Aye, this they did receive a similar tonking from Bayern in the CL a few seasons back and did well to rebuild with a few astute (albeit expensive) signings, no small task given how Xavi had to be phased out of the side gradually. Do think they have a relative tougher rebuilding task on their hands this time given the extent to which they might need to improve/rehaul their midfield personnel and dynamics.
FC Barcelona 2016/2017
- Thread starter Adisa
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
We just need to get a new manager, and he has to be an adept of fluid football. What happened with PSG was the failure of man marking against fast and technical players, much like it was for Bayern in the first 20 mins. on Camp Nou. When you play man-marking and you do not have defensively capable players it can get ugly every single time one player loses his marking. Barca players did not pressurized PSG players on the run because they weren't allowed to vacate their position to do so.
I saw Jordi Alba staying next to Meunier when the action was developing on the opposide area of the pitch. Why do that, why not move inside, as LCM in those moments, and allow Iniesta to stay closer to Busquets? Maybe we wouldn't have been so open in the middle of the park.
Just bad tactics, straight from the 1990s.
I saw Jordi Alba staying next to Meunier when the action was developing on the opposide area of the pitch. Why do that, why not move inside, as LCM in those moments, and allow Iniesta to stay closer to Busquets? Maybe we wouldn't have been so open in the middle of the park.
Just bad tactics, straight from the 1990s.
They've just been really poor with bringing the right players in - they're still a top team and I can see them comfortably winning the return leg (whether they can win 4-0 or more is to be seen)
My least favourite player of all time is Busquets but he has always been class so you have to acknowledge that. Finally I think the tie has come that he should be phased out as a) Enrique's style surely more suits someone more dynamic/defensive and b) he is inevitably getting towards the twilight years of his career.
My least favourite player of all time is Busquets but he has always been class so you have to acknowledge that. Finally I think the tie has come that he should be phased out as a) Enrique's style surely more suits someone more dynamic/defensive and b) he is inevitably getting towards the twilight years of his career.
fair enough. That's quite true. I still feel there's something left in Iniesta though. We will see next year
For some reason I never rated Busquets that highly. Probably because of his lack of fair play and bad antics everytime I saw him
True, PSG's pressing was very good and Emery deserves full credit - but it's not impossible for a coach/team to react to tactics like that. I'm just not sure if letting Iniesta/Messi collect the ball so deep already was that conscious adjustment by Enrique (if so, it has failed), or rather an on-pitch emergency measure when Barca's passing game was too slow to play around that pressing to get to the attacking third.
He's awful as CB. Gets saved time and time again by Barcelona's midfield and attack, but any decent team that is able to hang some crosses in the air is guaranteed to score against Mascherano.
He is not even 29, could well have four years or so at top level left?
A new manager would definitely improve them, but I'm curious what they plan on doing with Messi. Not insinuating they should sell him, but I don't know if Messi can be afforded as much freedom as he's had the past season or so anymore.
Would be curious to see how they'd look with Messi behind Suarez and a right sided attacker brought in. Even if that goes against their ideals somewhat.
Would be curious to see how they'd look with Messi behind Suarez and a right sided attacker brought in. Even if that goes against their ideals somewhat.
I won't lie, I definitely thought he was 30 lol
Even so, from watching Barca's new ultra direct attack and need to get the ball to MSN I think they need someone with more legs in there. Like a Dembele type who is still technical but will help break up counters/put himself about as they inevitably need to regain possession more these days
The way they play now compared to then is very different.
Nowadays, they're a bit too fluid in shape to their own detriment.
And the midfield has definitely dropped a level in terms of performance.
It's a bit of both really. A systematic change and performance levels dropping. Their past 2 transfer windows haven't been good.
I've found some picture on another forum: so I can't say if the figures are accurate.
Let's discuss it.
Let's discuss it.
They made a mess out of finding a xavi replacement, they better not do the same when it comes to replacing Iniesta.
The only thing he could've done was scrap the Barca way of playing0what pep did in the second match vs barca), and we all know that's not going to happen.
@Downcast
The pictures seem a bit.. odd at least. The last one is certainly wrong, Barca lost one of their first games this season with him. Also he did not miss 7 league games in 10/11.
I'd love to know where the passing stats for Busquets come from as they seem very off but at the same time the trend of him playing less passes is actually true I think.
The first one is true I think.
That being said I'd generally agree with the development the pictures show - may they be right or wrong.
Barcelona is more dependend on Messi though to be fair they were more dependend on him in 2011/12 (I think it was) than now IMO. Signing Suarez and Neymar (basically explains the development of the first pic - the team is now built around the fowards mostly) took weight of his shoulders, that was generally a good thing for Barcelona. Problem is that they still have zero depth and can't replace any of the 3 forwards and the midfield/build up is now a bigger problem. Busquets playing lesser passes is of course not very surprising as the team in general values possession less now and the game is played further up the pitch which means Busquets will see less of the ball.
In general I don't think the first two pictures show a big problem. Maybe 22 goals from the rest of the team was a bit low but about 30 is ok as long as you have a forward line like MSN. The midfield is a problem but imo Busquets "decline" is more down to the change of play from Barcelona than down to an actual decline. I think if they brought back Pep for example and replaced the likes of Gomes he'd shine again.
The pictures seem a bit.. odd at least. The last one is certainly wrong, Barca lost one of their first games this season with him. Also he did not miss 7 league games in 10/11.
I'd love to know where the passing stats for Busquets come from as they seem very off but at the same time the trend of him playing less passes is actually true I think.
The first one is true I think.
That being said I'd generally agree with the development the pictures show - may they be right or wrong.
Barcelona is more dependend on Messi though to be fair they were more dependend on him in 2011/12 (I think it was) than now IMO. Signing Suarez and Neymar (basically explains the development of the first pic - the team is now built around the fowards mostly) took weight of his shoulders, that was generally a good thing for Barcelona. Problem is that they still have zero depth and can't replace any of the 3 forwards and the midfield/build up is now a bigger problem. Busquets playing lesser passes is of course not very surprising as the team in general values possession less now and the game is played further up the pitch which means Busquets will see less of the ball.
In general I don't think the first two pictures show a big problem. Maybe 22 goals from the rest of the team was a bit low but about 30 is ok as long as you have a forward line like MSN. The midfield is a problem but imo Busquets "decline" is more down to the change of play from Barcelona than down to an actual decline. I think if they brought back Pep for example and replaced the likes of Gomes he'd shine again.
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@legolegs
Yeah, I think the figures are certainly inaccurate but the trends make sense:
- more reliability on the offensive trio
- a more straight-forward approach with Enrique compared to his predecessors, essentially because Xavi was declining before retiring.
Yeah, I think the figures are certainly inaccurate but the trends make sense:
- more reliability on the offensive trio
- a more straight-forward approach with Enrique compared to his predecessors, essentially because Xavi was declining before retiring.
The defender Yerri Mina will join Barcelona in January 2018!
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/barcelona-...l-remain-palmeiras-until-january-2018-1606960
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/barcelona-...l-remain-palmeiras-until-january-2018-1606960
Don't know him. Is he any good?
Wiki says he's 6ft 5. Will he even fit in their dressing room?
Me neither, but I read somewhere that he likes to bring the ball out of defense and Pique is the "role model".
Apparently West Ham and City were also interested in him.
I really do not like Barcelona and their latest action http://www.espnfc.com/barcelona/sto...rez-suspension-appeal-to-court-of-arbitration has not done more to impress me. I really do not like them when in defeat they act like spoiled brats to say the least. I hope Sevilla leapfrog them in the league and it was a joy to see PSG outclass them in the CL.
Mina is good CB talent. One of the better players for Palmeiras. Very good aerially but is slow.
Maybe Wenger will end up at Barca...
If the board is considering Wenger, they need to be sacked on the spot. This isn't 2004.
If there's a BarcaFanTV, I'm learning Spanish.
From an article in the mirror with quotes from Sampaoli:
Sampaoli leads his side into Champions League last-16 action against Leicester next week, and the ex-Chile boss has been mentioned as a potential successor - with some members of the Camp Nou hierarchy having pinpointed him as the No.1 choice.
However, when asked about speculation, he told Sevilla’s official website: "I do not have to explain anything to anyone. I have nothing to do with what is said.''
"My mind is focused on continuing to work every day to consolidate an idea here, in the club that brought me to Europe.''
"It is clear that this profession is about the present and the reality, and the reality now is to strive for this club. Tomorrow, you never know."
"This type of media speculation doesn't help clearly evaluate all that Luis Enrique has achieved," he added.
"Barcelona's bench will be vacated whenever Luis Enrique decides what to do.
"I'm calm about the situation because none of the rumours started with me."
Sampaoli leads his side into Champions League last-16 action against Leicester next week, and the ex-Chile boss has been mentioned as a potential successor - with some members of the Camp Nou hierarchy having pinpointed him as the No.1 choice.
However, when asked about speculation, he told Sevilla’s official website: "I do not have to explain anything to anyone. I have nothing to do with what is said.''
"My mind is focused on continuing to work every day to consolidate an idea here, in the club that brought me to Europe.''
"It is clear that this profession is about the present and the reality, and the reality now is to strive for this club. Tomorrow, you never know."
"This type of media speculation doesn't help clearly evaluate all that Luis Enrique has achieved," he added.
"Barcelona's bench will be vacated whenever Luis Enrique decides what to do.
"I'm calm about the situation because none of the rumours started with me."
What the hell is this about not wanting to pay the €10M buy-out clause for Ander Capa and now being interested in some crap defender from Watford? The problems in Barca seem to run deeper than on-field issues. Now when the Spanish bank is under close watch the giants are suffocating or what?
Didn't the same thing happen with Nolito? I remember they turned down somebody because they didn't want to pay a low buy out clause
Dani Alves to ABC:
"I like to feel wanted, and if someone doesn't want me then I'm leaving.
"Leaving Barcelona on a free was a classy punch. During my last three seasons I kept hearing 'Dani Alves is leaving', but the directors never said anything.
"They were very false and ungrateful, they didn't respect me. They only offered me a renewal when they got the FIFA sanctions.
"That's why I played them at their own game and signed a renewal with a release clause. Those who run Barcelona today have no idea how to treat their players."
Shots fired.
"I like to feel wanted, and if someone doesn't want me then I'm leaving.
"Leaving Barcelona on a free was a classy punch. During my last three seasons I kept hearing 'Dani Alves is leaving', but the directors never said anything.
"They were very false and ungrateful, they didn't respect me. They only offered me a renewal when they got the FIFA sanctions.
"That's why I played them at their own game and signed a renewal with a release clause. Those who run Barcelona today have no idea how to treat their players."
Shots fired.
APRIL 2016 - Barcelona icon Xavi 
has told FourFourTwo that he hopes to return to Camp Nou one day as head coach of the Catalan giants.
http://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/xavi-my-objective-coach-barcelona
has told FourFourTwo that he hopes to return to Camp Nou one day as head coach of the Catalan giants.http://www.fourfourtwo.com/news/xavi-my-objective-coach-barcelona
How Barcelona lost their identity under Luis Enrique
After their humbling by PSG, Thore Haugstad explains why the Catalans have become a different team under their current boss
by
Thore Haugstad
On Wednesday morning, as the Spanish press hammered Barcelona after the 4-0 debacle in Paris, Catalan newspaper Sport declared that ‘This is not Barça’.
The headline could be interpreted in several ways. The heavy nature of the defeat was certainly uncharacteristic for such a merited side, but even more so was the nature of it: the way Barça had lost control of midfield, stuttered on the ball, cracked under pressure. They didn’t use to lose like this.
A few days earlier, Lluis Mascaró had written in the same paper that “Barça are not what they were”. The conclusion was the same: the style based on 99% possession and trillions of passes had been watered down by Luis Enrique, while the reliance on individuals had grown. Gone was their intricate passing, their midfield dominance, their sense of identity. Barça, Mascaró wrote, had become “just another team”.
His argument wasn't unfounded. In the first year under Luis Enrique, Barça tweaked their style so that the ball was moved faster to Lionel Messi, Neymar and Luis Suárez. They became more direct, stronger at counter-attacks and more reliant on their forwards. But the system was also far simpler, and the midfield was practically bypassed.
It worked well for 18 months, but now opponents have figured out that they can cut off the supply line to the forwards by pressing high. Barça no longer have a system in place which moves the ball through midfield; what was once their speciality has all but vanished, and it may well cost Luis Enrique his job.
Losing control
As part of the 4-3-3, the midfielders dropped deep to get the ball, while the full-backs pushed up and the wingers moved inside to support lone striker Messi
The contrasts are certainly stark to the passing machine Guardiola built from 2008 to 2012, and which was then maintained by Tito Vilanova. There was more control and the central midfielders had greater influence. As part of the 4-3-3, they dropped deep to get the ball, while the full-backs pushed up and the wingers moved inside to support lone striker Messi. The ultimate purpose was to set up Messi in the final third. “It’s my job to get you there, the rest is up to you,” Guardiola said.
Possession and control were king under Guardiola and Vilanova
This was reflected in the passing figures. In their title-winning season under Vilanova, in 2012/13, the seven Barça players with the most passes per 90 minutes in La Liga were all central midfielders. The highest averages were hit by Xavi (118.2), Thiago Alcantara (111.9) and Andrés Iniesta (96.3). After those seven came full-backs Dani Alves and Jordi Alba.
That's all changed under Luis Enrique. Barça now keep the ball longer in defence, then find the forwards directly. Messi and Neymar drop deeper to create attacks, while the midfielders move higher and wider and see less of the ball.
Such factors have led to a general loss of control. Barça have gone from a possession average of 65.3% in Luis Enrique’s first season to 62.9% in the second and 61.9% in the third. It has also meant that, out of their top 10 passers in La Liga this season, seven are defenders. Busquets, in particular, is used less: he averaged 93.3 passes per 90 minutes under Vilanova, but has gone from 80.1 to 75 to 72.7 under the current regime.
Busquets has become less important under Luis Enrique
The Busquets case
The full-backs have always passed regularly to the wingers, but under Vilanova they also played more passes to the midfielders
A case study puts the differences into relief. In January 2013, Barça beat Espanyol 4-0 at home; in December 2016, they won the same game 4-1. Both were dominant displays in which the underlying dynamics of their system were on display.
Since the matter in question is the way in which Barça build attacks, it makes sense to analyse the distribution of the defenders. The full-backs have always passed regularly to the wingers, but under Vilanova they also played more passes to the central midfielders.
The same applied to Gerard Piqué, the primary ball-playing centre-back. Facing Espanyol in 2013, his most frequent pass combinations were to Dani Alves (15 passes), Busquets (9), then Xavi and Thiago (7). These were progressive solutions; only six of his 71 deliveries went sideways to Carles Puyol.
However, in 2016, the majority of his 72 passes went to Javier Mascherano (24), right-back Sergi Roberto (12) and André ter Stegen (11). Next came Suárez (9). Only fifth on the list do we find a midfielder, Iniesta, who received the ball five times.
And yet the most startling case is that of Busquets, who received the ball 93 times fewer in 2016 than in 2013 (even if he played 15 minutes fewer in 2016).
Pressed intro trouble
It was Busquets who took care of the transition from defence to attack; the fact he now sees less of the ball denotes that this link has been broken
Busquets is particularly important here, because he has always been so crucial to the way in which Barça play their way out from the back. As opponents press, he drops deep to shake off opposition midfielders or play penetrative first-touch passes between the lines to the forwards. It was he who took care of the transition from defence to attack; the fact he now sees less of the ball denotes that this link has been broken.
This, in turn, means the centre-backs have fewer options – which again means Barça have greater difficulty handling teams who press high. Before PSG, Barça lost at Celta Vigo (4-3), Manchester City (3-1) and Athletic Club (2-1), while they were also lucky to take points at Sevilla (2-1) and Real Sociedad (1-1). All these teams closed down well, knowing Barça would struggle to move the ball out from the back.
When they then lost 4-0 to PSG, similar faults reemerged: again Piqué resorted to simple passes, while Busquets hardly got the ball.
This has surely contributed heavily to their decline under Luis Enrique. The disintegration of their system has long been masked by the brilliance of Messi, Neymar and Suárez, but they have never seemed in such need for new ideas. There are other factors at play too – ageing legs, poor recruitment – but a more refined way of building attacks will surely be a priority when the current season is to be assessed.
After their humbling by PSG, Thore Haugstad explains why the Catalans have become a different team under their current boss
by
Thore Haugstad
On Wednesday morning, as the Spanish press hammered Barcelona after the 4-0 debacle in Paris, Catalan newspaper Sport declared that ‘This is not Barça’.
The headline could be interpreted in several ways. The heavy nature of the defeat was certainly uncharacteristic for such a merited side, but even more so was the nature of it: the way Barça had lost control of midfield, stuttered on the ball, cracked under pressure. They didn’t use to lose like this.
A few days earlier, Lluis Mascaró had written in the same paper that “Barça are not what they were”. The conclusion was the same: the style based on 99% possession and trillions of passes had been watered down by Luis Enrique, while the reliance on individuals had grown. Gone was their intricate passing, their midfield dominance, their sense of identity. Barça, Mascaró wrote, had become “just another team”.
His argument wasn't unfounded. In the first year under Luis Enrique, Barça tweaked their style so that the ball was moved faster to Lionel Messi, Neymar and Luis Suárez. They became more direct, stronger at counter-attacks and more reliant on their forwards. But the system was also far simpler, and the midfield was practically bypassed.
It worked well for 18 months, but now opponents have figured out that they can cut off the supply line to the forwards by pressing high. Barça no longer have a system in place which moves the ball through midfield; what was once their speciality has all but vanished, and it may well cost Luis Enrique his job.
Losing control
As part of the 4-3-3, the midfielders dropped deep to get the ball, while the full-backs pushed up and the wingers moved inside to support lone striker Messi
The contrasts are certainly stark to the passing machine Guardiola built from 2008 to 2012, and which was then maintained by Tito Vilanova. There was more control and the central midfielders had greater influence. As part of the 4-3-3, they dropped deep to get the ball, while the full-backs pushed up and the wingers moved inside to support lone striker Messi. The ultimate purpose was to set up Messi in the final third. “It’s my job to get you there, the rest is up to you,” Guardiola said.
Possession and control were king under Guardiola and Vilanova
This was reflected in the passing figures. In their title-winning season under Vilanova, in 2012/13, the seven Barça players with the most passes per 90 minutes in La Liga were all central midfielders. The highest averages were hit by Xavi (118.2), Thiago Alcantara (111.9) and Andrés Iniesta (96.3). After those seven came full-backs Dani Alves and Jordi Alba.
That's all changed under Luis Enrique. Barça now keep the ball longer in defence, then find the forwards directly. Messi and Neymar drop deeper to create attacks, while the midfielders move higher and wider and see less of the ball.
Such factors have led to a general loss of control. Barça have gone from a possession average of 65.3% in Luis Enrique’s first season to 62.9% in the second and 61.9% in the third. It has also meant that, out of their top 10 passers in La Liga this season, seven are defenders. Busquets, in particular, is used less: he averaged 93.3 passes per 90 minutes under Vilanova, but has gone from 80.1 to 75 to 72.7 under the current regime.
Busquets has become less important under Luis Enrique
The Busquets case
The full-backs have always passed regularly to the wingers, but under Vilanova they also played more passes to the midfielders
A case study puts the differences into relief. In January 2013, Barça beat Espanyol 4-0 at home; in December 2016, they won the same game 4-1. Both were dominant displays in which the underlying dynamics of their system were on display.
Since the matter in question is the way in which Barça build attacks, it makes sense to analyse the distribution of the defenders. The full-backs have always passed regularly to the wingers, but under Vilanova they also played more passes to the central midfielders.
The same applied to Gerard Piqué, the primary ball-playing centre-back. Facing Espanyol in 2013, his most frequent pass combinations were to Dani Alves (15 passes), Busquets (9), then Xavi and Thiago (7). These were progressive solutions; only six of his 71 deliveries went sideways to Carles Puyol.
However, in 2016, the majority of his 72 passes went to Javier Mascherano (24), right-back Sergi Roberto (12) and André ter Stegen (11). Next came Suárez (9). Only fifth on the list do we find a midfielder, Iniesta, who received the ball five times.
And yet the most startling case is that of Busquets, who received the ball 93 times fewer in 2016 than in 2013 (even if he played 15 minutes fewer in 2016).
Pressed intro trouble
It was Busquets who took care of the transition from defence to attack; the fact he now sees less of the ball denotes that this link has been broken
Busquets is particularly important here, because he has always been so crucial to the way in which Barça play their way out from the back. As opponents press, he drops deep to shake off opposition midfielders or play penetrative first-touch passes between the lines to the forwards. It was he who took care of the transition from defence to attack; the fact he now sees less of the ball denotes that this link has been broken.
This, in turn, means the centre-backs have fewer options – which again means Barça have greater difficulty handling teams who press high. Before PSG, Barça lost at Celta Vigo (4-3), Manchester City (3-1) and Athletic Club (2-1), while they were also lucky to take points at Sevilla (2-1) and Real Sociedad (1-1). All these teams closed down well, knowing Barça would struggle to move the ball out from the back.
When they then lost 4-0 to PSG, similar faults reemerged: again Piqué resorted to simple passes, while Busquets hardly got the ball.
This has surely contributed heavily to their decline under Luis Enrique. The disintegration of their system has long been masked by the brilliance of Messi, Neymar and Suárez, but they have never seemed in such need for new ideas. There are other factors at play too – ageing legs, poor recruitment – but a more refined way of building attacks will surely be a priority when the current season is to be assessed.
Luis Enrique did well to adopt that system, as he knew Barca's midfield couldn't play Tiki Taka anymore. The problem is that is also very easy to stop.
I actually think that Herrera would be a great choice for them now. Maybe even Pogba and Herrera would be a great pair in front of Busquets.
Sorry if I'm derailing the on-going discussion on this thread, but does anyone genuinely think that Barca can over-turn the 0-4 deficit? Tempted to stick 50 euro on them to qualify to the next round at 11. The fact that the bookmakers still give PSG 1.05 which went up from 1.02 is quite telling. If this is a foregone conclusion, PSG will be at like 1.01 or something. I know this seems almost impossible but on their day, MSN is unplayable and if there's anyone who can do it, its Barca.
This midfield crisis will probably make them pursue Coutinho this summer
Think it is beyond them. They're not the Barcelona of before, were poor against Leganes despite fielding a strong lineup including MSN and they're likely to play both Andre Gomes and Roberto who were the weak links in the first leg.
Your best bet is 3+ goals in game if you think they'll be goals. Maybe 4+.
You're relying on a Barca clean sheet which is near impossible imo. At least a 3-1 or above would get you paid no matter who gets through
This is a great analisis, though I think Xavi is a greater factor above all the rest towards this new styleHow Barcelona lost their identity under Luis Enrique
Unless we find someone really special, we're going to need two players to fulfill the role Xavi was doing alone, Busquets has some of his tools (good first touch pass, knows how to keep possesion, uses that self-roulette Xavi mastered) but I'd put him with another DM with similar skills and Rakitic/Iniesta as the 10, Messi in the future.
We would need a lot more help from the fullbacks to create football, but with the strength another DM would bring they'd have more help defending too
