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KennyBurner

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Exactly what I thought. This tendency to associate Fred with McTominay basically due to the amount of times they have played together for us is what hurts Fred's reputation. It is really Fred doing most of the work in midfield and Mctominay doing a terrible job at supporting him. I'm sure Fred will be able to perform so much better when he doesn't have to play with McTominay consistently.
Bingo!!! Its like a dirty stain on Fred that he cant quite get rid of. I just read a post on here that writes Fred isnt good at progressing the ball and most of the balll progression comes from Shaw and Maguire?!?! :houllier: If you paired Fred with a DM that is also comfortable receiving the ball and actually also wants it during the buildup you would see more from Fred all over the pitch.
 

laughtersassassin

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Bingo!!! Its like a dirty stain on Fred that he cant quite get rid of. I just read a post on here that writes Fred isnt good at progressing the ball and most of the balll progression comes from Shaw and Maguire?!?! :houllier: If you paired Fred with a DM that is also comfortable receiving the ball and actually also wants it during the buildup you would see more from Fred all over the pitch.
Didn't age well this. Playing with Casimero last night and was absolutely awful.

Did less than nothing.

He just isn't very good.

To me he is insanely erratic on a football pitch.

At his best he is good. And at his worst he is truly awful.

He certainly isn't a DM but he also doesn't contribute enough going forward to be a box to box. His passing range is a major reason for this.

Our Midfield pivot needs a serious revamp. It's not even close to good enough
 
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Josh 76

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Didn't age well this. Playing with Casimero last night and was absolutely awful.

Did less than nothing.

He just isn't very good.

To me he is insanely erratic on a football pitch.

At his best he is good. And at his worst he is truly awful.

He certainly isn't a DM but he also doesn't contribute enough going forward to be a box to box.

Our Midfield pivot needs a serious revamp. It's not even close to good enough
Well summed up
 

Walrus

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I didnt see the final so no idea how he played, but some of the posts in here have honestly been cringeworthy in how much they are overrating Fred. If we are being realistic, he is a workhorse/water carrier. He works hard and makes good defensive contributions, but he is a genuine liability on the ball. He often plays himself or teammates into trouble, and offers pretty much zero in an attacking sense.

The best way to sum it up for me is this: with McTominay, I can see how if you put him next to someone like Carrick, you would have a really strong midfield pair. WIth Fred, I really have no idea what sort of midfielder you would need to put him next to to have a good overall midfield. As a previous poster said - he is not a DM, but his all-round game isnt good enough to be a box-to-box player. He is too one-dimensional to play in a two-man midfield. Very good at what he does, but what he does is too limited.
 

laughtersassassin

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I didnt see the final so no idea how he played, but some of the posts in here have honestly been cringeworthy in how much they are overrating Fred. If we are being realistic, he is a workhorse/water carrier. He works hard and makes good defensive contributions, but he is a genuine liability on the ball. He often plays himself or teammates into trouble, and offers pretty much zero in an attacking sense.

The best way to sum it up for me is this: with McTominay, I can see how if you put him next to someone like Carrick, you would have a really strong midfield pair. WIth Fred, I really have no idea what sort of midfielder you would need to put him next to to have a good overall midfield. As a previous poster said - he is not a DM, but his all-round game isnt good enough to be a box-to-box player. He is too one-dimensional to play in a two-man midfield. Very good at what he does, but what he does is too limited.
Spot on. Not a DM. Not well rounded enough to be a box to box alongside a DM.

Imagine our Midfield was Rice and Fred for instance? I'd feel for our attack because they will be starved of quality passes.

We have to be very careful. We are at risk of going into next season with an absolutely shocking Midfield considering the level we supposedly want to be at.

And personally it would be such a shame to let our Midfield curtail the upcoming season.
 

Ali Dia

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How is 4 good games and 1 bad one “erratic”?

If the ratio was reversed to McT it would 4 bad games and 1 good game “but I can see what he offers the team”

A few of you guys were clearly there waiting with the knives out waiting for any poor game or even a mistake on the ball and you do the same for him at club level too. Madness.

He was shite last night. Brazil were shite last night. It happens.
 

laughtersassassin

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How is 4 good games and 1 bad one “erratic”?

If the ratio was reversed to McT it would 4 bad games and 1 good game “but I can see what he offers the team”

A few of you guys were clearly there waiting with the knives out waiting for any poor game or even a mistake on the ball and you do the same for him at club level too. Madness.

He was shite last night. Brazil were shite last night. It happens.
Erratic in style. I've seen enough from Fred over the years that it will be very hard for him to change my opinion on him.

His game is inherently flawed in my opinion and needs major improvement. I'd love for him to do it but I don't see it happening.

His best seasons still aren't good enough. Not even close.

Not sure why McTominay gets brought into everything? He isn't good enough either.

I support United and it's just my and many peoples opinion that we are kidding ourselves if we think we are becoming a top top team playing Fred or McTominay every week.
 

Walrus

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A few of you guys were clearly there waiting with the knives out waiting for any poor game or even a mistake on the ball and you do the same for him at club level too. Madness.

He was shite last night. Brazil were shite last night. It happens.
I havent watched any of the Copa America games. In fact from my POV what I have seen is people flocking to this thread to pronounce Fred some sort of world beater, and displaying his performances as irrefutable proof that McTominay is dragging Fred down, that it is now clear that Fred is twice the player Scott is etc etc.

My relatively few comments in this thread have essentially been a reaction to the reaction to Fred's international performances. Pretty much the opposite to what you are suggesting.
 

He'sRaldo

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Ole on the Fredster


"I have to put particular praise to Fred," Ole told us. "I’ve got to say, at the end of the season, he got an injury in the last league game. We thought he wouldn’t make it for the [Europa League] final as he didn’t train the whole week before our own final, and he’s just put his head down and worked really hard.

“He trained the day before the final and came on and played. He’s just played throughout the summer and that’s some going. Some players with that injury wouldn’t be in training football now. He’s been a credit to Manchester United and himself in the way he’s conducted himself.”
Ole talking about players playing through injury just pisses me off at this point.
 

Ekeke

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Was booked straight away, Brazil lost the midfield in the first half and subbed out at half time. Brazil did much better in the 2nd half was an extra attacker on instead of him
 

Cloud7

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I havent watched any of the Copa America games. In fact from my POV what I have seen is people flocking to this thread to pronounce Fred some sort of world beater, and displaying his performances as irrefutable proof that McTominay is dragging Fred down, that it is now clear that Fred is twice the player Scott is etc etc.

My relatively few comments in this thread have essentially been a reaction to the reaction to Fred's international performances. Pretty much the opposite to what you are suggesting.
Neither of them should be starting for us, and I feel confident in saying that we won't ever win anything of significance, or become a properly dominant team, while either of them are still starting.
 

Godfather

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Was booked straight away, Brazil lost the midfield in the first half and subbed out at half time. Brazil did much better in the 2nd half was an extra attacker on instead of him
Were you hard typing this? Be honest
 

tjb

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I didn't understand the praise he was getting prior to the final. The key weaknesses I saw from him were still there. Casemiro and the full backs were exclusively the ones helping to build up from the back, in possession Brazil were avoiding him. Which is the same at United, with the main difference being, they had enough quality for this to actually work. What I saw in the tournament was Fred free enough from responsibility in possession and therefore having more of a licence to increase his progressive passes( which was nice to see). However the big problem with him was still exposed, even if we have other players building up, in bigger games where the Tempo and the press is more aggressive and where the build up requires as much support as possible, Fred showed he still can't provide that. It's a factor that could see us lose or draw some bigger games if not handles.
 

youmeletsfly

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Reading this thread I can only say that fans these days are out of their fecking minds.
Just imagine the level you need to be at to just wait for a bad/good game and come here to gloat/moan about a particular player.
I don't mind the posters that do it here and there, but I do mind the caftards that really do this day in - day out. It's pathetic, absolutely pathetic.

You can't even discuss a player properly because one will surely come out with the "Y is better/worse" comparison in less than 5 minutes.

In regards to Fred vs MCT, it's none of their fault ffs. Both of them are played out of position at United and both of them together expose themselves even more on the pitch.
 

Josh 76

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I didn't understand the praise he was getting prior to the final. The key weaknesses I saw from him were still there. Casemiro and the full backs were exclusively the ones helping to build up from the back, in possession Brazil were avoiding him. Which is the same at United, with the main difference being, they had enough quality for this to actually work. What I saw in the tournament was Fred free enough from responsibility in possession and therefore having more of a licence to increase his progressive passes( which was nice to see). However the big problem with him was still exposed, even if we have other players building up, in bigger games where the Tempo and the press is more aggressive and where the build up requires as much support as possible, Fred showed he still can't provide that. It's a factor that could see us lose or draw some bigger games if not handles.
The problem is every team will double up on Our creative players and leave Fred free, knowing he can’t shoot or pass forward. Until this isn’t resolved, all the Sanchos and Varnens of this world won’t make a difference.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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I didnt see the final so no idea how he played, but some of the posts in here have honestly been cringeworthy in how much they are overrating Fred. If we are being realistic, he is a workhorse/water carrier. He works hard and makes good defensive contributions, but he is a genuine liability on the ball. He often plays himself or teammates into trouble, and offers pretty much zero in an attacking sense.

The best way to sum it up for me is this: with McTominay, I can see how if you put him next to someone like Carrick, you would have a really strong midfield pair. WIth Fred, I really have no idea what sort of midfielder you would need to put him next to to have a good overall midfield. As a previous poster said - he is not a DM, but his all-round game isnt good enough to be a box-to-box player. He is too one-dimensional to play in a two-man midfield. Very good at what he does, but what he does is too limited.
Couldn’t disagree more. Your description of Fred is far more befitting of McTominay who generally just isn’t good enough on the ball. Fred and Carrick would be a brilliant pairing.,
 

Ekeke

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Couldn’t disagree more. Your description of Fred is far more befitting of McTominay who generally just isn’t good enough on the ball. Fred and Carrick would be a brilliant pairing.,
Carrick and Fletcher would still be a better pair for me with Fletcher chipping in 3-5 goals in his better seasons. Carrick was good enough defensively that his partner could get forward, like with Scholes or Fletcher. He didnt need a Fred next to him. McTominay might be a better partner for him for the same reason
 

KennyBurner

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Didn't age well this. Playing with Casimero last night and was absolutely awful.

Did less than nothing.

He just isn't very good.

To me he is insanely erratic on a football pitch.

At his best he is good. And at his worst he is truly awful.

He certainly isn't a DM but he also doesn't contribute enough going forward to be a box to box. His passing range is a major reason for this.

Our Midfield pivot needs a serious revamp. It's not even close to good enough
Nothing really to take away from that game yesterday. Only two players were good, Neymar and Di maria. No structure and only chaos yesterday which saw him on a yellow card nad needing to be removed.

I'll also note that Brasil need to get rid of Tite and get a modern european coach. That game was seriously worse than anything Ive seen. Even Afcon games have more structure.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Carrick and Fletcher would still be a better pair for me with Fletcher chipping in 3-5 goals in his better seasons. Carrick was good enough defensively that his partner could get forward, like with Scholes or Fletcher. He didnt need a Fred next to him. McTominay might be a better partner for him for the same reason
Fletcher was better than both Fred and McTominay so it’s a moot point really. Frankly McTominay is nothing like Fletch aside from being white and Scottish and scoring the occasional goal. He doesn’t have the same pace, energy or quality on the ball. Fred at least is brilliant at providing energy, winning the ball and despite his erratic play at times, he’s a far better passer of the ball than McTominay. I think in the modern game where pressing is much more intense, Carrick and Fred would be miles better.
 

Walrus

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Couldn’t disagree more. Your description of Fred is far more befitting of McTominay who generally just isn’t good enough on the ball. Fred and Carrick would be a brilliant pairing.,
I agree with Ekeke's response;

Carrick and Fletcher would still be a better pair for me with Fletcher chipping in 3-5 goals in his better seasons. Carrick was good enough defensively that his partner could get forward, like with Scholes or Fletcher. He didnt need a Fred next to him. McTominay might be a better partner for him for the same reason
As you say @TrustInJanuzaj it is a moot point as we dont have Fletcher, or Carrick. In fact I think one of the biggest mistakes over the years is when teams try to replace like-for-like a great player once they leave. You will never find another Scholes (for instance), that is why teams have to move on and evolve - playing to the strengths of the players they actually have, or can acquire.

Anyway I digress - I stand by my original point which is that I do not see any player you can put next to Fred and make a balanced two-man midfield, he is too limited. Fred and Carrick would be overly defensive for most games, and the entire creative/attacking impetus would be on Carrick. If I am playing against that midfield then I just tell my team to let Fred have the ball in the middle, but close down and mark Carrick tightly. How is Fred going to hurt you? He doesnt dribble or carry the ball, he doesnt pass particularly well. He simply has nothing in his arsenal to be a threat to the opposition and can largely be ignored. In a three-man midfield you might be able to get away with this, but in a two-man midfield less so, as it puts too much responsibility on their partner.

Compare this to McTominay (who I dont claim to be the perfect player or world class either), Scott is more willing to run with the ball and support the attack, and presents a goal threat himself around the opponents box. If you simply let him have the ball then he will carry it forward into a more dangerous attacking area. Fred will probably just pass it backwards or sideways, and maybe gift the opposition a chance in the process if his pass is poor enough!

I dont want to sound overly harsh here, and I certainly dont want to claim that McTominay is vastly superior footballer to Fred, I think they are relatively similar, its just that McTominay (amongst other things) is a better fit for a 4-2-3-1/two-man midfield for me, whereas I struggle to see how we can realistically fit Fred in.
 

TheReligion

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I think the biggest issue is neither Fred or Mctominay;

a) Excell at something in particular that make them an asset to the side

b) Compliment each other in their style of play

When we play then together we are basically accepting distribution from that area of the pitch is going to be lacking, hence why we have dropped Pogba in when we know we'll have the majority of possession and need to create from deep areas.

I think we often get away with Fred and Mctominay when Maguire is playing as he will carry the ball forward and play a progressive pass, essentially bypassing the two of them with the ball. If we genuinely want to see an improvement next season, particularly in our style of play, signing a deep lying playmaker, who can assist defensively, would make all the difference.

I don't think we actually need a pure DM as such, just someone who can retain and progress the ball in that area of the pitch much better than Fred and Mctominay. If we can find someone who can do the defensive stuff to a good level, or young enough to develop it, great.
 

stevoc

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Erratic in style. I've seen enough from Fred over the years that it will be very hard for him to change my opinion on him.

His game is inherently flawed in my opinion and needs major improvement. I'd love for him to do it but I don't see it happening.

His best seasons still aren't good enough. Not even close.

Not sure why McTominay gets brought into everything? He isn't good enough either.

I support United and it's just my and many peoples opinion that we are kidding ourselves if we think we are becoming a top top team playing Fred or McTominay every week.
I have been wondering about this also, I reckon the problem is when you vastly overrate Fred you need a player to tear down to make Fred seem better than he is in comparison and that's where McTominay comes in. Deep down you know there's only so much you can really say to big up Fred before you run out of attributes he's actually good at. So you just continually shit over McTominay at every opportunity to try to mask that Fred while a better player than McTominay is still a fairly limited player himself.
 

laughtersassassin

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I have been wondering about this also, I reckon the problem is when you vastly overrate Fred you need a player to tear down to make Fred seem better than he is in comparison and that's where McTominay comes in. Deep down you know there's only so much you can really say to big up Fred before you run out of attributes he's actually good at. So you just continually shit over McTominay at every opportunity to try to mask that Fred while a better player than McTominay is still a fairly limited player himself.
Yeah I'd agree with this.

The comments of "But McTominay is worse just seem like deflection"

It doesn't matter that McTominay is worse. The problem is they both play week in week out when at a top team neither of them should
 

Guapa

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Barely good enough to be a bench player for us.Not the required level for Utd.
 

Highfather_24

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Ole talking about players playing through injury just pisses me off at this point.
This and his in-game management are two of my biggest problems with him. Further down the list is ability and instilling a winner's mentality in the team. I'm not Ole out though.
 
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