Yes but we're asking an entire squad to up their fitness
Fitness
- Thread starter Wednesday at Stoke
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You can make small improvements to fitness during the season but the bulk of it is done in pre season. The type of training you need to do can't be done when there are games to play. At this late stage of the season all we will be doing is recovery between games. We are done now until next season fitness wise.
Concerns over the fitness of the squad under Mourinho prompted Solskjaer and his coaches to intensify training in December and January. There was an initial, and prolonged, uplift in performances and results, but sources said that the extra work on the training ground is now catching up with several players. Indeed some within Old Trafford have been alarmed by the sharp decline in output displayed by a number of them in recent weeks.
http://www.espn.co.uk/football/club...pool-transfer-blueprint-as-solskjaer-rebuilds
http://www.espn.co.uk/football/club...pool-transfer-blueprint-as-solskjaer-rebuilds
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The kind of fitness they need cannot be built while playing two games a week. With one game a week, you can work one or two good workouts in and you'll start seeing real results in four to six weeks. But a mid-week game makes it impossible.
I coached cross country and track and field, so to put it in pure running terms, you cannot run two 10k races in a week AND add speed endurance workouts to the mix. You have to have days off from that level of work.
So Solskjær's got two bad choices: Try to add some training in anyway or eschew it until the season is over. Either way, you end up with what we see.
(It's also well documented that the Moaning One had United near the bottom of the league in distance covered.)
I coached cross country and track and field, so to put it in pure running terms, you cannot run two 10k races in a week AND add speed endurance workouts to the mix. You have to have days off from that level of work.
So Solskjær's got two bad choices: Try to add some training in anyway or eschew it until the season is over. Either way, you end up with what we see.
(It's also well documented that the Moaning One had United near the bottom of the league in distance covered.)
Exactly that. We ran at the intensity required and got results, but then the players fell to pieces. It’s very reminiscent of klopps first season at Liverpool. He was getting loads of injuries and they were blowing teams away in the first half then gassing in the 2nd and losing.
eventually they’ve got the right players, top fitness and found the right balance. I’m sure Solskjaer will do the same.
What worries me is even if the players are fit enough after an intense pre season, will they still be lazy? They can be as fit as its possible to get them but they still need to work hard on the pitch, do we think this lot will do that or will they continue to saunter around?
I'm sure I've read the autobiography of one of our ex players (Scholes comes to mind) who said he used to absolutely dread pre season because of how hard they were made to work. Let's hope for more of the same.
The thing that bothers me about Lukaku who I think still looks borderline fat (for all the stick Shaw used to get about his weight I'd say Lukaku has looked bigger) is he doesn't use his strength (they say it's too much muscle) to his advantage, saw a bit of the Liverpool vs Porto game and Porto had a similarly built player up front, who while not as tall at least used his build to his advantage I'm surprised how easily Lukaku can be brushed aside
Is there anyway the mental sharpness can be improved as I'd say they lack that as well.
I'm sure I've read the autobiography of one of our ex players (Scholes comes to mind) who said he used to absolutely dread pre season because of how hard they were made to work. Let's hope for more of the same.
The thing that bothers me about Lukaku who I think still looks borderline fat (for all the stick Shaw used to get about his weight I'd say Lukaku has looked bigger) is he doesn't use his strength (they say it's too much muscle) to his advantage, saw a bit of the Liverpool vs Porto game and Porto had a similarly built player up front, who while not as tall at least used his build to his advantage I'm surprised how easily Lukaku can be brushed aside
Is there anyway the mental sharpness can be improved as I'd say they lack that as well.
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This idea that our players aren't fit enough is bollox. Ole has had enough time to get them to run 0.5k each per player to outrun a team since he's been here. To say he needs a pre-season when he's had 5 months is a joke.
For me personally, there were days I was up for it and days I wasn't. My fitness didn't change - depended on who I played, how I felt etc. Pro athletes when you're down are no different from a normal person who's down, energy levels will drop.
Every team is up for facing us now as they now we're down, just as they're scared of Liverpool knowing they'll be up for the challenge as they can win their first title in x years.
For me personally, there were days I was up for it and days I wasn't. My fitness didn't change - depended on who I played, how I felt etc. Pro athletes when you're down are no different from a normal person who's down, energy levels will drop.
Every team is up for facing us now as they now we're down, just as they're scared of Liverpool knowing they'll be up for the challenge as they can win their first title in x years.
If it was just fitness they would have still done well for atleast 45 minutes every game before breaking down. It's not just fitness, the players simply don't give a shit.
Fitness is not our only issue, no doubt but What a load of Bollox that bold part is.
Pool in the first 2 seasons with klopp got tired after the 60/70 mark and thats after 2 pre seasons but you think a team who were last in running stats could match any sort of high intensity for 90 mins in 5 months.
You have to be really sheltered to not be aware that fitness is built up in pre season (or during a break from the season anyway) when it can be dedicated to properly. It’s the same in every bloody team sport. During the season it’s about maintenance.
Yes, I do. You go to the gym for 5 months and tell me you can't improve your fitness if you wanted to. 5 months is a huge amount of time for any pro athlete who is not injured to pick up some cardio.Fitness is not our only issue, no doubt but What a load of Bollox that bold part is.
Pool in the first 2 seasons with klopp got tired after the 60/70 mark and thats after 2 pre seasons but you think a team who were last in running stats could match any sort of high intensity for 90 mins in 5 months.
Likewise, after 4-6 weeks off of nothing for summer break they can come back and because of pre season under ole now run 5k per match further.
Come on man, think before you post.
The level of Ignorance in your post is shocking. Someone who goes to the gym and being a pro footballer is the same thing.
You really should take your own advice and think first before posting.
The last 5 months has been the most intense during the season with 2 games per week. Yes you can improve fitness levels in 5 months if you are a normal person but for a top athlete who already has a high fitness level it takes a lot more training to improve and with 2 games per week it's impossible to get them that amount of training.
It's possible to get them that amount of training but you will empty the tanks. So don't expect any sort of sharpness during games, particularly against opponents that have a far smaller training load.
And it won't give the same results as there won't be enough rest. Training to hard without enough rest for the muscles to recover won't give any results it will only get players injured.
Surely you get that we're talking about relative fitness. I'm sure they are reasonably fit but it's plainly obvious that the teams they are playing against are fitter. That's hard to overcome. Our last 5 games have been against teams with a few extra days rest that us. It adds up. It's been apparent for weeks t anybody who is actually paying attention.
If you think you can do intense fitness work at this stage of the season when we are playing twice a week you simply mental.
Fitness, I can accept being a issue against big teams and maybe Everton away.
But we got outplayed by Watford and West Ham at home. What was the excuse there? West Ham are one of the teams who do the least running in the leagues probably less than us not surprising considering how City looked unfit under Pellegrinni.
Ole needs to set out a plan of how he wants to play.
But we got outplayed by Watford and West Ham at home. What was the excuse there? West Ham are one of the teams who do the least running in the leagues probably less than us not surprising considering how City looked unfit under Pellegrinni.
Ole needs to set out a plan of how he wants to play.
That's not how fitness works.
You can train aerobic fitness or anaerobic fitness, but not both at once. Aerobic fitness is endurance and anaerobic fitness is maximum effort ability like sprinting. Aerobic fitness can only be built up by slow, hard work in pre season with no concern for recovery and it has little carryover to a game situation. It also neglects anaerobic fitness, which is part of the reason players often look sluggish in the first few games of a new season.
You can't do the type of training required for endurance and still be sharp enough to play a game once or twice a week.
I mentioned this frequently at the beginning of the season, people are quick to forget how we started this season. We had no attackers in the pre-season because of injuries and the WC. We were missing Matic, Pogba, Rashford, Lukaku, Lingard. Players that play a lot haven't featured at all for us this season (Darmian, Fosu-Mensah, Garner, Mitchell, Tuanzebe, Chong, Williams, Bohui).
Fitness has been our problem the entire season. We've looked knackered since December. It's partly because of the mess of a pre-season, partly because of the coaches and partly because of the players for not taking it upon themselves to stay in a better shape.
Mourinho bred negativity in public but he did make points even though how he went about making them wasn't smart. We needed more players at the start of the season, we have lacked depth and quality and this is the result.
Compare it to Liverpool who were barely missing any players in pre-season, have had a dream PL schedule (way more rest days than any other club in the league) and few injuries and it's easy to see why they have done so well and why they still have players who are sharp.
Spurs have struggled somewhat in a similar manner to us but managed to grind out results despite playing poorly at the start of the season. City simply have way more depth than all the other teams so it's not the same problem for them. Arsenal players weren't too busy during the summer so like Liverpool got a decent rest and got a good pre-season.
Fitness has been our problem the entire season. We've looked knackered since December. It's partly because of the mess of a pre-season, partly because of the coaches and partly because of the players for not taking it upon themselves to stay in a better shape.
Mourinho bred negativity in public but he did make points even though how he went about making them wasn't smart. We needed more players at the start of the season, we have lacked depth and quality and this is the result.
Compare it to Liverpool who were barely missing any players in pre-season, have had a dream PL schedule (way more rest days than any other club in the league) and few injuries and it's easy to see why they have done so well and why they still have players who are sharp.
Spurs have struggled somewhat in a similar manner to us but managed to grind out results despite playing poorly at the start of the season. City simply have way more depth than all the other teams so it's not the same problem for them. Arsenal players weren't too busy during the summer so like Liverpool got a decent rest and got a good pre-season.
If you do not understand sports science and strength and conditioning, the only person talking bollox is yourself.
These are not pub players who train twice a week (at best) and play once a week and get on the lash on saturday night. Its easy to increase input and get a return for those types of players because they're no where near the limits of human performance. We are talking about professional footballers playing against other professional footballers who are finely tuned professional athletes. The margins on fitness and conditioning are minute at best, hence the reason they spend 6-8 weeks in pre-season before the first round of the premier league conditioning for the rest of the season because its easy to maintain those fitness levels once a suitable level is reached.
When you increase output on this level (and especially considering the huge increase we saw), there will be a negative impact on player recovery and performance over the long term it is simply not sustainable.
Why do you think organisations such as WADA and USADA exist? its because the key to professional athletes is recovery. Nobody is stupid enough to take shit tonnes of steroids to increase athletic performance, because that shit will light up like a dutch brothel. Its the smaller incremental increases in recovery that allow players to play at their maximum for longer periods of time.
Easiest way to describe is like this. A car has a redline for a reason. That is not to say the engine cant rev past that redline, but doing so stretches the components of that engine to the limit. Unless the materials of the engine are strong enough to handle the increased stress and performance by conditioning, then the engine will blow up sooner rather than later. Whether its a person or a car, unless the foundations that support the "higher redline" are effective for what you want to achieve, you''ll still be able to reach that performance, but at a much higher costs (massive drop off in performance in the long terms or a blown engine).
Fitness would be an issue if fitness was not worked on actively. What’s the question again?
Exactly. In many games we started well and then faded away. We don't have fitness levels to play with intensity for long period of time, not surprising considering we were at the bottom of table in distance covered for last 2.5 seasons. When Ole took over we outran opponents for first time in the season (or second, i think we outran a team who were down to 10) and also made more sprints than opponents, ended up with losing half of the team.
This is something we should work in preseason.
Solskjaer said few times that they are not working on fitness much because of lack of time, at least it's good that he knows we lack fitness and among the poorest in the league.
Almost all the top managers started working on fitness with double sessions in preseason and IIRC Pep just sidelined few players in preseason as they lacked fitness when they reported back for preseason.
There were so many reports on Conte and how he is working on improving Chelsea's fitness when he took over. Hopefully we see that in this preseason.
Almost all the top managers started working on fitness with double sessions in preseason and IIRC Pep just sidelined few players in preseason as they lacked fitness when they reported back for preseason.
There were so many reports on Conte and how he is working on improving Chelsea's fitness when he took over. Hopefully we see that in this preseason.
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Fitness has definitely been an issue all season, we've looked labored and second best even in a lot of the games we've won. There is overkill though - apparently our slow start under Moyes was considered to be a result of an absolute bootcamp of a pre-season. We need properly conditioning.
These are the points that people denying fitness issues or Ole's ability to fix them simply don't understand or ignore.
To me it looks like the players are nowhere near fit enough to play the type of football Ole wants. Every game we start great with good pressing and good off the ball movement but already after 15-20 minutes it starts to fade off and in the second half's we look like another team with almost no pressing and minimal attacking runs.
They look unfit and goosed far too early during games. Jose really fecked us up in the preseason.
The early OGS manager theme of being gassed after an hour returned today. We play pretty decently before that for the most part like those games.
Its definitely been a major factor. At least that's one area we can be sure will be improved this summer.
Definitely a big issue and something that we need to change if we're going to implement a high pressing game from start to finish.
Think the way we used to press under Van Gaal was fantastic.
Think the way we used to press under Van Gaal was fantastic.
Um... the complaint through the bad run is that Ole quit the type of high intensity football that won the previous games but left us gassed, then injured.
If you can’t see it today you’re just blind at this point. It’s a major, major problem.
We look buggered so early on.
We look buggered so early on.
I see Liverpool approaching 97 points and in CL semi final and pressing the feck out of their opponents in late April without even resting stats but our lot can't being themselves to just press for a full straight 90 minutes and we're talking about fitness and exhaustion.
Fitness levels are appalling in comparison to the top teams but Jose’s way of playing didn’t require high levels.
We can press for very short spells and that’s it and too many players simply can’t sprint in second half of games.
We can press for very short spells and that’s it and too many players simply can’t sprint in second half of games.
Lukaku did a sprint quite early in the first half and looked absolutely knackered after it. In fairness he did still run around for the rest of the half but in the final 30 minutes today he could barely even jog.
This is a very key point
Going from running the least and playing one reserved style to switching mid-season to high-tempo fast moving pressing play has shown at this elite level can have major repercussions.
Could be as simple as that.
Going from running the least and playing one reserved style to switching mid-season to high-tempo fast moving pressing play has shown at this elite level can have major repercussions.
Could be as simple as that.
Shite management over the long term. Players themselves take some of the blame as clearly Mourinho didn’t tell them to be unfit but he didn’t seemingly care too much either.
It’s actually embarrassing watching that today. Quality is bloody irrelevant if you can’t last 90 minutes.
Energetic first half. Blowing out of their arse in the 2nd half. It was like 10 Andersons out there, all needing an oxygen tank.
The only one who doesn't seem to tire so quickly is Rashford, he just seems to tweak something instead and has to come off.
The only one who doesn't seem to tire so quickly is Rashford, he just seems to tweak something instead and has to come off.
It didn't happen overnight for them either. It took time, players had to be bought/sold. Why would it be any different for us. It's not just something that can be will into existence overnight.
It actually happened overnight and their style have changed 180 degrees once Klopp got the job that midseason and it was obvious.
Anyway it's neither fitness nor style. You don't need instructions to put a shift, press and run for the sake of the team. Our players are just lazy and don't care much.
Mourinho was always valuing work rate far more technical abilities and Ole definitely wants them to run and press. No way both were/are fine with this crap.