Falklands

[peterstorey]

He does this every so many pages, gets proven that he's wrong, stays out for a while then says it again.

Nothing about any 'rights' of a bunch of colonists every gets gets 'proven' which is why it's necessary to state the obvious every now and again.

 

[Ray Peterson]

I guess when he's finished with the Falklands, Sean Penn will be lobbying for all Americans that can trace their ancestry back to foreign climes to leave and let the Native Americans regain control?

 

[Gambit]

Nothing about any 'rights' of a bunch of colonists every gets gets 'proven' which is why it's necessary to state the obvious every now and again.

Your right, time to kick the Argentineans out. Your obvious is ill-informed.

 

[NJ1979]

Nothing about any 'rights' of a bunch of colonists every gets gets 'proven' which is why it's necessary to state the obvious every now and again.

The Argentines are a "bunch of colonists" as well, but you keep skirting round that fact.

 

[Frosty]

Roger Waters says Falkland Islands are Argentinian in reported comments

The Falkland Islands should belong to Argentina, the former Pink Floyd bass player Roger Waters is reported as saying in a television interview to be aired in Chile.

Waters has arrived in South America for a major concert tour just as tensions between Argentina and Britain over the islands reach their highest pitch since the 1982 Falklands war. Argentina claims the British-held islands as its own, calling them Las Malvinas.

"Roger Waters was categorical: Las Malvinas belong to Argentina," a journalist for the Chilean TVN state channel announced on his Twitter account after getting an exclusive interview with the rock star on Tuesday. The show airs on Wednesday night on TVN's 24hs news show.

"I am as ashamed as I possibly could be of our colonial past," Waters is reported to have said to TVN journalist Amaro Gómez-Pablos. When asked if the islands are British or Argentinian, Waters reportedly replied: "I think they should be Argentinian."

In a separate press conference in Chile the rock star was more cautious regarding the Falklands dispute, not saying directly who should own them. "Clearly there needs to be a solution to the problem of the varying claims [to the islands] – the claims are so convoluted and so old, going back as they do to the 17th century. It's not a simple situation."

The rock star, who has legions of fans in Argentina, addressed the Falklands dispute in Pink Floyd's 1983 concept album The Final Cut in which the lyrics of the first track say: "Oh Maggie, Maggie, what have we done?" – an apparent reference to Margaret Thatcher's order to sink the Argentinian battleship Belgrano, killing 368 Argentinian sailors.

"My view is that certainly it saved Margaret Thatcher's political career at the time at the cost of a great many Argentine and British lives, which disgusted me then and still does now. I was never a huge fan of Margaret Thatcher," Waters told the press conference in Chile.

Waters arrived on the heels of the American actor Sean Penn, who sparked controversy two weeks ago when he lambasted Britain for what he termed "ludicrous and archaic colonialism" in the Falklands after meeting with President Kirchner in his role as special ambassador for Haiti.

The Argentinian government on Tuesday instructed the country's 20 largest companies to stop importing British products. In a nationally televised speech a day earlier, Argentina's president Cristina Kirchner declared the islands "one of the last remaining colonialist enclaves in the world".

The industry minister Débora Giorgi has instructed companies to replace British imports with alternatives from other countries. Argentina imported products worth an estimated £400m from Britain in 2011.

The virtual import embargo came a day after two British cruise liners were turned away from the Argentine southern tourist port of Ushuaia under a new law in the province of Tierra del Fuego prohibiting all UK-flagged ships from docking there.

After playing in Chile, Waters arrives in Buenos Aires for nine sold-out shows at the River Plate football stadium that begin next Wednesday. Waters has sold more than 370,000 tickets for the Buenos Aires leg of his The Wall Live tour in South America. Press reports estimate a gross revenue of £19m for the Buenos Aires shows alone.

Roger Waters says Falkland Islands are Argentinian in reported comments | UK news | guardian.co.uk

I think that this "problem" will go away if oil rights are shared. That's what the end-game appears to be.

 

[Wibble]

Surely it is in the interests of both sides to come to some deal because I assume the UK needs somewhere to land the oil or gas or pengions or whatever. Since the economic multipliers of a less than 50/50 cut of revenue combined with an oil industry will boost the Argentinian economy. Win - win I'd say.

 

[evra]

I really don't see what we have to gain from entering into negotiations with the Argentinians.

 

[Gambit]

I really don't see what we have to gain from entering into negotiations with the Argentinians.

Because one day the Argentineans will be able to take them by force, it's an untenable situation to go on forever, by talking to them now we may be able to secure the future of the island and it's inhabitants.

 

[Team Brian GB]

The Argentines are a "bunch of colonists" as well, but you keep skirting round that fact.

Indeed, their claim to Patagonia is as strong as our claim to most of East Africa was.

 

[evra]

Because one day the Argentineans will be able to take them by force, it's an untenable situation to go on forever, by talking to them now we may be able to secure the future of the island and it's inhabitants.

Where do you get that idea from? Their military capabilities have hardly moved on from the last time they surrendered, we have invested fortunes in ours comparatively. In terms of the economic prospects of Argentina I can't see them having significant amounts to spend on arms in the future in order to bridge the enormous gap.

 

[Team Brian GB]

Because one day the Argentineans will be able to take them by force, it's an untenable situation to go on forever, by talking to them now we may be able to secure the future of the island and it's inhabitants.

And what day is that? The British military is one of the most advanced in the world - if the Argentines could not defend the islands when they had over 10,000 men dug in and we had to sail 8,000 miles to get there then how are they going to conquer them when since then we have frigrates and destroyers down there, an RAF squadron and a battalion of the British Army?

Our military capabilities technologically wise since then has grown substantially whilst theirs has gone sideways - the Falklands War was the first technological war as we know it and since then we have ran Iraq out of Kuwait, conquered Iraq, ran the Serbians out of Kosovo and conquered Afghanistan with the loss of less personnel than the Argentines lost in the Falklands - the difference in capability between us is the early 21st century equivalent of Rorke's Drift.

This is without mentioning our surveillance capabilities - Argentina couldn't move a convoy of staff cars within 100 miles of their naval bases without British satellites monitoring them and GCHQ listening in on their communications.

 

[WeasteDevil]

There was a peice on the BBC on the military context then and now.

BBC News - Could Britain still defend the Falklands?

They are going against international trade now, pressurising companies on who they can legally trade with or not is going beyond the acceptable!

BBC News - Falklands dispute: Argentina 'urges UK import ban'

 

[Team Brian GB]

There was a peice on the BBC on the military context then and now.

BBC News - Could Britain still defend the Falklands?

They are going against international trade now, pressurising companies on who they can legally trade with or not is going beyond the acceptable!

BBC News - Falklands dispute: Argentina 'urges UK import ban'

As I have mentioned before this is a major benefit of membership of the European Union, in the worst case scenario Argentina would get sanctions through UNASUR which in itself is an impossibility but even hypothetically the EU would route all UK trade with affected areas through other EU countries as they would never allow one of their members to be hit in such a way.

But what is laughable about such a strategy is that Argentina would have far more to lose than Britain would - as much as South America supports them, if their own trade relations with Europe were dragged into play then watch how quickly that support vanishes.

 

[Gambit]

Where do you get that idea from?

And what day is that?

I am fully aware of our military power and capabilities, and comparisons. I am talking about some day in the future, inevitably Argentina will be able to build up some form of force that would make defending the islands not worth it if they decided to invade again. If we could remove the sovereignty stance out of the debate and open up discussions to get them trading together we can gaurantee the future of the islands and it's inhabitants whilst re-establishing trade with Argentina and the other south American countries in a more friendly ennvironment.

 

[Gambit]

We all know really this has feck all to do with the islands and it's more about the oil.

 

[evra]

I am fully aware of our military power and capabilities, and comparisons. I am talking about some day in the future, inevitably Argentina will be able to build up some form of force that would make defending the islands not worth it if they decided to invade again. If we could remove the sovereignty stance out of the debate and open up discussions to get them trading together we can gaurantee the future of the islands and it's inhabitants whilst re-establishing trade with Argentina and the other south American countries in a more friendly ennvironment.

I don't see that as inevitable at all. Think of it from Argentina's perspective; they would have to consider themselves in a position to win a battle with one of the most advanced and powerful militaries in the world, it's never going to happen.

Their best bet is to continue to enlist the services of poorly educated celebrities, Lord knows the weight their lofty opinions carry in this ridiculous world.

 

[Gambit]

Their best bet is to get all of South America unified to pressure us.

 

[Team Brian GB]

I am fully aware of our military power and capabilities, and comparisons. I am talking about some day in the future, inevitably Argentina will be able to build up some form of force that would make defending the islands not worth it if they decided to invade again. If we could remove the sovereignty stance out of the debate and open up discussions to get them trading together we can gaurantee the future of the islands and it's inhabitants whilst re-establishing trade with Argentina and the other south American countries in a more friendly ennvironment.

How is it inevitable? On the contrary it is not from inevitable that they will never be able to - the UK spends about 2.3% of GDP on defence and our economy is five times larger than Argentina's but even if they spent 10% of GDP on defence which is unsustainable they do not have the technical capabilities in their universities, research centres and defence contractors to come up with the sophistication of military procurement that we do which in many areas far surpasses the Americans.

The simple fact of the matter is the Ministry of Defence maintains a satellite network dedicated to the military which cost more to build and launch than Argentina's entire military cost for the last two years which can monitor on-the-ground movement across Argentina and if we push the panic button we can with the use of island hopping and refuelling planes send to RAF Mount Pleasant and RAF Ascension Island over 200 Tornado GR4s and Eurofighters within 36-48 hours.

Something absolute dramatic would have to happen for the UK to be in a position where it could not defend the Falklands with conventional means is before we mention that Argentina has spent much of the last century in the middle income trap.

 

[Team Brian GB]

Their best bet is to get all of South America unified to pressure us.

Pressure us how exactly? Is Brazil that is just about (at a stretch) emerging as a developed country going to risk its trade relations with the United Kingdom - the financial capital of the world - and by extension the European Union because Argentina fancies some islands four hundred miles off its coast? I doubt it somewhat.

 

[rednev]

Roger Waters says Falkland Islands are Argentinian in reported comments | UK news | guardian.co.uk

I think that this "problem" will go away if oil rights are shared. That's what the end-game appears to be.

To share oil rights would be to recognise the legitimately of Argentina's claim.

I am fully aware of our military power and capabilities, and comparisons. I am talking about some day in the future, inevitably Argentina will be able to build up some form of force that would make defending the islands not worth it if they decided to invade again. If we could remove the sovereignty stance out of the debate and open up discussions to get them trading together we can gaurantee the future of the islands and it's inhabitants whilst re-establishing trade with Argentina and the other south American countries in a more friendly ennvironment.

Firstly, Argentina will not be in any position to take control of the territory in any of our lifetimes. Even if they could take control militarily and defend any counter attack from Britain (which they could not), such a move would ostracise them from the international community. Countries can't just go around invading the territories of other countries in order to claim them as their own - it would be in blatant violation of international law, for a start. Britain could force sanctions on them that would ruin their economy. Remember that Britain has the support of the European Union when it comes to its sovereignty over the Falklands. It's even mentioned in the Treaty of Lisbon.

And secondly, the sovereignty issue can't be removed by an agreement on oil sharing. Argentina claims the Islands as their sovereign territory, and they're not going to give up that claim in return for cash. What they want is the impossible.

 

[rednev]

They are going against international trade now, pressurising companies on who they can legally trade with or not is going beyond the acceptable!

BBC News - Falklands dispute: Argentina 'urges UK import ban'

That should not be tolerated.

 

[Gambit]

To share oil rights would be to recognise the legitimately of Argentina's claim.



Firstly, Argentina will not be in any position to take control of the territory in any of our lifetimes. Even if they could take control militarily and defend any counter attack from Britain (which they could not), such a move would ostracise them from the international community. Countries can't just go around invading the territories of other countries in order to claim them as their own - it would be in blatant violation of international law, for a start. Britain could force sanctions on them that would ruin their economy. Remember that Britain has the support of the European Union when it comes to its sovereignty over the Falklands. It's even mentioned in the Treaty of Lisbon.

And secondly, the sovereignty issue can't be removed by an agreement on oil sharing. Argentina claims the Islands as their sovereign territory, and they're not going to give up that claim in return for cash. What they want is the impossible.

Never said it would happen in our lifetime and secondly countries have given up their sovereign claims for cash before.

 

[rednev]

Never said it would happen in our lifetime and secondly countries have given up their sovereign claims for cash before.

For Argentina it's all about national pride. Even if a British offer was extremely generous, giving up their claim of sovereignty over the Malvinas would be a guaranteed election-loser for the governing party.

 

[Gambit]

For Argentina it's all about national pride. Even if a British offer was extremely generous, giving up their claim of sovereignty over the Malvinas would be a guaranteed election-loser for the governing party.

I know but tehy could work to change the peoples view and in doing so help their ecnomy out to such a huge extent. I know I'm living in cuckoo land, it's the only way I can see everyone coming out a winner and the Argentinean powers that be are playing a stupid game right now. I know we're never going to stop defending the islands (nor should we) and what we need is to take it to the UN and get the Falklands set up as it's own soveriegn state that is under our protectorate but the islanders do need the Argentineans as well for trade.

 

[mjs020294]

Far too much is being made about the oil. Its not even known how much oil is in the reverses yet. Then you have the massive risk and expense of drilling in deep inhospitable waters. I doubt the oil down there will be that viable until the cost per barrel gets very high.

 

[solvista]

what do you care? i dont care, you shouldnt too

this are the kind of things that makes polititian careers blossom and poor people die

for over what?

let's supose there are gazillions of barrels of oil, so? do you think any of that money will go to your pockets?

it wont, it will go to the already megabillionaires that will be even richer

if the people of every country showed their leaders they don't want to die just to make some rich guy richer -and that's what the wars are fought for- we could be a happy world

You're right. I shouldn't care. I've only been there once, and it was a cold and miserable experience. The penguins are cute though. I think maybe they're worth fighting for.

Truth is I do care. I'm not entirely sure why, there are perhaps many small reasons that add up to a big one. It's a matter of pride in the end I suppose, and I think that matters.

 

[solvista]

For Argentina it's all about national pride. Even if a British offer was extremely generous, giving up their claim of sovereignty over the Malvinas would be a guaranteed election-loser for the governing party.

They gave it to us before to clear a couple of debts in the City of London. Why not for the money again?

 

[Marcosdeto]

You're right. I shouldn't care. I've only been there once, and it was a cold and miserable experience. The penguins are cute though. I think maybe they're worth fighting for.

Truth is I do care. I'm not entirely sure why, there are perhaps many small reasons that add up to a big one. It's a matter of pride in the end I suppose, and I think that matters.

i know its mostly about pride mate

but rest assured that england doesnt need to beat the shit out of us again to be proud, you've already done your share of good things for the world

another war wont add another bit of pride and will only leave dead persons and pain

and as i said before, keep the islands

lets just live in peace

 

[evra]

i know its mostly about pride mate

but rest assured that england doesnt need to beat the shit out of us again to be proud, you've already done your share of good things for the world

another war wont add another bit of pride and will only leave dead persons and pain

and as i said before, keep the islands

lets just live in peace

Very good of you Marcos, I'll inform the PM of your decision.

 

[Marcosdeto]

Very good of you Marcos, I'll inform the PM of your decision.

do it! and if he wants me to visit him and repeat that same sentence, i'll be glad too

only need a first ticket round trip and a suite at the Four Seasons

 

[Team Brian GB]

do it! and if he wants me to visit him and repeat that same sentence, i'll be glad too

only need a first ticket round trip and a suite at the Four Seasons

You'd prefer The Ritz or The Savoy - better hotels in better locations.

 

[Marcosdeto]

in order to keep peace between our two countries, i'm prepared to settle for the four seasons

ok the Savoy, loved the foyer last time i was in london

 

[solvista]

in order to keep peace between our two countries, i'm prepared to settle for the four seasons

ok the Savoy, loved the foyer last time i was in london

How would a Spanish speaker pronounce that word without giggling?

 

[Marcosdeto]

How would a Spanish speaker pronounce that word without giggling?

a spaniard will laugh his ass off

an argie not so much, it means nothing for us, we say "coger"

 

[Kaos]

So what would it be then? After Argentina takes control of the territory against the wishes of its inhabitants...forcibly remove the islanders from their homes? Occupy the islands against their wishes and keep them at gunpoint as they go about their lives? Ship in thousands of Argentinian citizens to politically and culturally overpower the islanders?

Those are the three options if you believe the islands should be handed over to Argentina against the wishes of the people.

It wasnt a serious answer. I'm just a fan of both Sean Penn's acting and his philanthropic work.

I'm not even going to pretend to know anything about Las Malvinas before giving an opinion on it.

 

[evra]

It wasnt a serious answer. I'm just a fan of both Sean Penn's acting and his philanthropic work.

I'm not even going to pretend to know anything about Las Malvinas before giving an opinion on it.

If only Sean Penn had been so prudent.....

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Nothing about any 'rights' of a bunch of colonists every gets gets 'proven' which is why it's necessary to state the obvious every now and again.

Says a man from 8000 miles away. Join the EDL and get it over with (go home you people I don't want to be where you are).

I fecking hate this shit. It always brings out the worst in people. We can't force the islanders off the island against their wishes and really no one else’s opinion counts.

It becomes about how far the Argentinean govt pushes and how far we over-react, it never ends well and I can't believe any good can come from any of it.

 

[Marcosdeto]

Says a man from 8000 miles away. Join the EDL and get it over with (go home you people I don't want to be where you are).

I fecking hate this shit. It always brings out the worst in people. We can't force the islanders off the island against their wishes and really no one else’s opinion counts.

It becomes about how far the Argentinean govt pushes and how far we over-react, it never ends well and I can't believe any good can come from any of it.

i agree with everything you said

what can defuse things is if the british goverment agrees on starting "talks"

that will be a moral victory for our president and "talks" cat take centuries

 

[Gambit]

i agree with everything you said

what can defuse things is if the british goverment agrees on starting "talks"

that will be a moral victory for our president and "talks" cat take centuries

Then whilst these talks are going on, you Marcos our secret weapon. start spreading dissent and change the zeitgeist to the Falklands should belong to themselves. I see your plan now, masterful Marcos, masterful.

 

[Marcosdeto]

Then whilst these talks are going on, you Marcos our secret weapon. start spreading dissent and change the zeitgeist to the Falklands should belong to themselves. I see your plan now, masterful Marcos, masterful.

hehe

i'm a genius

on the other hand, you can print pictures of falkland girls and post them in buenos aires billboards

that will lower the argie enthusiasm