Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful

[Red the Bear]

Neither do I. This is 100% on FIFA to choose to have a world event in a region of the world that is decades at least behind on human rights. They're also far from the only nation to hold those views, Russia, parts of Africa, there's plenty of places where being gay is seen as a sin, where you risk getting beaten to death for displaying gay behavior in public. So this has nothing to do with Islam, it has to do with intolerance.

With that said, the last thing I'd do is go over there and try to impose my views on them. I just wouldn't go and don't think I'll ever be interested in going. It's just the height of stupidity to try and make a big deal out of this as if you're going to change anything about their viewpoint in a sovereign nation. Good luck with that. Just get on with it, it's a month-long thing. If you want to be gay in Qatar, go for it but don't cry foul when you end up in trouble because of it. You knew what you were getting into, and no amount of rainbow-colored armbands are going to change a thing about that.


And what's your actual solution now that the world cup is a month away? You're not changing anything. Sit down and get on with it. You don't have to watch it.

Agreed, I don't really think world cup should be a vehicle for social change , there are other better ways to do that and it shouldn't involve foreign countries.

 

[moses]

So we shouldn't only award world cups to countries that recognized same sex marriage which is less than a third of the world, don't make it too sensational .

It's not binary. That's the sensationalist approach.

 

[moses]

Agreed, I don't really think world cup should be a vehicle for social change , there are other better ways to do that and it shouldn't involve foreign countries.

You respect national boundaries and sovereignity over human rights?

 

[Red the Bear]

It's not binary. That's the sensationalist approach.

It obviously shouldn't be but I'm having difficulty understanding what you're getting at, should the world cup have not been awarded to Qatar due to their draconian LGBT laws or not, using that as the only metric.

 

[Acheron]

I don't understand how people can defend/support some of their politics and laws. The event shouldn't be held in that country to begin with precisely because of the stark cultural differences from other regions of the world.

What that secretary is basically saying is "don't be gay" and that's only one of many issues with having such an event there.

https://pledgetimes.com/a-mexican-w...nced-to-100-lashes-and-seven-years-in-prison/

 

[TheRedHearted]

Yes, but also don't ignore human rights abuses like torture etc.

Where is the torture stories?

 

[Sayros]

So I can't fundamentally disagree with something unless I have the material ability to provide an agreeable alternative?

Don't be absurd.

My point is there isn't a solution, the solution would have simply to never allow that world cup to happen there. You have every right to disagree with it, and we're on the same page btw, but I'm not silly enough to berate other people who are simply stating the obvious, you are not going to change that part of the world.

 

[moses]

Isn’t it extremely lucky for LGBT people that they can “hide” it from public view. Do you not see the problem here? What if this wasn’t possible? Like if their skin colour/appearance gave them away?

Imagine if these backward views of Qatar were held towards women or to any black/white person. What would those defending the medieval regimes in these countries be saying then?

Why is homophobia now accepted and “respected” because of a religion? Do we say the same of racism? If a religion says racism is ok, we have to respect it? Give me a break ffs. Is anyone aware of how absurd that is?

Let me remind people that homosexuality is an innate characteristic. It isn’t a choice and cannot be changed. Religion is NOT innate and is certainly a choice and it is a belief. Just as political beliefs are widely criticised, religious beliefs should be no different. This whole shut up and put up just because it’s religion is becoming tedious.

How can we ever have an adult discussion about discrimination and human rights issues in these countries if we are to just sit here and accept it because “religion”?!

“Don’t like it, don’t go” is deeply insulting to anyone who is part of one of the persecuted groups. And is almost always said by people who aren’t in said category.

This is definitely on FIFA and it should never have been held here. I, for one, would absolutely not attend this World Cup in Qatar because their entire culture is offensive to anyone who is anti discrimination. Simply put, their beliefs are wrong and dangerous. And don’t tell me they can’t be wrong because it says so in a piece of fictional text (prove to me it’s not fictional).

We are never going to get anywhere where this is concerned, since people pussy foot around the issue because they’re scared of being branded Islamophobic, as has happened multiple times in this thread. It isn’t just this one religion either that has problems where this is concerned, almost each and every one is as bad as each other.

It’s just upsetting in the extreme how people born a certain way are being told to suppress what they are in order to appease a backwards set of beliefs. As I said, thank god they have the ability to go incognito.

Well said.

 

[Red the Bear]

You respect national boundaries and sovereignity over human rights?

Yes?
Change should come from the within, im not gonna go globetrotting imposing my views on others, they themselves have agency.

Also what may be considered human rights for us may not be so for others .

 

[moses]

Where is the torture stories?

There are none. He was the one making analogies to being a guest in someone's house. It was obvious in context.

 

[redcucumber]

Isn’t it extremely lucky for LGBT people that they can “hide” it from public view. Do you not see the problem here? What if this wasn’t possible? Like if their skin colour/appearance gave them away?

Imagine if these backward views of Qatar were held towards women or to any black/white person. What would those defending the medieval regimes in these countries be saying then?

Why is homophobia now accepted and “respected” because of a religion? Do we say the same of racism? If a religion says racism is ok, we have to respect it? Give me a break ffs. Is anyone aware of how absurd that is?

Let me remind people that homosexuality is an innate characteristic. It isn’t a choice and cannot be changed. Religion is NOT innate and is certainly a choice and it is a belief. Just as political beliefs are widely criticised, religious beliefs should be no different. This whole shut up and put up just because it’s religion is becoming tedious.

How can we ever have an adult discussion about discrimination and human rights issues in these countries if we are to just sit here and accept it because “religion”?!

“Don’t like it, don’t go” is deeply insulting to anyone who is part of one of the persecuted groups. And is almost always said by people who aren’t in said category.

This is definitely on FIFA and it should never have been held here. I, for one, would absolutely not attend this World Cup in Qatar because their entire culture is offensive to anyone who is anti discrimination. Simply put, their beliefs are wrong and dangerous. And don’t tell me they can’t be wrong because it says so in a piece of fictional text (prove to me it’s not fictional).

We are never going to get anywhere where this is concerned, since people pussy foot around the issue because they’re scared of being branded Islamophobic, as has happened multiple times in this thread. It isn’t just this one religion either that has problems where this is concerned, almost each and every one is as bad as each other.

It’s just upsetting in the extreme how people born a certain way are being told to suppress what they are in order to appease a backwards set of beliefs. As I said, thank god they have the ability to go incognito.

Great post mate.

 

[TheRedHearted]

There are none. He was the one making analogies to being a guest in someone's house. It was obvious in context.

No, I madre the analogy to being a guest in someone’s home. I think you got the wires crossed

 

[calodo2003]

Yes?
Change should come from the within, im not gonna go globetrotting imposing my views on others, they themselves have agency.

Also what may be considered human rights for us may not be so for others .

So human rights are to be negated if they fly in conflict with a religion?

 

[moses]

Yes?
Change should come from the within, im not gonna go globetrotting imposing my views on others, they have agency.

Also what may be consider human rights for us may not be so for others .

Within, like South Africa, or Rwanda? I'm not making comparisons, just wondering if you never think pressure is appropriate?

The aptly named Universal declaration of Human Rights argues otherwise btw.

 

[Siorac]

So we shouldn't only award world cups to countries that recognized same sex marriage which is less than a third of the world, don't make it too sensational .

At the very least it shouldn't be awarded to countries where homosexuality is illegal. That is, where fans can be in danger of getting arrested simply for who they are.

 

[moses]

No, I madre the analogy to being a guest in someone’s home. I think you got the wires crossed

And if there was a human rights violation in that house, then call the fecking police.

 

[TheRedHearted]

And if there was a human rights violation in that house, then call the fecking police.

I asked for the torture proof that the other poster alluded to..

 

[moses]

I asked for the torture proof that the other poster alluded to..

I don't follow. Sorry.

 

[Thom Merrilin]

Yes?
Change should come from the within, im not gonna go globetrotting imposing my views on others, they themselves have agency.

Also what may be considered human rights for us may not be so for others .

While I agree with the first part of your post, I think human rights should be universal. What right does a non democratically elected official have to impose their beliefs on the general population?

 

[Red the Bear]

So human rights are to be negated if they fly in conflict with a religion?

That's not what I'm getting at and it's crazy how you peoples can't see the fault in that line of thinking which while not all was one of the contributing factors to this milineum's bigger human disaster, it hasn't been 20 years since it happened doesn't giving these backward countries freedom and democracy ring a bell.

What I'm getting at is that no matter what your personal definition of human rights are and how much they clash with a sovereign country we shouldn't interfere to try to impose them on the said sovereign country.

 

[calodo2003]

That's not what I'm getting at and it's crazy how you peoples can't see the fault in that line of thinking which while not all was one of the contributing factors to this milineum's bigger human disaster, it hasn't been 20 years since it happened doesn't giving these backward countries freedom and democracy ring a bell.

What I'm getting at is that no matter what your personal definition of human rights are and how much they clash with a sovereign country we shouldn't interfere to try to impose them on the said sovereign country.

Why is Qatar repressive towards the LGBT populace?

 

[Glorio]

If you don't like their laws and customs, don't go. Simple as.

 

[Raoul]

That's not what I'm getting at and it's crazy how you peoples can't see the fault in that line of thinking which while not all was one of the contributing factors to this milineum's bigger human disaster, it hasn't been 20 years since it happened doesn't giving these backward countries freedom and democracy ring a bell.

What I'm getting at is that no matter what your personal definition of human rights are and how much they clash with a sovereign country we shouldn't interfere to try to impose them on the said sovereign country.

If the country is attempting to leverage the popularity and cachet of hosting the WC then they should be prepared to have their human rights record scrutinized - especially if they're an non-football country who bribed their way into consideration, then proceeded to feck everyone by holding it in winter.

 

[Sayros]

Why is Qatar repressive towards the LGBT populace?

Ignorance and religion, which is kind of the same thing to me. Why is Africa or Russia repressive towards the LGBT? Let's go deeper since you're from Florida, why a large chunk of the African-American population still anti-LGBT? It's all rooted in religion, and it's nowhere near solely related to Islam.

 

[calodo2003]

Ignorance and religion, which is kind of the same thing to me. Why is Africa or Russia repressive towards the LGBT? Let's go deeper since you're from Florida, why a large chunk of the African-American population still anti-LGBT? It's all rooted in religion, and it's nowhere near solely related to Islam.

You are correct, religion is the culprit.

 

[sullydnl]

That's not what I'm getting at and it's crazy how you peoples can't see the fault in that line of thinking which while not all was one of the contributing factors to this milineum's bigger human disaster, it hasn't been 20 years since it happened doesn't giving these backward countries freedom and democracy ring a bell.

What I'm getting at is that no matter what your personal definition of human rights are and how much they clash with a sovereign country we shouldn't interfere to try to impose them on the said sovereign country.

I'm not sure what you mean by "imposing" on them? It's not like anyone here is calling for them to be invaded and "put right".

But only a moral coward would argue that people aren't allowed to expose, condemn and protests human rights violations in other countries, or attempt to place political and social pressure on those countries to stop. Let alone protest or criticise the awarding of a lucrative football tournament to them via a very corrupt and political organising body. And as far as I can see that's all anyone in this thread has done.

 

[Andy_Cole]

LGBT issues were widely reported around the Russia WC too btw.

It was fine though because they were white and not practicing Islam.

 

[calodo2003]

It was fine though because they were white and not practicing Islam.

Can you direct us to where this was stated? You have a link handy?

 

[Red the Bear]

Within, like South Africa, or Rwanda? I'm not making comparisons, just wondering if you never think pressure is appropriate?

The aptly named Universal declaration of Human Rights argues otherwise btw.

South Africa was a peculiar situation but the change was inevitable anymore, and im not understanding the comparison with Rwanda, no one intervened there?(or are you saving someone should have?)

Also that's not an argument (although I assume it's done in jest)

At the very least it shouldn't be awarded to countries where homosexuality is illegal. That is, where fans can be in danger of getting arrested simply for who they are.

So the entirety of africa minus a few countries plus most Muslim countries are exempt from getting a WC to host.

While I agree with the first part of your post, I think human rights should be universal. What right does a non democratically elected official have to impose their beliefs on the general population?

I don't disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that many cultures , people etc etc have a different definition of what constitutes a human right, i guess we don't really find out till we die.

Why is Qatar repressive towards the LGBT populace?

Culture, tradition , religion.

Why were most societies before the 20th century hostile to the LGBT, im not a sociologist.

 

[moses]

It was fine though because they were white and not practicing Islam.

Speak for yourself. It wasn't fine.

 

[calodo2003]

South Africa was a peculiar situation but the change was inevitable anymore, and im not understanding the comparison with Rwanda, no one intervened there?(or are you saving someone should have?)

Also that's not an argument (although I assume it's done in jest)


So the entirety of africa minus a few countries plus most Muslim countries are exempt from getting a WC to host.

I don't disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that many cultures , people etc etc have a different definition of what constitutes a human right, i guess we don't really find out till we die.

Culture, tradition , religion.

Why were most societies before the 20th century hostile to the LGBT, im not a sociologist.

So why did you have an issue with my post re: human rights flying in conflict with religion? Religion is the distillation of this issue, it can’t be divorced. It’s sad that a fairy tale is actively impinging upon human rights.

 

[moses]

South Africa was a peculiar situation but the change was inevitable anymore, and im not understanding the comparison with Rwanda, no one intervened there?(or are you saving someone should have?)

Also that's not an argument (although I assume it's done in jest)

My point is that perhaps intervention was morally the right thing to do, regardless of sovereignity.

 

[Vapor trail]

Neither do I. This is 100% on FIFA to choose to have a world event in a region of the world that is decades at least behind on human rights. They're also far from the only nation to hold those views, Russia, parts of Africa, there's plenty of places where being gay is seen as a sin, where you risk getting beaten to death for displaying gay behavior in public. So this has nothing to do with Islam, it has to do with intolerance.

With that said, the last thing I'd do is go over there and try to impose my views on them. I just wouldn't go and don't think I'll ever be interested in going. It's just the height of stupidity to try and make a big deal out of this as if you're going to change anything about their viewpoint in a sovereign nation. Good luck with that. Just get on with it, it's a month-long thing. If you want to be gay in Qatar, go for it but don't cry foul when you end up in trouble because of it. You knew what you were getting into, and no amount of rainbow-colored armbands are going to change a thing about that.


And what's your actual solution now that the world cup is a month away? You're not changing anything. Sit down and get on with it. You don't have to watch it.

Good post and it places responsibility in the right areas.

 

[moses]

Good post and it places responsibility in the right areas.

Responsibility for human rights is on everybody in my opinion. To hold obviously corrupt institutions as sole enforcers of morals and rights is a ridiculous, it's up to people to help progress through discussion, dissent, and protest.

 

[Red the Bear]

If the country is attempting to leverage the popularity and cachet of hosting the WC then they should be prepared to have their human rights record scrutinized - especially if they're an non-football country who bribed their way into consideration, then proceeded to feck everyone by holding it in winter.

I don't disagree, criticize them as much as you like and they should be, don't be mistaken I'm not defending them.

I'm not sure what you mean by "imposing" on them? It's not like anyone here is calling for them to be invaded and "put right".

But only a moral coward would argue that people aren't allowed to expose, condemn and protests human rights violations in other countries, or attempt to place political and social pressure on those countries to stop. Let alone protest or criticise the awarding of a lucrative football tournament to them via a very corrupt and political organising body. And as far as I can see that's all anyone in this thread has done.

Criticize them as much as you like , but for example let's say the selection progress was fair and clean and there wasn't any fatalities during the construction of their stadiums , should we not award it to them on that basis alone, im not sure.

Also in many cases such attempts at putting political pressure could backfire, it'll give them more fuel for them to build a us vs the evil west angle.

 

[ElBarto]

Suggest the thread is closed, there's nothing productive coming out of this.

You don't like what they're about, don't go, it's so utterly simple. No amount of circular arguments on caf are going to change or accomplish anything.

They have the right to live how they wish. They're hosting the world cup. They're not obligating you to go. Don't like it, don't go.

My point is that perhaps intervention was morally the right thing to do, regardless of sovereignity.

You sure your name isn't George Dubya?

 

[Scandi Red]

Look, I'm sure that some islamophobes have joined in on the criticism towards Qatar. That doesn't mean that criticizing Qatar for rampant homophobia is islamophobic. It's not that binary. We're not playing team sports here.

I can't believe that this needs to be said.

 

[Manncunian]

It was fine though because they were white and not practicing Islam.

Who said this exactly? Or did you just make it up to try to deflect from the problems being discussed in this thread?

 

[Acheron]

f you want to be gay in Qatar, go for it but don't cry foul when you end up in trouble because of it. You knew what you were getting into, and no amount of rainbow-colored armbands are going to change a thing about that.

This is the part I don't agree with it, the whole not dating, not public displays of affection or 'not being gay'. That is just so backwards thinking and in an event like a World Cup where a lot of people go out of hand with the partying and having a good time I think is asking for trouble.

So going there and 'being respectful' isn't enough or it isn't as simple as that. Like there was a female reporter who got raped in Qatar, denounced the incident and got convicted to prision and lashes. The only solution they offered was to marry her aggressor. In instances like that it goes beyond to being respectful of their culture.

 

[sullydnl]

If threads need to be productive to stay open then you might as well shut the entire forum down.