Frenkie de Jong | The last muppeting lap

[bosnian_red]

Modric without the defensive work that turned him from a failed #10 signing to a quality DM for Madrid, yes.

Hes shown the capability in the past to be a very useful defensive player. Not a pure DM, but like Modric, next to a DM he could be a dominant midfielder. Modric's potential was always obvious, just like De Jongs. Needed time to put it all together and get a team that can make the most of his ability. The weaknesses in De Jongs game are very much coachable and it's not like a Pogba case where IMO he just doesn't suit the position and you can't fix his issues, De Jong is able to play with pressing and intensity. Especially if we were to get Ten Hag in, I've got no doubt that De Jong would be a massive success and fulfill his huge potential.

 

[bosnian_red]

If Ten Hag comes in it is a no brainer.

De Jong-Fred
Bruno

Great midfield trio to have.

I like Fred but De Jong would more than likely replace him as a regular. De Jong is a deeper playmaker, but the DM is still needed.

 

[VanDeBank]

@Ekeke where'd you get the stats? Can you pull up the Dutch NT now where he plays as a sole DM or the Euros where he played in a two?

 

[Bebestation]

For me he is the closest player we can get to add some creativity and passing tempo to our back/our midfield.

He is the player that can finally replace Carrick because we still haven't replaced the guy. Frenkie De Jong isn't Roy Keane with his defensive ability - but he is a player who has played as a CB before and can position himself to stop attacks at the right time. Just like Carrick needed, we can add another defensive player in partnership to him to make our team more secure.

I say this because our midfield needs multiple additions, improvements, decisions to make anyway:

• Our deeper creative player - since Scholes & Carrick there has not been anyone consistent. Pogba can do it but he needs the right defensively focused CDM to let him purely focus on his creative game.
• The defensive focused CDM - we only have Matic who is now too old and needs replacing. We need a player that can play as an anchor man that purely focus on protecting the CB'S which gives attacking freedom to the rest of the team.
• The Pressing player/ie our Kante - This is for now, Fred. Maybe he needs to be improved on in the future but for me - we have too many midfield gaps that need replacing way before.
• Box to Box - Likewise Mctominay.
• Our attacking creative players Centre Mids - VDB and Pogba; need the anchorman type CDM to let them focus on attacking.

For now I think we need to focus on

1. A ball winning, anchorman CDM
2. A creative deeper CDM/CM. If Frenkie de Jong is available then it would be wrong to not go for him.

 

[Ekeke]

Hes shown the capability in the past to be a very useful defensive player. Not a pure DM, but like Modric, next to a DM he could be a dominant midfielder. Modric's potential was always obvious, just like De Jongs. Needed time to put it all together and get a team that can make the most of his ability. The weaknesses in De Jongs game are very much coachable and it's not like a Pogba case where IMO he just doesn't suit the position and you can't fix his issues, De Jong is able to play with pressing and intensity. Especially if we were to get Ten Hag in, I've got no doubt that De Jong would be a massive success and fulfill his huge potential.

Pogba this season has quietly done fine in the DM position. All his numbers are up to par with the 2nd midfielder of other teams. Above McTominay

It's misleading because he exclusively plays as a box to box player at Barca. Busquets is a great player and Barca don't have a lot of options further up the pitch.

He is quite fast, and his defensive positioning is good. He's always in the right area and knows when to make that last second challenge to salvage a bad situation.

He's definitely a no 6 where he can get on the ball in deeper areas and when he's paired with another no 6, he can take a little more risk to play make.

Looking at FDJ's defensive stats is like looking at McTominay's G/A's when he's playing deep. It doesn't make sense.

So why didnt he do that last night on the 3rd goal Barcelona conceded?

Confusing

And why dont Barcelona use him like that if hes so good at it?

 

[Ekeke]

@Ekeke where'd you get the stats? Can you pull up the Dutch NT now where he plays as a sole DM or the Euros where he played in a two?

I only see the top league stats, so la liga for him. Dont see international stuff

https://fbref.com/en/players/1bacc518/Frenkie-de-Jong

 

[MadDogg]

Pogba this season has quietly done fine in the DM position. All his numbers are up to par with the 2nd midfielder of other teams. Above McTominay

Pogba tends to be decent enough defensively when the opposition have the ball ahead of him. It's when they get in behind him that he tends to get lazy or, if he does attempt to get back and do the defensive work, poor with his positioning and challenges.

 

[VanDeBank]

So why didnt he do that last night on the 3rd goal Barcelona conceded?

Confusing

And why dont Barcelona use him like that if hes so good at it?

I didn't watch the game, I'm a United fan. But regardless one mistake is hardly an indication he can't defend.

I've already answered your question in the post you've quoted and you would have seen it if you weren't trying to be so glib:

Busquets is a great player and Barca don't have a lot of options further up the pitch.

Or do you disagree and think Busquets is shit and a kid who just turned 17 three months ago can start week in week out in La Liga? I don't have to tell you Barca's transfer policy doesn't make sense. FDJ played as a no 6 for Ajax before they bought him and I really like him for Holland there.

 

[Ekeke]

Pogba tends to be decent enough defensively when the opposition have the ball ahead of him. It's when they get in behind him that he tends to get lazy or, if he does attempt to get back and do the defensive work, poor with his positioning and challenges.

Yes absolutely, he has no ability to read danger either but neither do McTominay, De Jong or most normal midfielders.

Its the ones like Rice who can fill in like an extra defender who actually do have those instincts but then people dont want them because they dont seem fancy enough on the ball

 

[VanDeBank]

Pogba's biggest issue in the pivot that he loses his concentration and stops defending properly as the game goes on. He's gone anyway at the end of the season, so what does it matter.

Yes absolutely, he has no ability to read danger either but neither do McTominay, De Jong or most normal midfielders.

Its the ones like Rice who can fill in like an extra defender who actually do have those instincts but then people dont want them because they dont seem fancy enough on the ball

You've reminded me that FDJ played well in a back 3 last season. Even filled in as a CB in a regular back 4.

Ability on the ball from deep is exactly what we need from our DM. Fred tops the chart for defensive actions and our CBs are bang average on the ball.

 

[bond19821982]

Get in ETH and he is coming to us in the summer.

 

[Ekeke]

Pogba's biggest issue in the pivot that he loses his concentration and stops defending properly as the game goes on. He's gone anyway at the end of the season, so what does it matter.


You've reminded me that FDJ played well in a back 3 last season. Even filled in as a CB in a regular back 4.

Ability on the ball from deep is exactly what we need from our DM. Fred tops the chart for defensive actions and our CBs are bang average on the ball.

And mistakes losing the ball in a bad area much like VDB did last night

 

[DWelbz19]

He’s been in awful form this season but if he’s available at the right sum he could add a lot to what we’re lacking.

 

[VanDeBank]

And mistakes losing the ball in a bad area much like VDB did last night

Show me the chart that says Fred makes the most mistakes?

It's easy to make mistakes when you're a one man midfield.

 

[andersj]

People tend to forget context when using stats. Frenkie was outstanding for Ajax of the ball, and can be again if he is used correctly in a well organized side.

 

[harms]

The clubs I can see him going to:

• Bayern Munich - They always seem like a team that can buy anyone from Barcelona. Kimmich maybe blocking the transfer a bit, but Bayern aren't going to let down a good transfer opportunity.
• Man City - Seems like a Pep possesion player. Fernandinho needs to be replaced asap; however they are still arguably trying to balance Gundogan, Rodri, Fernandinho, De Bryune, Bernado Silva, Foden and Grealish that could play within their 3 man midfield.
• Manchester United - if Ten Hag is our next manager, I can see him wanting to link up in the strongest league with Ten Hag and VDB. He arguably plays in our weakest position where we don't have a player except Matic.

Bayern have a strict wage structure that De Jong is going to break (while he's not even going to be a guaranteed starter, even though eventually I think they'd settle on Kimmich - De Jong behind Müller). He's going to earn more than Neuer & Lewandowski and Rummenigge had shown time and again that he's not going to break that structure for anyone — even for someone like Alaba.

So yeah, City, us, Chelsea and, of course, there's always an option of Paris — they would love to sign someone for their back 7 of De Jong's quality.

 

[Bebestation]

Bayern have a strict wage structure that De Jong is going to break (while he's not even going to be a guaranteed starter, even though eventually I think they'd settle on Kimmich - De Jong behind Müller). He's going to earn more than Neuer & Lewandowski and Rummenigge had shown time and again that he's not going to break that structure for anyone — even for someone like Alaba.

So yeah, City, us, Chelsea and, of course, there's always an option of Paris — they would love to sign someone for their back 7 of De Jong's quality.

Do you think Chelsea have the space? They have Kovacic, Kante and Jorginho - then they are trying to fit in players like Ruben Loftus Cheek, Chalobah, Barkley, Mount and Barkley in to different midfield areas aswell.

I don't know much about players wages, so it wouldn't surprise me if Bayern don't go for him if his wages are that high- especially because they do have number of players already.

Why exactly did they sell Thiago? Did they replace him and what he did in the squad or was it just Kimmich?

PSG is a good shout because I find their midfield exceptionally weak - but honestly if Pogba is going to run down his contract; then I'm pretty sure he has agreed something with PSG already like they have done with alot of their players. He can also relax his final career years in paris/home.

 

[harms]

Do you think Chelsea have the space? They have Kovacic, Kante and Jorginho - then they are trying to fit in players like Ruben Loftus Cheek, Chalobah, Barkley, Mount and Barkley in to different midfield areas aswell.

I don't know much about players wages, so it wouldn't surprise me if Bayern don't go for him if his wages are that high- especially because they do have number of players already.

Why exactly did they sell Thiago? Did they replace him and what he did in the squad or was it just Kimmich?

PSG is a good shout because I find their midfield exceptionally weak - but honestly if Pogba is going to run down his contract; then I'm pretty sure he has agreed something with PSG already like they have done with alot of their players. He can also relax his final career years in paris/home.

No, I doubt that they have enough space for them but Chelsea do have a habit of making a big surprising signing from time to time. Jorginho is playing poorly this season, Kanté doesn't get younger and still regularly suffers from injuries... Kovacic is good but De Jong is better. Mount plays further forward. And at his best De Jong is certainly better than his potential competition (Kanté aside) & the De Jong - Kanté midfield looks potentially brilliant.

Thiago wanted to go, he wanted to try something new. And Bayern is not the club that keeps unhappy players — see how easy they have parted with Kroos, Thiago or Alaba (after it became clear that they're not going to match his wishes in terms of salary). The only player that they've fought to keep was Lewandowski and he never even announced his desire to leave (Madrid, City, Chelsea...) publicly. Bayern haven't signed a direct replacement for Thiago but Kimmich predominantly plays in midfield now and does most of the playmaking.

As for Paris — Pogba does make sense for them at many levels but De Jong is a signing that actually helps them to balance the squad a bit while Pogba only sends their already disjointed star-studded collective towards more chaos. Alright, Mbappé will most likely leave next season but they're surely eyeing a high-profile replacement, Messi and Neymar aren't going anywhere and adding another genius that doesn't want to work hard off the ball seems like a questionable decision. Especially since Mbappé, with whom he has such an intuitive understanding on the pitch, isn't going to be there.

 

[Charrockero]

When Barcelona signed him I thought he was one of the few highlights in the long list of awful expensive transfers they had accomplished.

Sadly, I think De Jong has been, at the very least, a standard CM.

Maybe he was drowned towards this descending of level in Barcelona and its not entirely his responsibility, but remembering the reasons he was signed in the first place and his price tag, he should have been a top CM by now. He should be in the bare minimum, one of the few glowing assets of the Catalans and the truth is that he is not.

His case is very similar to that of Mattijs de Ligt.

 

[Harry190]

Still don't see it. Maybe he needs a new environment. He's like a slightly souped-up Odegaard.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

People forget his used to play in CB occasionally for Ajax. His defensive ability is fine.

 

[Ekeke]

Show me the chart that says Fred makes the most mistakes?

It's easy to make mistakes when you're a one man midfield.

Hes never played in a one man midfield. Its easy to never make mistakes when people like on a forum

 

[Henrik Larsson]

People forget his used to play in CB occasionally for Ajax. His defensive ability is fine.

Yes, exactly. People literally don't have a clue what they're talking about if they think he has no defensive abilities, although he's no Kante or Casimero, he's seriously intelligent when it comes to the defensive aspects of playing in midfield. He has showed excellent form for a revived Dutch NT side under Van Gaal this season as well, it's just that Barca has gone to shit and have an atrocious squad. Couple of times I've watched them this season they looked like an Everton level side.

 

[RedTiger]

He's not good at DM things either

Really? When I think of Frenkie I don't think b2b or line splitting passes or great playmaking. I do however think of a solid holding DM. Perhaps I don't watch him enough.

 

[DWelbz19]

Yes absolutely, he has no ability to read danger either but neither do McTominay, De Jong or most normal midfielders.

Its the ones like Rice who can fill in like an extra defender who actually do have those instincts but then people dont want them because they dont seem fancy enough on the ball

Hopeful we see that midfield battle in Europa this season.

 

[VanDeBank]

Hes never played in a one man midfield. Its easy to never make mistakes when people like on a forum

Yes he has. Scott can be a fecking ghost out there, while Bruno was instructed to play as a SS under Ole.

 

[Ekeke]

Yes he has. Scott can be a fecking ghost out there, while Bruno was instructed to play as a SS under Ole.

So a 2 man midfield with an AM in front. Not 1 man

Bruno had our 2nd highest pressing after Fred

 

[VanDeBank]

So a 2 man midfield with an AM in front. Not 1 man

Bruno had our 2nd highest pressing after Fred

Yes, forwards can press too. And Ole calling his own system a 4-2-4 is a good indication Bruno wasn't in midfield, if you didn't notice watching our games.

You can't honestly say a midfielder with less touches than a line goalkeeper is a presence in midfield.
If one of your midfielders doesn't show or want the ball it invites mistakes.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Still don't see it. Maybe he needs a new environment. He's like a slightly souped-up Odegaard.

Odegaard is an attack midfielder isn't he? De Jong works best in front of the defense with a holding midfielder next to him. He's not an attacking player despite what Barca apparently wants him to do. He played quite a few games as a defender for Ajax and Barca as well. He will never contributie a lot of goals or assists.

Would be fantastic if United signed him to play next to Fred really.

 

[DoneDaDa]

The clubs I can see him going to:

• Bayern Munich - They always seem like a team that can buy anyone from Barcelona. Kimmich maybe blocking the transfer a bit, but Bayern aren't going to let down a good transfer opportunity.
• Man City - Seems like a Pep possesion player. Fernandinho needs to be replaced asap; however they are still arguably trying to balance Gundogan, Rodri, Fernandinho, De Bryune, Bernado Silva, Foden and Grealish that could play within their 3 man midfield.
• Manchester United - if Ten Hag is our next manager, I can see him wanting to link up in the strongest league with Ten Hag and VDB. He arguably plays in our weakest position where we don't have a player except Matic.

Bayern look unlikely with Kimmich and Goretzka I don't feel they'll need him. City are the favourites largly on the basis of Barcelona being interested in some of there players a swap is most likely scenrio

I'm hearing his wages are absolutely insane though. 400k a week. He needs to cut that in half before any team considers him.

Apparently 50% is covered by Nike, I think people can still get him for an affordable wages, unless your sponsored by Nike they can pitch in a lot.

Bayern have a strict wage structure that De Jong is going to break (while he's not even going to be a guaranteed starter, even though eventually I think they'd settle on Kimmich - De Jong behind Müller). He's going to earn more than Neuer & Lewandowski and Rummenigge had shown time and again that he's not going to break that structure for anyone — even for someone like Alaba.

So yeah, City, us, Chelsea and, of course, there's always an option of Paris — they would love to sign someone for their back 7 of De Jong's quality.

They already did this with Sane. He's like the 3rd or 4th highest earner at the club. If they deemed it necessary they will on the contrary I think its likely de Jong will take a little pay cut wherever he goes.

 

[Ekeke]

Yes, forwards can press too. And Ole calling his own system a 4-2-4 is a good indication Bruno wasn't in midfield, if you didn't notice watching our games.

You can't honestly say a midfielder with less touches than a line goalkeeper is a presence in midfield.
If one of your midfielders doesn't show or want the ball it invites mistakes.

Sure. Still not 1 man in midfield. That is factually incorrect

 

[KingCavani]

Even with the wages there’s a reason they want to sell him. He hasn’t been nearly as good as they’ve expected.

I kind of worry about how much he’s earning at that age and whether he’ll ever truly kick on as a result. He has talent but he’s stagnated at Barcelona and I’m not sure he’s any more suited to the PL. We do need that type of player but I think people are mor ein love with the idea of what De Jong was suppsoed to be rather than the player who plays every week.

For what you’d have to pay there’s better value to be had imo.

 

[passing-wind]

The criticism from the Barcelona fans is that he's a system player, much resembles what's said about DVB. They say he lacks creativity and is playing too high up the pitch which to me sounds like an 8.

Because United like playing a double pivot he could actually be the ideal player due to his profile. It's not often you hear about a seemingly creative player struggling in a more advanced position.

So by all accounts he is the exact opposite of Pogba positionally, the further towards defence he plays the more effective he is but will need a defensive minded player alongside him.

The tempo of the league would surely be an issue as he does take time on the ball from his performances at Ajax. That adaptation period is what makes or breaks players especially in the english league.

 

[Mainoldo]

Top class player. Right club wrong time… I’d love him here playing in a more competitive league he’ll come up a level. Hopefully we can pull this off.

 

[Mainoldo]

The criticism from the Barcelona fans is that he's a system player, much resembles what's said about DVB. They say he lacks creativity and is playing too high up the pitch which to me sounds like an 8.

Because United like playing a double pivot he could actually be the ideal player due to his profile. It's not often you hear about a seemingly creative player struggling in a more advanced position.

So by all accounts he is the exact opposite of Pogba positionally, the further towards defence he plays the more effective he is but will need a defensive minded player alongside him.

The tempo of the league would surely be an issue as he does take time on the ball from his performances at Ajax. That adaptation period is what makes or breaks players especially in the english league.

Good analysis. I don’t think it’s odd for him not to thrive further forward as his pass selection is not made for the advance role. I’m hoping if this was to happen, he would be the player people are hoping we convert Donny into.

 

[Andre Kagawa]

If he's available in January we should be all over this. He would be perfect for us. Caf seems weirdly silent on this one.

 

[VanDeBank]

Even with the wages there’s a reason they want to sell him. He hasn’t been nearly as good as they’ve expected.

I kind of worry about how much he’s earning at that age and whether he’ll ever truly kick on as a result. He has talent but he’s stagnated at Barcelona and I’m not sure he’s any more suited to the PL. We do need that type of player but I think people are mor ein love with the idea of what De Jong was suppsoed to be rather than the player who plays every week.

For what you’d have to pay there’s better value to be had imo.

There's a reason they want to sell him, yes because they're broke and need to invest/replace over the hill players and shite like L. De Jong, Dest and Braithwaite.

FDJ's position is that of Busquets and he happens to be one of their best players.

Which better players of his profile are available? I think Neves is quite similar, but not as good.

 

[KingCavani]

There's a reason they want to sell him, yes because they're broke and need to invest/replace over the hill players and shite like L. De Jong, Dest and Braithwaite.

FDJ's position is that of Busquets and he happens to be one of their best players.

Which better players of his profile are available? I think Neves is quite similar, but not as good.

Yeah if you think he plays Busquets role then that tells me all I need to know.

 

[VanDeBank]

Yeah if you think he plays Busquets role then that tells me all I need to know.

I don't think it, he plays there for Holland, because LVG thinks it's his best position and he had a great spell at Barca playing deeper.
He was also quite good for Holland under Koeman where he played in a midfield 2 next to a destroyer (De Roon). There's a reason that same Koeman played him further up the pitch later at Barca (because Busquets is still pretty good).

 

[Lyng]

Pogba this season has quietly done fine in the DM position. All his numbers are up to par with the 2nd midfielder of other teams. Above McTominay


So why didnt he do that last night on the 3rd goal Barcelona conceded?

Confusing

And why dont Barcelona use him like that if hes so good at it?

Because Barca are quite shit at the moment due to terrible decisions from their former president.
Whether Xavi is any good is also a huge question.