Formation change next season (4-3-3)

romufc

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Just looking at percentages doesn't tell the whole story. Bruno's accuracy is 74.6% at 2283 passing attempts. He gets on the ball at a disproportionate rate which is more comparable to defenders and deeper lying midfielders than attackers who face less pressure. Pobga on the other hand gets dispossessed more often than most strikers, which is criminal for the position he plays. Either of them can possibly play in a 4-3-3 but not both and especially not with Fred or McTominay as the third wheel.
Exactly, he attempts to get on the ball alot more. People need to decide what they want, we could have Bruno with 90% pass accuracy if we want LVG football back and we play side to side all game.

Considering with similar pass accuracy Bruno created 95 chances compared to Pogba's 25.

I wouln't mind Bruno playing where he is now with 80% passing accuracy and created the most chances in the league, no one in football can tell me a player that creates that much won't lose the ball, its high risk passes he plays which in turn helps the team create chances.

If the CM's have a 90% pass accuracy, I am sure we will keep the ball alot better.
 

Mozox

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With our squad, I can see a 4-1-4-1 before I see a 4-3-3.

Henderson
AWB - Verane - Maguire - Shaw
Fred (McTominay)
Sancho - Bruno - Pogba - Rashford
Cavani (Greenwood)​

Martial can play either wing or the top striker, Van de Beek can play anything in the middle/left, McTominay can play anything in the middle, James on the right , Lindelof/Tuanzebe/Bailly for relief in back.

That's a squad that can break down the low block because you have two playmakers in the middle and threats on either end or front and center.
This, this, this anytime, anywhere! This structure uses Pogba's and Bruno's abillities in offence and let wingers be theirselves, Sancho to play tricky i small spaces and Rashford sprinting to the flag or break to the middle. I also have high hopes for Garner to back-up McFred and take over Matic position.
 

cyberman

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Scott covers ground and carries the ball anyway. It'll just be Ole moving him wide to cover for Trippier forward runs
 

sullydnl

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I don't see how that midfield with Fred/McTom behind Bruno and Pogba doesn't get waltzed through with ease. Varane will improve the defence but even for Madrid he didn't have a midfield like that ahead of him, he's not super-human.
 

JPRouve

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Just looking at percentages doesn't tell the whole story. Bruno's accuracy is 74.6% at 2283 passing attempts. He gets on the ball at a disproportionate rate which is more comparable to defenders and deeper lying midfielders than attackers who face less pressure. Pobga on the other hand gets dispossessed more often than most strikers, which is criminal for the position he plays. Either of them can possibly play in a 4-3-3 but not both and especially not with Fred or McTominay as the third wheel.
But you are not telling the whole story for Pogba either. The main reason behind Pogba's dispossession stats is that he is the generally the main outlet when we transtion from defense to attack, he receives the ball under pressure very regularly since the opposition focuses on stopping him first and the best way to avoid that is by having several high level outlets by using both Bruno and Pogba in that role, you help both.
 

Polar

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I like the idea and have been wanting us to play 4-3-3 for years. We will need some personnel changes though.



Two glaring problems there.

1. Cavani can't play every game and we have nobody else who can play that central role.
2. Fred has a huge amount of responsibility in that lineup. Bruno and Pogba will often be in the wrong place when it comes time to defend.
Maybe Pogba isn’t in Ole’s plan? I’m also a little bit concerned if the plan is to play Pogba as LCM. It will leave a lot of space open on our left side, especially when Shaw is on his usual tours forward. A 4-3-3 formation is to me an indication that Ole is planing for a situation without Pogba and an incoming LCM (or DCM).

Our right side has been our weakest attacking side for a long time. With Bruno as RCM and Sancho as RW, our right will be the best in the league. AWB will cover their back and play on his strengths. Looks like a great move.
 

11101

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Maybe Pogba isn’t in Ole’s plan? I’m also a little bit concerned if the plan is to play Pogba as LCM. It will leave a lot of space open on our left side, especially when Shaw is on his usual tours forward. A 4-3-3 formation is to me an indication that Ole is planing for a situation without Pogba and an incoming LCM (or DCM).

Our right side has been our weakest attacking side for a long time. With Bruno as RCM and Sancho as RW, our right will be the best in the league. AWB will cover their back and play on his strengths. Looks like a great move.
I assume he is not, if this rumour is true. If we play a three in midfield it's a given Bruno will be the one allowed to roam forward into his preferred positions. The other two need defensive and ball carrying abilities, but also discipline which Pogba does not have. We would be very open to counter attacks playing like that.

A midfield 3 of McTominay - Bruno - Fred could be a solution. I remember we played it a couple of times when Pogba was injured and it worked well.
 

saivet

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I assume he is not, if this rumour is true. If we play a three in midfield it's a given Bruno will be the one allowed to roam forward into his preferred positions. The other two need defensive and ball carrying abilities, but also discipline which Pogba does not have. We would be very open to counter attacks playing like that.

A midfield 3 of McTominay - Bruno - Fred could be a solution. I remember we played it a couple of times when Pogba was injured and it worked well.
We may as well just continue in a 4231 if the midfield trio is McT, Bruno and Fred.
 

11101

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We may as well just continue in a 4231 if the midfield trio is McT, Bruno and Fred.
If the rumour is true then Ole must know about an incoming DM. There's no other way it can work.
 

saivet

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If the rumour is true then Ole must know about an incoming DM. There's no other way it can work.
You'd think so, but I've got a feeling he would try and mould either McT or Fred for that role which I don't think will work. We've only been linked with Rice and even then it sounds like the link is more to try and get him while selling Lingard, rather than there being concrete interest this summer.

Personally, I think it's something he's considering but won't actually go ahead with.
 

The-Natural

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Change to the formation absolutely crucial for next year. As to whether we have the manager and coaching staff to actually execute it is another matter.

We continue with the 4-2-3-1 and the writing is on the wall in my opinion.
 

RedSky

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Freds good enough to play the DM role, he wouldn't be the best option we could get but he'd muddle through for a season.

The big issue is if we're playing Bruno and Pogba in the middle it means that we're going to need both to up their defensive game a tad. We all know Pogbas weaknesses, lazy on the ball, often gets it nicked off him, but he is decent at tackling at least. Bruno is a bit of the opposite in that he's always busy putting pressure but his defensive numbers really are low in terms of tackling success. But that might be because he plays higher up the pitch where the opponent has more available passing options. It could work though, and I think having Bruno and Pogba playing closer together on the pitch is a good decision.

It would mean the ball would be going through the middle of the pitch slightly higher up the pitch as well which would help our forwards.
 

redshaw

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The games I saw for Sporting, Bruno played a slightly deeper role doing more midfield work and would pick up the ball for more shots outside the box. He did a bit of everything for them.
 

Lee565

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Can only see it working if bruno is moved into a inside left winger like eriksen played with spurs at times or in a false 9 position with the likes of sancho, martial, rashford and Greenwood deployed as wide forwards.

Bruno and pogba in the same midfield seems like a nightmare for the covering defensive midfielder.
 

romufc

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Can only see it working if bruno is moved into a inside left winger like eriksen played with spurs at times or in a false 9 position with the likes of sancho, martial, rashford and Greenwood deployed as wide forwards.

Bruno and pogba in the same midfield seems like a nightmare for the covering defensive midfielder.
This makes 0 sense whatsoever.

Bruno has never played in that inside left role.
Brunos previous coaches have said his best position is the 8, also played there for Sporting.

Everyone raves about how well pogba does for France when he is playing with a DM and Griezman who is similar to Bruno.
 

Polar

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Can only see it working if bruno is moved into a inside left winger like eriksen played with spurs at times or in a false 9 position with the likes of sancho, martial, rashford and Greenwood deployed as wide forwards.

Bruno and pogba in the same midfield seems like a nightmare for the covering defensive midfielder.
Have seen Bruno played inside right winger on the national team.
 

OleTheGreat

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I'm sure with the addition of Varane, Ole will be more convinced that we are secure at the back and that means a more attacking formation with the likes of Pogba and Bruno as 2 #8s. We definitely need a defensive midfielder to keep things in check and I personally believe we can get Calvin Philips this summer window. I'm sure Declan Rice or Camavinga would be amazing additions but judging by things at West Ham and Camavinga wanting to play at La Liga, we should go and get Calvin Philips from Leeds. He's fast and pushes for the ball all day long and is pretty decent at playing decent passes and can keep the shape. With his pace and that of Varane's and also the calmness of Maguire, we can push forward and get the front 5 involved more often in games. I cannot wait for Rashford, Martial, Cavani, Sancho, Greenwood, Pogba and Bruno to get going this upcoming season. I hope we somehow manage to get a defensive midfielder by the end of this summer window because that will truly gel this team together and unleash our attacking strength.
 

zenith

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No way does a team work with bruno and pogba as 8s. It takes away bruno's major strength which is his goals and assists and pogba is far too unreliable with the ball. Besides, why do even account for pogba when all he wants to do is leave the club. Surely a player like that will have motivation issues.

I don't believe ole will fully switch to a 433 formation, instead he might selectively deploy it, either against weaker teams or mid game where we need more creativity. This might see someone like VDB play just ahead of Mctominay with bruno as the most advanced.

If ole can get VDB to be effective in that role (and both player and coach are capable of that) then we may have an alternative solution to our creativity and ball retention issues.

Still expect McFred to start in the bigger games though.
 

Ace

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Defensive midfielders (in a midfield three) are typically the most tactically sound players on the pitch. Organized, communicative, disciplined, effective, accurate, aware…

Fred is missing nearly every trait required to play as a defensive mid. Putting him in that position also removes aggressive pressing and running (his best qualities?) from his game by asking him to stay home.

If we are serious about a 4-3-3, Fred should be used off the bench for Pogba as a more defensive option on the left side of midfield.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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It works if we play VDB or Fred or McT instead of Pogba. But not with Pogba & Bruno together except against the lesser teams. Every 433 always need the holding mid, the CM who offers both discipline and bit of freedom to go forward and another midfield that needs full freedom. Both Bruno and Pogba want to be the midfielder that has lot of freedom and need that freedom to get the best out of them so in order word if we play both then it lacks balance and the balance must be coming from somewhere else like Pep uses his full backs as inverted full backs. When Pep uses Silva and KDB, he tends to have Fernandinho and two of his full backs to cover the midfield when those two go forward. Are we going to sacrifice Shaw's talent and his ability going forward and overlap and turn him into inverted full back? I don't think so.

It will be interesting to see what Ole has in planning for this 433, may be he is the genius.
 

Highfather_24

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I get your point though, he needs someone with more of a range of passing in order to be effective alongside him. That was kind of my point. To compliment Bruno and Pogba in a 433, you'd need the complete midfielder, who can shield, defend and control the game.
I agree. In order to balance Pogba and Bruno, you need a complete midfielder behind them. Someone who can shield the defence, as well as control the tempo of the game. Someone like Roy Keane, Busquets or Carrick. A Pirlo/Jorginho type who can dictate the game but weak defensively, or a Makalele/Essien/Rice type, who can defend well but cant control the tempo, wouldnt fit well. Midfielders need to provide defensive solidarity, set the tempo and be creative. We have the creative types(Pogba, Bruno, VdB). We have the defensive types(Fred, McT). We need a link player, a regista. And we need to stop the Pogba/Bruno in the same team experiment, it hurts the balance of the team.

Pogba/Bruno ---- McT/Fred
--------------DLP/Garner

We need that deep lying playmaker, a player similar to Jorginho, Pirlo, old Scholes, Kroos etc. If that player is more complete and is adept defensively, that's ever better. Think Carrick, Veratti, Alonso, Busquets etc.
 

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personly I think taking Bruno out of the number 10 position would be a mistake, people forget just how much we struggled creatively before we bought him.
 

DJ_21

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No way does a team work with bruno and pogba as 8s. It takes away bruno's major strength which is his goals and assists and pogba is far too unreliable with the ball. Besides, why do even account for pogba when all he wants to do is leave the club. Surely a player like that will have motivation issues.

I don't believe ole will fully switch to a 433 formation, instead he might selectively deploy it, either against weaker teams or mid game where we need more creativity. This might see someone like VDB play just ahead of Mctominay with bruno as the most advanced.

If ole can get VDB to be effective in that role (and both player and coach are capable of that) then we may have an alternative solution to our creativity and ball retention issues.

Still expect McFred to start in the bigger games though.
Fernandes played as a 8 for sporting and still racked up the numbers for goals and assist… obviously it’s a much easier league but Fernandes will have awareness to play that position and he is a work horse so he’ll help out tracking back. I think it would work more though if we signed a world class DM
 

r0663664

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Actually Pogba is a perfect DM if he stays discipline. He can spray passes all day from left to right, right to left and balls over the ball. With Varane and Maguire covering him behind, we will be scoring goals for fun. If he can protect the back 4, he will be player of the year.
 

Sean_RedDevil

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I agree. In order to balance Pogba and Bruno, you need a complete midfielder behind them. Someone who can shield the defence, as well as control the tempo of the game. Someone like Roy Keane, Busquets or Carrick. A Pirlo/Jorginho type who can dictate the game but weak defensively, or a Makalele/Essien/Rice type, who can defend well but cant control the tempo, wouldnt fit well. Midfielders need to provide defensive solidarity, set the tempo and be creative. We have the creative types(Pogba, Bruno, VdB). We have the defensive types(Fred, McT). We need a link player, a regista. And we need to stop the Pogba/Bruno in the same team experiment, it hurts the balance of the team.

Pogba/Bruno ---- McT/Fred
--------------DLP/Garner

We need that deep lying playmaker, a player similar to Jorginho, Pirlo, old Scholes, Kroos etc. If that player is more complete and is adept defensively, that's ever better. Think Carrick, Veratti, Alonso, Busquets etc.
Ruben Neves is available for 35m.

- He knows the english football since 4 years.
- He is a leader.
- He can pass the ball so well.
 

Irwin99

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It's interesting if true. Retaining the ball might be an issue but the best football United played under Ole was that spell when he was temporary manager and had Matic, Herrera and Pogba in the 3.

The cynic in me thinks we'll revert back to the counter attacking 4-2-3-1 if things go pear shaped.
 

Highfather_24

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Ruben Neves is available for 35m.

- He knows the english football since 4 years.
- He is a leader.
- He can pass the ball so well.
Good shout. I like Neves, would do well in a midfield pairing with Fred/McT and Bruno.

Neves--Fred
------Bruno

Or

--------Neves
---Fred-----Bruno
 

edcunited1878

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You defend as a team and that means the central midfield have to defend as a unit.

Having prime Rio and Vida against an open midfield and too much space to account for ahead and behind them will still cause issues.

The 4231 will not be abandoned. But a 433 or a 442 diamond could and should be sent out much more.

A 433 can also accommodate James on the left while Rashford is out to increase the pressing and defensive efforts to balance out a potential left side of Shaw and Pogba.

Another feather in Ole's cap if he and coaches can get this to function. I also think the new coach from Chelsea, Ramsey, will be influential in this transition.
 

Dve

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4-2-3-1

................. De Gea

Trippier - Varane - Maguire - Shaw

............... Pogba - Fred

Greenwood - Fernandes - Sancho

................... Cavani



4-3-3


................. De Gea

Bissaka - Varane - Maguire - Shaw

Fernandes - McTominay - Pogba
(Donny)...... (Matic/Garner) - (Hannibal)

Sancho....... Martial....... Rashford (James, Elanga)
 

Longshanks

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Actually Pogba is a perfect DM if he stays discipline. He can spray passes all day from left to right, right to left and balls over the ball. With Varane and Maguire covering him behind, we will be scoring goals for fun. If he can protect the back 4, he will be player of the year.
Have you ever watched pogba play in a deeper position before? He doesn't have the positional sense, or the discipline or the defensive abilities to be a defensive midfielders.

He also doesn't have the intelligence to know when to play simple and know when to pass through the lines or ping one over the top.

Pogba as a lone DM would be an absolute car crash.
 

Dve

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Have you ever watched pogba play in a deeper position before? He doesn't have the positional sense, or the discipline or the defensive abilities to be a defensive midfielders.

He also doesn't have the intelligence to know when to play simple and know when to pass through the lines or ping one over the top.

Pogba as a lone DM would be an absolute car crash.
Yes, that´s a terrible idea. You cannot teach an old dog how to bark. I like when Pogba receives the ball in the deep to play those long passes, but he must have a free role in the midfield.
 

Gator Nate

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This, this, this anytime, anywhere! This structure uses Pogba's and Bruno's abillities in offence and let wingers be theirselves, Sancho to play tricky i small spaces and Rashford sprinting to the flag or break to the middle. I also have high hopes for Garner to back-up McFred and take over Matic position.
I would really like to see Garner pick up one more year on loan - he really seemed to grow the second half of last year. Another stint like that and he'll really be ready to do things. But maybe he is ready now. I think he could handle DM in a 4-1-4-1, as could Fred, with the understanding that he is solely there for defense. I think it's a slight waste of McTominay, who could better replace Bruno or Pogba in that 4-1-4-1 for an easier game to give the others rest.

There's a real problem playing Pogba and Bruno together, be it in a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1. In either formation, you're going to lose something from one or the other.

But maybe Ole has a solution. Sounds like he's headed to a 4-3-3.
 

RashyGiggsy

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Also, compare to Pogba who plays CM, Bruno pass accuracy is 78% and Pogba is 83% which is similar to KDB at 83% but no one talks about them losing the ball too much.

Bruno loses it 5% more but created 95 chances last season compared to 25 of Pogba. Now this is not me doing a Bruno or Pogba but even Mctominay has a 84% passing accuracy.

The problem is our midfield as a whole gives away the ball too much, compare that to Gundogan who has a 90% pass completion. We need everyone in our midfield to keep the ball better not just Bruno.
Perhaps, surprisingly Fred is actually the midfielder at United with the best passing accuracy. Watching him play in the Copa America, I gained a new respect for his play. United's problem with bringing the ball out under pressure, I believe had little to do with Fred and more to do with AWB, Fernandes, Pogba (staying too long on the ball), Lindelof, and McTominay. Perhaps with Varane and Henderson in goal and if AWB improves on the ball, Fred can be the DM we have been looking for.

https://fbref.com/en/players/b853e0ad/scout/365_euro/Fred-Scouting-Report
 

Brexit_Brigade

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Far too many posts saying Fred, McTominay or even Pogba (!) can play as the holding midfielder if this formation change takes place.

It'll be a disaster. The most important thing you need to play that position is the discipline to hold your position with the ball, and be in the right place to screen the defence without it. None of those guys are anywhere near qualified. Fred is a ball-chaser who needs someone behind him, McTominay is really only good at making late runs into the box, and Pogba simply can't track opponents.

New DM, Fernandes as the most advanced of the 3, and Van de Beek (hopefully) or Fred next to him. Only way this works, and could actually be a very good setup especially with Sancho's creativity from wide.
 

SAF is the GOAT

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If you've seen the interview Flex did in his channel with the Norwegian journo Per-Atle Karlsen - you'll be very positive in that regard.
He said that he spoke with Ole thru last season and Ole wants united to play higher in the pitch, play attacking football. I really loved to hear what's been said in that interview. a lot of great quotes and sayings.