Football Leaks: Manchester City accused of using shadow firms to flout rules

tomaldinho1

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Sorry to be direct, but I am generally bothered by this popularised opinion on leaked information into the public domain (if it has importance for the public). I think you said “I think it should...” which sounds to me like an opinion and not really a question, though you did ask for a lawyer’s take.

It’s less a legal question and more a moral one, in my opinion.

What about hacked information on states’ war crimes? Should we discard that?
No issue with being direct, it just didn't make sense. I'm asking that because of how the info was acquired, it is correct that UEFA should not have acted on it. No opinion, just a question.

I totally agree re the issue though, that's why I said the law's fecked, as there's clear evidence of foul play and yet there is no punishment. I honestly would be fascinated to see the inner working of City's finances because the whole world knows something is fishy, from the Mancini secret salary to all the rumours and leaks you can't help but think they're taking the piss.
 

_00_deathscar

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City are just entering panic mode as final sanctions are getting closer.
UEFA are way too wealthy to be bullied by legal fees.
Wondering if this could get tasty - you're right in that I don't imagine UEFA give a hoot about Man City, not necessarily in the sense of which party is wealthier (probably the family that owns Man City), but more in the sense that the European Cup's prestige isn't built around what Man City do with regards to figures and revenue generated.
 

Fitchett

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What's interesting about City is how rarely you hear that their top players want to leave.

United's top players are often unsettled (Pogba, Di Maria, Lukaku etc) but you never hear a peep out of City's. Yet they all live in the same area, with the same weather and lifestyle.

Of course, the past couple of years have been great under Guardiola, but players like Silva and Aguero have stayed there happily for years, even though they'd have walked into the Barca or Madrid squads.

Makes you wonder about the salary figures they're publishing. City deny any wrongdoing, but the stuff about Mancini certainly raises questions.
You never read about Real Madrid, Barcelona etc trying to buy their top players, such as Aguero, Silva, de Bruyne etc, but there is always speculation about them trying to sign other clubs' top players. It must be that even Real and Barca know that they can't entice City's top players away. It can't be due to the climate, the history and prestige of the club, so it can only be the money.
 

Chesterlestreet

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I’d say entrapment is a very different thing.

Well, yes - just an example.

The point is - simply - that sometimes the law, enforced to the letter, does protect people who deserve to be punished according to most people's ideas about right and wrong. But that's a price we have to pay, no legal system is ideal in that regard.
 

Chesterlestreet

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It can't be due to the climate, the history and prestige of the club, so it can only be the money.
I'm more than willing to entertain the idea that City offer under-the-table money to their employees - there's plenty to indicate that they do (Mancini's "bonuses" and so forth).

But having said that, it's not really remarkable that the likes of Real or Barca haven't tried to sign any of their players. They have an extremely well stocked squad, multiple top class players (by anyone's definition), but they don't have players everyone and his dog would be wiling to break the bank for just like that.

De Bruyne, Aguero, Sterling, Silva: they're top class in their respective positions, but you wouldn't break the bank for them if you already had Messi, Ronaldo, Neymar, Lewandowski, etc. Plus, City are there or thereabouts both domestically and in Europe - and they play in what many consider the most prestigious/high-profile league in the world at the moment. It's not like they're (shadily) paying their players to stay in a backwater environment.
 

RoyH1

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You never read about Real Madrid, Barcelona etc trying to buy their top players, such as Aguero, Silva, de Bruyne etc, but there is always speculation about them trying to sign other clubs' top players. It must be that even Real and Barca know that they can't entice City's top players away. It can't be due to the climate, the history and prestige of the club, so it can only be the money.
I heard once read the Sheikh had a deal with the Spanish giants, a kind of non-agression pact. He wouldn't touch theirs and they wouldn't touch his. Don't know how true this is.
 

Baksuz

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City are just entering panic mode as final sanctions are getting closer.
UEFA are way too wealthy to be bullied by legal fees.
This will quicken the end of the Champions league and will probably accelerate a big 16 league or something of that sort.
 

Bastian

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No issue with being direct, it just didn't make sense. I'm asking that because of how the info was acquired, it is correct that UEFA should not have acted on it. No opinion, just a question.

I totally agree re the issue though, that's why I said the law's fecked, as there's clear evidence of foul play and yet there is no punishment. I honestly would be fascinated to see the inner working of City's finances because the whole world knows something is fishy, from the Mancini secret salary to all the rumours and leaks you can't help but think they're taking the piss.
Sorry, my bad. Misunderstood mate.
 

Bastian

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Well, yes - just an example.

The point is - simply - that sometimes the law, enforced to the letter, does protect people who deserve to be punished according to most people's ideas about right and wrong. But that's a price we have to pay, no legal system is ideal in that regard.
I definitely think there are certain things that should be absolute, no question. But hacking information that has relevance for the public domain is not one of those. In those circumstances, I think it depends on the information. Or leaking classified information, etc. You've got to weigh the public good.

Now, hacking someone for personal information that has no relevance (or importance, shall we say) for public debate, is indefensible. But as soon as it has significant and important relevance for the public domain, that area ceases to be black and white. On this particular topic here, I think it's fair to use the information garnered against City to push for further investigation. How they've reacted would only really exacerbate the need for a real investigation.
 

Withnail

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Does anyone have any more info on this (or how likely it is) from Miguel Delaney? He just sort of throws it in at the end of his article without much detail:

"While no one sees an expulsion from the Premier League as likely, the Football League have recently changed their rules so that any club in that situation must start again in League Two."

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...e-premier-points-uefa-fair-play-a9336946.html

I can't see it happening but it would be feckin hilarious.
 
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Does anyone have any more info on this (or how likely it is) from Miguel Delaney? He just sort of throws it in at the end of his article without much detail:

"While no one sees an expulsion from the Premier League as likely, the Football League have recently changed their rules so that any club in that situation must start again in League Two."

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...e-premier-points-uefa-fair-play-a9336946.html

I can't see it happening but it would be feckin hilarious.
Wishful thinking I’m sure but it would be brilliant if this happened as it would really teach clubs and fans to be careful what they wish for if City ended up with a decade of “ok-ish” success only for the club to end in ruin.
Funnily enough, plenty of City fans I know would probably enjoy being City again.
 

RoyH1

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I hope that as a result of this, nation-states stop buying football clubs as their personal PR projects. Been saying for years and get always get talked down by the finance boys. I have no issues against a billionaire spending his money in whichever way he/she likes, but when you come with the resources of entire state, you completely change the playing field.
It's a shame PSG get's off on technicalities due to them having spread their "legitimate sponsor" money better than CIty. At least I hope now they stop throwing their oil money about.
 

gica_7

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When Jose sacked, I remember reading something like "Jose believed he was competing against a state, not a team". Well we all knew it was true but this puts everything in a more clear context. If everything was done according to the rulebook, maybe we would have been champions in 2018?
 

Nou_Camp99

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This is worse than what Saracens have done in the rugby. The punishment should match. City should be relegated at least once.

They haven't just spent more than they should. They have done it knowingly and have tried to hide it with sham companies. It's way worse than overspending.

A two year CL ban would be a good result for City as the punishment should be a lot worse.
 

B20

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This will quicken the end of the Champions league and will probably accelerate a big 16 league or something of that sort.
Why? All the big clubs save PSG will be delighted with this.
 

B20

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This is worse than what Saracens have done in the rugby. The punishment should match. City should be relegated at least once.

They haven't just spent more than they should. They have done it knowingly and have tried to hide it with sham companies. It's way worse than overspending.

A two year CL ban would be a good result for City as the punishment should be a lot worse.
That is for the Premier league to do.
 

Nou_Camp99

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That is for the Premier league to do.
Agree. But will they? If they've been paying staff with sham companies (we all know they have) then there should be titles stripped in the period of investigation and possible relegation too.

Saracens have been relegated for breaching the salary cap. City gone way worse than that. They have breached it and try to hide it.
 

B20

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Agree. But will they? If they've been paying staff with sham companies (we all know they have) then there should be titles stripped in the period of investigation and possible relegation too.

Saracens have been relegated for breaching the salary cap. City gone way worse than that. They have breached it and try to hide it.
I would laugh out loud if Gerrard gets his premier league medal in the end.
 

Judas

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This is worse than what Saracens have done in the rugby. The punishment should match. City should be relegated at least once.

They haven't just spent more than they should. They have done it knowingly and have tried to hide it with sham companies. It's way worse than overspending.

A two year CL ban would be a good result for City as the punishment should be a lot worse.
It's easily worse than what Saracens did, but the PL would never have the bottle to do even half of what happened to them, unfortunately as much as its deserved.
 

Nou_Camp99

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I would laugh out loud if Gerrard gets his premier league medal in the end.
As much as that's not ideal for us reds at least he and Liverpool would have won it fairly. City have cheated and should be punished
 

B20

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Liverpool will be checked for irregularities next .
They can check away. There is nothing to suggest we're not fully compliant. FSG have been one of its biggest advocates and have basically hinged their model on UEFA properly implementing it.
 

JPRouve

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They can check away. There is nothing to suggest we're not fully compliant. FSG have been one of its biggest advocates and have basically hinged their model on UEFA properly implementing it.
You are not running with water and you know it.;)
 

Focusmate

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So surely will this level of cheating, they need to be stripped of recent trophies.
Man Utd Premier League Champs 2017-18 anybody?
 

Judas

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I don't really care about titles being taken away, because winning it that way for us would just feel utterly hollow and worthless to me anyway. But relegation down a few flights, now that's the stuff.
 

JPRouve

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I don't really care about titles being taken away, because winning it that way for us would just feel utterly hollow and worthless to me anyway. But relegation down a few flights, now that's the stuff.
I feel the same, I think that these titles should be sort of cancelled. Or you just add an asterisk which in my view is the worst thing in terms of legacy because your cheatery is written in stone.
 

B20

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I don't really care about titles being taken away, because winning it that way for us would just feel utterly hollow and worthless to me anyway. But relegation down a few flights, now that's the stuff.
Yeah, the joy of winning the title isn't returned.

Worth bearing in mind that the Premier league investigation is broader than UEFAs. They are also investigated for breaches concerning academy player recruitment and third party ownership issues.

If found guilty on all counts, the punishment should be even heavier from the Premier league.
 

Judas

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Imagine Liverpool weren't going to win it this year, and there first title in all these years came from City having their titles stripped :lol: that would just be the least satisfying, impossible to really celebrate and hollow way to get back on top you could even think of.
 

noodlehair

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This will quicken the end of the Champions league and will probably accelerate a big 16 league or something of that sort.
Don't think this will have any impact on that.

The problem City have is that for all the money their owners have, they don't actually make very much money for anyone else. At the end of the day UEFA or anyone else aren't going to be particularly swayed or influenced by a team who can't even sell out their ground for a game against Bayern Munich.

Then the second problem is that they are just so obviously guilty of breaking the rules. The only defence they have is "yeah but you didn't punish PSG" which I'm not sure is a defence in a court of law. Even if it was you'd have to provide the evidence to prove the situation was the same and that UEFA chose not to act despite knowing, and it's not like UEFA or PSG would just hand that evidence over.

The thing is this didn't need a punishment or official announcement really, because every one already knew. Hence why Pep constantly whines about his team not getting the sane credit as anyone else would, and hence why they still can't sell out their ground.
 

B20

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So surely will this level of cheating, they need to be stripped of recent trophies.
Man Utd Premier League Champs 2017-18 anybody?
Klopp defending the title this year and on course to win a third next season. José vindicated. New narrative being how solskjaer took mourinhos title winning side and turned them into a midtable team.

I'm for it.
 

RUCK4444

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Cant think of anything worse than the club I love being labelled ‘cheats.’

That sticks and it should.

Cheating is as low as it gets in any sport. Make no mistake that is what they have done here.

They had the framework of rules and guidelines just like every other club and they intentionally planned to lie and undermine pretty much every important rule within the FFP guidelines.

It’s as serious as it gets, if UEFA fold now and rescind this ban in any way it will make a complete fallacy of FFP. Every club with money will see the opportunity to do the same.

I hope the big clubs that lobby UEFA see this through, or else we might as well scrap it completely.
 

christinaa

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Klopp defending the title this year and on course to win a third next season. José vindicated. New narrative being how solskjaer took mourinhos title winning side and turned them into a midtable team.

I'm for it.
For thirty years Liverpool were a mid-table team too and now i know what fans like you have been through during ALL that time.
 

diarm

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What's interesting about City is how rarely you hear that their top players want to leave.

United's top players are often unsettled (Pogba, Di Maria, Lukaku etc) but you never hear a peep out of City's. Yet they all live in the same area, with the same weather and lifestyle.

Of course, the past couple of years have been great under Guardiola, but players like Silva and Aguero have stayed there happily for years, even though they'd have walked into the Barca or Madrid squads.

Makes you wonder about the salary figures they're publishing. City deny any wrongdoing, but the stuff about Mancini certainly raises questions.
This has been obvious for years. I assume it's a two pronged approach as well - they pay their players and staff far more under the table (or into Seychelles bank accounts) than they declare, and then at the same time, they warn the likes of Barca and Madrid that any attempts to entice City players will be met with a campaign to unsettle their superstars with enough money to make their eyes water.
 

B20

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For thirty years Liverpool were a mid-table team too and now i know what fans like you have been through during ALL that time.
In fairness, we've only had two seasons as bad as the one you are having under solskjaer. Souness' worst season and Hodgson.
 

Inigo Montoya

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In fairness, we've only had two seasons as bad as the one you are having under solskjaer. Souness' worst season and Hodgson.
It’s irrelevant in the big scheme as you never won the title even in good seasons