FA to investigate Edinson Cavani | This thread is taking a break

[matt23]

So he's being investigated for speaking Spanish because we're worried about racism. Very 2020.

 

[Ferguson’s Hairdryer]

Breaking: After investigating the FA have found Cavani not guilty and for causing drama have awarded United a penalty in each of our next 3 matches.

 

[Sky1981]

Think it is an innocent mistake, but deserving of at least a strong warning or a small ban.

If you ban him that's a punishment... what he's guilty of again?

 

[Smores]

So he's being investigated for speaking Spanish because we're worried about racism. Very 2020.

No he isn't.

 

[DoomSlayer]

Though you could argue it’s right to clamp down on celebs as impressionable kids look up to them.

Social media is the last place kids should look for good impressions and role models. I honestly believe that social media should be allowed only for adults.

 

[dumbo]

You lot have gone are mad.

 

[groovyalbert]

If anyone should be in hot water over this it's the club, not Cavani.

They should have prepped him for what to expect when playing in the UK, and where the potential cultural clashes exist. Given how close the club was to the Evra-Suarez incident, you would hope something like "avoid using this term publicly" would have been a simple and easy lesson to learn. (Not equating the two incidents, just highlighting the simple lessons that could have been discerned).

What's also disappointing is that this demonstrates how superficial the BLM impact on football has been so far. Yes, there's been great and symbolic exposure, and conversations are happening that previously weren't, but the idea that club's like Utd are bringing in players of Cavani's ilk and not properly introducing them to the movement and it's ties to football in the UK currently is a bit baffling.

I don't think this is something that needs punishments being handed out by the FA for, but you would hope the club does see the areas they can improve on going forward.

 

[Falcow]

15 pages in less than 24 hours? Impressive.

The word he used translates as blacky or little black. If he said this to Walcott yesterday for example then yes, ban and fine. Otherwise move on.

 

[Neil_Buchanan]

Why does context not matter anymore?

 

[RedChisel]

Though you could argue it’s right to clamp down on celebs as impressionable kids look up to them.

No the bigger issue will be all the kids growing up with racist mouth breather parents not a footballer using a word that he meant no offence using.

 

[Uniquim]

Somehow I have a feeling this will lead to Evra getting a four-match ban.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Why does context not matter anymore?

Because of the culture we live in. Not sure if the anti racism bodies are on to this but it'd be interesting to hear their thoughts on it.

The FA will punish him given the recent events surrounding Greg Clarke and his comments. Whether they look at mitigating factors given the language who knows.

 

[GBBQ]

No, it doesn't.

For example, someone could dress up in blackface without any level of hate involved. It would still be racist and still be punished by the FA. Just as Bernardo Silva comparing a teammate to a racially-loaded cartoon character was punished by the FA. There was no intent on his part, or hatred involved and the context was friendly. But he still got punished because it's possible to say/do racist things through ignorance rather than through hatred. As a lot of the extended conversations on race in 2020 have made clear.

Intent matters but it isn't the be all and end all. In this case there was no intent on Cavani's part but he still shared something inappropriate with the world, which he then had to delete. Something that by the standards he works and operates in should be punished. That's the long and the short of it, really.

Pretty much sums it up.

Racism still pervades the sport globally and I don't think the Premier League can start getting bogged down in determining context when there's a chance of offence being caused. They have to have a zero tolerance approach so I'd expect a ban even though its clear there was no intent to offend.

 

[Will Singh]

"Thank you black" in reference to the kit he is wearing (and our away form being so much better than our home form) isn't racist...

Is that what it was about? The way everyone is going on and comparing it to Suarez I was getting worried!

 

[antohan]

There are two real points here

1) Anyone comparing it to Suarez is a moron at best, a racist looking to defend Suarez at worst. One thing is said to an adversary in an argument (and the word Suarez used was negro, not negrito), the other said to a friend.

2) The people defending Cavani are also morons. None of the arguments made in his defence are an excuse that amounts to anything more than ignorance. It doesn't matter what is acceptable in South America, what's acceptable in South America can still be wrong. Just because black people in South America have been exposed to this racially degrading language their entire lives and treat "my black friend" as a term of endearment because a backhanded compliment is still a compliment doesn't mean it's acceptable anymore than calling someone "my gay friend" would be. There are plenty of countries where the death penalty are still acceptable, it doesn't mean it is acceptable.

Qualifying or identifying your positive relationship with someone based on their race is racist, it just is. It's not an obvious or malicious form of racism but it's still not acceptable and we shouldn't allow it. Bernardo Silva got a 1 match ban for a similar offence (if slightly more obviously racist) and Cavani will likely get a similarly serious reprimand, deservedly so.

Hopefully he learns from this.

Except they don't find it racially degrading. It's just your holier than thou cultural fascism taking that for granted.

I'm fed up with all this grandstanding and derogatory remarks as if South Americans were simply backwards and living in the Middle Ages.

A few facts for you:

• Uruguay abolished slavery in 1815
• Black people could vote here before women did
• We were the first national team to show up at an international tournament (1916 Copa America) with not one but two black players, one of them a winger and the halfback playing behind him was the nephew of the country's President.
• All of that happened here before Martin Luther King was even born, let alone shot.

We use nicknames that make reference to identifiable characteristics, be it skin colour, hair colour or absence of it, weight, height, shape, nationality, oversized nose/ears/mouth/cock and whatnot, even physical handicaps (manco, tuerto, chueco, mudo). We use them with mates obviously, not random people down the street. More than endearment, it indicates intimacy. Harry Maguire would no doubt be "El Cabeza" to his mates.

For every one of those identifiable/remarkable characteristics you could have the negative overtone option (typically adding "feckin'" or something along those lines to make it bloody clear). Hell, even on here you have people referring to Maguire's big head when having a pop.

In a way, what it actually does is neutralise the negatively loaded references by creating positively charged ones for the exact same attribute.

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

It was clearly not meant to be offensive. Yes it would be the irony, that FA can come out as the racists if they punish someone for having a "savage culture".

I'm not sure I understand your post, who's said anything about Cavano's culture being 'savage'?

 

[Annihilate Now!]

It's interesting... Personally I find the idea of people being described by their skin colour to be a bit crass... BUT it is not my place to either judge or change how an entirely different culture uses language... That's for them to decide . Maybe in 50 years they won't use it anymore, maybe they will, who knows... All I know is it has nothing to do with me.

It's like when I go to South Africa and hear people say the word "coloured" to describe people... Am I a fan of it? No... Its it for me to start preaching about what is right and what is wrong when using language, also no.

I do find something in this thread kinda of funny though, one being the "outrage" at "cancel culture" or that "everyone has to walk on egg shells" these days... No, the FA are investigating a post that sounds vaguely racist. That's it... Let's see what comes out of it first aye?

I just hope to god no idiot has said "snowflakes"

 

[fergieisold]

So he's being investigated for speaking Spanish because we're worried about racism. Very 2020.

It's mad, shows how well we've done against racism when we're hunting it down in places where it doesn't exist.

 

[Myrecks]

I’d be shocked if he got a ban for this. Someone is supporting him and he is answering in an affectionate way (in the culture the two people that this is about are speaking/texting). To say that this is racist because you don’t understand it or it doesn’t make sense would be completely insane. Suárez incident was completely different.

 

[Lynty]

If you ban him that's a punishment... what he's guilty of again?

Ignorance

He's not racist, but he should have known that 'negrito' has the potential to cause offence in an English speaking country. No due diligence.

One have my closest friends has had a nickname for 25 years, that may now be considered homophobic. It would be ignorant of me to call him out in a public place were nobody has context - and I'd have to accept the consequences.

 

[sullydnl]

Why does context not matter anymore?

Context does matter. If he had referenced someone's race as part of a hate-filled attack he would certainly be facing much harsher punishment. That context isn't everything though.

 

[KM]

Thought so, maybe someone should let Jonathan Liew at the guardian know? I'd hoped they'd have been more careful about this sort of thing.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-fa-investigation-social-media-instagram-post

Aye, here's the link of the report for anyone who wants to compare it to Suarez-Evra case. There's no mention of "negrito".

http://www.thefa.com/~/media/files/.../the-fa-v-luis-suarez---14-december-2011.ashx

 

[RoyH1]

...We use nicknames that make reference to identifiable characteristics, be it skin colour, hair colour or absence of it, weight, height, shape, nationality, oversized nose/ears/mouth/cock and whatnot, even physical handicaps (manco, tuerto, chueco, mudo). We use them with mates obviously, not random people down the street. More than endearment, it indicates intimacy. Harry Maguire would no doubt be "El Cabeza" to his mates.....

Good post Antohan. By the way, I think what you write here is something that is very common in many Spanish speaking countries in the Americas. Nicknames based on a definable characteristic in childhood or adolescence can stick for a lifetime. For better and for worse.

 

[Pogba's Barber]

Incorrectly translate/interpret a foreign dialect and subsequently punish somebody for something they actually didn't say. Are we using VAR for social justice now?

Anybody judging by a literal translation is as culturally ignorant as Cavani in this case, and should also educate themselves before jumping to conclusions. It's bigoted to suggest that he was clearly calling his non-black friend "little black man", and not the regional colloquialism of "dear friend". Have a look at the most popular definition on Urban Dictionary (also specifies particular meaning in written form). I accept that this is not the best source of linguistic fact, but it's often a reasonable sense of slang and regional dialect:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=negrito

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

Except they don't find it racially degrading. It's just your holier than thou cultural fascism taking that for granted.

I'm fed up with all this grandstanding and derogatory remarks as if South Americans were simply backwards and living in the Middle Ages.

A few facts for you:

• Uruguay abolished slavery in 1815
• Black people could vote here before women did
• We were the first national team to show up at an international tournament (1916 Copa America) with not one but two black players, one of them a winger and the halfback playing behind him was the nephew of the country's President.
• All of that happened here before Martin Luther King was even born, let alone shot.

We use nicknames that make reference to identifiable characteristics, be it skin colour, hair colour or absence of it, weight, height, shape, nationality, oversized nose/ears/mouth/cock and whatnot, even physical handicaps (manco, tuerto, chueco, mudo). We use them with mates obviously, not random people down the street. More than endearment, it indicates intimacy. Harry Maguire would no doubt be "El Cabeza" to his mates.

For every one of those identifiable/remarkable characteristics you could have the negative overtone option (typically adding "feckin'" or something along those lines to make it bloody clear). Hell, even on here you have people referring to Maguire's big head when having a pop.

In a way, what it actually does is neutralise the negatively loaded references by creating positively charged ones for the exact same attribute.

I haven't seen anyone criticising Uruguay or Uruguayan culture. That's not the issue here. Also, nobody is calling Cavani racist or suggesting he intended to racially abuse anyone.

It's very simple - in different cultures certain words and phrases have a different history and a different social perspective.

It seems clear that South American people commenting on this are unaminous that saying 'Negrito or Negro' is socially acceptable in South American culture. If that's the case then fine.

But in the UK it's not socially acceptable to casually use words like Negro or similar sounding words.

It's not about UK culture being better, or there being a problem with Uruguay's culture. It's simply a fact that Cavani is now in England and has been advised that using that word here will lead to issues.

It's not an attack on South America.
It's not PC gone mad.
It's not cancel culture.

Just a person adapting the customs of the new country he lives in.

 

[BootsyCollins]

Quite a bit of difference comparing a friend to a tasteless caricature of a black person and saying "thank you my friend".

Sorry for not beeing clear, i am not comparing the acts in it self, just the situations. Hope thats clearer.

 

[sullydnl]

Thats not really a fact by the way, its not deemed inappropriate all over the world and especially not in Latin America

That's fab but it doesn't really matter.

When he posts on social media it isn't only seen in countries where such terminology is appropriate and when he agrees to abide by the social media standards layed out by the FA they aren't based on what's appropriate within Latin America.

By the standards that actually count in this instance, it's likely inappropriate.

 

[Judas]

Context is key, hopefully that important aspect doesn't get annoyed. It's so far removed from other examples the media have brought up.

Plus it would be gutting after that performance yesterday to lose him over something so silly.

 

[DoomSlayer]

Except they don't find it racially degrading. It's just your holier than thou cultural fascism taking that for granted.

I'm fed up with all this grandstanding and derogatory remarks as if South Americans were simply backwards and living in the Middle Ages.

A few facts for you:

• Uruguay abolished slavery in 1815
• Black people could vote here before women did
• We were the first national team to show up at an international tournament (1916 Copa America) with not one but two black players, one of them a winger and the halfback playing behind him was the nephew of the country's President.
• All of that happened here before Martin Luther King was even born, let alone shot.

We use nicknames that make reference to identifiable characteristics, be it skin colour, hair colour or absence of it, weight, height, shape, nationality, oversized nose/ears/mouth/cock and whatnot, even physical handicaps (manco, tuerto, chueco, mudo). We use them with mates obviously, not random people down the street. More than endearment, it indicates intimacy. Harry Maguire would no doubt be "El Cabeza" to his mates.

For every one of those identifiable/remarkable characteristics you could have the negative overtone option (typically adding "feckin'" or something along those lines to make it bloody clear). Hell, even on here you have people referring to Maguire's big head when having a pop.

In a way, what it actually does is neutralise the negatively loaded references by creating positively charged ones for the exact same attribute.

You can try to explain as civilly and as rationally as possible, but there's too many people with their heads in their asses. Too many people from certain geographic places believe they hold the moral high ground on what is socially acceptable, which is incredibly ironic, when you look at their heritage and history.

 

[The Boy]

Did Suarez actually use that negrito word though? There was so much debate but i thought it was other words and phrases used.

No Suarez didn't, there's alot of media reporting that he did though.

Suarez used the word "Negro" about 7 times in a few minutes and it was ruled by the FA to have been used to denigrate Evra rather than as an affectionate term that Saurez claimed. Evra said at the time on the pitch because the conversation was in Spanish, he thought, Saurez was calling him a n***** but afterwards accepted he meant black. The FA (correctly, I think) ruled that it was a derogatory use of the word and specifically referring to the colour of Evra's skin.

I don't know enough about Latin American Spanish to know if Negrito is all that different from Negro, but Cavani is using a different word and is clearly using it in a very different context.

The Guardian at the time printed a lot of the first hand evidence: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2012/jan/01/fa-report-luis-suarez-patrice-evra

EDIT: For those hoping for a one match ban using the Mendy precedent, the rules changed at the beginning of this season, so if he is punished it has to be a minimum 3 match ban now. Personally I don't think the FA will go through with the investigation, but we'll see.

Also for those saying the FA have no right to interfere with what he writes on his "private social media channels" - it's worth noting this wasn't a private channel it was his IG stories and as so was published to 7.8 million people. And Social media postings are covered by FA Rules if a post is deemed to include a reference to a person’s ethnic origin, colour, race or nationality, then that will be regarded as a potential aggravating factor in any punishment.

 

[broccoli]

The state of affairs when a player is being investigated for this.

 

[cyberman]

That's fab but it doesn't really matter.

When he posts on social media it isn't only seen in countries where such terminology is appropriate and when he agrees to abide by the social media standards layed out by the FA they aren't based on what's appropriate within Latin America.

By the standards that actually count in this instance, it's likely inappropriate.

So what happens when posts are made that doesn't offend English people but offends, say, Muslims?
If this cant just judge by whats acceptable in certain countries rule is applied?

 

[Lynty]

The state of affairs when a player is being investigated for this.

Investigating doesn't mean his guilty of anything. The FA have to show they have looked at it, regardless of the outcome.

 

[DoomSlayer]

The state of affairs when a player is being investigated for this.

It's only going to get worse as the European influence around the world starts to diminish even further in the long-term future. Their struggle to impose their own "civilised" social norms will become even harder and some extremist elements of such ideologies will probably try and cross a line at a certain point of time.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

It's only going to get worse as the European influence around the world starts to diminish even further in the long-term future. Their struggle to impose their own "civilised" social norms will become even harder and some extremist elements of such ideologies will probably try and cross a line at a certain point of time.

If we are talking about extreme right wing ideology then it's been rising for some time. They've crossed that line already

 

[RonaldoVII]

Clearly getting banned. Hopefully no more than 1 game.

 

[sullydnl]

So what happens when posts are made that doesn't offend English people but offends, say, Muslims?
If this cant just judge by whats acceptable in certain countries rule is applied?

If it contravenes the FA's guidelines on social media posts, it gets punished. I would assume/hope. I don't see why it wouldn't be? If it doesn't, it doesn't.

 

[Smores]

You can try to explain as civilly and as rationally as possible, but there's too many people with their heads in their asses. Too many people from certain geographic places believe they hold the moral high ground on what is socially acceptable, which is incredibly ironic, when you look at their heritage and history.

He's currently a representative of the PL and our club, they rightly define the standards. He'll have agreed to terms in regards to his social media and they won't have said "if it's fine in your culture it's okay".

No one's imposing anything on him beyond that. I'm sure he's free to do whatever he wants once that contractual relationship ends.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

For clarification, he shared a post with the comment, not posted the comment himself

 

[DoomSlayer]

If we are talking about extreme right wing ideology then it's been rising for some time. They've crossed that line already

No. I'm talking about any extremist ideology that believes it can only be their way, or the highway. There is a huge clash between polar opposite groups that want to establish what individualism should be, how it should exist and also what the morally right social norms should be, which oversee the already mentioned individualism. It's a total paradox of the modern civilisation, I don't see a good ending with such fractured societies in the future.