Gang violence in Sweden

VorZakone · Nov 24, 2021

Been reading a bit on this so far and the level of violence seems quite bad. Worse than you'd expect when you think of Sweden.

Anyone here living in Sweden who can shed some light? And how it affects Swedish politics?

A couple of sources:

horsechoker · Nov 24, 2021

golden_blunder · Nov 24, 2021

They’re probably watching Lindelof and building up their inner rage

Jippy · Nov 24, 2021

I remember the thing about yobs in Sweden using actual grenades as weapons, which is mental.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/explosion-at-a-metro-station-in-stockholm.435311/#post-21961806

VorZakone · Nov 24, 2021

Jippy said:
I remember the thing about yobs in Sweden using actual grenades as weapons, which is mental.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/explosion-at-a-metro-station-in-stockholm.435311/#post-21961806

Yobs? Never heard that term before.

Jippy · Nov 24, 2021

VorZakone said:
Yobs? Never heard that term before.

Yobs- oiks, ruffians etc...

Fearless · Nov 24, 2021

VorZakone said:
Yobs? Never heard that term before.

Yob = backward boY

Mercurial · Nov 24, 2021

I work in a "no go zone" its all greatly exaggerated, doesnt feel like you are in sweden but also never felt unsafe.

Dan_F · Nov 24, 2021

horsechoker said:

T00lsh3d · Nov 24, 2021

Jippy said:
Yobs- oiks, ruffians etc...

I never knew you were so posh Jippy

One Night Only · Nov 24, 2021

Coincidence that the new abba album was recently released? I don't think so. It's the cause of all this violence! Ban Abba!

Sweet Square · Nov 24, 2021

Jippy said:
Yobs- oiks, ruffians etc...

Oi, clean shirt! How do you get that shirt so clean?

F-Red · Nov 24, 2021

horsechoker said:

Cheimoon · Nov 24, 2021

VorZakone said:
Been reading a bit on this so far and the level of violence seems quite bad. Worse than you'd expect when you think of Sweden.

Anyone here living in Sweden who can shed some light? And how it affects Swedish politics?

A couple of sources:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-sweden-became-the-most-dangerous-country-in-europe

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...weden-despite-fall-across-europe-report-finds

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...fficer-gang-violence-worries-grow-2021-07-01/

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50339977

https://www.ft.com/content/8cfa6212-4270-4962-a200-949a868c7cbe

I don't have time to read these now, but I read recently that murder rate (I think it was) are now highest in Sweden across Europe, and Sweden might be (almost?) the only country where they have been going up like that.

Anyway, from what I've been reading for the past 2-3 years, something is definitely going wrong over there with integration and overall equity that needs urgent fixing.

R.N7 · Nov 24, 2021

It's a big political issue, the Swedish Tories has got a massive populist ad campaign at the moment that is just about the gang criminality, how harsher punishment will solve it and going as far as describing the gang criminals as 'terrorists'.

BeforeKeanetherewasRobson · Nov 26, 2021

Jippy said:
I remember the thing about yobs in Sweden using actual grenades as weapons, which is mental.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/explosion-at-a-metro-station-in-stockholm.435311/#post-21961806

Going there next week. Hoping this is a relatively isolated incident

V.O. · Nov 26, 2021

BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Going there next week. Hoping this is a relatively isolated incident

Lived here for about a year and have managed to not be blown up yet. :lol:

The gang issue is a problem, but the vast, vast majority of the violence is against each other - except they can get their hands on Balkan war surplus grenades to use as an intimidation tactic as well. I think I read somewhere that they might be quicker to resort to more extreme means than gangs in a lot of other European countries as a result of Sweden's relatively strict drug laws. Still not a patch on American gang violence though, I'm sure.

I'm currently living in a poor/immigrant area of a small city about the size of Wrexham, and I feel a million times safer wandering around the streets here in the middle of the night than there. As long as you're not spending your time in the particularly bad areas of Stockholm/Malmo/Gothenburg (same rules as visiting any major city really), there's nothing at all to worry about.

Jippy · Nov 26, 2021

BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Going there next week. Hoping this is a relatively isolated incident

I went a couple of years ago and felt perfectly safe there, albeit I was very central. I wasn't kept awake at night by distant explosions or anything. The worst that happened was my burger had blue cheese on it.

utdalltheway · Nov 26, 2021

Jippy said:
I went a couple of years ago and felt perfectly safe there, albeit I was very central. I wasn't kept awake at night by distant explosions or anything. The worst that happened was my burger had blue cheese on it.

You should have lobbed a few grenades into the kitchen.

Kentonio · Nov 26, 2021

Fearless said:
Yob = backward boY

Never knew the etymology of yob before, thanks!

Nanook · Nov 29, 2021

Cheimoon said:
I don't have time to read these now, but I read recently that murder rate (I think it was) are now highest in Sweden across Europe, and Sweden might be (almost?) the only country where they have been going up like that.

Anyway, from what I've been reading for the past 2-3 years, something is definitely going wrong over there with integration and overall equity that needs urgent fixing.

The murder rate in Sweden is not the highest in Europe. Nowhere near in fact.

Dante · Nov 29, 2021

Nanook said:
The murder rate in Sweden is not the highest in Europe. Nowhere near in fact.

Yep. Sweden is firmly midtable.

Country or subnational area	Region	Subregion	Rate	Count	Year	Source
Russia *	Europe	Eastern Europe	8.2	11,964	2018	CTS
Ukraine *	Europe	Eastern Europe	6.2	2,751	2017	CTS
Lithuania	Europe	Northern Europe	4.6	128	2018	CTS
Latvia *	Europe	Northern Europe	4.4	84	2018	CTS
Moldova *	Europe	Eastern Europe	4.1	166	2018	NSO
Gibraltar *	Europe	Southern Europe	3	1	2010	NP
Liechtenstein	Europe	Western Europe	2.6	1	2018	NSO
Hungary *	Europe	Eastern Europe	2.5	242	2017	CTS
Belarus	Europe	Eastern Europe	2.4	226	2018	CTS
Kosovo *	Europe	Southern Europe	2.4	44	2018	CTS
Albania *	Europe	Southern Europe	2.3	66	2018	NSO
Montenegro *	Europe	Southern Europe	2.2	14	2018	CTS
Estonia *	Europe	Northern Europe	2.1	28	2018	CTS
Belgium *	Europe	Western Europe	1.7	193	2017	CTS
Finland *	Europe	Northern Europe	1.6	90	2018	CTS
Malta	Europe	Southern Europe	1.6	7	2018	NSO
Bulgaria *	Europe	Eastern Europe	1.3	92	2018	CTS
Romania *	Europe	Eastern Europe	1.3	250	2018	CTS
Bosnia and Herzegovina	Europe	Southern Europe	1.2	39	2018	CTS
England and Wales *	Europe	Northern Europe	1.2	726	2017	CTS
France *	Europe	Western Europe	1.2	779	2018	CTS
Northern Ireland *	Europe	Northern Europe	1.2	23	2018	CTS
North Macedonia	Europe	Southern Europe	1.2	25	2018	CTS
Serbia *	Europe	Southern Europe	1.2	108	2018	CTS
United Kingdom *	Europe	Northern Europe	1.2	809	2018	CTS Adjusted
Scotland	Europe	Northern Europe	1.1	61	2018	CTS
Slovakia *	Europe	Eastern Europe	1.1	62	2018	CTS
Sweden *	Europe	Northern Europe	1.1	108	2018	CTS
Austria *	Europe	Western Europe	1	86	2018	CTS
Denmark *	Europe	Northern Europe	1	58	2018	CTS
Germany *	Europe	Western Europe	0.9	788	2018	CTS
Greece *	Europe	Southern Europe	0.9	99	2018	CTS
Iceland	Europe	Northern Europe	0.9	3	2018	CTS
Ireland	Europe	Northern Europe	0.9	42	2018	CTS
Portugal *	Europe	Southern Europe	0.8	81	2018	CTS
Poland *	Europe	Eastern Europe	0.7	277	2018	CTS
Croatia	Europe	Southern Europe	0.6	24	2018	CTS
Czech Republic *	Europe	Eastern Europe	0.6	66	2017	CTS
Italy *	Europe	Southern Europe	0.6	345	2018	CTS
Netherlands	Europe	Western Europe	0.6	100	2018	CTS
Spain *	Europe	Southern Europe	0.6	290	2018	CTS
Switzerland *	Europe	Western Europe	0.6	50	2018	CTS
Norway *	Europe	Northern Europe	0.5	25	2018	CTS
Slovenia	Europe	Southern Europe	0.5	10	2018	CTS
Luxembourg	Europe	Western Europe	0.3	2	2017	CTS
Andorra	Europe	Southern Europe	0	0	2015	CTS
Channel Islands	Europe	Northern Europe	0	0	2010	NP
Holy See	Europe	Southern Europe	0	0	2015	CTS
Isle of Man	Europe	Northern Europe	0	0	2016	NP
Monaco	Europe	Western Europe	0	0	2015	CTS
San Marino	Europe	Southern Europe	0	0	2011	WHO

Link

This narrative feels like a thinly veiled anti-immigrant story.

Cheimoon · Nov 29, 2021

Nanook said:
The murder rate in Sweden is not the highest in Europe. Nowhere near in fact.

Dante said:
Yep. Sweden is firmly midtable.

Country or subnational area Region Subregion Rate Count Year Source
Russia * Europe Eastern Europe
8.2
11,964
2018
CTS
Ukraine * Europe Eastern Europe
6.2
2,751
2017
CTS
Lithuania Europe Northern Europe
4.6
128
2018
CTS
Latvia * Europe Northern Europe
4.4
84
2018
CTS
Moldova * Europe Eastern Europe
4.1
166
2018
NSO
Gibraltar * Europe Southern Europe
3
1
2010
NP
Liechtenstein Europe Western Europe
2.6
1
2018
NSO
Hungary * Europe Eastern Europe
2.5
242
2017
CTS
Belarus Europe Eastern Europe
2.4
226
2018
CTS
Kosovo * Europe Southern Europe
2.4
44
2018
CTS
Albania * Europe Southern Europe
2.3
66
2018
NSO
Montenegro * Europe Southern Europe
2.2
14
2018
CTS
Estonia * Europe Northern Europe
2.1
28
2018
CTS
Belgium * Europe Western Europe
1.7
193
2017
CTS
Finland * Europe Northern Europe
1.6
90
2018
CTS
Malta Europe Southern Europe
1.6
7
2018
NSO
Bulgaria * Europe Eastern Europe
1.3
92
2018
CTS
Romania * Europe Eastern Europe
1.3
250
2018
CTS
Bosnia and Herzegovina Europe Southern Europe
1.2
39
2018
CTS
England and Wales * Europe Northern Europe
1.2
726
2017
CTS
France * Europe Western Europe
1.2
779
2018
CTS
Northern Ireland * Europe Northern Europe
1.2
23
2018
CTS
North Macedonia Europe Southern Europe
1.2
25
2018
CTS
Serbia * Europe Southern Europe
1.2
108
2018
CTS
United Kingdom * Europe Northern Europe
1.2
809
2018
CTS Adjusted
Scotland Europe Northern Europe
1.1
61
2018
CTS
Slovakia * Europe Eastern Europe
1.1
62
2018
CTS
Sweden * Europe Northern Europe
1.1
108
2018
CTS
Austria * Europe Western Europe
1
86
2018
CTS
Denmark * Europe Northern Europe
1
58
2018
CTS
Germany * Europe Western Europe
0.9
788
2018
CTS
Greece * Europe Southern Europe
0.9
99
2018
CTS
Iceland Europe Northern Europe
0.9
3
2018
CTS
Ireland Europe Northern Europe
0.9
42
2018
CTS
Portugal * Europe Southern Europe
0.8
81
2018
CTS
Poland * Europe Eastern Europe
0.7
277
2018
CTS
Croatia Europe Southern Europe
0.6
24
2018
CTS
Czech Republic * Europe Eastern Europe
0.6
66
2017
CTS
Italy * Europe Southern Europe
0.6
345
2018
CTS
Netherlands Europe Western Europe
0.6
100
2018
CTS
Spain * Europe Southern Europe
0.6
290
2018
CTS
Switzerland * Europe Western Europe
0.6
50
2018
CTS
Norway * Europe Northern Europe
0.5
25
2018
CTS
Slovenia Europe Southern Europe
0.5
10
2018
CTS
Luxembourg Europe Western Europe
0.3
2
2017
CTS
Andorra Europe Southern Europe
0
0
2015
CTS
Channel Islands Europe Northern Europe
0
0
2010
NP
Holy See Europe Southern Europe
0
0
2015
CTS
Isle of Man Europe Northern Europe
0
0
2016
NP
Monaco Europe Western Europe
0
0
2015
CTS
San Marino Europe Southern Europe
0
0
2011
WHO

Link

This narrative feels like a thinly veiled anti-immigrant story.

Well, I'll have to look that article up again then! A good reminder not to post things from hazy memory.

(What anti-immigrant story?

)

Ballache · Nov 29, 2021

Meh, it's all part of the anti-immigration rethoric by the far right in Europe and the US.
I lived in a "no-go zone" and never had any issues. Central Stockholm is way more dangerous than these areas.
Anyway, we do have a problem and it's due to the lack of integration. People see a Middle-Eastern looking guy and assume it's an immigrant when in truth t90% of these criminals are probably born here or came at a very young age.
The right wants to introduce harsher punishment for gang related activities. It may work in the short-term but the actual solution is integration and equal opportunity (which doesn't exist here).
Swedes are not confrontational, so we don't have a lot of "in your face" racism but the amount of prejudice is ridiculous.

Siorac · Nov 29, 2021

Dante said:
Yep. Sweden is firmly midtable.

Country or subnational area Region Subregion Rate Count Year Source
Russia * Europe Eastern Europe
8.2
11,964
2018
CTS
Ukraine * Europe Eastern Europe
6.2
2,751
2017
CTS
Lithuania Europe Northern Europe
4.6
128
2018
CTS
Latvia * Europe Northern Europe
4.4
84
2018
CTS
Moldova * Europe Eastern Europe
4.1
166
2018
NSO
Gibraltar * Europe Southern Europe
3
1
2010
NP
Liechtenstein Europe Western Europe
2.6
1
2018
NSO
Hungary * Europe Eastern Europe
2.5
242
2017
CTS
Belarus Europe Eastern Europe
2.4
226
2018
CTS
Kosovo * Europe Southern Europe
2.4
44
2018
CTS
Albania * Europe Southern Europe
2.3
66
2018
NSO
Montenegro * Europe Southern Europe
2.2
14
2018
CTS
Estonia * Europe Northern Europe
2.1
28
2018
CTS
Belgium * Europe Western Europe
1.7
193
2017
CTS
Finland * Europe Northern Europe
1.6
90
2018
CTS
Malta Europe Southern Europe
1.6
7
2018
NSO
Bulgaria * Europe Eastern Europe
1.3
92
2018
CTS
Romania * Europe Eastern Europe
1.3
250
2018
CTS
Bosnia and Herzegovina Europe Southern Europe
1.2
39
2018
CTS
England and Wales * Europe Northern Europe
1.2
726
2017
CTS
France * Europe Western Europe
1.2
779
2018
CTS
Northern Ireland * Europe Northern Europe
1.2
23
2018
CTS
North Macedonia Europe Southern Europe
1.2
25
2018
CTS
Serbia * Europe Southern Europe
1.2
108
2018
CTS
United Kingdom * Europe Northern Europe
1.2
809
2018
CTS Adjusted
Scotland Europe Northern Europe
1.1
61
2018
CTS
Slovakia * Europe Eastern Europe
1.1
62
2018
CTS
Sweden * Europe Northern Europe
1.1
108
2018
CTS
Austria * Europe Western Europe
1
86
2018
CTS
Denmark * Europe Northern Europe
1
58
2018
CTS
Germany * Europe Western Europe
0.9
788
2018
CTS
Greece * Europe Southern Europe
0.9
99
2018
CTS
Iceland Europe Northern Europe
0.9
3
2018
CTS
Ireland Europe Northern Europe
0.9
42
2018
CTS
Portugal * Europe Southern Europe
0.8
81
2018
CTS
Poland * Europe Eastern Europe
0.7
277
2018
CTS
Croatia Europe Southern Europe
0.6
24
2018
CTS
Czech Republic * Europe Eastern Europe
0.6
66
2017
CTS
Italy * Europe Southern Europe
0.6
345
2018
CTS
Netherlands Europe Western Europe
0.6
100
2018
CTS
Spain * Europe Southern Europe
0.6
290
2018
CTS
Switzerland * Europe Western Europe
0.6
50
2018
CTS
Norway * Europe Northern Europe
0.5
25
2018
CTS
Slovenia Europe Southern Europe
0.5
10
2018
CTS
Luxembourg Europe Western Europe
0.3
2
2017
CTS
Andorra Europe Southern Europe
0
0
2015
CTS
Channel Islands Europe Northern Europe
0
0
2010
NP
Holy See Europe Southern Europe
0
0
2015
CTS
Isle of Man Europe Northern Europe
0
0
2016
NP
Monaco Europe Western Europe
0
0
2015
CTS
San Marino Europe Southern Europe
0
0
2011
WHO

Link

This narrative feels like a thinly veiled anti-immigrant story.

I'm not sure where the CTS got this 242 number for Hungary though. For the year 2017, Eurostat has 157, Hungarian police claims 107. I'm leaning towards accepting Eurostat's numbers - police numbers refer to closed cases only, apparently - but the 242 seems improbably high.

Nanook · Nov 29, 2021

Siorac said:
I'm not sure where the CTS got this 242 number for Hungary though. For the year 2017, Eurostat has 157, Hungarian police claims 107. I'm leaning towards accepting Eurostat's numbers - police numbers refer to closed cases only, apparently - but the 242 seems improbably high.

A lot of countries with include attempted murder and other things in their homicide stats. The wiki article might use a source that includes that.

Cheimoon · Nov 29, 2021

I found back the article I mentioned, and it does say that Sweden's homicide rate now ranks in the European top, and that it has been rising significatly while it's dropping elsewhere. But the article doesn't show the numbers or explain where they come from, and the claim is obviously not confirmed by @Dante's table. I've been looking up some Eurostats numbers (thanks @Siorac), and they don't seem to confirm it either. That's weird - it's a good newspaper. But it is what it is.

As for the anti-immigration bit - my angle was the same as @Ballache's. People with an immigration background (themselves or through their parents or grandparents) may occur in these stats more often, but that should not be taken to mean that they are the problem. Stats can have a stigmatizing effect if taken at face value, but it's important to consider context, the determinants of outcomes, and they tend to point to poor integration practices and systemic racism, not to an 'innate' problem with these population groups.

Siorac · Nov 29, 2021

Nanook said:
A lot of countries with include attempted murder and other things in their homicide stats. The wiki article might use a source that includes that.

Could be but the article cites the same source for all the countries, CTS. I'm not sure about CTS' methodology though - but I certainly doubt that Romania or Serbia has half as many homicides per capita, whatever definition of homicide we use, as Hungary. The aforementioned Eurostat numbers are far more in line with my expectations (which is that these countries are roughly similar).

VorZakone · Nov 29, 2021

Cheimoon said:
I found back the article I mentioned, and it does say that Sweden's homicide rate now ranks in the European top, and that it has been rising significatly while it's dropping elsewhere. But the article doesn't show the numbers or explain where they come from, and the claim is obviously not confirmed by @Dante's table. I've been looking up some Eurostats numbers (thanks @Siorac), and they don't seem to confirm it either. That's weird - it's a good newspaper. But it is what it is.

As for the anti-immigration bit - my angle was the same as @Ballache's. People with an immigration background (themselves or through their parents or grandparents) may occur in these stats more often, but that should not be taken to mean that they are the problem. Stats can have a stigmatizing effect if taken at face value, but it's important to consider context, the determinants of outcomes, and they tend to point to poor integration practices and systemic racism, not to an 'innate' problem with these population groups.

That's the standard rhetoric: poor integration and systemic racism. Which could explain poverty but doesn't explain the gang violence for me. I don't think poverty inevitably leads to gang violence.

I've encountered the mentality some of these youths have. Couldn't hold a job as a stocker in supermarkets. Didn't show up etc. A contempt for working a job. We can have an honest debate on where this mentality comes from but I have seen how some of these youths act when given opportunities. Combine that with a macho culture and it becomes a breeding environment for criminals.

And the sad thing is that those who do want to advance in society sometimes get caught up in the violence or succumb to peer pressure.

Cheimoon · Nov 29, 2021

VorZakone said:
That's the standard rhetoric: poor integration and systemic racism. Which could explain poverty but doesn't explain the gang violence for me. I don't think poverty inevitably leads to gang violence.

Not inevitably, but what are the environments where you find street gangs?

VorZakone · Nov 29, 2021

Cheimoon said:
Not inevitably, but what are the environments where you find street gangs?

Poor environments, obviously. But unless you want to claim that poverty inevitably leads to gang violence it seems like a moot point?

Cheimoon · Nov 29, 2021

VorZakone said:
Poor environments, obviously. But unless you want to claim that poverty inevitably leads to gang violence it seems like a moot point?

No & no.

Poverty does not inevitably lead to gang violence, but that doesn't mean that poverty never leads to gang violence. Street gangs do often rise up in poor environments; and even when the gang has grown and professionalized and its leadership has moved out of that environment, most of its new recruits will still come from there. Countering that is not just a matter of instlling better discipline in people (as you seemed to suggest above), it's a matter of increasing equity, integrating these people into society more, and other measures that overall help make people feel more valued by and valuable to society, and makes them feel like there's a role and a future for them.

Ballache · Nov 29, 2021

VorZakone said:
That's the standard rhetoric: poor integration and systemic racism. Which could explain poverty but doesn't explain the gang violence for me. I don't think poverty inevitably leads to gang violence.

I've encountered the mentality some of these youths have. Couldn't hold a job as a stocker in supermarkets. Didn't show up etc. A contempt for working a job. We can have an honest debate on where this mentality comes from but I have seen how some of these youths act when given opportunities. Combine that with a macho culture and it becomes a breeding environment for criminals.

And the sad thing is that those who do want to advance in society sometimes get caught up in the violence or succumb to peer pressure.

Nah I disagree. Poverty is definitely a part of it especially in a relatively wealthy country like Sweden.
The issue is that a lot of these kids feel left out and have no real sense of belonging. They feel that being a stocker in a supermarket is the most they can achieve in life.
What they need is proper life coaching and feeling that they belong to this country and this society.
I do agree that culture plays a part and that some people go out of their way to not blend in, parents preferring to live on benefits rather than working and all of that but to make it seem like this is THE MAIN issue is false.
I grew up in Botkyrka having come to Swedes at the age of 15. I have a Masters degree and I still get asked stupid questions in interviews about my criminal record (despite having worked in the financial sector where it's required by law to have a clean record).

VorZakone · Nov 29, 2021

Cheimoon said:
No & no.

Poverty does not inevitably lead to gang violence, but that doesn't mean that poverty never leads to gang violence. Street gangs do often rise up in poor environments; and even when the gang has grown and professionalized and its leadership has moved out of that environment, most of its new recruits will still come from there. Countering that is not just a matter of instlling better discipline in people (as you seemed to suggest above), it's a matter of increasing equity, integrating these people into society more, and other measures that overall help make people feel more valued by and valuable to society, and makes them feel like there's a role and a future for them.

Of course, the more measures taken, the better. All help is valuable. But it is a two-way street. Those with contempt for the country they live in, those who are unwilling to put the effort in, they will take longer to integrate if integrate at all. Sometimes this two-way street argument gets completely forgotten.

My father was an immigrant. He had zero money , and only a briefcase of clothes when he moved to where we live. But he put the effort in, he took an intern job and advanced from there, while also learning the language and interacting with the neighborhood (he did some home repairing work for older ladies).

Cheimoon · Nov 29, 2021

VorZakone said:
Of course, the more measures taken, the better. All help is valuable. But it is a two-way street. Those with contempt for the country they live in, those who are unwilling to put the effort in, they will take longer to integrate if integrate at all. Sometimes this two-way street argument gets completely forgotten.

My father was an immigrant. He had zero money , and only a briefcase of clothes when he moved to where we live. But he put the effort in, he took an intern job and advanced from there, while also learning the language and interacting with the neighborhood (he did some home repairing work for older ladies).

That may be true. But while I have no personal experience with Sweden - if things are anything like they are in the Netherlands, and also going by what @Ballache said in his post (which also suggests that it's a lot like in thet Netherlands), then that two-way street needs a LOT more traffic in the direction of people living in these neighbourhoods than the other way round. And that's something governments can directly and quickly influence, so why not start there.

VorZakone · Nov 29, 2021

Ballache said:
Nah I disagree. Poverty is definitely a part of it especially in a relatively wealthy country like Sweden.
The issue is that a lot of these kids feel left out and have no real sense of belonging. They feel that being a stocker in a supermarket is the most they can achieve in life.
What they need is proper life coaching and feeling that they belong to this country and this society.
I do agree that culture plays a part and that some people go out of their way to not blend in, parents preferring to live on benefits rather than working and all of that but to make it seem like this is THE MAIN issue is false.
I grew up in Botkyrka having come to Swedes at the age of 15. I have a Masters degree and I still get asked stupid questions in interviews about my criminal record (despite having worked in the financial sector where it's required by law to have a clean record).

I'm curious. How do you explain the gang violence in these neighborhoods? It's one thing being poor and lagging, it's another thing throwing grenades and teenagers mowing eachother down.

VanDeBank · Nov 29, 2021

VorZakone said:
That's the standard rhetoric: poor integration and systemic racism. Which could explain poverty but doesn't explain the gang violence for me. I don't think poverty inevitably leads to gang violence.

I've encountered the mentality some of these youths have. Couldn't hold a job as a stocker in supermarkets. Didn't show up etc. A contempt for working a job. We can have an honest debate on where this mentality comes from but I have seen how some of these youths act when given opportunities. Combine that with a macho culture and it becomes a breeding environment for criminals.

And the sad thing is that those who do want to advance in society sometimes get caught up in the violence or succumb to peer pressure.

Safe to say that's a false premise. The other cause you're alluding to is "culture".

If that is the case why are gang members in the US historically always from impoverished communities? Did Jews and Italians simultaneously experience unique changes to cultural practices or did their economic mobility improve?

Did Jews and Italians pass on their crappy attitude to Latinos and blacks?

Are gangs in India not made up of members of the lowest caste? Gypsies in Eastern Europe?

How can you explain any of these in the absence of poor integration, systemic racism and poverty?

Denis79 · Nov 29, 2021

Cheimoon said:
I don't have time to read these now, but I read recently that murder rate (I think it was) are now highest in Sweden across Europe, and Sweden might be (almost?) the only country where they have been going up like that.

Anyway, from what I've been reading for the past 2-3 years, something is definitely going wrong over there with integration and overall equity that needs urgent fixing.

The far right want to make it sound worse than it actually is, there are however problems that need to be adressed.

Cheimoon · Nov 29, 2021

Denis79 said:
The far right want to make it sound worse than it actually is, there are however problems that need to be adressed.

Just to note that it was pointed out above that I was wrong in that post - see the rest of the thread.

Denis79 · Nov 29, 2021

Cheimoon said:
Just to note that it was pointed out above that I was wrong in that post - see the rest of the thread.

Sorry didn't read further down but you might easily have read it somewhere because a lot of far right movements like to use the "Sweden argument" as a way to divide people. Trump did it several times as well.

Gang violence in Sweden

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