FA Youth Cup - Chelsea vs Manchester United

[Wazza4Gaffa]

Thing is Chelsea and City prioritise winning at this level which means taking the most physically gifted kids around who are basically men against boys at that level. Utd on the other hand prioritse actually getting promising players who are technically good and who can long term be turned into first team players. There’s a reason why we continue to produce the best players in the country despite not sweeping up the trophies at this level. To be honest I know which strategy matters most...

I think you and many others understate the level of players Chelsea are now producing. They even had more academy players play more minutes in the league than us last season! That possibility would've seemed crazy a few years ago the stereotype is slightly outdated. It remains to be seen whether they can continue to churn out first team players for themselves but we have gone through pretty barren spells ourselves until recent years with the likes of Lingard, Rashford, Greenwood etc.

@ChelseaYouth on Twitter:
"Chelsea used 35 players over the three previous #FAYouthCup Finals against Manchester City from 2015-17 and every single one of them has played professional football afterwards. Eight of them are full internationals already and 14 have played PL football; nobody is older than 24."

 

[Prodigal7]

Its the 'Rossi' problem. Fergie told him he would be a first teamer playing wide or slightly withdrawn.But the kid wanted to score goals and play up front centrally. I see the same issues with Shoretire. He wants to score and play centrally but he is too small/frail to do it, hence the move out to the wings. United really want him to develop there as they see him a shoe-in for a top winger, but it depends on what goes on in his head. If he adapts mentally, he will make it at United, if not he will unfortunately go the same way as Guiseppi.

I think it’s good that he’s flying under the radar more at the moment. Playing in a wide position can only improve him as a player right now, boosting his dribbling and one v one skills. It will also ground him and show him he has areas he needs to work on. Players themselves might not appreciate it immediately but this will be good for him in the long run whether he returns to a central position or not. I think the Bruno role in a diamond system would suit him well and maybe that’s the plan, who knows.

 

[AltiUn]

I think you and many others understate the level of players Chelsea are now producing. They even had more academy players play more minutes in the league than us last season! That possibility would've seemed crazy a few years ago the stereotype is slightly outdated. It remains to be seen whether they can continue to churn out first team players for themselves but we have gone through pretty barren spells ourselves until recent years with the likes of Lingard, Rashford, Greenwood etc.

@ChelseaYouth on Twitter:
"Chelsea used 35 players over the three previous #FAYouthCup Finals against Manchester City from 2015-17 and every single one of them has played professional football afterwards. Eight of them are full internationals already and 14 have played PL football; nobody is older than 24."

I think at this point everyone knows Chelsea produce quality players. Last night wasn't just due to them having good players though, they were incredibly well drilled, Ryan was just tacticlly bested, and it's hard to deny how brilliant their physicality was. Their academy is excellent, no denying that.

I won't be looking on too enviously because we're still producing a very good level of player ourself, I daresay the best level in years. Henderson, Rashford, Greenwood and Pogba are all CL calbibre players, if we could get just 1 or 2 of that level per generation then it gives us a great competitive edge due to the money saved acquiring that level of player from other clubs would cost.

 

[Prodigal7]

playing against Chelsea at youth can be a reality check for some of our fans and players as their weaknesses become more pronounced. I thought that although Elanga showed some nice skill he looked a little out of his depth, lack of awareness running into trouble a lot. Our attackers relied on quick interchanges rather than intelligently and patiently crafting chances. Helm was way out of his depth but as a 9 I guess we can say he was out of position. Fish crumbled a few times under such intensity but did some great defending too, great learning curve for him and I think if he can be a little more resillient mentally then he’ll have a future here.

Mengi was the best player on the pitch for me, the way he is rock solid and also brilliant at bringing the ball out of defence, nailed on first teamer in my book. Best defender I’ve seen at this level and a great leader too by the looks and sounds of it. Thought Devine did very well defensively but struggled going forward. Chelsea were bigger than us and better drilled, that was the first 30 minutes in a nutshell where they completely obliterated us across the park. GOAT defending from our centre backs and two midfielders kept us in it.

I expect this Chelsea team to physically steam roll city in the final, though city are better technically

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

I think you and many others understate the level of players Chelsea are now producing. They even had more academy players play more minutes in the league than us last season! That possibility would've seemed crazy a few years ago the stereotype is slightly outdated. It remains to be seen whether they can continue to churn out first team players for themselves but we have gone through pretty barren spells ourselves until recent years with the likes of Lingard, Rashford, Greenwood etc.

@ChelseaYouth on Twitter:
"Chelsea used 35 players over the three previous #FAYouthCup Finals against Manchester City from 2015-17 and every single one of them has played professional football afterwards. Eight of them are full internationals already and 14 have played PL football; nobody is older than 24."

And yet for all that hype they still haven’t produced a player anywhere near even the level of Rashford.

 

[JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo]

And yet for all that hype they still haven’t produced a player anywhere near even the level of Rashford.

Bingo

 

[Sean_RedDevil]

Hoogewerf played against Salford in the friendly so I supposed he still need to get back to full fitness.

But Hoogewerf was only out for maybe 2-3 weeks and not for 2-3 months therefore i haven't understand why he has played a friendly and he wasn't involved yesterday......okay he wasn't amazing since he arrived at us but to have a real striker on the pitch for at least the last 10 minutes would have been really helpful.

 

[Prodigal7]

I think you and many others understate the level of players Chelsea are now producing. They even had more academy players play more minutes in the league than us last season! That possibility would've seemed crazy a few years ago the stereotype is slightly outdated. It remains to be seen whether they can continue to churn out first team players for themselves but we have gone through pretty barren spells ourselves until recent years with the likes of Lingard, Rashford, Greenwood etc.

@ChelseaYouth on Twitter:
"Chelsea used 35 players over the three previous #FAYouthCup Finals against Manchester City from 2015-17 and every single one of them has played professional football afterwards. Eight of them are full internationals already and 14 have played PL football; nobody is older than 24."

The question has to be how many of those players are still playing professional football. The way those stats are worded is deliberately over indulgent. But yes, Chelsea's academy is doing well in that respect, better than a lot here give them credit for.

 

[jb8521]

Watching a lot of Shoretire through the age groups, I personally think he’s regressed a little since they’ve moved him out wide, it doesn’t suit his game, I presume it’s to do with it being a little less physical out on the wing when playing up.

I'd agree with that, I think he's better playing off a striker where he can get on the turn & head straight for goal, I don't think playing wide particularly suits his skill set

 

[Grande]

I've watched ALOT of Mengi and Mejbri the last 12 months. I watch every Under 23's game. Mengi looks closet to the first team. He had a great season last year.

Neither look 'exceptional' at this point though

Shortire still very early days. he belongs in the younger age bracket i dont watch the under 18s

Thanks for clarifying that, it doesn’t go without saying on this forum

I’ve only seen highlights from Shoretire and Mejbri. Shoretire I’ve liked the style of a lot, but it’s hard to evaluate a player who plays against players two to six years older all the time. It’s tempting, when he isn’t a physical specimen, to assume that the coaches know he is an exceptional talent. I wouldn’t know.

Mengi I’ve seen a bit more of. I don’t see how he is not exceptional like Scholes and Pogba were. As with Scholes, there is a question if his size will be a hindrance to become one of the absolute best in his preferred position, but to me he looks like that level of talent. Of course, Scholes always kept learning, developing and re-inventing himself. Even exceptional talents seldom have the carreer he’s had, so much has to pan out.

 

[khoazany]

But Hoogewerf was only out for maybe 2-3 weeks and not for 2-3 months therefore i haven't understand why he has played a friendly and he wasn't involved yesterday......okay he wasn't amazing since he arrived at us but to have a real striker on the pitch for at least the last 10 minutes would have been really helpful.

That's why I said he's likely not match fit. That friendly was an XI of whoever from us that are too old or not eligible for this game vs. a second string Salford. Purely for fitness purpose. You can't play a half fit player in such intense game. Also I suspect Emeran had a knock and changed Ryan's gameplan hence the weird Helm upfront thing.

 

[jb8521]

I'm comparing them to style and potential. I know Shoretire is playing over his age group and he is a good player and a good talent. I have never downplayed him, or his potential. If he ends up like Lingard, as I said, then that's a fantastic achievement. However, I don't see him in the Greenwood, Pogba, Morrison among others bracket. For me, he does not score or assist enough. Of course, he has the potential to do so more, but I don't see him doing it good enough to be a star. My comparison with Lingard is mostly that he keeps things ticking, is very good with the ball, and floats around but maybe not have the final ball. IMO U23 this season is a step too far for him. I think he has been underwhelming so far. That's not his fault, though. He's just not ready for that which few by his ages are.



I agree that it helps to see them live. I have seen most of the youth team players now live, but not very often. You do get a different perspective of watching football live though. I would say you can still get a pretty clear picture of who will make it and who will not. You can never say for certain, but you can't that by watching them live either. Scott McTominay is one player I never saw live and one player I have been wrong about. You make an interesting point, it's seldom United is wrong. Could be Shawcross, but it's hard to say that it was a disgrace. Maybe Michael Keane would be useful but in the end, we often get it right. But it's not like we were screaming that Keane wouldn't be sold.

Well if its goals & assists you want to judge it on then the last time he played anywhere near his age group when playing under 15 as an under 14 he scored nearly 70 goals & had a load of assists so he definitely has it in his locker. I agree that he hasn't been overly impressive for the u23s but then he's only played less than 180 minutes so it's not as if he's really had the time to adapt to the new level & even if it takes him a year to adapt he'll still be ahead of most players developmentally. I think the best way of judging where he is compared to his peers for now will be how he does when he plays for the u18s in the youth cup this season & next

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Thought we were poor..To put it into perspective though, Greenwood, Pellestri and Diallo are all AGE eligible for that team. Obviously not all eligible last night for different reasons, but theres some real talent that didnt play last night that would be young enough to be eligible.

Mengi
Greenwood
Diallo
Pellestri
Elanga

Are all the same year group, id struggle to find any 5 from any one club in the world that id take ahead of them 5 in that Sept 2001 to Sept 2002 year group.

This!

Just as well we aren’t a win at all costs youth programme

 

[Hester_manc]

McCann did okay against Chelsea. I was disappointed with most other United players. I did not see anyone that I thought could play for the first team soon.

 

[Mickson]

Well if its goals & assists you want to judge it on then the last time he played anywhere near his age group when playing under 15 as an under 14 he scored nearly 70 goals & had a load of assists so he definitely has it in his locker. I agree that he hasn't been overly impressive for the u23s but then he's only played less than 180 minutes so it's not as if he's really had the time to adapt to the new level & even if it takes him a year to adapt he'll still be ahead of most players developmentally. I think the best way of judging where he is compared to his peers for now will be how he does when he plays for the u18s in the youth cup this season & next

Fair enough. I must say that I haven't heard any loud critics against Shola, so I was a bit surprised to hear that. I guess we will see in the future regarding his goals and assists.

 

[Mr. MUJAC]

I think you and many others understate the level of players Chelsea are now producing. They even had more academy players play more minutes in the league than us last season! That possibility would've seemed crazy a few years ago the stereotype is slightly outdated. It remains to be seen whether they can continue to churn out first team players for themselves but we have gone through pretty barren spells ourselves until recent years with the likes of Lingard, Rashford, Greenwood etc.

@ChelseaYouth on Twitter:
"Chelsea used 35 players over the three previous #FAYouthCup Finals against Manchester City from 2015-17 and every single one of them has played professional football afterwards. Eight of them are full internationals already and 14 have played PL football; nobody is older than 24."

I think you will find we have been pretty consistent over the last decade given we have had a terrible record in the FA Youth Cup during that time.

In the 20 odd games we won the competition in 2010/11 we have had 31 players reach the first team with 16 (with my records) making it to full international level.

So while I agree Chelsea have been exceptional over the last 7/8 years, and we need to improve in this area without a doubt, players are still reaching the first team at a rate of 3/4 per season.

I wonder whether we are competitive enough at youth level...a development focus is very important up to 16, but once they reach U/18's I think we need to ramp things up.

 

[Prodigal7]

I think you will find we have been pretty consistent over the last decade given we have had a terrible record in the FA Youth Cup during that time.

In the 20 odd games we won the competition in 2010/11 we have had 31 players reach the first team with 15 (with my records) making it to full international level.

So while I agree Chelsea have been exceptional over the last 7/8 years, and we need to improve in this area without a doubt, players are still reaching the first team at a rate of 3/4 per season.

I wonder whether we are competitive enough at youth level...a development focus is very important up to 16, but once they reach U/18's I think we need to ramp things up.

100% agree. The Chelsea coach made a very good point when he said that players need to come into a first team with a winning mentality. As talented as some of our players are like Rashford, Greenwood etc I really don’t see a winning mentality in them at the moment. Their body language can be really negative and lazy, especially rashford.

 

[Drainy]

Their body language can be really negative and lazy, especially rashford.

talking absolute shit

 

[Prodigal7]

talking absolute shit

Have you actually watched Rashford since Covid? Leipzig aside he spends half of his time throwing his arms in the air and sulking. He looked like an unwilling passenger during the lockdown period winning run last season and hasn't shown much enthusiasm this season until the Leipzig game.

 

[JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo]

Have you actually watched Rashford since Covid? Leipzig aside he spends half of his time throwing his arms in the air and sulking. He looked like an unwilling passenger during the lockdown period winning run last season and hasn't shown much enthusiasm this season until the Leipzig game.

Not sure if football psychology is for you

 

[AltiUn]

Have you actually watched Rashford since Covid? Leipzig aside he spends half of his time throwing his arms in the air and sulking. He looked like an unwilling passenger during the lockdown period winning run last season and hasn't shown much enthusiasm this season until the Leipzig game.

I think you're very bad at reading body language.

 

[Drainy]

Have you actually watched Rashford since Covid? Leipzig aside he spends half of his time throwing his arms in the air and sulking. He looked like an unwilling passenger during the lockdown period winning run last season and hasn't shown much enthusiasm this season until the Leipzig game.

The guy is feeling his way back from a double stress fracture of his back.

 

[limerickcitykid]

To anyone who watched their first Youth game yesterday and now thinks we are vastly inferior to other academies, don't fret. This was a unique game where we could only use player registered last season. We have loaned out and promoted so many of last years team that we were lucky to have been so competitive.

We haven’t loaned out or promoted any of last years FAYC squads. The only player we’ve lost from it was Deji Sotona. Chelsea were missing more than that.

 

[limerickcitykid]

I loved Rashford from the first time i saw him live when he banged a free kick in against Spurs at White Hart Lane in the FA Youth Cup 5 years ago

You could see he was a top talent! tbh

so called youth experts and fans at the time were still 'Marcus who?' (McTominay was in that squad too)

They were still all raving about Fosu fecking Mensah!

So called “youth experts” were talking about Rashford in this very forum at 14. Seemingly 4 years before you loved him.

Imagine being so righteous

 

[mu4c_20le]

Have you actually watched Rashford since Covid? Leipzig aside he spends half of his time throwing his arms in the air and sulking. He looked like an unwilling passenger during the lockdown period winning run last season and hasn't shown much enthusiasm this season until the Leipzig game.

no white text? Was so certain this was some kind of ronnie/messi joke

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Have you actually watched Rashford since Covid? Leipzig aside he spends half of his time throwing his arms in the air and sulking. He looked like an unwilling passenger during the lockdown period winning run last season and hasn't shown much enthusiasm this season until the Leipzig game.

I’ll reiterate what has been said.

Absolute shite!

 

[Drainy]

So called “youth experts” were talking about Rashford in this very forum at 14. Seemingly 4 years before you loved him.

Imagine being so righteous

yeah, there was talk of Rashford a long time before he appeared for u18s. Similar buzz to Shoretire.

I remember the England Victory Shield match where he came on as a sub that everyone was watching to get a glimpse of him. Funny that he cites that match as the making of him, as he was so nervous that he reflected on it after the game and says that his why he overcame his nerves. What a loser! Clearly not a determined, dedicated professional at all.

 

[GueRed]

So called “youth experts” were talking about Rashford in this very forum at 14. Seemingly 4 years before you loved him.

Imagine being so righteous

yeah they were 'talking' about him but what im saying is he flew under the hype radar in 2015

Callum Gribbin, Fosu fecking Mensah, Tuanzabe even Ro Shaun Williams were getting more hype by internet reds than Rashers

the disrespect Rashford gets even today is baffling

 

[0le]

It was a youth game. Get over it and move on.

 

[Drainy]

yeah they were 'talking' about him but what im saying is he flew under the hype radar in 2015

A lot of the hype quietened when he got promoted to u18s and didn't adapt immediately, but was still highly regarded - his explosion in the first team was definitely not expected, probably as much by himself as anyone at the time, but he's never looked back.

 

[PS18]

100% agree. The Chelsea coach made a very good point when he said that players need to come into a first team with a winning mentality. As talented as some of our players are like Rashford, Greenwood etc I really don’t see a winning mentality in them at the moment. Their body language can be really negative and lazy, especially rashford.

might be the worst post this forum has ever seen (only rivalled by the one shortly after it)

 

[Prodigal7]

might be the worst post this forum has ever seen (only rivalled by the one shortly after it)

I'm not here to make popular opinions and am amazed at how deluded a lot of our fans are. Rashford has improved a lot recently but it's been plainly obvious before the last 2 matches that he and a lot of other players aren't putting 100% into their performances.

 

[JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo]

I'm not here to make popular opinions and am amazed at how deluded a lot of our fans are. Rashford has improved a lot recently but it's been plainly obvious before the last 2 matches that he and a lot of other players aren't putting 100% into their performances.

That is absolutely ridiculous. He literally broke his back for the team. It blows my mind how fickle the fan base can be.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Watched the final. City won 3-2. Great game. City had the better attackers skill wise with Mcatee and Palmer. Hodge was classy for City as the 6. Doyle was decent too. Chelsea’s best attacker was Livramento again. He’s a talent but a team needs more in attack than their right back.

 

[Adnan]

Watched the final. City won 3-2. Great game. City had the better attackers skill wise with Mcatee and Palmer. Hodge was classy for City as the 6. Doyle was decent too. Chelsea’s best attacker was Livramento again. He’s a talent but a team needs more in attack than their right back.

City have a very good team but I feel we can match them for quality and we even beat them away from home last season. But I do have doubts about Neil Ryan as a coach and have felt for a while that he's limited in how he sets up the team. City have Carlos Vicens who they brought to the club after he impressed in Spain as a academy director and has pedigree in the role. I know Neil's Dad, Jimmy Ryan was Fergie's assistant at the club so I hope there isn't any nepotism at play.

 

[Footy van de Geek]

Watched the final. City won 3-2. Great game. City had the better attackers skill wise with Mcatee and Palmer. Hodge was classy for City as the 6. Doyle was decent too. Chelsea’s best attacker was Livramento again. He’s a talent but a team needs more in attack than their right back.

There's a very good chance that Hodge will be the next Grealish or Rice situation for Ireland.

 

[stealthy]

City have a very good team but I feel we can match them for quality and we even beat them away from home last season. But I do have doubts about Neil Ryan as a coach and have felt for a while that he's limited in how he sets up the team. City have Carlos Vicens who they brought to the club after he impressed in Spain as a academy director and has pedigree in the role. I know Neil's Dad, Jimmy Ryan was Fergie's assistant at the club so I hope there isn't any nepotism at play.

From what I can gather City focus on technical and tactical development from a very young age as it can be clearly seen the style of high risk playing out from the back was very natural against the Chelsea press. United focus less on those things and allow more freedom and self learning with the view it’s about individuals not teams. I don’t believe either academy is focused primarily on winning. Who knows which is right approach United still top dogs for producing first team players, be interesting to see where both groups of these players are in 5 years and judge it then. Only slight worry am I right in my observation City have more local lads who have come through from early ages?

 

[Adnan]

From what I can gather City focus on technical and tactical development from a very young age as it can be clearly seen the style of high risk playing out from the back was very natural against the Chelsea press. United focus less on those things and allow more freedom and self learning with the view it’s about individuals not teams. I don’t believe either academy is focused primarily on winning. Who knows which is right approach United still top dogs for producing first team players, be interesting to see where both groups of these players are in 5 years and judge it then. Only slight worry am I right in my observation City have more local lads who have come through from early ages?

I think we'll give more opportunities to our youth than City will.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I think we'll give more opportunities to our youth than City will.

As long as Pep's around, that's guaranteed.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

City have a very good team but I feel we can match them for quality and we even beat them away from home last season. But I do have doubts about Neil Ryan as a coach and have felt for a while that he's limited in how he sets up the team. City have Carlos Vicens who they brought to the club after he impressed in Spain as a academy director and has pedigree in the role. I know Neil's Dad, Jimmy Ryan was Fergie's assistant at the club so I hope there isn't any nepotism at play.

I think this is a bit of wishful thinking. A league 2 team can beat a PL team on a given day. In the u18 league last season City got 42 points and United 23. There's a gulf of difference in quality in my opinion when you look at the squads. That's not to say that United aren't better at bringing through the few talented ones in their squad into their own first team but I do think that United youth watchers over rate quite heavily a lot of our youngsters.

If you look at the number of City and Chelsea players that feature for England, just from this group of players that featured in this FA Youth Cup campaign both sides have hoarded the best domestic players

Chelsea

Livramento
Lawrence
Colwill
Bate
Peart-Harris
Anjorin
Humphreys
Simons
Vale
Soonsup-Bell

City

Harwood-Bellis
Egan-Riley
Luke Mbete-Tabu
Doyle
Delap
McAtee
Rogers
Knight
Robertson
Hodge

Sadly these days its a big achievement if United can get 2 or 3 from a group in the England set-up. I do think it's a bit naive to put the domination of these two sides simply down to coaching.

There's a very good chance that Hodge will be the next Grealish or Rice situation for Ireland.

Hodge is a bit different to those two players as he already has 11 caps for England. It wouldn't be a big surprise if he started playing for England again.