bad idea claim some eu papers re vaccines.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

There's a difference between not apologizing and just not saying that anything went wrong in any kind of way though. She seemed a little too happy with things in that interview. But anyway - I guess it tells you something about where the EU feels things are at with vaccines and with their new relation with the UK.

You can see how, in her own head, she might think nothing has gone wrong.

In the echo chamber she’s operating in the UK grossly overpaid for their vaccines, allowed big pharma place all the indemnity risk on the uk government, are using an emergency licensing process that cuts several corners in terms of post-authorisation safety and have inflated their vaccination numbers by using vaccines against the terms of their license and in elderly people where there is inadequate evidence of efficacy.

Obviously, the truth is somewhere in between her internalised version of events - where the EU are playing a more prudent and sensible long game - and the one where their indecision and conservatism has cost (and will cost) thousands of lives throughout the EU. But you understand why she might think the criticism is unjustified, even if you’re convinced that it is.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

You can see how, in her own head, she might think nothing has gone wrong.

In the echo chamber she’s operating in the UK grossly overpaid for their vaccines, allowed big pharma place all the indemnity risk on the uk government, are using an emergency licensing process that cuts several corners in terms of post-authorisation safety and have inflated their vaccination numbers by using vaccines against the terms of their license and in elderly people where there is inadequate evidence of efficacy.

Obviously, the truth is somewhere in between her internalised version of events - where the EU are playing a more prudent and sensible long game - and the one where their indecision and conservatism has cost (and will cost) thousands of lives throughout the EU. But you understand why she might think the criticism is unjustified, even if you’re convinced that it is.

Not really.

There was never a problem with NI being used to export EU vaccines to the UK and no evidence to suggest that the export ban has or would in the future stop even one extra dose leaving the EU to go to the UK. It was a panic move from a panicked organization based on wild stories, jumped on Trump like to misdirect the public and even encouraged Macron to talk more bollocks than normal. Which had me yesterday explaining why the AZ vaccine isn't really only 8% effective and being told even the French President said so. What a mess and good luck getting the extra vaccines into reluctant people's arms now.

The EU is now synonymous with vaccine nationalism and has been attacked for its stance by virtually everyone including countries as far away as Japan.

If it has actually bullied its way to 9 million more doses then personally I hope they stick them all in Ursula's backside.

 

[Wibble]

Not really.

There was never a problem with NI being used to export EU vaccines to the UK and no evidence to suggest that the export ban has or would in the future stop even one extra dose leaving the EU to go to the UK. It was a panic move from a panicked organization based on wild stories, jumped on Trump like to misdirect the public and even encouraged Macron to talk more bollocks than normal. Which had me yesterday explaining why the AZ vaccine isn't really only 8% effective and being told even the French President said so. What a mess and good luck getting the extra vaccines into reluctant people's arms now.

The EU is now synonymous with vaccine nationalism and has been attacked for its stance by virtually everyone including countries as far away as Japan.

If it has actually bullied its way to 9 million more doses then personally I hope they stick them all in Ursula's backside.

Darkly ironic that this has revealed a flaw in the EU that could be vastly improved, yet it was bullshit, lies and red herrings (presumably in British waters) that dominated the brexit "debate".

 

[Cheimoon]

You can see how, in her own head, she might think nothing has gone wrong.

In the echo chamber she’s operating in the UK grossly overpaid for their vaccines, allowed big pharma place all the indemnity risk on the uk government, are using an emergency licensing process that cuts several corners in terms of post-authorisation safety and have inflated their vaccination numbers by using vaccines against the terms of their license and in elderly people where there is inadequate evidence of efficacy.

Obviously, the truth is somewhere in between her internalised version of events - where the EU are playing a more prudent and sensible long game - and the one where their indecision and conservatism has cost (and will cost) thousands of lives throughout the EU. But you understand why she might think the criticism is unjustified, even if you’re convinced that it is.

I'm not sure it works that way. I mean, I get the echo chamber part (even if I'd hope that she'd have better sense than insulating herself that way), and I get that she might think she did nothing wrong, even without being in an echo chamber. (It's not like they had zero arguments for their actions.) And even if she did think they got it wrongs she may think that it was minor and of the 'shit happens' kind. What I don't get, is why she would reject any notion of error and not offer any kind of apology - if only about not notifying member states about the Article 16 decision. Even if that was completely justified in her mind, surely she can admit that at least Ireland, an EU member state, should have been notified of the decision before it went public.

On the other hand, if she's fully convinced she was right, or at least did things to the best of her knowledge at the time, and in any case has no intention of resigning, then I suppose there's nothing to be gained by apologizing. It'd just provide ammo to the critics. Maybe that also plays a role. Plus I suppose there's something to be said for not apologizing if you dedicate your life to public service, do your work with the best intentions for the good of the people, and then sometimes get something wrong in the heat of the moment. 'I'm not sorry for unintentionally getting it wrong while doing my best to save lives in the EU.'

Hm, you can kinda see me think in this post. Commenting was much easier and shorter for me when I was just claiming she was stupid and/or tone-deaf.

 

[caid]

You can see how, in her own head, she might think nothing has gone wrong.

In the echo chamber she’s operating in the UK grossly overpaid for their vaccines, allowed big pharma place all the indemnity risk on the uk government, are using an emergency licensing process that cuts several corners in terms of post-authorisation safety and have inflated their vaccination numbers by using vaccines against the terms of their license and in elderly people where there is inadequate evidence of efficacy.

Obviously, the truth is somewhere in between her internalised version of events - where the EU are playing a more prudent and sensible long game - and the one where their indecision and conservatism has cost (and will cost) thousands of lives throughout the EU. But you understand why she might think the criticism is unjustified, even if you’re convinced that it is.

All fair up to the article 16 decision. Which was monumentally ill judged.
She should be forced to resign on that one decision. Its not a live and learn mistake. Its a never put this person in charge of making decisions ever again mistake.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm not sure it works that way. I mean, I get the echo chamber part (even if I'd hope that she'd have better sense than insulating herself that way), and I get that she might think she did nothing wrong, evenn without being an echo chamber. (It's not like they had zero arguments for their actions.) And even if she did think they got it wrongs she may think that it was minor and of the 'shit happens' kind. What I don't get, is why she would reject any notion of error and not offer any kind of apology - if only about not notifying member states about the Article 16 decision. Even if that was completely justified in her mind, surely she can admit that at least Ireland, an EU member state, should have been notified of the decision before it went public.

On the other hand, if she's fully convinced she was right, or at least did things to the best of her knowledge at the time, and in any case has no intention of resigning, then I suppose there's nothing to be gained by apologizing. It'd just provide ammo to the critics. Maybe that also plays a role. Plus I suppose there's something to be said for not apologizing if you dedicate your life to public service, do your work with the best intentions for the good of the people, and then sometimes get something wrong in the heat of the moment. 'I'm not sorry for unintentionally getting it wrong while doing my best to save lives in the EU.'

Hm, you can kinda see me think in this post. Commenting was much easier and shorter for me when I was just claiming she was stupid and/or tone-deaf.

All fair up to the article 16 decision. Which was monumentally ill judged.
She should be forced to resign on that one decision. Its not a live and learn mistake. Its a never put this person in charge of making decisions ever again mistake.

Yeah, true. It’s not possible to see any scenario in which triggering article 16 could be justified, then or now. The fact the decision was reversed so quickly proves she knew it was a crap decision. So I agree an apology (and explanation) is due on that one.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Ursula von der Leyen: UK is Covid vaccine 'speedboat' compared with EU 'tanker'

 

[Stanley Road]

Ursula von der Leyen: UK is Covid vaccine 'speedboat' compared with EU 'tanker'

And she's right. Unfortunately for the UK it might just be the thing people remember at the next election.

 

[Cheimoon]

Ursula von der Leyen: UK is Covid vaccine 'speedboat' compared with EU 'tanker'

Good interview. She even says this time that she regrets the Article 16 decision.

Personally, I wish it was made clearer that the EU has no roll in the on-the-ground roll-out of the vaccine in each country, but I guess I'm too nitpicky...

 

[Green_Red]

This has really escalated. It's hard to believe the behaviour of the EU.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

This has really escalated. It's hard to believe the behaviour of the EU.

The UK have done it too, but in contract with the pharma companies, the US are doing it outright showing not only Trump thinks it’s America first . At least the EU has exported some fexking vaccine.
They are all cnuts though, which was to be fully expected.

 

[11101]

The UK have done it too, but in contract with the pharma companies, the US are doing it outright showing not only Trump thinks it’s America first . At least the EU has exported some fexking vaccine.
They are all cnuts though, which was to be fully expected.

The US has been happily exporting vaccine manufacturing materials to Europe though. The UK hasn't exported so much as a cardboard box.

I don't know why the EU didn't shut exports down sooner, as soon it became clear they would be short of vaccine supplies.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

I don't know why the EU didn't shut exports down sooner, as soon it became clear they would be short of vaccine supplies.

I don’t think they’d have even considered it, until AZ started telling them that despite shipping millions from EU to UK, they were contractually unable to do vice versa.
As I say, all cnuts, yet somehow only the EU is getting heat, I can’t for the life of me understand why the UK is now being portrayed as a likely “victim” of the nasty EU banning their vaccines.
Bizarre.

 

[11101]

I don’t think they’d have even considered it, until AZ started telling them that despite shipping millions from EU to UK, they were contractually unable to do vice versa.
As I say, all cnuts, yet somehow only the EU is getting heat, I can’t for the life of me understand why the UK is now being portrayed as a likely “victim” of the nasty EU banning their vaccines.
Bizarre.

Because you're reading British press and public opinion that's still desperately trying to justify Brexit. This all barely gets a mention in European media.

 

[Dumbstar]

Were there mitigating circumstances like AZ was ready to drop some of their supply to EU back in January but the EU said hold on we're not sure you're actually any good, specially for over 65s. AZ then redistributed that supply to the UK before hitting production issues?

 

[lynchie]

The US has been happily exporting vaccine manufacturing materials to Europe though. The UK hasn't exported so much as a cardboard box.

I don't know why the EU didn't shut exports down sooner, as soon it became clear they would be short of vaccine supplies.

This is, of course, not true.

"Pfizer, whose vaccine has been used the most across the EU so far, reportedly said the region should not block the export of Covid shots because the company needs raw materials from the U.K. Imposing restrictions on the vaccines could lead the U.K. to retaliate by preventing ingredients from getting to EU plants."
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/22/uk-and-eu-covid-vaccine-export-ban-spat-grows.html

 

[11101]

This is, of course, not true.

"Pfizer, whose vaccine has been used the most across the EU so far, reportedly said the region should not block the export of Covid shots because the company needs raw materials from the U.K. Imposing restrictions on the vaccines could lead the U.K. to retaliate by preventing ingredients from getting to EU plants."
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/22/uk-and-eu-covid-vaccine-export-ban-spat-grows.html

In December Pfizer said raw materials are all sourced from the US and Europe, so i'm sure they're not that reliant on the UK.

 

[lynchie]

In December Pfizer said raw materials are all sourced from the US and Europe, so i'm sure they're not that reliant on the UK.

1. "Not so much as a cardboard box" to "Not that reliant" is the fastest I've seen goalposts move since Diana Ross took that penalty
2. Which continent do you think the UK is in?

 

[christy87]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

This thread sums up the EU's biggest mistake in not being a complete dick at the start and now wanting to be one like the US and the UK.

 

[11101]

1. "Not so much as a cardboard box" to "Not that reliant" is the fastest I've seen goalposts move since Diana Ross took that penalty
2. Which continent do you think the UK is in?

I should clarify that to say the European Union then (who has also said nothing has come out of the UK).

 

[GazTheLegend]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

This thread sums up the EU's biggest mistake in not being a complete dick at the start and now wanting to be one like the US and the UK.

I didn't realise "being quick to sign contracts with the vaccine manufacturers" = being a dick. The UK politicians keep reiterating that they want to work together with the EU in everyone's interest, it's the EU politicians that realise the treacherous ice they're navigating here politically. And it really is in everyone's interest that EVERYBODY gets vaccinated, the manufacturers attitude, presumably, is that the UK gave regulatory approval much quicker (and in fact the EU only realised they had a supply issue the very weekend they GAVE regulatory approval).

At some point things will relax. Hopefully there's no more divisions that come from all of this nonsense - we really need to consider continents outside Europe -as well- because there's a serious existential threat if we don't get the virus under control in places like Brazil, if this thing mutates further. Stopping vaccine exports entirely is a dangerous game, as the WHO has said.

 

[nickm]

If the EU had a legal leg to stand on, they would be standing on it, rather than issuing threats (designed to achieve a political rather than legal outcome).

 

[Paul the Wolf]

See we're back to the political reason bollox. The problem is that the UK signed a contract where they got the vaccines first, the EU didn't - so if the EU had been the 'dick' as others have said means that if the EU had signed a contract to get all the vaccines first then the UK would start vaccinating the AZ in about 2024 at the current rate of production.

 

[Abizzz]

Britains throwing a tantrum over others threatening to do what Britain does must be the most brexiteer thing since actual brexit happened?

 

[Buster15]

Sadly, the EU vaccination programme is not going to be their finest hour. Numerous mistakes have been made.
But my biggest concern centres on the reputational damage caused to public confidence in the Oxford/AZ vaccine.
There has been so many changes to policy by a number of countries regarding the AZ vaccine, that it is inevitable that public confidence is low. And that will have a direct effect on cases of covid infection and consequent loss of life.
The vaccine was judged safe and still is judged safe. But lives have been lost due to the provarification.

 

[Balljy]

I just don't understand why this is anything at all to do with countries. Companies are making the vaccines and they have contracts. If the company (not the country) are not keeping to contracts that's the issue and blocking the export of products to other countries is beyond comprehension and actually a bit worrying. It's a legal issue with the manufacturers surely?

That's applicable to any country who's thinking of doing it whether it be the UK, US or any in the EU.