There are different kinds of playmaking. Players like Busquets or Xabi Alonso have a significant playmaking role, just not directly in the final third. If anything, De Jong's playmaking is more expansive and incisive in comparison.
Frenkie De Jong | Performances
- Thread starter Cait Sith
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Let me also add that it was after Wijnaldum dropped back into the central midfield in the second half that Netherland got a foot in the midfield. Prior to that, England were on top despite their horrible midfield.
Alonso is a playmaker, very different from Busquet though. You can't even compare him to Busquet, let alone Frenkie.
There are playmaking no 6 such as Alonso, Pirlo, a prime Sahin until injury ruined him, Bastian etc and there are holding midfielders such as Rodri, Busquet, Frenkie etc.
There are also playmaking no 8 such as Xavi, Modric, Kroos, Pjanic, Bastian etc and there box-box no 8 midfielders such as Vidal, Ramsey etc.
The clever line breaking passes from Busquets where visible to anyone who watched Barca games. Only people who barely watched Barca called him overrated because "hurr durr Xavi and Iniesta".
De Jong's passing is not elite and I agree he is never a playmaker, he excells under pressure and can slip through the ball to the next advanced midfielder. Has more sideway passes than Busquets and roams around more which he can't do as a single holding mid in a 4-3-3 at Barca. Overall a good Busquets replacement for the way Barca play but absolutely overrated when people call him the best midfielder in the world, not even Busquets in his prime was ever called that and Busquets dominated a CL final straight out of the 3rd division. Also I don't see enough penetration in the Barca midfield when paired with Arthur. Xavi and Iniesta had those "deep midfielder" traits like being press resistent, positional awareness and discipline, workrate etc. but at the same time had once in a lifetime final ball, throughball (and in Iniesta's case dribbling) abilities to carve open defenses. On the other hand, having 2 young and press resistent midfielders might prevent Barca from getting ripped to shreds away from home time and time again.
De Jong's passing is not elite and I agree he is never a playmaker, he excells under pressure and can slip through the ball to the next advanced midfielder. Has more sideway passes than Busquets and roams around more which he can't do as a single holding mid in a 4-3-3 at Barca. Overall a good Busquets replacement for the way Barca play but absolutely overrated when people call him the best midfielder in the world, not even Busquets in his prime was ever called that and Busquets dominated a CL final straight out of the 3rd division. Also I don't see enough penetration in the Barca midfield when paired with Arthur. Xavi and Iniesta had those "deep midfielder" traits like being press resistent, positional awareness and discipline, workrate etc. but at the same time had once in a lifetime final ball, throughball (and in Iniesta's case dribbling) abilities to carve open defenses. On the other hand, having 2 young and press resistent midfielders might prevent Barca from getting ripped to shreds away from home time and time again.
I think everybody sees that Frenkie has things he need to improve, long passes for instance, but you paint a picture that isn't realistic. Whenever he plays the team starts to flow, it comes together because he knows how to play in between the lines. Sure he needs to improve but everyone can see the world class potential
Wait. You also think Busquets isn't a deep lying playmaker? haha You do realise there are playmakers further up the pitch that may often make the final pass or create a dribble that may create the final chance (think Ozil at is peak or Messi). Then teams will often have a deep lying playmaker that controls the tempo and flow of the game, ensuring the ball is easily transferred from the defensive third to the final third. Often they will touch the ball more than any other.
Making a long pass or not making a long pass doesn't determine that. There's more than one way to skin a cat. Eg. Scholes could do it all but Xabi Alonso had far better long passing then he's short passing. Then Busquets who rarely uses his passing range and sticks to shorter incisive passes.
But there's probably no point continuing this if you don't think Busquets is/was Barcelona's playmaker (controller) for a long time especially after Xavi's influence reduced. We're watching different sports.
Oh ok. I get it now. Kaglish thinks if you aren't pinging 60 yard balls you're not a playmaker. We can all move on now.
He probably also thinks Roy Keane didn't run United games through his peak by simple incisive passing.
Your role classification is too rigid. There's a lot of overlap between categories, and differences among the players you put in a same category. Playmaking of midfielders like Busquets and De Jong is all about clever line-breaking passes, or picking a simple but unexpected pass because they see things fraction of second ahead of everyone. De Jong's athleticism and mobility also allow him more area of influence.
Busquet isn't a playmaker but with Xavi and Iniesta gone, he has assumed the role but still not good enough hence why Barca and Spain have been struggling since the decline of Xavi.
The likes of Eriksen isn't pinging 60yard passes, likewise David Silva whom I have always opined as a playmaker who should be deployed in the central midfield on the previous forum I was on. A playmaker leaves space in his wake. I mean you will just notice the amount of space they seem to exude around them regardless of how tight the midfield is. I really don't know how can I put it.
Vidal’s best > Rakitic’s best
But yes you are right, all three are past their prime.
Honestly think you just have a different definition of the term playmaker than everyone else on here.
Playmaking isn't hoarding the ball though. That I know.
Let me also say the likes of Henderson and Wijnaldum are not world class nor incisive but are decent playmakers.
Henderson? Now you're just trolling.
Yeah. Not the most glamorous, technical nor incisive and can be overwhelmed against solid midfield but he is.
If you think Wijnaldum and Henderson are playmakers,we definitely just have a different definition of the term.
That's of course true. Who said that? Quite a bizarre statement. He can develop in one of the best maybe. I hope so of course. Not even close at the moment though.
Pirlo.
Football players talking about football players mostly talk bollocks. They just go with what's popular.Pirlo.
A suspicious mind could turn the Redknapp comment into an insult
I make my teammates look good as well. Though mostly the opposition players..
Vidal's style was never suited to Barcelona is more my point. He's a bit of a headless chicken when typically Barca's midfield is more technical and composed.
Vidal at his best would start for any club in the world.
Regardless, they're all great players. What does it matter that they're past their best? Ronaldo and Messi are past their best too.
Those two might be past their best but they're still contributing at otherworldly levels. Guys like Rakitic aren't.
Vidal at his best would have about the same chance of starting in 2010/11 Barcelona XI midfield trio under Guardiola as anyone participating in this thread, namely close to zero.
Vidal at his best would start for any club in the world.
Regardless, they're all great players. What does it matter that they're past their best? Ronaldo and Messi are past their best too.
Barca midfield trio from 2010-11 is not the Barca standard. It's just exceptional team and once in a generation midfield. Midfield before and after shows that and Vidal is good enough to play and his peak wasn't in 2010-11 anyways.
I meant now and it was an hyperbole anyway
Point was that at his peak Vidal was undoubtedly world class. He's still great, was the Barcelona midfielder that stepped up the most in big games last season.
Wijnaldum a playmaker? you've lost the plot.
Looked like William Carvalho was toying around with his 14 year old albino son. That 30 meters sprint to complain to the ref about an handball that touched Ruben Dias' knee was the best thing he did tonight.
If only he was as good at playing forwards passes as he is at cheating, acting and complaining to the referee...
If only he was as good at playing forwards passes as he is at cheating, acting and complaining to the referee...
Yeah Barca should be looking for a refund....
Nah he's a great player. Just a big cheater too and it doesn't help he has a punchable face
Wot, Frenkie de Jong is so likable it's almost cringe worthy. I can hardly stand it personally.Nah he's a great player. Just a big cheater too and it doesn't help he has a punchable face
And how is he a cheater? Because he complains to a ref? All players do that. Some more than others..
I will resist the adhominems.
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No he isn’t. He is going to be a top player for Barcelona and @Peyroteo knows that. Just wait 6 months to see him saying Messi is surrounded by De Jong while Ronaldo has to play with Ramsey.
You don't have to wait 6 months to hear me say that, I've only complimented him as a player here. Tonight Santos prepared for him and took him out of the game, it happens.
He's dislikeable though, which is great if he plays for my team. Not that great when he plays for the opposition.
He purposefully tries to trick the ref every chance he gets. All players complain to the ref, he does it systematically when he's 100% sure he has nothing to complain about.
The fact he has the image of an absolute saint in the media makes it 10 times worse
What team do you support?You don't have to wait 6 months to hear me say that, I've only complimented him as a player here. Tonight Santos prepared for him and took him out of the game, it happens.
He's dislikeable though, which is great if he plays for my team. Not that great when he plays for the opposition.
He purposefully tries to trick the ref every chance he gets. All players complain to the ref, he does it systematically when he's 100% sure he has nothing to complain about.
The fact he has the image of an absolute saint in the media makes it 10 times worse
The player hasn't even had his presentation for Barcelona yet and you're already moaning and finding flaws and exaggerating everything. Weird that.
An image of an saint in the media? Where do you get all this from?
Of course I knew it. That’s the reason I mentioned you.
How you come away with that after watching him play yesterday is a bit silly though. The Portuguese protest every other throw in with the heated passion of a million exploding stars. Maybe he tried to copy them a bit at some point?You don't have to wait 6 months to hear me say that, I've only complimented him as a player here. Tonight Santos prepared for him and took him out of the game, it happens.
He's dislikeable though, which is great if he plays for my team. Not that great when he plays for the opposition.
He purposefully tries to trick the ref every chance he gets. All players complain to the ref, he does it systematically when he's 100% sure he has nothing to complain about.
The fact he has the image of an absolute saint in the media makes it 10 times worse
He does play for Barca next year though, but that surely doesnt impact your opinion of him now does it.
it's funny. Because a guy from Portugal is saying this.
I don't know if you know, but i think Portugal is one of the most disliked countries as it comes to football. And that because they would do anything to win. Mostly play dirty. But hey, that's ok. As long as it works.
But to then accuse Frenkie of being a cheat is just funny.
I don't know if you know, but i think Portugal is one of the most disliked countries as it comes to football. And that because they would do anything to win. Mostly play dirty. But hey, that's ok. As long as it works.
But to then accuse Frenkie of being a cheat is just funny.
I specifically said this:
I love Pepe, I don’t have a problem with dirty players when they play for my team. If anything, that side of De Jong’s game only makes him a better player overall.
He’s a cheat though, it’s just the truth. Not sure why you’re so offended
We play dirty but we don’t do it while pretending to be the kings of fair play and beautiful football. The Dutch play dirty without the reputation of playing dirty that the Latin teams get.
Since when do I hate Barcelona players?How you come away with that after watching him play yesterday is a bit silly though. The Portuguese protest every other throw in with the heated passion of a million exploding stars. Maybe he tried to copy them a bit at some point?
He does play for Barca next year though, but that surely doesnt impact your opinion of him now does it.
I now both defend them too much and criticize them too much according to people here, it’s always bias. I can’t have an opinion.
I’ll try to find a video of De Jong’s antics yesterday then.
You mean those likeable players like Boulahrouz, Van Bömmel or Nigel de Jong were born in Portugal?
Having said that I don’t see nothing similar on De Jong behaviour, don’t agree with @Peyroteo here. For me Felix is much worse on that matter.
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I don't think i'm saying we don't have/had unlikeable players anywhere did i?You mean those likeable players like Boulahrouz, Van Bömmel or Nigel de Jong were born in Portugal?
Having said that I don’t see nothing similar on De Jong behaviour, don’t agree with @Peyroteo here. For me Felix is much worse on that matter.
Was just talking about Frenkie.
Agree with you. Don’t see nothing of that on him. Could make here a long list of Portugal truly hateful players until tomorrow.