Football Leaks: Manchester City accused of using shadow firms to flout rules

[Fluctuation0161]

There's plenty of 'corruption' in football, and I can guarantee there's far more egregious goings-on than City circumnavigating in an underhand manner a set of rules which may well not even be compatible with EU law and are designed to maintain the status quo. It seems a little strange how worked up people seem to get over this.

You can guarantee can you? Any examples on the scale of City or PSG?

 

[JPRouve]

You can guarantee can you? Any examples on the scale of City or PSG?

Do we have actual links to corruption regarding City and PSG? What we have is City breaking the rules by circumventing them while PSG mainly do what they want and let the FFP committee interpret things as they want.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I think there's two separate issues and it's on the second issue that City fans have a different opinion to the majority of posters on here (although maybe not all given the oil money thread this week). They are: 1) did City cheat; 2) does it matter that City cheated?

1) Did City cheat? I think we can all agree yes. City have clearly more than bent the rules in a (failed) attempt to meet FFP. Most of this was already known, but the evidence lately makes this incontrovertible.

2) Does it matter that City cheated? I think this is more nuanced depending on what side you're on. Yes it matters that City cheated, and yes we should be punished (although note we were already punished for failing FFP anyway so the cheating was ultimately futile). But a lot of City fans, including me, disagree with the intent and implementation of FFP, based on what's pretty obvious was an attempt to protect the in situ elite clubs (see the Platini quote from Bobby Manc above), and I think that makes a lot of us fairly blase about a situation where we may be punished for trying to cheat rules that we fundamentally disagree with in the first place. We should've challenged the legal basis of FFP at the time, not cheated to meet the rules.

Good post. But I disagree that FFP was purely an effort to protect elite clubs. This is a popular narrative for City fans and plays nicely into the belief that they are still the plucky little club fighting the elites. But let's face it, in 2019 that is nonsense.

If anything, the financial doping at City has negatively impacted every single club that has finished lower than them in the league, or been knocked out of a cup by them since 2008. Many of those clubs are the real plucky underdogs who lose out because FFP being dodged (rules being broken).

 

[Bobcat]

Can we leave this leaks till the summer? Don't want City potentially docked points with pool up their arse...

Let them win the league, a complete transfer ban and a ban to play in Europe until they sort out their shady deals would be fitting punishment. Sadly, nothing will be done though since the bigwigs at UEAF are probably busy rolling around naked in bribes

 

[SER19]

FFP wasn't to maintain any status quo. A lot of top clubs hate each other and would be glad to see a rival crash. When city and psg come in exploding football then something had to be done. Simple as that. Every sport has perennial winners or competitors. There has to be somebody at the top. The fact is those at the top will fall away naturally in spells.

Who are these supposed elite status quo in league with each other?

United? Fell off a cliff post Ferguson
Milan? Oh yeah they've been dominating for years
Inter? More titans of the 21st century
Real? Have had their best spell during City and psg cheating. 1 CL in a decade or more before it?
Barca? Slowly tailing off after a once in a generation squad. Were also rans in latter 90s early 00s. Up and down with Ronaldinho successes then had the squad they had.
Juventus? The big bad status quo guys with uefa in pocket that got dumped to serie b?

The party line is pathetic. Without city and psg several clubs have done things the right way and emerged as contenders and without city and psg they would all be better placed. Liverpool are a perfect example. Atletico too. Several others that we just can't predict where they'd be otherwise as city and psg ruined the market auctioning up players and making it so most clubs couldn't even afford to compete. City and psg have done more than any team to widen the gap between the top and the next tier and they don't care because they're part of it.

Oh we want to be able to compete we're improving competitiveness--by making it so about 7 teams can ever compete.

Plastic cheats. Propaganda tool. A footnote in footballs big picture.

 

[SER19]

Good post. But I disagree that FFP was purely an effort to protect elite clubs. This is a popular narrative for City fans and plays nicely into the belief that they are still the plucky little club fighting the elites. But let's face it, in 2019 that is nonsense.

If anything, the financial doping at City has negatively impacted every single club that has finished lower than them in the league, or been knocked out of a cup by them since 2008. Many of those clubs are the real plucky underdogs who lose out because FFP being dodged (rules being broken).

100% correct.

 

[bleedred]

It wouldn’t surprise me one bit had they used fake accounts for transfers as well.

“Oh, you want 100 mil for debruyne, how about 50 officially, and 60 in offshore account for your troubles?”

 

[bleedred]

City fans are like Donald Trump supporters. Anything that doesn't fit with their narrative they just put their fingers in their ears screaming 'fake news'.

Completely oblivious to corruption going on around them, nor do they give a shit. To be fair, do you blame them? They're like a homeless drug addict that won the lottery without buying a ticket.

Five years back when every oppo fan said these deals look dodgy as hell, they were in complete denial saying that everything was legal.

Now the tune is like, yeah we cheated, so does everyone!

 

[BobbyManc]

You can guarantee can you? Any examples on the scale of City or PSG?

Have you never heard of Sepp Blatter?

 

[Dave89]

Five years back when every oppo fan said these deals look dodgy as hell, they were in complete denial saying that everything was legal.

Now the tune is like, yeah we cheated, so does everyone!

And just like the alt-right they have no interest in a good faith debate. Ban the feckers.

 

[andyox]

FFP wasn't to maintain any status quo. A lot of top clubs hate each other and would be glad to see a rival crash. When city and psg come in exploding football then something had to be done. Simple as that. Every sport has perennial winners or competitors. There has to be somebody at the top. The fact is those at the top will fall away naturally in spells.

Who are these supposed elite status quo in league with each other?

United? Fell off a cliff post Ferguson
Milan? Oh yeah they've been dominating for years
Inter? More titans of the 21st century
Real? Have had their best spell during City and psg cheating. 1 CL in a decade or more before it?
Barca? Slowly tailing off after a once in a generation squad. Were also rans in latter 90s early 00s. Up and down with Ronaldinho successes then had the squad they had.
Juventus? The big bad status quo guys with uefa in pocket that got dumped to serie b?

The party line is pathetic. Without city and psg several clubs have done things the right way and emerged as contenders and without city and psg they would all be better placed. Liverpool are a perfect example. Atletico too. Several others that we just can't predict where they'd be otherwise as city and psg ruined the market auctioning up players and making it so most clubs couldn't even afford to compete. City and psg have done more than any team to widen the gap between the top and the next tier and they don't care because they're part of it.

Oh we want to be able to compete we're improving competitiveness--by making it so about 7 teams can ever compete.

Plastic cheats. Propaganda tool. A footnote in footballs big picture.

We disagree on the intent of FFP so there's no point going over the details. Yes City have cheated, yes we should be punished, yes our sugar daddy has unfairly propelled us above other clubs without a sugar daddy.

But United "fell off a cliff"? The worst you've finished despite all the post-Ferguson upheaval is 7th and you've still managed to win an FA Cup, Europa League, and two League Cups. That's something 95% of other clubs could only dream of (and will only be able to ever dream of). As I said in an earlier post, I don't see a situation where United could ever be so poorly run (and there's no doubt you've been pretty poorly run the past few years) to be non-elite, and that to me is a problem. You're too big to fail. Obviously you can say that your past success gives you this "right," and I agree you've earned your status, but I don't think a too big to fail system is healthy, much like I don't think a sugar daddy model is healthy either.

Football needs systemic change. I'd like to see a situation where at the start of the season, every club in the Premier League feels they can have a crack at the title or winning a cup. But the big clubs are too big for this now (I include both the elite clubs and the sugar daddy clubs in this). FFP doesn't help us achieve this.

 

[andyox]

Good post. But I disagree that FFP was purely an effort to protect elite clubs. This is a popular narrative for City fans and plays nicely into the belief that they are still the plucky little club fighting the elites. But let's face it, in 2019 that is nonsense.

If anything, the financial doping at City has negatively impacted every single club that has finished lower than them in the league, or been knocked out of a cup by them since 2008. Many of those clubs are the real plucky underdogs who lose out because FFP being dodged (rules being broken).

I don't know what will happen to City in terms of punishment for the past FFP cheating, and I don't want to get into a debate about how much of City's revenue is legitimate/from non-UAE sources (it doesn't matter much for the purpose of my post), but the reality is that in 2019 FFP actually protects City's competitive position.

I've only done a quick search so the most recent figures I can find are from 2016/2017 season, and it shows City's revenue at 473m (I think we had 13 month accounts that year so a bit skewed) vs. Hull City (lowest in league) at 117m. FFP limits clubs to spending what they earn. But the big clubs earn so much that it's impossible for a smaller club with a quarter of the revenue to compete (or a fifth of revenue if you want to use United's accounts) without outside investment, which FFP prevents. That's a broken competitive system.

Does FFP help the bigger clubs by tying spending to earning? Yes, because the big clubs earn so much more.
Does FFP help the smaller clubs compete with the bigger clubs? No, it actively prevents it.

Based on that, it makes sense that the bigger clubs (and fans of bigger clubs) are all very supportive. The exception to that is the Milan clubs, who now find themselves unable to compete because of FFP. And hey presto the rules of FFP were then changed to help them...

 

[reddaz71]

Just dock them 25 points and a 3 year transfer ban.

 

[Judas]

Make them start next season on minus 25 points or something, obviously leave their tally for this season untouched.

 

[AP88]

Surely every team that’s missed out on prize money (for league finishes/Champions League qualification/advancement) can issue proceeding against City if/when the punishments are implemented?

If you finish 5th, because a team in one of the 4 places above you had been proven to have attained there place there by illegitimate means, surely they’re liable for loss of revenue? Revenue that could ultimately dictate the club’s sporting performance, and again subsequent income, for the next half decade?

The weirdest thing about City fans insistence that FFP is a crusade to keep the status quo intact - and that they’re flying the flag for the perpetual underdogs - is that in reality it’s their spending that is playing a major part in preventing organic, commendable sporting projects like those at Tottenham and Liverpool from maximising their potential.

Arsene Wenger’s Arsenal dynasty, an admirable empire built upon fantastic recruitment and player development, was ultimately diminished into insignificance by the plastic billionaire clubs buying the capacity to leapfrog Arsenal with little authenticity.

Remember Monaco, who usurped PSG in Ligue 1, and knocked City out of the Champions League - a true underdog story - what happened to them? The Oil tyrants couldn’t beat them, so they bought them; with Mendy, Bakayoko, Bernardo and Mbappe gone, Monaco slid back into obscurity.

Oil clubs are a cancer to the sport, and hopefully UEFA manage to render them benign.

 

[JPRouve]

Surely every team that’s missed out on prize money (for league finishes/Champions League qualification/advancement) can issue proceeding against City if/when the punishments are implemented?

If you finish 5th, because a team in one of the 4 places above you had been proven to have attained there place there by illegitimate means, surely they’re liable for loss of revenue? Revenue that could ultimately dictate the club’s sporting performance, and again subsequent income, for the next half decade?

The weirdest thing about City fans insistence that FFP is a crusade to keep the status quo intact - and that they’re flying the flag for the perpetual underdogs - is that in reality it’s their spending that is playing a major part in preventing organic, commendable sporting projects like those at Tottenham and Liverpool from maximising their potential.

Arsene Wenger’s Arsenal dynasty, an admirable empire built upon fantastic recruitment and player development, was ultimately diminished into insignificance by the plastic billionaire clubs buying the capacity to leapfrog Arsenal with little authenticity.

Remember Monaco, who usurped PSG in Ligue 1, and knocked City out of the Champions League - a true underdog story - what happened to them? The Oil tyrants couldn’t beat them, so they bought them; with Mendy, Bakayoko, Bernardo and Mbappe gone, Monaco slid back into obscurity.

Oil clubs are a cancer to the sport, and hopefully UEFA manage to render them benign.

Are you talking about the Monaco funded by an oligarch and who is in constant trouble with FFP?

 

[roonster09]

Five years back when every oppo fan said these deals look dodgy as hell, they were in complete denial saying that everything was legal.

Now the tune is like, yeah we cheated, so does everyone!

Anyone who isn't deluded knew the deals are inflated and dodgy.

 

[AP88]

Does FFP help the bigger clubs by tying spending to earning? Yes, because the big clubs earn so much more.
Does FFP help the smaller clubs compete with the bigger clubs? No, it actively prevents it.

.

Would Leicester have won the Premier League had City not had to restrict spending from 2012-15? Check mate.

The FFP Era has been on of the most competitive and successfully diverse in football history; Spurs have managed to consolidate a position in the top 4 with a modest investment in their squad, and keep practically all of their key players - amusingly apart from Walker, poached by City, a club who’d finished below them for the previous 2 seasons.....- while Atletico have similarly been able to preserve a competitive squad of clever recruits and academy graduates.

I imagine you deem Bayern an evil cartel club? Well, City signed Gundogan, Sane and De Bruyne from their historic rivals, strengthening their grasp on the Bundesliga title in the process. Well done.

 

[JPRouve]

Would Leicester have won the Premier League had City not had to restrict spending from 2012-15? Check mate.

The FFP Era has been on of the most competitive and successfully diverse in football history; Spurs have managed to consolidate a position in the top 4 with a modest investment in their squad, and keep practically all of their key players - amusingly apart from Walker, poached by City, a club who’d finished below them for the previous 2 seasons.....- while Atletico have similarly been able to preserve a competitive squad of clever recruits and academy graduates.

I imagine you deem Bayern an evil cartel club? Well, City signed Gundogan, Sane and De Bruyne from their historic rivals, strengthening their grasp on the Bundesliga title in the process. Well done.

It has easily been one of the least diverse era in football history, at CL or league level. Most leagues are almost exclusively won by one or two teams, the CL has been the least competitive since the 50s.
The PL is an exception due to the TV deal, that allows PL teams to pillage other leagues.

 

[B20]

Has this been reported anywhere in British media even?

 

[SER19]

We disagree on the intent of FFP so there's no point going over the details. Yes City have cheated, yes we should be punished, yes our sugar daddy has unfairly propelled us above other clubs without a sugar daddy.

But United "fell off a cliff"? The worst you've finished despite all the post-Ferguson upheaval is 7th and you've still managed to win an FA Cup, Europa League, and two League Cups. That's something 95% of other clubs could only dream of (and will only be able to ever dream of). As I said in an earlier post, I don't see a situation where United could ever be so poorly run (and there's no doubt you've been pretty poorly run the past few years) to be non-elite, and that to me is a problem. You're too big to fail. Obviously you can say that your past success gives you this "right," and I agree you've earned your status, but I don't think a too big to fail system is healthy, much like I don't think a sugar daddy model is healthy either.

Football needs systemic change. I'd like to see a situation where at the start of the season, every club in the Premier League feels they can have a crack at the title or winning a cup. But the big clubs are too big for this now (I include both the elite clubs and the sugar daddy clubs in this). FFP doesn't help us achieve this.

1st to 7th is off a cliff but terminology aside my point is that most united fans anticipated a drop off after Ferguson. When people point to our dominance as some sort of indictment of the game they’re full of shit, Ferguson was an enormous part of that it wouldn’t have happened without him. We got lucky getting him but our dominance had to end naturally. Like I said without city cheating Liverpool would probably have 2, Leicester would have 1, chelsea would have 2 but should we argue to take them out too Who knows. Tottenham might have one. These are clubs that deserve titles and were not in need of cheating to usurp this mythical status quo city fans won’t shut up about.

 

[SER19]

Has this been reported anywhere in British media even?

Barely and not as headline news from what I can see. If people don’t think that stinks to high heaven they’re in fantasy land. Takes German papers to even open the discussion.

 

[Thunderhead]

1st to 7th is off a cliff but terminology aside my point is that most united fans anticipated a drop off after Ferguson. When people point to our dominance as some sort of indictment of the game they’re full of shit, Ferguson was an enormous part of that it wouldn’t have happened without him. We got lucky getting him but our dominance had to end naturally. Like I said without city cheating Liverpool would probably have 2, Leicester would have 1, chelsea would have 2 but should we argue to take them out too Who knows. Tottenham might have one. These are clubs that deserve titles and were not in need of cheating to usurp this mythical status quo city fans won’t shut up about.

Leicester broke FPP rules too you know

 

[Cassidy]

Leicester broke FPP rules too you know

Which they were punished for....

 

[JPRouve]

Which they were punished for....

Their punishment was a fine like City, right?

 

[Josep Dowling]

Honestly past caring about FFP. We all know the City have breached the 'rules' and that UEFA will do nothing about it.

 

[Cassidy]

Their punishment was a fine like City, right?

City have not been punished for this have they?

 

[Stookie]

Honestly past caring about FFP. We all know the City have breached the 'rules' and that UEFA will do nothing about it.

Nail on the head. Nothing will be done.

 

[JPRouve]

City have not been punished for this have they?

I was talking about FFP in general but if you are only thinking about this, do we know who had access to this papers because you can't be punished for something that isn't proven or known. And before someone loses it, I'm not suggesting that they are not guilty, just that there is a process to follow, the leaks should lead to an investigation that will maybe lead to sanctions, maybe.

 

[SER19]

Leicester broke FPP rules too you know

Yeah and considering the extent of the offence and arguing factors from both sides the fine seemed appropriate.

City are just an utter industry of cheating with an aim of cheating to every single trophy there is . They can't sell out their stadium and post the figures they do. It's embarrassing and a huge middle finger to most clubs in the world. If anybody has football institutions where they want them it's city.

 

[Thunderhead]

Surely every team that’s missed out on prize money (for league finishes/Champions League qualification/advancement) can issue proceeding against City if/when the punishments are implemented?

If you finish 5th, because a team in one of the 4 places above you had been proven to have attained there place there by illegitimate means, surely they’re liable for loss of revenue? Revenue that could ultimately dictate the club’s sporting performance, and again subsequent income, for the next half decade?

I *think* City have only broken UEFA FPP rules and not EPL FPP rules, they are different, so any sanctions will only be on European competition.

 

[Thunderhead]

Yeah and considering the extent of the offence and arguing factors from both sides the fine seemed appropriate.

City are just an utter industry of cheating with an aim of cheating to every single trophy there is . They can't sell out their stadium and post the figures they do. It's embarrassing and a huge middle finger to most clubs in the world. If anybody has football institutions where they want them it's city.

that's fair enough, I don't totally agree but I'll always maintain that clubs like Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal created the City and Chelsea you have now with their greed in the 80's and then the formulation of the PL, as soon as huge focus and huge money comes along you can guarantee that you'll get investors like Mansour, Abromovich, Kronke the Glazers etc and then even worse, chancers like the Shinawatra, Venkys, Ashleys come along and ruin football clubs.

 

[antihenry]

Let's say, it's proven beyond any doubt that they are guilty, how would UEFA even BEGIN to punish City? Whatever punishment you could think of isn't going to change the advantage they've got. Unless you exclude every commercial deal from UAE companies from the consideration, they will always be able to report big profits and spend serious money on transfers.

 

[breakout67]

Apparently all that happened was that City broke FFP. Disguising investment from owners as sponsorship is legal or illegal? Would be nice if an expert in financial fraud would explain.

 

[stevoc]

I think the only appropriate punishment for these infractions is a 5 year ban from the Champions League and stripping them of their 2012 and 2018 league titles, but not the 2014 title that would be too harsh.

 

[B20]

Apparently all that happened was that City broke FFP. Disguising investment from owners as sponsorship is legal or illegal? Would be nice if an expert in financial fraud would explain.

It breaks UEFA laws, not state law. I don't know if there is a case for fraud under regular legislation too as it seems to me they'd have to falsify their books to pass UEFAs audit.

 

[B20]

Unless the premier league also opens an investigation for breaking premier league rules, nothing will happen to their league titles.

The worst that can happen to them is a CL ban and potentially, if they win it this year, being stripped of the CL trophy.

 

[JinnerJamie]

Just dock them 25 points and a 3 year transfer ban.

From next season can't have the dippers winning the league, best to postpone their punishment for now...

 

[finneh]

It has easily been one of the least diverse era in football history, at CL or league level. Most leagues are almost exclusively won by one or two teams, the CL has been the least competitive since the 50s.
The PL is an exception due to the TV deal, that allows PL teams to pillage other leagues.

The lack of competitiveness is not due to external investment in football, you can see this simply by looking at the league's that have not experienced external investment.

Portugal - 2 teams winning in the last 16 years
Germany - 1 teams winning the last 6 years straight
Scotland - 1 team winning the last 7 years straight
Norway - 1 teams winning the last 4 years straight
Denmark - 2 teams winning 9 of the last 10 titles
Spain - 2 teams winning 13 of the last 14 titles
Serbia - 2 teams winning the last 20 titles
Greece - 1 teams winning 12 of the last 14 titles
Ukraine - 2 teams winning the last 26 titles
Switzerland - 2 teams winning the last 9 titles

The reason for the lack of competition is three fold.

Firstly Champions League revenue is only being given to the team(s) who qualify. This causes a huge disparity between those who qualify and those who don't which creates a small league within a league. In countries with only 1-2 CL places this obviously exacerbates the issue. If you wanted great competition the CL revenue should be split between the entire league with the 20th club receiving no less than two-thirds the revenue of the league winners - this % would be set Europe wide.

Secondly clubs can negotiate their own commercial revenues. That means than Bayern Munich (17/18) for example have a €349m commercial revenue compared with Dortmund at €138m and Schalke at €106m. This puts them on a different stratosphere meaning that only ridiculous complacency and under-investment would lead to Bayern not walking the league every year. If you wanted great competition commercial revenue should be negotiated as the current TV deals are negotiated - country by country. Again the clubs who bring the least revenue to the league would receive no less than two-thirds the revenue of the greatest - this % would be set Europe wide.

Finally the distribution of domestic TV revenue should be set in terms of a % Europe wide. Again I'd suggest all league's harmonised with the Premier League in that the bottom team should receive two-thirds of the winning team.

If the current system in terms of CL revenue, commercial revenue and TV revenue isn't changed then in truth the only way to make the aforementioned league's competitive again is through external investment. Just like Chelsea/City have prevented United from winning almost every title these last 15 years, a £500m investment in Schalke and would do likewise for competition in Germany. It's a shame RBL don't have greater funds or a greater appetite to invest in truth.

 

[adexkola]

Man, feck FFP.

Institute some sensible rules that benefit everyone and then we'll talk about outrage