FA to investigate Edinson Cavani | This thread is taking a break

[Judge Red]

There wasn’t a complaint from the person he said it to, only social media shift stirrers, so all comparisons to Suarez are wide of the mark.

There might be a small ban but as long as we don’t wear t-shirts with him on, he can have Christmas off and we can move on.

 

[Cassidy]

That's fab but it doesn't really matter.

When he posts on social media it isn't only seen in countries where such terminology is appropriate and when he agrees to abide by the social media standards layed out by the FA they aren't based on what's appropriate within Latin America.

By the standards that actually count in this instance, it's likely inappropriate.

The terminology of saying someone is black is your native language isn't exactly inappropriate anywhere, is the key thing here, but I do take your point. I think this is more nuanced than you seem to realise.
And if these standards are going to be enforced then they need to make sure when players arrive they are made aware, which clearly wasn't the case here.

 

[Damien]

For clarification, he shared a post with the comment, not posted the comment himself

He shared a post, but added the comment to it. "Gracias negrito" was by him/his social media team.

 

[cyberman]

If it contravenes the FA's guidelines on social media posts, it gets punished. I would assume/hope. I don't see why it wouldn't be?

But my point is it would not seem to be offensive in England but if its offensive in other cultures then surely a ban is ridiculous? We cant just say context doesnt matter so not being insensitive in other cultures has to be a factor.
Say a German gets banned for celebrating Nazis yet Kane posts support for the men and women who commited genocide in India or Blooody Sunday under the guise of supporting the troops.
Do both deserve a ban?

 

[Suvvernmanc]

No, it doesn't.

For example, someone could dress up in blackface without any level of hate involved. It would still be racist and still be punished by the FA. Just as Bernardo Silva comparing a teammate to a racially-loaded cartoon character was punished by the FA. There was no intent on his part, or hatred involved and the context was friendly. But he still got punished because it's possible to say/do racist things through ignorance rather than through hatred. As a lot of the extended conversations on race in 2020 have made clear.

Intent matters but it isn't the be all and end all. In this case there was no intent on Cavani's part but he still shared something inappropriate with the world, which he then had to delete. Something that by the standards he works and operates in should be punished. That's the long and the short of it, really.

Well if someone says you cant have a laugh with black friends which I regularly do as they are comfortable with it, its not racism. Racism is defined by the context. Just a quick google search and I got this -
Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

The belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.

Basically, words that Cavani used cant be described as hateful or prejudiced, so therefore not at all racist. That's the be all and end of it.

 

[A-man]

I'm not sure I understand your post, who's said anything about Cavano's culture being 'savage'?

I was replying to this: " It would how ever be very typical of the FA to tell him [Cavani] his culture is savage and uncouth ".

The whole point is, that this was a discussion between two Uruguayans, if I have understood it correctly. Cavani wrote something that seems to be acceptable and even affectionate in their language and culture. If an English powerful organisation decides to punish Cavani for behaving in accordance with his culture, it can easily be seen as racist and colonial behavior from FA.


However he plays in England and it was not a private message, it was an open "conversation" which means FA absolutely have the right to say something about it. There are no easy rights or wrongs here. Personally I don't know where I stand here, but I think he should get away with a warning as it was clearly written in an affectionate way and not with the purpose to hurt someone.

 

[Hammondo]

Context is important, but so does the context that he wrote it on twitter which is a public platform.

Obviously in Argentina their culture is different but acting like he doesn't know the culture of many other countries, including the one he lives in, that this isn't deemed normally acceptable in public it won't be shocking if he gets a ban.

I don't think for a second he was being racist, but this is more than that.

 

[antohan]

I haven't seen anyone criticising Uruguay or Uruguayan culture.

You must have missed quite a few posts, there was a particularly bonkers one stating any reference to someone's skin colour was backwards and these should be stamped out globally. Agreeable as it may sound, it's cultural eugenics.

But in the UK it's not socially acceptable to casually use words like Negro or similar sounding words.

I lived there 15 years, I'm well aware of it and accept/agree he's done well by removing it and should just say he understands it's a sensitive issue, apologise if anyone was offended and get on with it.

What I'm bracing myself for is the press and the FA being knobends.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Whats the translation ?

There is no translation.

THIS is what English people fail to understand.

Not aiming this at you. But you can’t just work out what a word is in other languages.

 

[Hammondo]

Well if someone says you cant have a laugh with black friends which I regularly do as they are comfortable with it, its not racism. Racism is defined by the context. Just a quick google search and I got this -
Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

The belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.

Basically, words that Cavani used cant be described as hateful or prejudiced, so therefore not at all racist. That's the be all and end of it.

I agree, but part of the context is it being posted on twitter. Also it's not just a question of it being racist or not, but about not supporting others who would be.

 

[DoomSlayer]

Context is important, but so does the context that he wrote it on twitter which is a public platform.

Obviously in Argentina their culture is different but acting like he doesn't know the culture of many other countries, including the one he lives in, that this isn't deemed normally acceptable in public it won't be shocking if he gets a ban.

I don't think for a second he was being racist, but this is more than that.

In Argentina? Your lack of respect is clearly shown here, yet you dare take moral high ground on this subject. The irony with Western people and their behaviour never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Myrecks]

I haven't seen anyone criticising Uruguay or Uruguayan culture. That's not the issue here. Also, nobody is calling Cavani racist or suggesting he intended to racially abuse anyone.

It's very simple - in different cultures certain words and phrases have a different history and a different social perspective.

It seems clear that South American people commenting on this are unaminous that saying 'Negrito or Negro' is socially acceptable in South American culture. If that's the case then fine.

But in the UK it's not socially acceptable to casually use words like Negro or similar sounding words.

It's not about UK culture being better, or there being a problem with Uruguay's culture. It's simply a fact that Cavani is now in England and has been advised that using that word here will lead to issues.

It's not an attack on South America.
It's not PC gone mad.
It's not cancel culture.

Just a person adapting the customs of the new country he lives in.

Well that’s your point of view and a acceptable one, in my opinion. However quite a few posts I’ve read are definitely in the direction of: what is acceptable in South America is wrong and they are completely backward for thinking the way they do.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Context is important, but so does the context that he wrote it on twitter which is a public platform.

Obviously in Argentina their culture is different but acting like he doesn't know the culture of many other countries, including the one he lives in, that this isn't deemed normally acceptable in public it won't be shocking if he gets a ban.

I don't think for a second he was being racist, but this is more than that.

Argentina huh?

 

[Cassidy]

Well if someone says you cant have a laugh with black friends which I regularly do as they are comfortable with it, its not racism. Racism is defined by the context. Just a quick google search and I got this -
Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

The belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.

Basically, words that Cavani used cant be described as hateful or prejudiced, so therefore not at all racist. That's the be all and end of it.

Neither can the text book definition of the word Negro in the US, but you wouldn't use it. So its not just the word by the way.
Also I wouldn't rely on text book definitions made up by people who never experienced racism to define what it is.

Saying all that, Cavani didn't do much wrong, just pointing out your argument is entirely flawed

 

[Hammondo]

In Argentina? Your lack of respect is clearly shown here, yet you dare take moral high ground on this subject. The irony with Western people and their behaviour never ceases to amaze me.

Wtf are you talking about?

 

[pacifictheme]

Argentina huh?

Oh they're all the same down there!

 

[Hammondo]

Argentina huh?

Ahhh Uruguay.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

For clarification, he shared a post with the comment, not posted the comment himself

Nope.

Jesus. This thread.

 

[Chairman Steve]

Surely at this point, the club, the Premier League or even the FA are doing something like providing arriving foreign players heads-up information on stuff like this?

If the FA and the Premier League are so against racism, then why aren’t they educating them as soon as they arrive into the country about this? Instead of waiting for them to slip up then making an example of them? Surely there’s a system like what I’ve mentioned in place already otherwise what the feck.

 

[Sylar]

He shared a post, but added the comment to it. "Gracias negrito" was by him/his social media team.

Interesting thought
Could anything happen to him if it was his social media team or if that was the defence?

What if he does have a team that runs his account and his defence is the team (from his country) posted it, he was made aware and got it deleted

And not just this but to anybody in a similar situation (if something offensive was posted)
Would the punishment be towards who the social media belongs to or can the player say he punished who he hired?

 

[Hammondo]

Oh they're all the same down there!

Yes my mistake, Uruguay. My point still remains.

Their culture is different, but if you are posting on a public platform your own culture is not the only one that matters.

 

[Hammondo]

Oh they're all the same down there!

Uruguay!

 

[Cassidy]

Well that’s your point of view and a acceptable one, in my opinion. However quite a few posts I’ve read are definitely in the direction of: what is acceptable in South America is wrong and they are completely backward for thinking the way they do.

I don't believe that is the tone of the thread, although I have seen this said

 

[DoomSlayer]

Yes my mistake, Uruguay. My point still remains.

Their culture is different, but if you are posting on a public platform your own culture is not the only one that matters.

Yeah, small mistake. Who cares, Argentina, Uruguay, all the same, savage people with backwards culture.

 

[Hammondo]

In Argentina? Your lack of respect is clearly shown here, yet you dare take moral high ground on this subject. The irony with Western people and their behaviour never ceases to amaze me.

Uruguay*

My point still remains.

 

[Hammondo]

Yeah, small mistake. Who cares, Argentina, Uruguay, all the same, savage people with backwards culture.

I never said anything negative about their culture, that's a massive strawman.

 

[Cassidy]

Yeah, small mistake. Who cares, Argentina, Uruguay, all the same, savage people with backwards culture.

He never said or even intimated anything of the sort.

 

[Nero]

Worth remembering that 99% of footballers social media posts aren't actually posted by them, despite people constantly saying 'he liked x', 'he just followed y'.

It's usually some PR agency or at least someone acting on their behalf as part of their social media/branding team.

Is a player liable for something they haven't personally posted themselves? That's just a question in general, obviously I have no idea who was behind this specific Cavani post.

 

[Jotun]

I don't understand the cries of racism here. I really don't. For me racism is discrimination based on someone's race or skin color. There is no discrimination here. Referring to someone based on their skin color is not racist. How many times people say "white people sth" and there is no racism outrage. In fact we don't know if the person Cavani is speaking to is in fact black. Maybe his friend has black hair. I know little about their culture, but from what I could gather it's not a derogatory term. Just because it's vaguely similar to a derogative term in english is not racism.

There is no racism here, but there is cultural fascism at work and witch hunt on Cavani. And ofcourse media sensationalism. If UK wants to be a multicultural country it should be celebrating and embracing other cultures. Maybe it can learn something from them. Ofcourse, UK doesn't want other cultures, hence brexit, but I feel it's not brexiteers that are screeming racism here. All this is so confusing to me.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

He basically wrote the equivalent of "thanks mate", absolutely nothing in it. He could have easily written "gracias guacho", which means and communicates the same but the literal translation is "thanks orphan" and could be deemed offensive to orphans all across the world. We don't have a word for mate/matey (saying amigo/friend is more common in the tropics, not down here), we indistinctly use terms like guacho (orphan), papo (daddy), nene (kiddo), or the nickname, which in this case happened to be negrito.

That he is working in a country where PC has gone mad and beyond will only be too clear to him by now, seeing as he deleted the post. I would expect him to say something along the lines of being sorry if anyone was offended and move on swiftly, but knowing the English press they won't let go and it will start doing his head in. My hope is he knows full well they are off their rocker from all the way back in South Africa and the Suarez handball incident, he should easily work out he will never really "get it".

Thanks for that calm, detailed response.

Just to clarify something. A lot of the arguments on this thread seem to be around whether (1) he said something that isn't racist in his country/culture but is in the UK or (2) he said something that WHEN translated to English (which isn't always a perfect swap), is a racist term.

For example, someone said it literally means 'black face' and hence (as a term linked to the colour of the skin) is racist.

Is that a correct translation?

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Surely at this point, the club, the Premier League or even the FA are doing something like providing arriving foreign players heads-up information on stuff like this?

If the FA and the Premier League are so against racism, then why aren’t they educating them as soon as they arrive into the country about this? Instead of waiting for them to slip up then making an example of them? Surely there’s a system like what I’ve mentioned in place already otherwise what the feck.

Nobody slipped up here. Nothing wrong happened. The FA cannot educate someone when they’re the ones that need educating.

English people correcting the language of South Americans is peak colonialism. Their language is older. Their customs are older. Old white English men telling people of colour what offends them is disgusting.

Move along everyone for fcuks sake.

 

[Sky1981]

Worth remembering that 99% of footballers social media posts aren't actually posted by them, despite people constantly saying 'he liked x', 'he just followed y'.

It's usually some PR agency or at least someone acting on their behalf as part of their social media/branding team.

Is a player liable for something they haven't personally posted themselves? That's just a question in general, obviously I have no idea who was behind this specific Cavani post.

Does it matter? We're arguing on the issue whether that post is wrong or not. Doesnt matter who says it.

The grey area is in the substance of whether what he says is offensive or mot

 

[KirkDuyt]

Wow, this blew up. Who does he mean with Negrito? Or does he mean the shirt?

It's a bit silly of him, but definitely no ill intent.

 

[Nero]

Does it matter? We're arguing on the issue whether that post is wrong or not. Doesnt matter who says it.

The grey area is in the substance of whether what he says is offensive or mot

Maybe I'm not talking about what you're arguing about? I was raising a general question.

 

[Suvvernmanc]

Neither can the text book definition of the word Negro in the US, but you wouldn't use it. So its not just the word by the way.
Also I wouldn't rely on text book definitions made up by people who never experienced racism to define what it is.

Saying all that, Cavani didn't do much wrong, just pointing out your argument is entirely flawed

I get that about the word. Theres a time and place to use it. You wouldn't use it around black people in the wrong context, that would be stupid, but if a Spanish person says it to define the colour of coffee or a car colour then its wrong? The Spanish language is just different.
Un coche negro - A black car
Un coche negrito - A little black car.

Cavani and many others like Bernardo Silva have used it as it's normal to do so, and black people should not be offended when it's in the correct context.

 

[A-man]

Surely at this point, the club, the Premier League or even the FA are doing something like providing arriving foreign players heads-up information on stuff like this?

If the FA and the Premier League are so against racism, then why aren’t they educating them as soon as they arrive into the country about this? Instead of waiting for them to slip up then making an example of them? Surely there’s a system like what I’ve mentioned in place already otherwise what the feck.

Good point. Act educationally instead of punishing.

 

[antohan]

Argentina huh?

Potato, potatoe

 

[DoomSlayer]

I never said anything negative about their culture, that's a massive strawman.

Right, it's funny how you dismissed this by calling it just a mistake, whilst of course claiming that your point "still stands". The typical moral highground that I've highlighted since my first post in this thread.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Good point. Act educationally instead of punishing.

No. Stop telling people that their culture is wrong.

FFS. English people are almost always single language speakers. We’re just a backwards looking country. Our attitude to culture is so far behind the rest of the world.

“He said Negrito. That looks a little bit like the word we’re not allowed to say. He should not say that word.”

Stop. Translating. It’s of no value.

 

[sullydnl]

Well if someone says you cant have a laugh with black friends which I regularly do as they are comfortable with it, its not racism. Racism is defined by the context. Just a quick google search and I got this -
Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.

The belief that different races possess distinct characteristics, abilities, or qualities, especially so as to distinguish them as inferior or superior to one another.

Basically, words that Cavani used cant be described as hateful or prejudiced, so therefore not at all racist. That's the be all and end of it.

You can absolutely say inappropriate things to black friends you know won't take offence to it, if your friendship works that way.

If you say those inappropriate things on social media though, you are liable to face backlash and (depending on your job) direct punishment. Because at that point you aren't just saying it to your black friend, you're sharing it with the world. Which is what Cavani did.

Hell, even if you just say those things in a room containing black people you don't know, you may well get a negative reaction. For all the talk about context in terms of intent, context in terms of audience matters at least as much.

The idea that something you do/say can't be deemed racist if you didn't intend for it to be hateful is so at odds with the way the world works that it's remarkable for it to still be used as excuse in 2020, after all the discussion on race we've had this year. If you like you can go into the Blackface thread and argue that it isn't racist if people aren't doing it out of spite, see how that goes.

The reality is that Cavani publicly referred to someone's race in a way that almost certainly contravenes the guidelines he is required to follow as a premier league footballer. Arguments about culture and context might add nuance to the discussion but they don't change the fact that he has done something that will likely be deemed inappropriate and (rightly) result in punishment.