Certainly. I think Neville should be more critical of Jose. But his broader point is correct, that we are crap under 3 managers so there's a wider issue at hand.
Gary Neville
- Thread starter yamo123x
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Don't see it that way myself.
You, among many others, are vastly overrating the players we have.
Mourinho, should he be doing better? Of course! But, put someone else in there and the results will still be the same. The club needs gutting from top to bottom
I do think Jose has failed us this season but I actually don't rate a lot of our players as much as the caf or even the media do. I don't see Rashford suddenly turning into Sterling if he was coached by Pep for example.
Hundreds and hundreds of sides improve as soon as they change their manager... not sure why we'd definitely be any different.
I'm so sick of Neville at this point. He's a massive Mourinho apologist.
Hasn't really happened for us with the last 2 manager changes, Neville is right that there are bigger issues at the club.
Having said that we're patently not going to improve much under Jose.
So if we were to sack him now as the international break starts, which available managers would come in and guarantee do a better job?
Because we're average?
If you or anyone else seriously believe the likes of Chris Smalling, Jesse Lingard, Lukaku,among many others are good enough for this club, then I don't know what else to say.
A new manager comes in, he wants rid of certain players and wants his own players in, you think the board are going to allow that? We've already seen this under Mourinho....The club are still paying Darmian thousands a week, for living it up in Milan at weekends, because Woodward wanted an extra million quid on his transfer fee.
It would still be the same. Sure, the style of play would be different but, the results would still be the same. It's a long road back
I'm a Jose supporter but playing devils advocate here for a moment Jose has been here 3 years. I'm not going to blame him for those at the club who shouldn't be as thats Ed's job. I imagine Jose would have wanted more in and more to leave since he's been here. Fact remains mind that Jose's buys haven't really excelled. Bar perhaps Pogba who was one of the most rated players in world football when he signed so you'd expect him to be fine. The rest look plainly average. Now I'd be confident in thinking its early days for them but for the fact the others who've had 3 years of Jose coaching......have not progressed one bit either....so will time help. I don't believe it will. To counteract this I think Jose is operating in a structure doomed to fail regardless but thats a bigger picture.
But if the style of play was different and better... then, wouldn't the results be better by virtue?
Lukaku is obviously capable of being better then whatever this shit is.... a new manager could also maybe get the best out of Pogba more consistently? and Sanchez... and might actually drop Matic, and get something that represents a £50 odd million player out of Fred?
The idea that we can't improve as a side - when we're this bad and inconsistent at the moment is something I just don't understand.
There are no guarantee's in football of course - but in an fanciful world, if we threw a ton of cash at Poch (difficult but not impossible) he'd probably do better... hell i'm not sure on Zidane, but I reckon just playing for the great man would get a bit more out of our players... or if we took a punt on someone and somehow got Nagglesmann (tricky as he's lined up for RB Lipzeig) I reckon he could change us for the better.
Well Moyes is a crap manager, so hard to improve when you go from Fergie to him.
We actually did improve a bit under LVG - but I mean it's not hard to improve on Moyes.
And with Jose, again we did look better at first.
Neville is right that there are bigger issues at the club, but I think is wrong to avoid stating that the manager could actually be one of them.
On your last point it makes far greater sense to look at structure then manager. We have a Jan window approaching and yet still no sign of structure change at the club. SO once again is Ed going to make the final call on signings (surely not) or is he going to listen to Jose (surely not I'd say given how he refused in the summer and if anything he has more concern now than then). I'd be just as worried if we now backed Mou at this stage as it again shows a complete lack of any strategy at the club. We are like a guy blind drunk right now looking for his keys. We need to sober the feck up and go from there!
I don't think it has to be either or - i think both could and should be looked at.
In my ideal world - the club would just do a complete change. Get Ed of football matters, put a long term strategy in place, get people in on the football side to manage it, and get a new, progressive manager to properly start fresh.
OK but none of the managers you named would come in January. Nagalsman is contracted to another club starting next year, Poch simply wouldn't go in January at least and Zidane said he's not interested in the Premier League.
Anyone else? Right now I can only see Conte or Jardim.
The more these two talk, the easier it becomes to see why they failed as managers.
Well to me you decide on and bring in a DoF before the manager otherwise it defeats the point! You then choose a manager in keeping with the principles and values that structure decides on. Bringing in any manager first just compounds our current mess.
People don't seem to want to admit it but our back 4 of Shaw, Lindelof, Smalling and Young (or any combination of our defenders) is mid table quality at best. Under Souness playing 'one and two touch' they'd obviously be title contenders though.
It's so true
It's hard to know without being inside the club day in day out what the actual problem is that GN was alluding to on Sky. One senses there is a lack of group identity among the players. They are working in many cases for themselves and their careers and their wallets, not for each other or the club. One senses the same of the manager. One knows it's true of the owners. How that manifests as bad football is hard to nail down. It doesn't seem to me a coincidence that Martial hits a rich vein of form when his contract is up for renewal.
But maybe that's just a fan projecting. What's really required is for someone with a fresh pair of eyes to come in and look over the club structure from top to bottom and diagnose the issues.
But maybe that's just a fan projecting. What's really required is for someone with a fresh pair of eyes to come in and look over the club structure from top to bottom and diagnose the issues.
Exactly. City, Chelsea and Liverpool have spent more than United in the last two years. City by more than 200m and they were ahead of us before that investment! The club needs to spend more than its rivals to become better. Liverpool did it last summer and look what happened.
Yes. He left for a "second rate league" but sits at the top of the table with most assists and one of the standout players. It's amazing what someone can achieve when given the chance.
I agree that the club needs to invest more but you also have to question some of Mou's signings. Matic looks like a huge feck up right now, and what about the ones he signs but don't play?
Also, if the targets from the summer are true, I'm happy the club said no. Then again, you could say that if they don't back him they should sack him.
Totally agree, the more he comes out with analysis like this the less respect I have for his opinion. At least Paul Scholes says it as he sees it, calls the manager out when it is the manager's fault or tactics, calls out players when they aren't performing but does not trying and blame everything and everyone except the manager. Jose has been in the job now for his 3rd year, has spent over £400 million and nothing has changed, actually we getting worse.
The reason you can't understand it is because its balls. For this to be true we have to believe that our manager is getting the absolute maximum out of this team. I'd be interested to know the reasoning behind anyone that feels this way.
We all know how good Jose is at manipulating officials, fellow managers etc. This also extends to the supporters.
United doesn't necessarily need to spend more than it's rivals to become better. It needs to spend it's money better than it's rivals do.
Here is the page on wiki that lists the top 10 most expensive signings for United.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Manchester_United_F.C._records_and_statistics
1 Paul Pogba
Juventus £89.3 million[39][40] August 20162 Romelu Lukaku
Everton £75 million[42] July 20173 Ángel Di María
Real Madrid £59.7 million[43] August 20144 Fred
Shakhtar Donetsk £47 million[44] June 20185 Nemanja Matić
Chelsea £40 million[45] July 20176 Juan Mata
Chelsea £37.1 million[46] January 20147 Anthony Martial
Monaco £36 million[41] September 20158 Victor Lindelöf
Benfica £31 million[47] June 20179 Dimitar Berbatov
Tottenham Hotspur £30.75 million[48] September 200810 Eric Bailly
Villarreal £30 million[49] June 2016All bar berbatov and di maria are still at the club. Those 8 players cost an average of c £48M each using the wiki figures (although Martial cost significantly more than the £36M stated in wiki). Sanchez should be considered for the purpose of my next question as his high wages reflect the fact you brought him in on a free
So the question is, how many of those 9 signings now look like money well spent ? How many have lived up to the price tag ? How many could be sold for more than they cost ? How many of them would United's rivals love to have in their squad, let alone 1st team ? I suspect the answers will reflect pretty poorly, albeit most clubs would like pogba in their squad
Here is the city page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Manchester_City_F.C._records_and_statistics
1 Riyad Mahrez
Leicester City £60M 20182 Aymeric Laporte
Athletic Bilbao £57M 20183 Kevin De Bruyne
VfL Wolfsburg £55M[5] 20154 Benjamin Mendy
Monaco £49M 20175 Kyle Walker
Tottenham Hotspur £48M[6] 20176 John Stones
Everton £47.5M 20167 Raheem Sterling
Liverpool £44M[7] 20158 Bernardo Silva
Monaco £43M 20179 Sergio Agüero
Atlético Madrid £38M 201110 Leroy Sané
Schalke 04 £37M 2016All ten of our most expensive signings are still at the club. Their average cost is almost identical to yours at just under £48M each. Eight of them started yesterday, one of those that didn't being the injured KDB.
Same question - how many have lived up to the price tag ? How many could be sold for a profit ? How many would our rivals love to have in their squad/first team ?
It's incredibly clear - you don't need to spend more to be better. You need to spend better.
Have to agree with this. People say that Pep has had the luxury of buying, and then replacing if they aren't right. I personally think he has bought superbly since he came in.United doesn't necessarily need to spend more than it's rivals to become better. It needs to spend it's money better than it's rivals do.
Here is the page on wiki that lists the top 10 most expensive signings for United.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Manchester_United_F.C._records_and_statistics
1 Paul Pogba
2 Romelu Lukaku
3 Ángel Di María
4 Fred
5 Nemanja Matić
6 Juan Mata
7 Anthony Martial
8 Victor Lindelöf
9 Dimitar Berbatov
10 Eric Bailly
All bar berbatov and Di Maria are still at the club. Those 8 players cost an average of c £48M each using the wiki figures (although Martial cost significantly more than the £36M stated in wiki). Sanchez should be considered for the purpose of my next question as his high wages reflect the fact you brought him in on a free
So the question is, how many of those 9 signings now look like money well spent ? How many have lived up to the price tag ? How many could be sold for more than they cost ? How many of them would United's rivals love to have in their squad, let alone 1st team ? I suspect the answers will reflect pretty poorly, albeit most clubs would like Pogba in their squad
Here is the city page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Manchester_City_F.C._records_and_statistics
1 Riyad Mahrez
2 Aymeric Laporte
3 Kevin De Bruyne
4 Benjamin Mendy
5 Kyle Walker
6 John Stones
7 Raheem Sterling
8 Bernardo Silva
9 Sergio Agüero
10 Leroy Sané
All ten of our most expensive signings are still at the club. Their average cost is almost identical to yours at just under £48M each. Eight of them started yesterday, one of those that didn't being the injured KDB.
Same question - how many have lived up to the price tag ? How many could be sold for a profit ? How many would our rivals love to have in their squad/first team ?
It's incredibly clear - you don't need to spend more to be better. You need to spend better.
Having awful recruitment can co-exist with not getting the best out of your players. To become a really good side we need to fix both.
One problem with these debates on here and on TV is that some elements are easier to observe than others. Terrible recruitment can be a manager issue, a staff issue, a board issue, a combination or just bad luck. It's easier to watch games and see how players like Lukaku and Sanchez play far worse than our expectations of them.
One problem with these debates on here and on TV is that some elements are easier to observe than others. Terrible recruitment can be a manager issue, a staff issue, a board issue, a combination or just bad luck. It's easier to watch games and see how players like Lukaku and Sanchez play far worse than our expectations of them.
true
Interestingly, martial and mata are I think the only players in that list (apart from the two who aren't with you any more, berbatov & DiM) who aren't jose signings ? So 6 of the most expensive 10 signings in united's history and 7 if you include the financial anomaly of sanchez are jose signings ?
we have had some flops along the way and there is no question it makes it easier if you know you don't have to play a £40M player that doesn't work out but unquestionably, by & large pep's signings (or signings made when pep was manager) have worked out very well. And of course, we now know when pep actually signed for city - it's hard to imagine he wasn't then kept in the loop on signings
For me, in additional to the signings having to be the right fit for club & manager, United need to start with working out who they want to be their leaders, because surely they influence new players from the moment they walk in the dressing room. That's just one of many reasons why the presence of keane, the class of 92, etc was so powerful alongside SAF (in my opinion as an outsider)
Personally I think Mourinho has bought fine, but his tactics and approach fail at getting the best out of many of these players. Overally his biggest failure IMO is failing to adjust tactics and approach to the talent at his disposal. Pogba, Sanchez, Fred, Lindelof and Bailly are all much more suited to a more aggressive approach where we press higher up the pitch rather than dropping back into our own half out of possession. These are also players, perhaps excluding Bailly, who would thrive in a more attacking setup, probably a big reason that we always look better after falling behind as we are then required to look to control possession and get forward.
Players he's inherited like Martial, Rashford, Herrera, Smalling, Shaw, etc. would also be better suited to a more proactive approach as well IMO. I still don't think the squad has the quality or balance (our right hand side is weak, although Dalot could help if he can get healthy and gets chances) to push for the league or CL, but top-4 with this squad shouldn't be some monumental struggle. There is quality here, but it's not being used in a way to optimize it's efficacy and output.
Whether or not we make a change in season the club needs to get its act together, employ a technical director and start formulating a list of candidates to replace Mourinho if they decide his time is up now or at the end of the campaign. Of course that would require the board not to be run by a footballing idiot like Woodward so that's probably asking for too much.
Players he's inherited like Martial, Rashford, Herrera, Smalling, Shaw, etc. would also be better suited to a more proactive approach as well IMO. I still don't think the squad has the quality or balance (our right hand side is weak, although Dalot could help if he can get healthy and gets chances) to push for the league or CL, but top-4 with this squad shouldn't be some monumental struggle. There is quality here, but it's not being used in a way to optimize it's efficacy and output.
Whether or not we make a change in season the club needs to get its act together, employ a technical director and start formulating a list of candidates to replace Mourinho if they decide his time is up now or at the end of the campaign. Of course that would require the board not to be run by a footballing idiot like Woodward so that's probably asking for too much.
I do not see Woodward refusing to buy. No CEO would just throw money around. Jose bought two CBs, and three midfield players. Of which one is shite and the other is the only one playing regularly. One sits on the bench. He got two CBs, of which only one is playing and the other sits on the bench and most of the time not even in the squad. He had one of the best French prospects and benches him to accomodate Sanchez who has not delivered. He plays a player who masquerades as a football player as a striker. He then relies on Fellaini to bail out the team on every occasion. He has bought 8 players in the two seasons he has been here. Of those only Pogba can be a regular player. The rest he has benched or as for Matic is finished.
So how is Woodward responsible for buying these players unless Jose wanted them to be bought?
It is Jose's responsibility and Souness is right that most managers would get this lot to play a lot better style of football at least. We may not win anything but would certainly play better football as the whole team has a lot of International experience in playing for top or decent footballing countries.
So how is Woodward responsible for buying these players unless Jose wanted them to be bought?
It is Jose's responsibility and Souness is right that most managers would get this lot to play a lot better style of football at least. We may not win anything but would certainly play better football as the whole team has a lot of International experience in playing for top or decent footballing countries.
Honestly I'm not sure the improvements under Van Gaal or Mourinho were that great but yeah you are right that we looked good at first.
Neville's major hindrance as a pundit is always backing the manager so agree he is in the wrong in not including Mourinho in the list of things not right at the club. In any case I thought one of the Caf conspiracies was that Neville wanted Mourinho out because he and the rest of the class of 92 were annoyed that Giggs didn't get the job.
Forgive me, but I don't understand that statement. Surely you choose players who fit your tactical approach & style ?
I'm saying he has bought talented, useful players but is failing to get the most out of them with his tactical approach. This squad doesn't need a complete overhaul like Fergie's last side, or devoid of talent in a number of key areas like what LvG left us. What it needs is a manager who will be more proactive and allows or be able to get his players to play on the front foot higher up the pitch from the start of matches.
So the best way to put is that I still think Jose has a good eye for talent, he just isn't the man to get the most out of it currently.
That's a pretty damning indictment. It's suggesting someone other than one of the best coaches of all time will get more out of players actually chosen by said coach than the coach that chose them.
Wow really? A whopping number of THREE? Better stop there then.
One might as well not count because it was failure from the start (Moyes).
One was a borderline experiment and might have worked (Van Gaal).
And the latest is the club selling it's soul for an attempt to hotshot success by any means necessary (Mourinho).
If we actually appoint a suitable manager that prioritises attacking performance over pragmatism (some sort of strategy that fits with a club like United), we can then start worrying about deficiencies in the playing staff.
P.S. Gary Neville is a fcuking mug.
I get bored with the reverse lazy comment. Like City had a team of world class players. Yet half of not 2/3 of them are nowhere to be seen now. So go figure.
At best we could say that Mourinho has had spectacularly bad luck with signings. I don't think that's true though. It looks like a scattergun approach.
Bailly - I and many others feel that he is our most talented centre back. Looked a real find at first - seems to have been frozen out after a few poor matches
Sanchez - bought him because we could, despite the fact that Martial was in a purple patch in the position we ended up using him for
Lukaku - could be a terrifying striker in the right team. Not for us. Give this guy service in the box and he scores 30 goals. We expect him to build up play, bring others in. He just isn't that player
Fred - who knows. He can't be impressing in training to have been left out yesterday
Matic - I kind of understand this one. We needed a leader. He was always going to be a short term solution though
Right wing - such an obvious hole in our side. Never been addressed properly
I don't think it's that much of a reach. This squad is imbalanced, sure. I'll give Jose that it's not ideal to have to figure out how to handle playing with a team which has no attacking impetus down the right and I'm not sure failing to address that is entirely his fault. That said it's very hard to watch us play and believe that another manager couldn't get more out of our attacking talent, especially when the defense has not been solid.
If the defensive unit was of the standard you normally associate with a Mourinho side then I'd feel differently, but it has not been even close.
I think you're the mug if you honestly believe he is. The truth is if we went toe to toe with City we'd lose 9 times out of 10. If that makes you happy so be it, but most fans would prefer a little bit of common sense when approaching a game. You seem to think there's some magical easy answer here - get rid of Jose and get some unnamed attacking coach who suddenly makes us compete with the likes of City. This is just fantasy, we're years behind them.
The squad has lots of players who played better before Mourinho or elsewhere.
Even the ones who have played better under Mourinho for a while, probably arent at their best now under him. For example Ander who went from our player of the season to being replaced by Matic and is now not playing that great, or often.
The only player who is doing better now than under the previous managers or previous club that they were bought from during Mourinho's time as manager of United is Fellaini