Fergie's obsession with picking old players in midfield

[Carl]

Putting them both on seemed quite bizarre. And the score was 3-1 with those two on the pitch and we got overrun and Sunderland had quite a few chances in the last 15 minutes or so and thus yes the reaction was probably reasonable. On another day (think Everton 4-4) we could have so easily dropped valuable points.

Something like that is always a gamble. Risk v Reward or whatever you wanna lable(label?) it. We didn't drop points. Job done.

Why did they need to be given minutes and both of them at that?

Because neither has had much football recently and with the upcoming fixture pile up they'll both be used (shock horror I know) so he wants to keep them ticking over.

 

[ForeverUnited19]

It must be hard for him to let go.

This was something i thought about the other day. It's a father-son relationship if there ever was one. We're talking about seeing eachother pretty much every day for about 20 years. Its understandable that they would hang around as long as possible.

but the problem is, whilst they're still at our club, their retrospective positions (cm) won't be strengthened.

I have made this assumption too, but let's be honest. Giggs was brilliant two seasons ago next to Carrick, and Scholes did much of the same when he returned. They were always part of the solution then. What is sad now is that they have finally started to slow down when it seemed like they could go on and on. I wouldn't say their age has caught up badly, it's just not all there anymore. Giggs is still in fantastic shape, they can certainly get around the pitch. With Cleverley starting ahead of them for a run of games now, i would imagine Sir Alex sees what we see.

 

[kietotheworld]

but the problem is, whilst they're still at our club, their retrospective positions (cm) won't be strengthened. I would rather see them retire and us bring in another midfielder, we can't keep relying on these 2 as our options for much longer.

This is bollocks, we already know what Ferguson's response to losing Scholes is - do nothing. He thinks our midfield is good enough already, losing what are essentially squad players isn't going to make him take any drastic action. It's the first choice players whose presences are stopping Ferguson genuinely strengthening the first team.

 

[Sandikan]

This is bollocks, we already know what Ferguson's response to losing Scholes is - do nothing. He thinks our midfield is good enough already, losing what are essentially squad players isn't going to make him take any drastic action. It's the first choice players whose presences are stopping Ferguson genuinely strengthening the first team.

If Scholes and Giggs both retire in the summer, I really can't see Fergie not going for a big midfielder, unless Cleverley and Anderson both pretty much stay in top form and uninjured.

Bearing in mind Anderson has had his obligatory good 4-5 games, broken down again, and it'll probably be late Feb before he's fit/back into form again, I can't see that happening.

We certainly can't go into next season with just Carrick, Cleverley, Anderson, Fletcher and a very green Powell.

 

[Amir]

Something like that is always a gamble. Risk v Reward or whatever you wanna lable(label?) it. We didn't drop points. Job done.

If using Giggs and Scholes is a risk... Why are they even still playing for Manchester United? There's a major flaw in that logic. Surely there's a problem if our backup midfielders are ones we prefer to use only when 3-0 up.

This is bollocks, we already know what Ferguson's response to losing Scholes is - do nothing. He thinks our midfield is good enough already, losing what are essentially squad players isn't going to make him take any drastic action. It's the first choice players whose presences are stopping Ferguson genuinely strengthening the first team.

Even in numerical terms, Fergie will struggle to say we've got good cover without those two.

 

[Carl]

If using Giggs and Scholes is a risk... Why are they even still playing for Manchester United? There's a major flaw in that logic. Surely there's a problem if our backup midfielders are ones we prefer to use only when 3-0 up.

Just simply "using" them isn't a risk. However pairing them together in a 2 man midfield is an obvious risk.

 

[kietotheworld]

If Scholes and Giggs both retire in the summer, I really can't see Fergie not going for a big midfielder, unless Cleverley and Anderson both pretty much stay in top form and uninjured.

Bearing in mind Anderson has had his obligatory good 4-5 games, broken down again, and it'll probably be late Feb before he's fit/back into form again, I can't see that happening.

We certainly can't go into next season with just Carrick, Cleverley, Anderson, Fletcher and a very green Powell.

Why would he go for a big midfielder to replace a couple of squad players? As world class players they are already gone, they have been for a long time, you don't need to replace them with other world class players when they leave. As first choice players they've already been replaced.

They've not been replaced very well admittedly, but if you bring in a world class midfielder in summer after Scholes and Giggs retire he's not replacing them because he'll have a completely different role, he'd be taking Cleverley or Anderson or Carrick's role, and one of those players would be taking over Scholes and/or Giggs'.

Even in numerical terms, Fergie will struggle to say we've got good cover without those two.

No he won't, it's easy to make a case for the midfield for next year even without Scholes and Giggs.

He'll include Jones as an option in midfield, it'll finally be Anderson's time to step up (again), Cleverley's development will be continuing, we'll still have Carrick, Rafael can play in midfield if need be, and so on, Kagawa will be included as a midfielder (might be valid if we move to the diamond), he might think Powell is an option there next season.

Central midfield isn't Ferguson's priority. He's consistently decided to focus on all the other areas of the team and ignore central midfield, regardless of retirements, regardless of having mediocre, elderly, crocked or severely ill players as major options, there's no reason to think he's going to change this summer because we might lose a couple of squad players. He's so uninterested in making acquisitions there that he thinks Giggs can play until 2015.

 

[Amir]

Unfortunately, kietotheworld, you could be right. Nevertheless, retirement is looming for Giggs and Scholes anyway. Whether it's this summer or the next. Even if it means clearing the way for Jones to play regularly in midfield, trying to convert Kagawa into a 4-4-2 man or giving more playing time to the likes of Powell, I'd probably prefer that over continually using Giggs and Scholes. At least those lads might make the progress we need.

 

[kietotheworld]

I hope I'm wrong but I've completely given up on seeing another genuine CM arrive at the club during Ferguson's tenure. I can understand why to be honest, if I'd spent the best part of £100m on Hargreaves, Anderson, Veron, Kleberson, and Djemba Djemba I might choose to focus on other areas as well.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

I don't think either Scholes or Giggs will be in the playing staff for the club next season.

 

[marjen]

I think it's a bit silly debating them both coming on vs Sunderland, as the game in reality was killed and seizing the initiative for 20 minutes didn't really matter.

One or the other of them starting in a midfield two though... Don't get me started.

 

[Devil may care]

Fergie is saying what I'd expect him to say but I think both will know their time is up, it's been an amazing run that has lasted longer than we could have ever hoped but come the summer I expect both to retire.

 

[Reapersoul20]

There won't be any stain. Form is temporary, class is permanent. They ooze class. You'll all be eating your words when Scholesy or Giggsy turns a game around for us, once again.

Have that. Tossers.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

Have that. Tossers.

 

[Reapersoul20]

Someone is embarrassed.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Oh that's okay then, let's start him in central midfield against Spurs at the weekend. Or better yet, he can be wide left and Scholes play in the middle.

 

[Platato]

How about not.........

 

[Ludens the Red]

Bumping this because it's statistical fact that we lose more games when we 'pick old players in midfield'.
Our last 7 Premier League defeats (stretching back to January 2012) in 6 of those 7 games we have started either Scholes or Giggs in a two man central midfield. And in the other we played both and Park (City last season)

Newcastle 0-3 - Carrick/Giggs
Wigan 0-1 - Carrick/Giggs
City 0-1 - Carrick/Scholes/Giggs
Everton 0-1 - Cleverley/Scholes
Spurs 2-3 - Carrick/Scholes/Giggs
Norwich 0-1 - Carrick/Giggs
City 1-2 - Carrick/Giggs

This automatically also means that we haven't lost a PL game starting Carrick with Jones/Cleverley or Anderson in that same period.

 

[Cina]

Yeah, I remember seeing similar stats posted a while back. it's pretty bad, and makes you wonder why the hell we persist with it.

 

[Commadus]

Leroy that's brilliant.

But SAF is SAF he wont change he will keep indulging Giggs and its 442 or bust even if all our wingers are off form.

 

[Siorac]

Honestly, it's quite obvious even without the stats to back it up.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Leroy that's brilliant.

But SAF is SAF he wont change he will keep indulging Giggs and its 442 or bust even if all our wingers are off form.

Huh? You know we've played at least three different formations so far this season. Arguably four.

 

[Tonjo]

It is very obvious that United do not have an assistant to Alex Ferguson who is a good tactician. Both Phelan and Rene is not good enough to advice Ferguson. I think Ferguson should retire and move up so that Mourinho can take over. Playing Giggs in the central midfield is always a risk. He cannot tackle well and is scare to go in hard in 50-50 situation. Ferguson and his incompetent coaches are either too stubborn or senseless as when playing against teams with strong midfield, players like Cleverly, Kagawa or even Anderson should be use to help out Carrick. Rooney who is off form should be used in mid-field too. A diamond shape formation would have nullified City's midfield.

RVP

Kagawa


Rooney Anderson Cleverly


Carrick

 

[antohan]

It is very obvious that United do not have an assistant to Alex Ferguson who is a good tactician. Both Phelan and Rene is not good enough to advice Ferguson. I think Ferguson should retire and move up so that Mourinho can take over. Playing Giggs in the central midfield is always a risk. He cannot tackle well and is scare to go in hard in 50-50 situation. Ferguson and his incompetent coaches are either too stubborn or senseless as when playing against teams with strong midfield, players like Cleverly, Kagawa or even Anderson should be use to help out Carrick. Rooney who is off form should be used in mid-field too. A diamond shape formation would have nullified City's midfield.

Bloody hell

 

[Inigo Montoya]

It is very obvious that United do not have an assistant to Alex Ferguson who is a good tactician. Both Phelan and Rene is not good enough to advice Ferguson. I think Ferguson should retire and move up so that Mourinho can take over. Playing Giggs in the central midfield is always a risk. He cannot tackle well and is scare to go in hard in 50-50 situation. Ferguson and his incompetent coaches are either too stubborn or senseless as when playing against teams with strong midfield, players like Cleverly, Kagawa or even Anderson should be use to help out Carrick. Rooney who is off form should be used in mid-field too. A diamond shape formation would have nullified City's midfield.

RVP

Kagawa


Rooney Anderson Cleverly


Carrick

A wind up surely?

 

[Commadus]

Huh? You know we've played at least three different formations so far this season. Arguably four.

But we played 442 more often with non wingers like kagawa, Rooney, welbeck out wide.

Even after trying different formations, fergie not persisted with them, he only used them for specific games.

 

[devilish]

There's no obsession at all. SAF picks whom he thinks he's best. The thing is that our CM does lack quality and Giggs is one of the best players we've got

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It is very obvious that United do not have an assistant to Alex Ferguson who is a good tactician. Both Phelan and Rene is not good enough to advice Ferguson. I think Ferguson should retire and move up so that Mourinho can take over. Playing Giggs in the central midfield is always a risk. He cannot tackle well and is scare to go in hard in 50-50 situation. Ferguson and his incompetent coaches are either too stubborn or senseless as when playing against teams with strong midfield, players like Cleverly, Kagawa or even Anderson should be use to help out Carrick. Rooney who is off form should be used in mid-field too. A diamond shape formation would have nullified City's midfield.

RVP

Kagawa


Rooney Anderson Cleverly


Carrick

And Giggs is scared to challenge? He was reckless if anything last night !

 

[Siorac]

Yeah, Giggs is a lot of things, scared ain't one of them. He's got balls. He just played horribly last night. And, well, he usually does no better in CM these days.

 

[Ruud10]

Perhaps we're overlooking the obvious.

Perhaps Fergie knew that by playing Giggs in the middle we'd have no chance to win the game. And that by not winning the game we would be under some pressure to close the season out strong and thus revert to starting Cleverley in central midfield and thus close out the season strong. And thus bring home the trophy.

Crazy and perhaps even lunacy, I know, but I can think of no other rational reason to start Giggs over Cleverley last night.

Seriously, what other rational basis would Fergie have for dropping Cleverley in favor of Giggs in central midfield?

 

[buckooo1978]

i think his only genuine alternative to Giggs was Cleverley.....Think Tom could have played or come on

Jones was needed in defence

Giggs is obviously a better option than Anderson (Who is how many years his junior?!)

Fletcher and Scholes arent available

all of this underlines for the millionth time how weak we are in midfield

think Fergie's initial line up was fine but when it wasn't working he should have made changes - he stalled and we lost

the main reason we lost that game though wasn't Giggs - it is the continued drop in form and lack of cutting edge/productivity from our attacking players lately (RVP, Rooney, Welbeck, Young, Nani, Valencia and Giggs himself)

please Fergie buy a quality CM this summer and a young prospect

 

[Ruud10]

i think his only genuine alternative to Giggs was Cleverley.....Think Tom could have played or come on

Jones was needed in defence

Giggs is obviously a better option than Anderson (Who is how many years his junior?!)

Fletcher and Scholes arent available

all of this underlines for the millionth time how weak we are in midfield

think Fergie's initial line up was fine but when it wasn't working he should have made changes - he stalled and we lost

the main reason we lost that game though wasn't Giggs - it is the continued drop in form and lack of cutting edge/productivity from our attacking players lately (RVP, Rooney, Welbeck, Young, Nani, Valencia and Giggs himself)

please Fergie buy a quality CM this summer and a young prospect

Agreed. My only disagreement would be that Fergie should have started Cleverley and brought on Giggs, if necessary late, rather than the other way around.

You can ask Giggs to put in 90 minutes against average clubs, but it's much too much to ask of him to put in 90 minutes against City. After all, they're defending champions and the strength of their team is, at least IMHO, their midfield.

Yes, we do need a new body or two in midfield to deal with the aging Giggs and Scholes (I assume Scholes retires), the situation with Fletcher, the woefulness of Anderson and the strong suspicion that Powell won't be fully prepared for regular action in the prem next season. Just one, provided he's a game-changer, will do for me. Two, if we're talking about squad depth. But I really don't want to see us add depth to the squad -- we need a midfielder of the quality that RvP brough to the front line. I ask very little!

 

[Beachryan]

It's just like last season when our chances of dropping points was literally 4x higher when Ji Sung Park started. So of course he started in the most important match of the season.

I genuinely believe Fergie has slightly lost it. He's still got all the charisma and will to win, but you can't tell me that a mid 90's era Fergie wouldn't heed the kind of info above. Certainly any other manager in the world would.

I just want to know how the discussion with Phelan must go:
SAF: So Giggsy in the middle tonight
MP: Sir, um, Giggs has actually been in the middle in the last 7 games we've lost
SAF: Yeah great lad, no doubt about that. What an athlete. Absolute legend he is, got years left in him.
MP: Sir, don't we want to do what we can to win or at least draw this match? It's kind of a big deal.
SAF: You know Giggsy can put in a shift there, really prolonged his career moving to the middle. What's Scholsey up to? Maybe we can pit them together. Winners they are.
MP: Sir, for the good of the team Scholes has agreed to be 'injured' for the rest of the season so you won't pick him.
SAF: Great, Scholsey and Giggsy it is. Great boys them. Remember when they were in the youth team, great stuff.
MP: Sir, Scholes is not available.
SAF: Alright, who's that young player we nicked from Spurs? Michael something, let's give him some experience.

 

[buckooo1978]

Agreed. My only disagreement would be that Fergie should have started Cleverley and brought on Giggs, if necessary late, rather than the other way around.

You can ask Giggs to put in 90 minutes against average clubs, but it's much too much to ask of him to put in 90 minutes against City. After all, they're defending champions and the strength of their team is, at least IMHO, their midfield.

Yes, we do need a new body or two in midfield to deal with the aging Giggs and Scholes (I assume Scholes retires), the situation with Fletcher, the woefulness of Anderson and the strong suspicion that Powell won't be fully prepared for regular action in the prem next season. Just one, provided he's a game-changer, will do for me. Two, if we're talking about squad depth. But I really don't want to see us add depth to the squad -- we need a midfielder of the quality that RvP brough to the front line. I ask very little!

i think we need both quality and depth in midfield

if Carrick broke his leg we'd be back to square one with one dependable, top quality player in midfield

anderson i'm sorry but doesnt merit a place in our squad and the longer the season goes on the less i think Scholes will sign on

god knows if Fletcher will come back

i think we need 2 signings in there - knowing Fergie we'll probably get none - its such a shame we lost Pogba

 

[Commadus]

I don't want fergie to sign any midfielders, we need more wingers and strikers. Midfield is over rated we should play with three wingers and three strikers.

 

[wr8_utd]

There's nothing we can really do about this because Fergie will absolutely never learn and just continue to cost us games by his quite ridiculous obsession with playing Giggs in these big games in CM. Cleverley might have been in poor form but he'd still have been far better than the load of crap Giggs put up in CM. It's particularly sad because it was so predictable and obvious to everyone even before the match.

 

[Carl]

It is very obvious that United do not have an assistant to Alex Ferguson who is a good tactician. Both Phelan and Rene is not good enough to advice Ferguson. I think Ferguson should retire and move up so that Mourinho can take over. Playing Giggs in the central midfield is always a risk. He cannot tackle well and is scare to go in hard in 50-50 situation. Ferguson and his incompetent coaches are either too stubborn or senseless as when playing against teams with strong midfield, players like Cleverly, Kagawa or even Anderson should be use to help out Carrick. Rooney who is off form should be used in mid-field too. A diamond shape formation would have nullified City's midfield.

RVP

Kagawa


Rooney Anderson Cleverly


Carrick

 

[bosnian_red]

i think we need both quality and depth in midfield

if Carrick broke his leg we'd be back to square one with one dependable, top quality player in midfield

anderson i'm sorry but doesnt merit a place in our squad and the longer the season goes on the less i think Scholes will sign on

god knows if Fletcher will come back

i think we need 2 signings in there - knowing Fergie we'll probably get none - its such a shame we lost Pogba

Agree with all this apart from bolded part. Cleverley right now isn't much more than a promising midfielder. Definitely not a dependable, top quality player. Our only midfielder who could get in the first team of any of the big teams around Europe is Carrick, and even that isn't true for Madrid, Bayern, Barca and Juventus. It is actually shocking how bad our midfield is compared to the rest of our team.

 

[Ludens the Red]

MP: Sir, for the good of the team Scholes has agreed to be 'injured' for the rest of the season so you won't pick him.

 

[Vooon]

It's just like last season when our chances of dropping points was literally 4x higher when Ji Sung Park started. So of course he started in the most important match of the season.

I genuinely believe Fergie has slightly lost it. He's still got all the charisma and will to win, but you can't tell me that a mid 90's era Fergie wouldn't heed the kind of info above. Certainly any other manager in the world would.

I just want to know how the discussion with Phelan must go:
SAF: So Giggsy in the middle tonight
MP: Sir, um, Giggs has actually been in the middle in the last 7 games we've lost
SAF: Yeah great lad, no doubt about that. What an athlete. Absolute legend he is, got years left in him.
MP: Sir, don't we want to do what we can to win or at least draw this match? It's kind of a big deal.
SAF: You know Giggsy can put in a shift there, really prolonged his career moving to the middle. What's Scholsey up to? Maybe we can pit them together. Winners they are.
MP: Sir, for the good of the team Scholes has agreed to be 'injured' for the rest of the season so you won't pick him.
SAF: Great, Scholsey and Giggsy it is. Great boys them. Remember when they were in the youth team, great stuff.
MP: Sir, Scholes is not available.
SAF: Alright, who's that young player we nicked from Spurs? Michael something, let's give him some experience.

I don't really agree with SAF having lost it, but the dialogue above is fecking class a material.

I think SAF might had played Jones with Carrick and Giggs/Cleverly in a mid trio if we had more fit CBs against City. Jones was brilliant as as CB but he did a very good job against Real away as well. Rooney and Welbeck on the wings.