Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful

Marwood

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I'm not sure why you're so upset about pundits being paid, it feels like misplaced anger. They're doing a job, should they do it for free, if they're going to have any opinion outside of the football played on the pitch?

They are not being paid by Qatar or Fifa. The ones we should be angry with are Samuel L Jackson and Beckham and anyone else taking Qatari cash to try and give this world cup a better PR spin. Football is better with pundits, I'm glad they are there and I'm glad they're speaking up.
I don't think you should be profiting from Qatar hosting the world cup and at the same time for example say it shouldn't be held there.

Especially when you're already very wealthy and have no fiscal need to be there.

It's about having some principles.

And please, drop the online one-upmanship thing of cracking on a poster is upset or worked up. It's just a bit of debate.
 

The Boy

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I don't think you should be profiting from Qatar hosting the world cup and at the same time for example say it shouldn't be held there.

Especially when you're already very wealthy and have no fiscal need to be there.

It's about having some principles.

And please, drop the online one-upmanship thing of cracking on a poster is upset or worked up. It's just a bit of debate.
But they're not profiting from Qatar hosting the World Cup, they're doing their jobs they'd be at the World Cup whether it was in the UK, Qatar or the North Pole and if it wasn't the World Cup they'd be in studios talking about the Premiership etc.

They're speaking up while there which is a good thing surely. I can not fathom why you would blame them with no mention of Beckham, Morgan Freeman, BTS etc these are people profiting specifically from Qatar hosting the World Cup and as you say have no fiscal need to be there.

As for your last sentence, there was no attempt at one-upmanship going on at all, I didn't realise upset was offensive. For context, I am extremely upset about the arm band, about the LGBTQ laws in Qatar, about homophobia and I'm very glad that the BBC and ITV are still talking about it.
 

Marwood

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Okay, so I didn't say it then. I even put in my post that I know they are hypocritical but it's better to have pundits who are there and will speak up than pundits who are there and do not.
Every pundit for the major broadcasters will say something. They have to. It would be a PR disaster not to. There will have been meeting after meeting on how to address this as broadcasters. How do they nod to the problem and justify being there etc etc. It's just a PR game.

This is always how it goes. A few words are said. A few small gestures made. Everyone then feels a bit better. For the pundits, broadcasters, viewers and everyone, the collective consciences can rest a little easier.

It's worked a treat on posters here. Lots of people very happy Keane and Souness have spent 5 mins talking about LGBT issues. Now genuinely convinced it might make a difference.

Meanwhile the real business of making money is happening. Once the money is made they all move on and its never mentioned again.

It's how the money makers deal with all contentious cultural and political issues. Sadly it works very well.
 

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Every pundit for the major broadcasters will say something. They have to. It would be a PR disaster not to. There will have been meeting after meeting on how to address this as broadcasters. How do they nod to the problem and justify being there etc etc. It's just a PR game.

This is always how it goes. A few words are said. A few small gestures made. Everyone then feels a bit better. For the pundits, broadcasters, viewers and everyone, the collective consciences can rest a little easier.

It's worked a treat on posters here. Lots of people very happy Keane and Souness have spent 5 mins talking about LGBT issues. Now genuinely convinced it might make a difference.

Meanwhile the real business of making money is happening. Once the money is made they all move on and its never mentioned again.

It's how the money makers deal with all contentious cultural and political issues. Sadly it works very well.
Not every pundit has been. Some will stand/sit and say nothing while the convo occurs. Some like Souness will caveat their argument by saying that we shouldn't forget how the British are bad. Some like Keane will just say it how it is.

I personally think it's weird that you seem pretty against them saying something and seek cynicism on the topic. Of course it makes a difference when people who are icons of their sport are showing their support for things like this.
 

Marwood

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But they're not profiting from Qatar hosting the World Cup, they're doing their jobs they'd be at the World Cup whether it was in the UK, Qatar or the North Pole and if it wasn't the World Cup they'd be in studios talking about the Premiership etc.

They're speaking up while there which is a good thing surely. I can not fathom why you would blame them with no mention of Beckham, Morgan Freeman, BTS etc these are people profiting specifically from Qatar hosting the World Cup and as you say have no fiscal need to be there.

As for your last sentence, there was no attempt at one-upmanship going on at all, I didn't realise upset was offensive. For context, I am extremely upset about the arm band, about the LGBTQ laws in Qatar, about homophobia and I'm very glad that the BBC and ITV are still talking about it.
You're talking about them as if they're a camerman or sound guy, employed by ITV. Obligated to be there.

Keane, Souness, they're self employed. I'd imagine they turn work and opportunities down all the time. I'm self employed, I turn work down all the time. As do all self employed people.

Even easier for them being very wealthy blokes.

I've criticised Beckham lots here. He's disgusting. As is Gary Neville. But I can't criticise every single person profiteering in every post can I.

But ultimately they can go if they like. Fill their pockets. Just be honest about it. Empty words and empty gestures are corrosive.
 

calodo2003

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What perplexes me about the recent campaign for LGBT rights in world football is why it is being voiced more by straight male players and club executives. What Colin Kaepernick did with his kneeling campaign to voice injustice against black people felt more relevant because he had a moral basis for his views.
That is the reason why for people in non-Western countries, the issue of LGBT at the World Cup feels forced. Racism is still a problem in football but never seems to be a major issue at the World Cup, a stage where players from different nations come together. Indeed, human rights should not be a political issue, but it can become a political issue when several countries with certain geopolitical powers want to dictate which issue suits them best.
One can be straight & feel morally repulsed at anti-LGBTQ behavior.

I posit that the defense of cultures & customs of backward countries feel extremely forced, almost manufactured outrage.

Racism is still a scourge in world football & the world in general, why not elevate another human rights violation to the same exposure level to create conversations & agitate for change?

Human rights issue will always be political as it's the political arena where change is ultimately created.

It is a far wider concern than just 'several countries.'
 

kouroux

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But they're not profiting from Qatar hosting the World Cup, they're doing their jobs they'd be at the World Cup whether it was in the UK, Qatar or the North Pole and if it wasn't the World Cup they'd be in studios talking about the Premiership etc.

They're speaking up while there which is a good thing surely. I can not fathom why you would blame them with no mention of Beckham, Morgan Freeman, BTS etc these are people profiting specifically from Qatar hosting the World Cup and as you say have no fiscal need to be there.

As for your last sentence, there was no attempt at one-upmanship going on at all, I didn't realise upset was offensive. For context, I am extremely upset about the arm band, about the LGBTQ laws in Qatar, about homophobia and I'm very glad that the BBC and ITV are still talking about it.
They're obviously profiting from it one way or the other and it is okay as far as I'm concerned
 

dumbo

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If only Mandela had spent a little longer on the heavy bag he could have made a name for himself.
 

2cents

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This thread deserves serious consideration I think. El-Baghdadi is someone worth listening to on such matters:

 

Doracle

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This thread deserves serious consideration I think. El-Baghdadi is someone worth listening to on such matters:

What is he trying to say here? I read it as saying that drawing attention to the bigoted behaviour against certain groups is disliked by said bigots?
 

dumbo

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This thread deserves serious consideration I think. El-Baghdadi is someone worth listening to on such matters:

I don't know if this guy is just extremely poor at making the argument or if the argument isn't a particularly strong one.

Activism creating targets is an issue raised in many fights for civil justice. The battle for American Civil Rights and the suffragettes both had the charge leveled against them.

Western cultural imperial should be recognised. Condescension exists and should be addressed. Activism that puts vulnerable individuals, or groups at risks should be carefully considered.

However I haven't seen a good argument yet. For example:
Case in point - Hamed Sinno, possibly the most famous openly gay Arab who lives in the Arab world, and his enormously popular band "Mashrou' Leila" have... disbanded the band.
it is not a case in point and has nothing to do with the point about Western activism he is scrambling for. It is a misrepresentation of the story he linked to.
 

BD

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This thread deserves serious consideration I think. El-Baghdadi is someone worth listening to on such matters:

I did hear about that a bit before the WC too, that some LGBT people in the region were fearing the backlash that might come from 'western' nations pointing out the issues.

But for a fan like me/us, what's the suggested alternative? Do we just watch the WC as if nothing is wrong?
 

Abizzz

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The thing is who's to blame for the backlash? Homophobes that are protested against and perpetrate violence, or the ones protesting homophobia?
 

RacingClub

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They weren't stopped. They could have still done something but chose not to.
They were threatened by the governing body with vague sanctions that (according to reports) could range anywhere from a yellow card suspensions/ points deductions (if you can tell me exactly what punishment the players cowered away from then I'm all ears).

Obviously every participating FA decided against using the armband after these threats while the Germans supported their players and organized a (IMO) better protest than the Armband is/was to begin with.

Why would they be commended? They'd be commended if they followed through with their words. It's not commendable to say you're for and support a cause and then drop that cause the moment it gets tough (not even) for you.

Are the players feelings clear? How can they be when they said they care about something but then remove their support for it?
Well their words and actions up to this point (wearing the armband and vocally supporting the LGBT community) would suggest to me that they have made their feelings clear?

https://www.thisisanfield.com/wp-content/uploads/P181202-045-Liverpool_Everton-e1543769189272.jpg

https://static.independent.co.uk/2021/06/29/18/SEI85237890.jpg?width=1200

They want to do it (which is better than people who choose to do nothing) but they are being forced (just like the Germans ) to abandon it and the only difference so far has been that they haven't been creative enough yet to stage a different protest (which I think will happen personally).


As has been said multiple times, members of the LGBTQ+ community, not only in Qatar but around the world have to live every single days in societies which ostracize them.
Well absolutely nobody is denying that, in fact I think it's absolutely disgraceful that FIFA, the FA and Players from countries allegedly support the LGBT+ community chose to have the tournament/ participate in Qatar.

I can't be sure but I would say that most from the LGBT+ community would view the Armband as a token gesture from the participating FAs as a way to appease their fans (who probably are more supportive of LGBT+ issues than countries who didn't participate) and are more upset by their Nations attendence than them folding under the threat of sanctions from the governing body of the competition.

The England and Dutch players/managers in their comments said ok, we will shut up and move on with football, Germany didn't.
Yes that's what's happened so far but the German FA had more time to formulate their response than the English and Dutch and once again (IMO at least) the hierarchy of the German FA led with/supported their players while the English and Dutch have not (as far as I can tell).

So IMO players who at least tried to do something (English , Dutch , Danish etc) are better than those who didn't (pretty much every other FA) try to do anything at all (even if they are worse than the Germans) and it's better to have those guys trying and failing (so far) and generating conversation and controversy than just having a bunch of countries who try and tow the party line.

Isn't that the exact argument made for the pundits who are there right now? Better to have people who are getting paid to be there shining a light on the issues than people like John Fashanu saying "Respect their Customs" and generating no controversy?

The threat of wearing the armband and it being denied has generated (due to FIFAs threat of sanctions) more exposure than the armband alone ever could IMO.
 

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That's an incredibly stupid thing to say by Eden, even if he was directly asked about it. Should have said it's none of my business and left it. Now he's made a very loud political statement. Fool.
 

HisNameIsEarl

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If I understood things right, those seven nations also felt they shouldn't let FIFA divide them, it was either all of them wearing the armband, or none. So it was not an individual decision, and we should take that into account when judging the situation.
 

sullydnl

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That's an incredibly stupid thing to say by Eden, even if he was directly asked about it. Should have said it's none of my business and left it. Now he's made a very loud political statement. Fool.
For balance:

 

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What is he trying to say here? I read it as saying that drawing attention to the bigoted behaviour against certain groups is disliked by said bigots?
You don't need to agree. But he is making an observation.

 

NotThatSoph

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You don't need to agree. But he is making an observation.

An account with 95 followers, who has been tweeting non stop for months about everything and anything that he can possibly use. A 15 year old boy murdered in Austrialia? That means it's hypocritical to talk about human rights in Qatar.
 

Pintu

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Caring about gay people / women / being oppressed and / or hurt for being themselves is ‘Western racism’…

That is a dangerous take, that seems itself, racist and leaning toward extremism.
Except that's not what he is saying... The flag is starting to get dissociated from the LGBT community and linked to Western racism.. They don't believe that football association in the West care about gay people.
 

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Good lord the twittersphere is painful on these topics. Someone raising Poland and Hungary not having great LGBT records, as if they’re leading the rainbow charge against Qatar.
 

Doracle

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You don't need to agree. But he is making an observation.

“ A big part of this is a reaction to really insular, short-sighted, hamfisted, extremely white Western activism on the issue.”

This sounds like an opinion, rather than an observation. What does “extremely white” mean in this context? Why is wearing a rainbow armband short-sighted and hamfisted? It’s inoffensive surely?

Hasn’t the real negative coverage been caused by the hamfisted and extremely poorly judged actions of FIFA/Qatar in preventing the captains from making a small gesture towards equality and refusing entry to people wearing rainbow items in the stadiums?
 

Chesterlestreet

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Ah, yes. A symbol of support for LGBT+ rights (and in a broader sense universal human rights) is actually a symbol of racism.

We can now see the real reason why that guy in the rainbow t-shirt was detained by stadium security: he was a flaming racist.

How very convenient.
 

Thom Merrilin

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This thread deserves serious consideration I think. El-Baghdadi is someone worth listening to on such matters:

I read the thread and as far as I can tell he provides no evidence for what he's claiming and no real point to his argument. Maybe I'm not understanding the argument correctly?
 

Roane

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But I assume you recognize the lgbt community in qatar is treated poorly, right?

In that sense, if you opt for "well, if this... and if that..." and don't take a strong stance in favor of protecting this community, then you are indirectly creating the conditions for that situation to prolong itself.

Most people aren't really angry with rainbow shirts being allowed in stadiums, that's just a detail that shows the ridiculousness of the whole thing. The real issue is how ordinary gay qataris are treated, not to mention women and migrants.
I've not defended Qatar but the truth is I don't know what day to day life is like there. I don't know how the LGBT community is treated daily. Yes I've seen discussions like this and recently the Twitter etc stories of individuals.

Prior to the WC Qatar was pretty much a non entity for most. Including myself.

Let me explain this. Let's say we all accept Qatar and the LGBT situation is exactly as described by some. So Qatar is evil. What is obvious to me is that no one cared and for me still don't. It's just a case of bandwagons, virtue signalling and ultimately clinging to a stick to beat them with over what is essentially a list of things people went through. Corruption being the first then workers them women and finally LGBTQ.
 

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Let me explain this. Let's say we all accept Qatar and the LGBT situation is exactly as described by some. So Qatar is evil. What is obvious to me is that no one cared and for me still don't. It's just a case of bandwagons, virtue signalling and ultimately clinging to a stick to beat them with over what is essentially a list of things people went through. Corruption being the first then workers them women and finally LGBTQ.
:rolleyes:
 

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What is he trying to say here? I read it as saying that drawing attention to the bigoted behaviour against certain groups is disliked by said bigots?
He's saying that people in the West campaigning for gay rights in Qatar are actually making things worse for the LGBT community in the region

Heard similar from other sources
 

moses

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I have no idea either, yet.
He's saying that people in the West campaigning for gay rights in Qatar are actually making things worse for the LGBT community in the region

Heard similar from other sources
Isn't that like an abused child placating the abuser so it doesn't get worse?
 

Rood

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Isn't that like an abused child placating the abuser so it doesn't get worse?
Maybe

Or maybe there is no abuse as the LGBT community there choose to stay underground so are left alone - but now this kind of spotlight makes them worried about being outed which makes problems more likely

I heard this idea that the Qatari gay community don't want to see rainbow flags, tshirts etc on this podcast - worth a listen:
 

moses

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I have no idea either, yet.
Maybe

Or maybe there is no abuse as the LGBT community there choose to stay underground so are left alone - but now this kind of spotlight makes them worried about being outed which makes problems more likely

I heard this idea that the Qatari gay community don't want to see rainbow flags, tshirts etc on this podcast - worth a listen:
Absolutely, and it's a danger if we just waltz in to any delicate situation, in a house or a foreign country, but none of this is saying there isn't a problem, just this is not the way to deal. Which is why soft pressure like saying you're not having the world cup with these laws in place is the way to go.

Expecting people who care once they are aware to stfu is unreasonable.

A wider selection of those guardian podcasts proves to be quite critical of the whole thing..
 

Rood

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Absolutely, and it's a danger if we just waltz in to any delicate situation, in a house or a foreign country, but none of this is saying there isn't a problem, just this is not the way to deal. Which is why soft pressure like saying you're not having the world cup with these laws in place is the way to go.

Expecting people who care once they are aware to stfu is unreasonable.

A wider selection of those guardian podcasts proves to be quite critical of the whole thing..
Yes exactly, it's a question of the right way to deal with the problems

But negative political reaction in the media to this football tournament is overdone in my opinion and the message here is that this will not help the cause

Of course there is criticism in the Football Weekly podcasts but there is a range of opinions and they go more in depth than superficial reporting elsewhere - then you form your own opinion based on the facts
 

NotThatSoph

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Maybe

Or maybe there is no abuse as the LGBT community there choose to stay underground so are left alone - but now this kind of spotlight makes them worried about being outed which makes problems more likely

I heard this idea that the Qatari gay community don't want to see rainbow flags, tshirts etc on this podcast - worth a listen:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/10/24/qatar-security-forces-arrest-abuse-lgbt-people

A transgender Qatari woman said that after security forces arrested her on the street in Doha, Preventive Security officers accused her of “imitating women” because of her gender expression. In the police car, they beat her until her lips and nose were bleeding and kicked her in the stomach, she said. “You gays are immoral, so we will be the same to you,” she said one officer told her.
“I saw many other LGBT people detained there: two Moroccan lesbians, four Filipino gay men, and one Nepalese gay man,” she said. “I was detained for three weeks without charge, and officers repeatedly sexually harassed me. Part of the release requirement was attending sessions with a psychologist who ‘would make me a man again.’”
Another Qatari transgender woman said she was arrested in public by Preventive Security Department forces because she was wearing makeup. “They gave me hand wipes and made me wipe the makeup off my face,” she said. “They used the makeup-stained wipes as evidence against me and took a picture of me with the wipes in my hand. They also shaved my hair.” Security forces made her sign a pledge that she would not wear makeup again as a condition for her release, she said.
A Qatari bisexual woman said: “[Preventive Security officers] beat me until I lost consciousness several times. An officer took me blindfolded by car to another place that felt like a private home from the inside and forced me to watch restrained people getting beaten as an intimidation tactic.”
A Qatari transgender woman, arrested by Preventive Security in public in Doha, said: “They [Preventive Security] are a mafia. They detained me twice, once for two months in a solitary cell underground, and once for six weeks. They beat me every day and shaved my hair. They also made me take off my shirt and took a picture of my breasts. I suffered from depression because of my detention. I still have nightmares to this day, and I’m terrified of being in public.”
In all cases, LGBT detainees said, Preventive Security forces forced them to unlock their phones and took screenshots of private pictures and chats from their devices, as well as contact information of other LGBT people.

A Qatari gay man who has experienced government repression, including arbitrary arrest, said that security forces surveilled and arrested him based on his online activity.

All those interviewed provided strikingly similar accounts. The repressive climate around free expression in Qatar, including around the rights of LGBT people, has made many people who may have experienced mistreatment afraid to be interviewed because of the risk of retaliation, Human Rights Watch said.
 

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The thing is who's to blame for the backlash? Homophobes that are protested against and perpetrate violence, or the ones protesting homophobia?
Indeed. It was an attempt to deflect attention from the problem by blaming those who are shining a light on it.
 

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Indeed. It was an attempt to deflect attention from the problem by blaming those who are shining a light on it.
To be fair I've seen you make a similar argument in the Israel/Palestine thread: calling the situation apartheid doesn't do anything to aid the situation and may make things worse.