Gary Neville

[LoveFootball]

i don't get it when people say that this team isn't good enough or average. If you remove Pep Guardiola and his fantastic City squad from the equation, this same team people are criticizing win the league last season, surely hein? For me the only difference between our last season and the season Mourinho won the league with Chelsea is that Pep came in the PL and built an amazing team. So I find it strange when people downplay our squad.

And for the idea that we're miles behind City, everyone apart from Mourinho could see that he didn't get the best out of this team last season and if we carried our form from the 1st half of the season into the 2nd half, surely the gap between us and City wouldn't be so high, isn't it?

This season alone he told us that we've a mediocre squad and mediocre players, but everyone can noticed that when the opposition team score and we're behind, we tend to play well and win games without conceding. Even during the City game, when they scored we immediately wake up and started to put more pressure on them, of course they are a great side and didn't capitulate like other teams we played did, but we showed again that we can go toe to toe with them with better coaching and better mentality (the like of Tottenham, Arsenal and Liverpool did it and we aren't miles behind these teams); of course we could lose but lose with some pride; I prefer to lose 3-1 but put some fight than lose the way we did.

And about Gary Neville, this guy is a club legend but let's say it, he's a mediocre pundit and a mediocre manager as proven by his stint at Valencia. I tend to ignore his punditry, he's also the the reason why I avoid watching MOTD; I loved him too much as a player so I just don't want to tarnish his reputation by listening to his analyses.

 

[shamans]

I wonder if he is keeping himself from directly criticising any Utd manager. I don't remember him criticising Moyes, with LvG though I think he had some harsh words which led to a sit-down with the latter (?), but not a criticism since.

Yeah. Possibly, but he shouldn't be a pundit then if he can't call it as it is!

I mean, it's one thing to say the manager should not be sacked but ZERO blame is too much.

 

[keener]

I thought Neville did a great job in that interview. He stated what I believe to be true, that just knee jerk firing the coach is NOT always the answer and rarely the healthy decision. His conclusion is mine, that the talent level is lower than needed to pursue the title and that firing the manager doesn't get us closer.

Now, I'm not sure that Jose is my choice to lead us back to the top but I do believe we'll get back on top. I'd prefer an attacking style just like the majority of the fan base.... but I do believe we'll get it right soon enough. We're going to spend as much as anyone over the next 5 years and hopefully we can acquire a better midfield and defense.

As for immediate changes to help our performances, I think Matic should be benched for 5 or 6 games to give Herrera, Periera and Fred a run in the deeper lying role. Additionally I'd like to see us pursue a top center back in the winter or next summer. It's difficult to determine why any top center back would leave a Bayern, Madrid, PSG etc.. to join us... but maybe we can sell a new influx of players as the final step back to the top of the EPL and world football. $200m, 500M, in the end though, we have to convince another half dozen (near) world class players that they should chose Manchester United. Right now, we're overpaying in a crazy market for good players, not great.

One up tick, I think Paul Pogba is ready to break out as truly elite. He is so influential and creative going forward, he's probably our most important player.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

what happened to being a 'professional' - why has he let it affect his performances so much?

In an age in which an entire Cheksea squad twice. And Real Madrid and Bayern squad have rebelled against managers you still ask this? Especially of a guy who was on their transfer list all summer and only stayed because they did their best to over price him when interested hardened?

Jérôme Boateng has phoned José Mourinho to tell him that he will not join Manchester United this summer. United made contact with Bayern Munich on Sunday to inquire what it would cost to sign the Germany international but the deal is now dead before the Premier League club even made an official bid.

I'm not sure what the point of that is. Of course he'd have to talk to JM, the one he would have had to play under. The fact remains though it was all Woodward's idea. He LOVES galacticos. He said money was available to sign a Varane for 100m didnt he?

We offered £57m - so we basically rated him as good as Laporte and they wanted Van Dijk figures

For who exactly? Skrinar, Romagnoli, Alderwereld? Or Giminez and Maguire before world cup begun?

Who is to say Gimenez would have even wanted to come pre-World Cup and if we would even have got the signing done on time knowing Woodward?

Woodward didnt even bother to try. But some how that is Mourinho's fault.....

where is the guarantee that Maguire even at 30-40m is a reliable CB outside of a 3 man backline and for a club the size of United?

Firstly, He doesnt operate in a back 3 for Leicester. He is still a far superior defender to Jones regardless

 

[Mainoldo]

You realise A) we need a squad to win something so me naming 14 'crap' players as you called them, proves my point that our squad isn't good enough. B) those 6 'crap' Man City players you mentioned would all most likely walk into our starting 11!!! Our good players are De Gea, Pogba, Shaw at times, Martial currently....who would make Chelsea, Liverpool or City's starting 11?

B) non of Man City players are walking into our team mate. Cut it out. Jose would have Sergio Augero and Berando Silva on the bench for Lukaku and Fellaini. Plus David Silva would be tracking full backs. So it’s clear what the problem is and your alphabetical points just proved it.

 

[Mainoldo]

In an age in which an entire Cheksea squad twice. And Real Madrid and Bayern squad have rebelled against managers you still ask this? Especially of a guy who was on their transfer list all summer and only stayed because they did their best to over price him when interested hardened?

I'm not sure what the point of that is. Of course he'd have to talk to JM, the one he would have had to play under. The fact remains though it was all Woodward's idea. He LOVES galacticos. He said money was available to sign a Varane for 100m didnt he?




For who exactly? Skrinar, Romagnoli, Alderwereld? Or Giminez and Maguire before World Cup begun?




Woodward didnt even bother. But some how that is Mourinho's fault.....




Firstly, He doesnt operate in a back 3 for Leicester. He is still a far superior defender to Jones regardless

Chief your an intelligent man. Stop chatting crap. It doesn’t suit you.

 

[Ekeke]

I’m all for signing competition for players to keep them on their toes. Maybe not where De Gea is concerned, but still. I’d definitely be trying to sign a striker this summer.

I think we over achieved last season tbh. It’s possible that we’ve regressed this season due to Jose, but I definitely think he squeezed every drop out of the players at his disposal in order to finish 2nd.

I'm not saying we need new players. And I'm not saying we dont. I'm saying clearly at this point in time Mourinho isnt even close to getting the most out of what he has. If he was doing that we'd have improved on last season. Instead we've got dramatically worse.

Thats the answer to the question Neville was asked. Mourinho at this point in time isnt getting a lot out of the players. Maybe in a month's time he's getting a decent amount out of them like last season.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Chief your an intelligent man. Stop chatting crap. It doesn’t suit you.

when you actually have an actual contribution to the discussion. let me know

 

[Mainoldo]

when you actually have an actual contribution to the discussion. let me know

Rather say nothing that spout out the blameless Jose drivel you’ve been talking recently. Don’t think a contribution would make a difference to you points.

 

[2 man midfield]

I'm not saying we need new players. And I'm not saying we dont. I'm saying clearly at this point in time Mourinho isnt even close to getting the most out of what he has. If he was doing that we'd have improved on last season. Instead we've got dramatically worse.

Thats the answer to the question Neville was asked. Mourinho at this point in time isnt getting a lot out of the players. Maybe in a month's time he's getting a decent amount out of them like last season.

I think he is. They're all out there running their bollocks off, week in, week out. Look at the effort they put in to overturn the Newcastle game, the Bournemouth game, Chelsea away, winning in Turin...

I'd be fine with the calls to sack him if it was clear he'd lost the dressing room - but it appears very much the opposite. The players are out their giving their all - just imagine if they had the quality to go with it!

 

[Mainoldo]

I think he is. They're all out there running their bollocks off, week in, week out. Look at the effort they put in to overturn the Newcastle game, the Bournemouth game, Chelsea away, winning in Turin...

I'd be fine with the calls to sack him if it was clear he'd lost the dressing room - but it appears very much the opposite. The players are out their giving their all - just imagine if they had the quality to go with it!

If they had some tactical philosophy to play with maybe we would see more quality.

 

[Canagel]

I think he is. They're all out there running their bollocks off, week in, week out. Look at the effort they put in to overturn the Newcastle game, the Bournemouth game, Chelsea away, winning in Turin...

I'd be fine with the calls to sack him if it was clear he'd lost the dressing room - but it appears very much the opposite. The players are out their giving their all - just imagine if they had the quality to go with it!

And they still get outrun by every team. Somehow.

 

[In Rainbows]

Are Moyes, LVG and Mourinho FM regens?

That is untrue. Moyes was never risk averse. Ever. At most he was tactically clueless as that infamous Fulham game with record crosses shows.

LVG was possesion obsessed and regimented. Determined to 'cerebralize' our football which unfortunatrly after a false daen turnes it sterile.

Mourinho has always been a transition manager. Like LVG he had a false dawn.

3 utterly different managers. Same results in terms of the football produced on pitch and results. It ceases being a coincedence when it gets to 3.....

3 managers of entirely opposing styles have failed and you think hiring a 4th will magically change things? That is what Einstein reffered to repeating the same experiement over and over expecting diferent results.

And yet, none are the modern attacking manager you seem to ignore wanting to try out before concluding every manager will fail (not that I believe your argument is valid even if that were the case). What has been a constant problem we as fans have noticed in our side every year? Our movement is crap and our players look like they have no set plan for what they want to do in attack. Why on earth would you not want to try out a modern attacking manager who is logically the best possible choice to fix this after we've had LVG, Moyes, and Mourinho? Answer me this.

Because the issues lengthening our decline are more than just the manager in charge. If you are fine with United changing manager after manager in the vain hope one will click thats on you. Some of us dont want our club to be the next Inter. Even a Chelsea change managers with a clear plan in mind. We dont have any.

I want firm decision making at the top and a clear long term plan. Not this bullshit of refusing to back a manager whilst not firing him. Not hiring managers whose footballing identity is similar to foster long term squad and playing style harmony. Nor reacting to whatever City or Pool do with their Bosses rather than having a clear 5 year plan as to where we want United to go. Be it driven by a chairman or a DOF.

Its your fault alone that you can't understand 3 managers of opposing styles getting similar results, with a similar group of players largely points to it meaning another manager change wont pull up any trees. To deny that completely is exactly the naivety I reffered to earlier.

Issues lengthening our decline is down to Woodward, but is not relevant to Managerial success based on the evidence. Woodward backed LVG. LVG simply failed. Woodward backed Mourinho for 2 straight summers. On the 3rd summer he still gave Mourinho 2 players to help in 2 areas. So it's not like he didn't give him anything in the 3rd summer. Moreoever, Woodward tried to follow the Fergie model by giving the Manager all the power to dictate which players/style the transfers will lend itself help to.

Your entire argument for Woodward being the problem for our manager's performances is that he didn't give enough money in the 3rd summer transfer window. That's an incredibly weak argument to prove Woodward is the problem for our managers' failings.

I also want firm decision making at the top and a clear long term plan. What that means is that our board and DOF decide on a vision for what they want out of managers. I would imagine that would be a platform where youngsters can bleed through, and we play attacking football. But what does this have to do with Mourinho? If anything, this just means Mourinho should be out because he's never been one to follow that. If anything, what Woodward did this summer by demanding younger transfer targets follows that vision.

Unless of course you want the vision to be one where we play defensive football, in which case it would make sense to stick with Mourinho and then follow up with hirings in the mold of Mourinho, like Simeone, and Conte.

You still haven't proven the next manager will fail btw because as I stated, we've yet to try someone like Klopp, Tuchel, Bielsa, Pep, etc...

Are you kidding me?

He hasnt been given free reign to sign every target he has asked for in ANY window since he arrived.

He hasnt been allowed to upgrade on poorer players in his squad like Jones nor Darmian for example nor to sell them.

He inherited a squad with a dead right flank, no holding players, no right winger and no conpetition at center forward. Yet He hasnt been allowed to invest freely in those areas.

When he signs a player and it doesnt work out for whatever reason it is used as a stick to beat him and an excuse to deny him funds. Whilst he can see a Pep sign Bravo he fails, then uupgrade to Ederson without so much as a blink. Going from Nolito to Mahrez is another example. Even Klopp went from Karius to Alisson and Klavan to Van Dijk and never got second guessed by his board.


Ironically those are some of the things the departed LVG has since moaned about and oh how we laughed. But are we still lauhghing?


I fail to see how the next manager will face anything different with the same structure in place and no long term direction for the club for a manager to fit into.

What evidence is there that he hasn't been given free reign until this summer? Where is the evidence? And this also is the opposite of what you want which is Woodward not in charge accompanied with a longterm vision or plan. This means that Mourinho is more likely to be restricted in that system because he would have to follow the DOF and the club's long term plan.

Mourinho hasn't been allowed to upgrade on poorer players? Really? He's gotten Lukaku, Mkhitaryan, Zlatan, Sanchez, Pogba, Fred, Matic, Lindelof, Bailey, and Dalot. It's his fault if after 10 players he can't seem to fix areas to which you can then easily focus on another area. Has he fixed our midfield after 3 signings? No. Did he fix our CB situation after 2 signings? No. What about our attack after signing Pogba, Fred, Lukaku and having 3 further chances with Sanchez, Zlatan, and Mkhitaryan? Nope, no attack fixed. I separated the latter 3 because he doesn't have access to all 3 at once for obvious reasons, but it's important to point out that he did have access to those assets and our attack was still garbage while they were/are there.

Just what are you expecting exactly? How is it that Klopp is able to get something out of a midfield of Fabinho, Keita, Milner, and Wijnaldum signings, but Mourinho can't do the same with Pogba, Matic, and Fred? Is the difference really Milner and Wijnaldum? Is that kind of signing what's keeping Mourinho from fixing it?

Hell, maybe Mourinho would be given more leeway if he actually had a semblance of a system worth believing in. With Pep, he was initially questioned and criticized non stop for trying to play his playstyle in the PL. It was not working initially and you could easily see where it was failing. However, you could easily see what he wanted. We're 3 seasons in and what on earth is Mourinho trying to implement? If you're Woodward, what can you possibly see on the pitch that makes you think "right, that player clearly isn't working under Mourinho's system"? Because you can easily see what Klopp and Pep are trying to get out of their players. In Mou's case it's always "that player is awful because he's just not good."

Really? It was Mourinho's fault that a team with clear weaknesses in defence, forced to rely on Bailly's inexperienced and brittle body, De Gea's brilliance, and cagey football to protect that defence finished 2nd, with one of the best defensive records in the league, due to the cageyness, rather than a credit to him?

And its now HIS fault that suddenly that same defence got exposed defensively this season when even the slightest amount of open football was attempted after a summer of ZERO EFFORT to upgrade the defensive personnel, plus the departure of Blind who helped hide them flaws some what, never being replaced?

How does that work exactly?

I already explained this to you.

Step 1. The goals conceded stats did not show Mourinho fixed the defense last season. You and Mourinho agreed hence why you wanted another signing at CB.

Step 2. Was this record due to Mourinho? No because the stats showed United conceded the most goal chances of all the top 6 sides and de Gea had the most saves. So our defensive record was more due to de Gea's brilliance, than Mourinho. If it was due to Mourinho, then our defensive set up would be there to help hide our defensive fragility. How would that show? By the goal chances conceded stat. However we actually did in fact concede the most goal chances of all the top 6 sides relying on de Gea to have the most saves of any keeper in the top 6.

No matter how you look at it, the goals conceded record is down to de Gea, not Mourinho.

This is the kinda stupid argument that gets my goat. Bailly and Lindeloff were bought for the future! Not the now! The CBS that NEED upgrading are the experienced ones. Namely the shit Jones, the painfully average Smalling and the injury prone Rojo! Those are the CB'S he SORT to upgrade on in the summer. NOT because he 'doesn't fancy Bailly or Lindeloff'.

And you know this how? As far as I'm aware, it's only this summer that Woodward started to dictate Mourinho find younger targets. If that wasn't the case, why did he allow Mourinho to buy Matic, Sanchez, Mkhitaryan, etc...? Seems contradictory to what you're saying. What I see is the same structure as the LVG days which is managers have more free reign at United than they would at other clubs with a DOF.

BTW, you're making it sound like Jones, Smalling, and Rojo are ages apart from Bailley and Lindelof. They're only 26-28 years old. Not exactly old Vidic or Rio.

You think its mere ' confidence' that makes the likes of Jones, Valencia, Damian or Smalling average to shit at their jobs? This is the naivety I talked about....


More naivety. You seriously think 'mere postivity' would have granted Bailly and Lindeloff the requisite experience to be flawless leaders of our defence? That mere 'postivity' would have stopped Jones fecking up a ggood performance vs Spurs? That its 'lack of positivity' that had us exposed vs Brightonfor example?

Come on
....

And yet apart from Darmian, Mourinho keeps playing them. A simple mistake from Bailley and he's no longer playing at all where as others are allowed free reign to screw the side over.

Hmmm, so in your words confidence plays no part in player performances? Do you seriously believe that? Just what are you saying here? BTW, you don't have to be positive for things that don't deserve positivity. We're just saying Mourinho should not be overly negative towards his players because it's counterintuitive to getting the best performances out of them. Also, being overly negative could mean your squad no longer plays for you which is something that happens all the time in football. It happened at Mourinho's last club did it not?

I marvel how JM is glibly accused of 'playing favorites'. For example with a Matic. Who has literally been the ONLY fit natural holding player for the longest spell this season.

Alternatives like McTominay, Herrera and the in form Fellaini have all been injured for a month or more. Whilst Pereira, is not only NOT a natural in the role, his last outing was a night mare and to his detriment, our team results went so far down hill since then to make it close to fool hardy to risk him in the role in recent times.

He is playing favorites. Are you telling me he wasn't playing favorites when he decided to let Sanchez start match after match despite being awful every time? Same with Lukaku and Matic?

How far up Mourinho's arse are you? Why is it that Matic is allowed to continually be awful, but Pereira is only allowed 1 bad half of football for him to no longer get match time? What does it matter that Matic is a holding player if he provides no defensive value this season? He's slow and often is the cause of our goals being conceded.

This is a lie. Liverpool and City both have by FAR outstripped or spending on defence. The one department that wins you league titles. Its is thus no suorise where they are whilst we are floundering with a goal difference of negative 1!


And did they have squad isssues like no decent right back, no single quality experienced center halves and no tight sided attackers when they decided to not spend?

There are honestly few things dumber than trying to liken our situation to Spurs'. For us failure to spend was footballing suicide. For Spurs it was just financial sense.

Oh, so now it's whether or not City have outspent us on defense? Anything to make Mourinho look better huh? So it doesn't matter that Liverpool spent the same amount as us, but because it's not done in a certain area it doesn't count? Then what does that say about our attack and midfield? We've far outstripped their spending on midfield and our midfield looks crap. What's your excuse on that? Oh did I just find a flaw in your argument?

And how is it relevant to point out what made sense financially for Spurs and us when regarding transfers relating to managerial performance? It's completely irrelevant. The point is, Poch has got Spurs 7 points above United despite spending nothing this summer while United spent money on Fred and Dalot. You Mourinho cultists love to point out how we were the 2nd best team after last season which is proof that United were right on track, yet without spending money Spurs are now doing better this season.

Where is the logic in all of this?

 

[mancan92]

I think he is. They're all out there running their bollocks off, week in, week out. Look at the effort they put in to overturn the Newcastle game, the Bournemouth game, Chelsea away, winning in Turin...

I'd be fine with the calls to sack him if it was clear he'd lost the dressing room - but it appears very much the opposite. The players are out their giving their all - just imagine if they had the quality to go with it!

You know statistically we run less than all those teams.......

 

[Foxbatt]

Running your bollocks off is not going to win games. They need to play good football to win matches. This is the job of the Manager and he is not getting them to do that.

 

[2 man midfield]

If they had some tactical philosophy to play with maybe we would see more quality.

Maybe. Not having players with a really average ceiling would also help.

And they still get outrun by every team. Somehow.

You know statistically we run less than all those teams.......

Because it's Jose's way, I guess. He isn't one to press, he wants the team to conserve energy. Notice how Bournemouth were fecked after about 70 minutes the other day, and a goal looked increasingly likely because we weren't? It's because of that. I don't pretend to like how we play, or our conservative style, but there's a reason for stats like this. It certainly isn't laziness, or players not being arsed.

 

[Ekeke]

I think he is. They're all out there running their bollocks off, week in, week out. Look at the effort they put in to overturn the Newcastle game, the Bournemouth game, Chelsea away, winning in Turin...

I'd be fine with the calls to sack him if it was clear he'd lost the dressing room - but it appears very much the opposite. The players are out their giving their all - just imagine if they had the quality to go with it!

Running? Effort? No. Just no.

They dont give up, they think we can nick something in the last 10 mins. But they arent running their bollocks off. Just a couple of players do that. And playing good football is about more than running around.

 

[elmo]

You know statistically we run less than all those teams.......

Because they're sleepwalking on the pitch for the first 30 mins every damn game.

I swear our players need to be fined every single time they start a match playing like they're walking into a training session.

 

[Raees]

Because they're sleepwalking on the pitch for the first 30 mins every damn game.

I swear our players need to be fined every single time they start a match playing like they're walking into a training session.

That is because it is the tactical approach of the manager to sit off. The fact it happens every week cannot be a ‘player’ thing - it’s Mourinhos approach to be cautious and be passive until of course shit hits the fan and then it’s all hands on deck and fighting to get ourselves back in the game and forced to be proactive and go on the front foot.

 

[Thiagoal]

B) non of Man City players are walking into our team mate. Cut it out. Jose would have Sergio Augero and Berando Silva on the bench for Lukaku and Fellaini. Plus David Silva would be tracking full backs. So it’s clear what the problem is and your alphabetical points just proved it.

To be fair Pep gets the likes of David Silva tracking back, winning the ball back and pressing too! The difference when they get the ball however is light and day!

 

[Red_Ramirez]

It's about effort and desire and that comes from within.

A lot of players in this squad are as casual as feck and stroll around the pitch like its a fecking testimonial

You can probably count on one hand how many give it maximum effort week in week out.

 

[2 man midfield]

Running? Effort? No. Just no.

They dont give up, they think we can nick something in the last 10 mins. But they arent running their bollocks off. Just a couple of players do that. And playing good football is about more than running around.

Agree to disagree then. I think the players are still playing for the manager, which is important.

 

[devilish]

Both Souness and Gaz had valid points. Its true that Mou should be doing better with the squad as hand but its also true that Mou isn't United only problem. However their inability to go past their morals, be pragmatic and see the bigger picture kind of explains why both had failed as managers big time

 

[devilish]

It's about effort and desire and that comes from within.

A lot of players in this squad are as casual as feck and stroll around the pitch like its a fecking testimonial

You can probably count on one hand how many give it maximum effort week in week out.

Many players left their football do the talking. You won't see Pirlo, Baggio, Rio or Cantona running up and down the pitch mostly because they didn't need to. Even those renowned for their passion wouldn't waste unnecessary energy if they can help it. I am pretty sure that Robbie Savage covered far more inches of pitch per game then lets say Roy Keane or Paul Scholes.

The trouble with our squad is that it is devoid of both passion and talent. The manager makes it worse by opting for workhorses instead of talented players which of course tend to increase the gap in terms of talent when facing a top side. For example I can't understand why the hell we opted for Lingard and a non fully recovered Fellaini instead of Mata and Fred. Why he keeps rambling about how good Mctominay is only to insist playing a clearly off form Matic week in week out. It really doesn't make sense.

 

[Maticmaker]

Gary's a true red and he's great at analysing what has already taken place, i.e. behind the curve; but he's not so good at predicting what will happen ahead of the curve, as his foray into management in Spain demonstrated.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

And yet, none are the modern attacking manager you seem to ignore wanting to try out before concluding every manager will fail (not that I believe your argument is valid even if that were the case).

I don't see why you keep misunderstanding my argument. My argument is there is no evidence that shows another change of manager will sort out United's playing style and results issues. Because the issues are actually more than just lacking a good 'modern attacking manager' and I've given actual reasons why too.

I fail to see how you keep that morphing into the laughable 'every manager we hire next will fail' argument. I mean really......

What has been a constant problem we as fans have noticed in our side every year? Our movement is crap and our players look like they have no set plan for what they want to do in attack. Why on earth would you not want to try out a modern attacking manager who is logically the best possible choice to fix this after we've had LVG, Moyes, and Mourinho? Answer me this.

I already did. You just are not bothering to internalize it. I'll repeat them again:

1. We don't have a good defence which is essential for playing risk football.

2. Our entire right flank is dead. You wont be playing free flowing and fluent football with one dead flank.
3. We have changed philosophical and playing style direction 3 times in less than 5 seasons. That is not conducive to having a team that can consistently implement fluid and free flowing football.

4. We still have not addressed any squad holes in all that time. For example:

i. We still don't have 4 attacking fullbacks.
ii. We still have a weak central defence.
iii. We still have no competent right sided attacker.
iv. We still have only one truly natural holding midfield just like in Fergie's last years when Fletcher got sick and all we had was Carrick

Nothing in our chairman's transfer market dealings shows merely hiring a 'good modern attacking manager' will change it.

These are the reasons a mere change of manager isn't a solution. Our club first needs to hire a D.O.F. Needs to establish a 5 year plan and a direction we want to go in and a philosophy we want to implement. Then we can hire a manager who fits the bill
You instead want us rather to skip all that and just appoint a new attack oriented manager. It's a marvel you think its then I with the flawed logic!

Issues lengthening our decline is down to Woodward, but is not relevant to Managerial success based on the evidence.

Which is 100℅ wrong. The two are completely inter linked. I don't expect any manager outside a miracle worker like Fergie himself succeeding the traditional United way in such circumstance

....
Woodward backed Mourinho for 2 straight summers.

No he did not. In Mourinho's first window he refused to get him Perisic. In the window he got the Bailly's he still refused to buy Persic and a left back like Sandro. Then strangely he eagerly backed the exchange deal for Alexis in Jan. Same way he is now rumored to be willing to 'back' the manager with 100m in January. This past window was a continuation of the same policy. Just more extreme with him even not selling the likes of Darmian when he could.

Woodward consistently doesn't give this manager what he and his staff ask for, whilst we can afford it, then our fans act all 'surprised and appalled' that things are falling apart.

That is why I marvel when you think merely appointing a more attack oriented manager will sort out such a haphazard approach to recruitment. On top of you thinking JM has enjoyed unrestricted backing in the market.

On the 3rd summer he still gave Mourinho 2 players to help in 2 areas. So it's not like he didn't give him anything in the 3rd summer.

This is remarkable! Were United's problems before the start of this summer just in '2 areas'? It baffles me how you'd even dare to call that 'backing'.
Woodward plain dropped the ball and fecked up any chance of progress this season with the shit he pulled in the summer. If he didn't trust JM with money nor the targets he wanted, a list he received by April, he should have simply sacked him way before the window started. Then appointed a man he could trust. To attempt in any shape or form to blame this all on JM, even if you think him a fraud as a manager, is just brain dead stupid, Im sorry to say. He isn't the one who mucked up recruitment in the summer nor did he extend his own contract against Woodward's wishes.

Your entire argument for Woodward being the problem for our manager's performances is that he didn't give enough money in the 3rd summer transfer window.

That's an incredibly weak argument to prove Woodward is the problem for our managers' failings.

Wrong again. Its clear you are still not paying much attention to my actual arguments. Prefering instead to attack these laughable caricatures like the one above...

I also want firm decision making at the top and a clear long term plan. What that means is that our board and DOF decide on a vision for what they want out of managers. I would imagine that would be a platform where youngsters can bleed through, and we play attacking football. But what does this have to do with Mourinho?

Nothing at all. You have finally just arrived at the crux of my arguments.

My argument from the start has been we must fix our long term planning, philosophy and recruitment by appointing a top DOF. Then and ONLY then should we change manager again, if and ONLY IF the DOF decides the current man isn't the right man for the plan. This is a similar stance to what G. Neville is saying. Difference is he had faith in JM whilst I never had any, when it comes to what the current United job needed.

If anything, this just means Mourinho should be out because he's never been one to follow that. If anything, what Woodward did this summer by demanding younger transfer targets follows that vision.

I haven't argued to keep Mourinho at any point. Not once. I also fail to see the basis you use to praise Woodward for the train wreck of a summer transfer window that we had

You still haven't proven the next manager will fail btw because as I stated, we've yet to try someone like Klopp, Tuchel, Bielsa, Pep, etc...

That is because that was NEVER my argument.

My argument was merely appointing a new manager, for a 4th philosophical and style of play change in less than 5 years, wont make ANY DIFFERENCE if our club stays as is right now. Namely sans a long term plan, a proper head of recruitment and a set direction in which the club is going, that wont be subject to how other clubs conduct business.
I do not understand why you keep confusing this position for what it is not.

What evidence is there that he hasn't been given free reign until this summer? Where is the evidence?

I've given it to you 3 times now. You just plain pretend you havent seen it.

And this also is the opposite of what you want which is Woodward not in charge accompanied with a longterm vision or plan. This means that Mourinho is more likely to be restricted in that system because he would have to follow the DOF and the club's long term plan.

That would be the case if United were stupid enough to appoint a DOF who has no belief in JM's manager style yet insists on keeping him in the job. Because JM was successful at Real Madrid, Inter aand earlier at Porto all under a DOF who liked his managerial style.

Im also baffled as to how you imagine recruiting a DOF who might chose to dump Mourinho is against what I want. You need to pay better attention to what the person you are having a discussion with actually says........

Mourinho hasn't been allowed to upgrade on poorer players? Really? He's gotten Lukaku, Mkhitaryan, Zlatan, Sanchez, Pogba, Fred, Matic, Lindelof, Bailey, and Dalot.

This is a joke right?


Zlatan was bought as a world class experienced striker to lead the line. After RVP and Roo declining we had none.

Lukaku was a direct replacement for a departing Zlatan. Not an upgrade on a poorer player.

Fred was brought in to fill the void left by Carrick retiring. Again, not an upgrade on a poorer player.

Mhkitaryan was bought to fill the world class number 10 void, in which he worked for a time. Not an upgrade on any poorer player.

Bailly, Lindeloff and Dalot were all brought in as young players to develop for the future, to give us squad depth. Who were they upgrades on? Nobody.

Matic was a like for like attempt replace an aging Carrick. Not an upgrade on anyone

Pogba was an attempt to get us a world class midfield playmaker. Our first since Scholes retired. He was an upgrade on no one. He was a squad hole filler.

In that time the players we have needed to upgrade on are:
Valencia and Young, plus a by then misfiring Darmian and Shaw at right and left back.

The experienced cbs at the club. Namely the average Smalling, the useless and oft injured Jones, plus now the freshly injury prone Rojo.

Mata as a right wing option.

Mata and Lingard as a number 10 options

Rashford as experienced competition for Lukaku.

Having no world class attacker.

JM has not since he arrived been allowed to recruit people like Sandro to improve our fullbacks. Was denied this summer the chance to improve on Rojo and Jones, was also denied a chance to recruit competition for Lukaku. Has been denied from day 1 a chance to recruit an ambidextrous two flank winger like Perisic.

Literally the only upgrade he has been enabled to recruit is Alexis for Mhkitrayan.
So what the hell are you talking about and how on earth is that 'his fault'?

It's his fault if after 10 players he can't seem to fix areas to which you can then easily focus on another area. Has he fixed our midfield after 3 signings? No.

Of course not. Because we needed more than 3 signings to fix it. duh....

Did he fix our CB situation after 2 signings? No.

Obviously not. Because again we didn't need just 2 signings to fix it. If Pep at a City signed 5 in just two windows (4 fullbacks and Laporte), what makes you believe we needed only 2 to improve?

What about our attack after signing Pogba, Fred, Lukaku and having 3 further chances with Sanchez, Zlatan, and Mkhitaryan? Nope, no attack fixed.

Seriously? You think only signing Pogba, Lukaku/Zlatan, Alexis/Mhikitaryan was enough to fix these problems:

1. No top level midfield playmaker/talent
2. No top level number 10.
3. No lead the line striker.
4. No quality right sided attacker.
5. No world class attacker
6. No experienced competition for lead striker


Seriously? And you think its 'all JMs fault' yet he wasn't the one in charge of purchases?

Get outta here....

How is it that Klopp is able to get something out of a midfield of Fabinho, Keita, Milner, and Wijnaldum signings, but Mourinho can't do the same with Pogba, Matic, and Fred? Is the difference really Milner and Wijnaldum? Is that kind of signing what's keeping Mourinho from fixing it?

The difference is Klopp gets EVERYTHING he wants, as regards to how he builds a team from his board. He goes from front to back.
JM in comparison builds from back to front, but isn't getting anywhere near the same backing. He is instead ONLY being allowed to place 'one brick here, and one brick there'. Rather than being handed proper backing to build department by department. I don't have to like Mourinho one bit to see the difference. Nor to see its unfair to expect him to be reaping the exact same dividends as Klopp in his circumstance.

Step 1. The goals conceded stats did not show Mourinho fixed the defense last season. You and Mourinho agreed hence why you wanted another signing at CB.

Correct. So please explain why you think Mourinho a numpty wanting to sign better center halves?

Step 2. Was this record due to Mourinho? No because the stats showed United conceded the most goal chances of all the top 6 sides and De Gea had the most saves. So our defensive record was more due to De Gea's brilliance, than Mourinho. If it was due to Mourinho, then our defensive set up would be there to help hide our defensive fragility. How would that show? By the goal chances conceded stat. However we actually did in fact concede the most goal chances of all the top 6 sides relying on De Gea to have the most saves of any keeper in the top 6.

All this points precisely to United a) needing better center backs and b) having to play cagey to protect a clearly not up to task defence and it not working.

Hence I ask again, how does this prove that Mourinho is a managerial numpty to want to upgrade his center backs? Or that it is all his fault Woodward refused to recruit them?

No matter how you look at it, the goals conceded record is down to De Gea, not Mourinho.

That is pure nonsense. It was a combination of De Gea's brilliance and Mourinho's cagey football that United not only conceded those few goals, they managed to finish higher than both Livepool, Spurs and Chelsea, in second places who were were assured all season long were vastly superior teams. To attempt say we finished second in spite of JM's in put is the height of blinkered stupidity. And I have zero love for the guy....

And you know this how?...

sigh....I'm not repeating it......

.

BTW, you're making it sound like Jones, Smalling, and Rojo are ages apart from Bailley and Lindelof. They're only 26-28 years old. Not exactly old Vidic or Rio.

And that excuses them how? They ARE our most experienced CBs and they are average to shit! Yet the likes of you want us to believe JM is SO STUPID to want to replace them, plus even worse than SO STUPID as to want to replace Bailly and Lindeloff over them......

And yet apart from Darmian, Mourinho keeps playing them.

Are the alternatives superior?

A simple mistake from Bailley and he's no longer playing at all where as others are allowed free reign to screw the side over.

What? You seriously think that horror of a half vs brighton that clearly scarred Bailly mentally, was merely 'a simple mistake'?

And in his last 2 appearances since. Has he played better than either Smalling or Lindeloff as to warrant 'being given a chance' ala the laughable Jones vs spurs and Derby who is benching just like him?

Hmmm, so in your words confidence plays no part in player performances? Do you seriously believe that?

Do you? Because that ISN'T what I said at all! I simply said rather that merely being positive nor confidence will ever increase the actual level of quality our current defenders posses. The shit and average will stay shit and average. Just confident and positive shit and average players.....

We're just saying Mourinho should not be overly negative towards his players because it's counterintuitive to getting the best performances out of them.

Which is the issue right there. The likes of INSIST one conflating JM being honest with being 'overly negative'. Overly negative was David Moyes in terms of what he would say. JM is just being honest. Whilst being an arsehole about it at times

He is playing favorites. Are you telling me he wasn't playing favorites when he decided to let Sanchez start match after match despite being awful every time? Same with Lukaku and Matic?

I will ask you again:
How is it playing favorites to play Matic for most of the last 12 league games, whilst he is the ONLY holding player who has been fit the longest in that period? A period that results plummeted so low, risking Pereira at a time like that would have done more harm than good to the player?

How is it playing favorites with Lukaku? Playing those 12 games when his potential back up was a) Rashford, off form too and suspended for 3 matches b) Alexis, both injured and in an out of form in the same period? With Martial the ONLY other alternative having taken back his left wing berth?

You cannot honestly blame JM for favoritism this season. Its last year when the likes of Valencia, Alexis and Young got away murder. This season 'favorites' like Valencia and Lukaku have easily lost their places. Alexis too.

How far up Mourinho's arse are you?

You first tell me how much of a natural born idiot are you? Because you'd have to be exceptionally stupid and have it in DNA based to allow it to even flicker in your brain that I favour JM in any way.

You have to be pretty stupid too, to not be able to tell the difference between arguing about what Mourinho is faced with and loving the guy....

Oh, so now it's whether or not City have outspent us on defense?

Are you really that darn blinkered that you do not see a co-relation between our under investment in defence and why we currently have a negative 1 goal difference after 12 league games for the first time in over a generation?

All you see is 'it's whether or not City have outspent us on defense'

And 'Shit manager JM' is in charge? Seriously?

Anything to make Mourinho look better huh?

How the heck does any of that make him 'look good'?

Feck Mourinho! Has he won the league and the UCL amidst that under investment? Has he played champagne football in spite of it? What the feck are you on about?

So it doesn't matter that Liverpool spent the same amount as us, but because it's not done in a certain area it doesn't count?

What kind of nonsense logic is this? So what if Liverpool have spent the same as us? Do we have the same issues? And are you seriously attempting to deny defences don't win titles and argue how a team invests in its defence and how that affects on pitch success doesn't matter?

Then what does that say about our attack and midfield? We've far outstripped their spending on midfield and our midfield looks crap. What's your excuse on that? Oh did I just find a flaw in your argument?

All you did was expose yet again your penchant for poor thinking.
We don't have the same recruitment needs as Liverpool nor the same way our respective managers build their teams. To just copy and paste spending and use it as a tool to judge how we build our team is plain fecking stupid. Same stupid as comparing Spurs lack of spending to United, like our squads are in similar states. Or those numpties who try to decry how Pep has built his squad at City due to the expense.

And how is it relevant to point out what made sense financially for Spurs and us when regarding transfers relating to managerial performance? It's completely irrelevant.

Its only 'irrelevant' to you if you cannot grasp that Spurs do NOT and have not had the squad holes United has had since before fecking Mourinho arrived. Holes that United has done little to fix. Under EVERY MANAGER SINCE FERGIE!

The point is, Poch has got Spurs 7 points above United despite spending nothing this summer while United spent money on Fred and Dalot.

Which isn't a freaking point at all! Spurs did NOT need to spend to maintain their position in the league. For their squad did not posses terminal holes. For United it was mandatory to spend and spend heavily to even have the slightest chance of maintaining second place, because the holes in the squad are terminal and rivals like Chelsea and Liverpool especially were certain to improve via investment. I swear the concept isn't rocket science.....

You Mourinho cultists love to point out how we were the 2nd best team after last season which is proof that United were right on track, yet without spending money Spurs are now doing better this season.

I don't have to be a fecking 'Mourinho cultist' nor have ANY ounce of love for the clown to see United finishing above spurs could not be maintained without significantly improving our squad this summer in the market.


Its like you are utterly oblivious to the fact Spurs has been stable for 5 seasons, with one recruitment direction, all squad holes addressed, one playing style and managerial footballing direction , a squad that has stayed the same for 3 of those 5 years, players recruited last season finally settling in to that stability, and key squad players like Lamela and Winks returning from long injury lays offs. To dare ask 'why did the not need to spend to maintain success' and worse to dare compare their situation to United's , when you are aware of these facts , is beyond the heights of willful stupidity.

 

[Red_Ramirez]

Many players left their football do the talking. You won't see Pirlo, Baggio, Rio or Cantona running up and down the pitch mostly because they didn't need to. Even those renowned for their passion wouldn't waste unnecessary energy if they can help it. I am pretty sure that Robbie Savage covered far more inches of pitch per game then lets say Roy Keane or Paul Scholes.

The trouble with our squad is that it is devoid of both passion and talent. The manager makes it worse by opting for workhorses instead of talented players which of course tend to increase the gap in terms of talent when facing a top side. For example I can't understand why the hell we opted for Lingard and a non fully recovered Fellaini instead of Mata and Fred. Why he keeps rambling about how good McTominay is only to insist playing a clearly off form Matic week in week out. It really doesn't make sense.

No one in world football covered more ground than peak (1996-2001) Roy Keane. Scholes also wasn't shy of a bit of graft either and he was a asthma sufferer. Beckham and Giggs were world class talents who worked their arses off helping their full-backs

These must've been a dream to manage. World class players with high concentration levels, high work-rate and great team players

 

[Keefy18]

@Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber @In Rainbows

I've been reading your discussion / debate in great detail and personally I have to say I am siding with In Rainbows in this one.

Red Indian to touch on some points you made and completely miss out on and how ridiculous some of your sentiments are, I'll take some of your quotes and share my own sentiments on them if I may?

"I don't see why you keep misunderstanding my argument. My argument is there is no evidence that shows another change of manager will sort out United's playing style and results issues. Because the issues are actually more than just lacking a good 'modern attacking manager' and I've given actual reasons why too" -

Well his argument is blown out the water in the fact that our play has already massively changed from LVG to Jose. LVG was a possession based manager, Jose is not. He gladly will concede possession and attempt a counter attack or long back to catch the opposition out. LVG retained possession religiously and wanted attacks in only the most certain of circumstances.

How you can attempt to say it wouldn't there for change again with an attack minded manager is bizarre. Of course it would change, all new managers bring fresh ideas and they will turn out either to be good or bad for the team / club.

"1. We don't have a good defence which is essential for playing risk football.

2. Our entire right flank is dead. You wont be playing free flowing and fluent football with one dead flank.
3. We have changed philosophical and playing style direction 3 times in less than 5 seasons. That is not conducive to having a team that can consistently implement fluid and free flowing football."

4. We still have not addressed any squad holes in all that time. For example:

i. We still don't have 4 attacking fullbacks.
ii. We still have a weak central defence.
iii. We still have no competent right sided attacker.
iv. We still have only one truly natural holding midfield just like in Fergie's last years when Fletcher got sick and all we had was Carrick

Nothing in our chairman's transfer market dealings shows merely hiring a 'good modern attacking manager' will change it."

Again, this argument is more than a bit silly when its up to the manager how his team is built, you can't seriously be suggesting all our players are there cause of Woodwards decisions? If you are then there really is no reasoning to be had here. Fergie never received every single player he wanted, see Batistuta as an example, we ended up with Dwight Yorke instead.

1)If our defence is not good enough (personally believe it could be very good with Dalot, Bailly, Lindelof and Shaw), then its ultimately up to Jose for any number of reasons.
2) Again is it any wonder our CB's are weak when he publicly slates them, one of our greatest CB's Rio said he wouldn't want to play for Jose after his comments on them
3) If our right flank hasn't been addressed then that too is on Jose. You mention later on in your ramblings about Perisic. We'll get to that shortly and how daft that idea is.
4) No we don't only have one natural holding MF, Jose just plays his favourite one, religiously regardless of form. Oh and he has Scott McTominay and Periera to play there but more damning is he decided to sell of our best passing defensive midfielder in the summer, which you conveniently ignore as well... Daley Blind!

Essentially, what I'm saying is Jose has been given 400m in transfer funds and repeatedly broken transfer records in various avenues and still he can't get his players into anything close to resembling a team, its a managers job to work with what resources he has and make do the best with that. He isn't doing that no matter what way you spin it.

He could easily promote from within and bleed in youth, he chooses not to. He doesn't have to have expensive signing after another to address Fullbacks, CB's, RW or DMF.

"No he did not. In Mourinho's first window he refused to get him Perisic. In the window he got the Bailly's he still refused to buy Persic and a left back like Sandro. Then strangely he eagerly backed the exchange deal for Alexis in Jan. Same way he is now rumored to be willing to 'back' the manager with 100m in January. This past window was a continuation of the same policy. Just more extreme with him even not selling the likes of Darmian when he could.

Woodward consistently doesn't give this manager what he and his staff ask for, whilst we can afford it, then our fans act all 'surprised and appalled' that things are falling apart."

This entire paragraph is factually untrue and I'd request you do some homework on what actually happened.

To start with, Jose publicly chased Pogba and demanded him, he wanted Zlatan quite clearly. Bailly was his first signing, he quite clearly wanted Matic as he is still to this day his go to guy and untouchable regardless of the aforementioned form. In short the only player I think you could consider he didn't want was Lukaku as he publicly chased Morata to some degree but Real wouldn't sell to us at the asking price we wanted, so Lukaku followed a week later. In the summer just gone, he stated "A Brazilian would arrive" and low and behold, Fred is signed. He publicly demanded Dalot and stated he had to be signed quickly as he was highly sought after and even though injured a deal had to be done, in as many words.

Two final things, Perisic... Why are folks so hung up on this deal? If you actually looked at Perisic form last season he managed to be involved in 22 goals in all competitions over 3317 mins of football.
Martial, who had his worst season for us last year performed better than him, he was involved in 20 goals in 2337 mins.

So for arguments sake would signing Perisic actually of made that big a difference? Bear in mind, Perisic plays LW and wouldn't of actually addressed the RW issue. He's played his entire career for Inter on the LW.

And lets not forget Jose quite clearly wanted rid of Martial this summer gone and the irony is now Martial is keeping Jose in a job! How convenient you ignore this hey?

Finally as for Darmian, feel free to google his quotes about his desired move back to Italy in the summer... he quote publicly and openly admits that Jose wouldn't release him for sale.

Again, in a nutshell how in the blue hell is Woody at fault for simply going with his managers wishes 99% of the time? The one time he's started to over rule Jose was in the summer as In Rainbows states which is a fact. There is no value in signing near 30 year old Toby from Spurs, look at the sharp decline in Sanchez & Matic. If your signing players in that age bracket you can expect short term returns for you buck. Same goes for Boateng and Godin, well n truly over the hill. Maguire for 75m? You must be having a laugh! Not worth it at all.


And as for telling Jose where to go for Martial, you know your manager is utterly clueless when an accountant is making better football decisions over players. Remember Martial is keeping Jose in the job at this point really.

"Seriously? You think only signing Pogba, Lukaku/Zlatan, Alexis/Mhikitaryan was enough to fix these problems:"

All these players and more had no issues with performance pre Jose.

Pogba was in the World XI when we bought him, Alexis one of the PL best forwards, Mikha voted best player in Germany I believe. I could go on with Martial, voted best young player in the world in his debut season, Rashford the hottest young forward to burst on the scene in 2016.

Again, new manager, new ideas and renewed confidence.

You seem to think quite obviously Woody runs EVERYTHING at United and Jose is hard done by, The only time he's appeared to step in is regarding Martial and not willing to pay for a CB that isn't worth spending on considering the options available. I mean, Jose the other week sits there and praises Bonucci being a genius and what not, is he forgetting he feckin sold Bonucci and used him as a make weight in a deal whilst at Inter? The manages judgement on a player is woeful. See Salah and KDB for further evidence of Jose transfer genius.

If a manager can't even decide on his best XI after 400m investment over 10 outfield players and 2 and a bit seasons in, I'm sorry but that has sweet FA to do with the board, its solely on the manager cause that sum of money shows he's clearly been backed and given time to implement his ideas.

You'll no doubt ignore all the facts I've provided re transfer of Blind, Martial and Darmian (as examples) and prattle off again about Evil Woody!

 

[In Rainbows]

I don't see why you keep misunderstanding my argument. My argument is there is no evidence that shows another change of manager will sort out United's playing style and results issues. Because the issues are actually more than just lacking a good 'modern attacking manager' and I've given actual reasons why too.

I fail to see how you keep that morphing into the laughable 'every manager we hire next will fail' argument. I mean really......

.

This is what it boils down to where I disagree with you. You keep stating it's Woodward's fault we have these holes all based on this summer's inactivity (I will state why I think). From what all of us fans know, Woodward backed LVG for 2 straight seasons and backed Mourinho for 2 straight seasons. It was only until this summer that he didn't properly back him as Woodward supposedly wanted younger players and this led to only getting Fred, Grant, and Dalot.

That's incredibly flimsy evidence to prove your point. Due to this flimsy evidence you think the next manager is doomed to fail because he won't be properly backed. It's the manager's fault for failing to correct these holes. Why did he wait until this summer to get a RB? Why did he go after Matic which ultimately has prolonged our midfield issue? Why didn't he get a more experience CB as soon as he came into the job? Clearly Woodward had no problem getting older experienced players then.

And nobody has said the next manager will automatically sort out United. All we're saying is that based on the current evidence there is no reason to stick with a failing manager in Mourinho. I already said that the next manager will likely fail if Woodward doesn't take the proper steps to rectify his failings. Those failings being the lack of vision for the side to provide consistency in targets, and being slow to sack managers which leads us to a smaller choice of managers to pick from. The former is the biggest problem.

None of what you stated proves the next manager will fail though. It's that manager's responsibility to find flaws in the side to correct and so long as his transfer targets fit the club's vision, Woodward should back him (which he has up until this summer). I have no reason to believe Woodward won't back the next manager unless said manager does not fix entire portions of the side after 2 expensive summers. This is what you and Gary continue to get wrong. The likely hood of the manager failing is high so you want to persist with the current manager that is doomed to fail.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Well his argument is blown out the water in the fact that our play has already massively changed from LVG to Jose. LVG was a possession based manager, Jose is not. He gladly will concede possession and attempt a counter attack or long back to catch the opposition out. LVG retained possession religiously and wanted attacks in only the most certain of circumstances.

Another person who doesn't bother to read what he replies to and what he thinks his rebutting.

Are you seriously attempting to preach to me how United's playing style and footballing direction has changed? When Im the one who mentioned it has changed directions three times? And that the in spite of the changes there has been no consistent success on the pitch due to other under lying problems at United that must be addressed before another manager bringing another style change is recruited?

How you can attempt to say it wouldn't there for change again with an attack minded manager is bizarre. Of course it would change, all new managers bring fresh ideas and they will turn out either to be good or bad for the team / club.

WTF? Did you actually BOTHER to read what I posted?

At what point did I ever say 'our style wouldn't change'? When did arguing that we were unlikely to witness a successful implementation of traditional United football if we hired yet another manager with a philosophical and playing style difference, due to the existing underlying problems undressed at United since SAF retired = 'Our style wont change at all'

Again, this argument is more than a bit silly when its up to the manager how his team is built, you can't seriously be suggesting all our players are there cause of Woodwards decisions?

Every player the managers have been ABLE to recruit is at United since Fergie left are strictly at United because Woodward willed it. I dare you to dispute it without refuting yourself. Because I'm certain none of our 3 recent managers has ever signed a player themselves.....

If you are then there really is no reasoning to be had here. Fergie never received every single player he wanted, see Batistuta as an example, we ended up with Dwight Yorke instead.

First, Are you SERIOUSLY trying to compare Fergie's situation, who had been years in the job, who had built a balanced team, with a set playing style and philosophy for years failing to get one target with United as it is now?

Second, how does Fergie's not being allowed to sign Batistuta due to financial restraints in that era, in anyway refute the fact Woodward is in charge of United's transfer dealings, and no player is signed by United without his express permission and him actually doing a deal for the given player? Please explain

1)If our defence is not good enough (personally believe it could be very good with Dalot, Bailly, Lindelof and Shaw), then its ultimately up to Jose for any number of reasons.

You must be a great optimist to your personal credit! Because you are possibly, literally the only man alive who believes we currently have a good defence. Or that those 4 in experienced lads could suddenly morph into a solid one under a manager not known for molding in experienced players

2) Again is it any wonder our CB's are weak when he publicly slates them, one of our greatest CB's Rio said he wouldn't want to play for Jose after his comments on them

That is your grand rebuttal? That our cbs' like Jones are only shit because Mourinho 'slates them'? Plus Ferdinand's laughable emotional reaction to our lousy cb's rightly being called out on bad performances and not being good enough? Tell me this. Do you seriously imagine a center back as good as Rio Ferdinand at their age would ever be slated by Mourinho? If no, then how is Ferdinand's emotional outburst a rebuttal to anything?

3) If our right flank hasn't been addressed then that too is on Jose.

Does Mourinho control our transfer dealings that it is his fault his desired targets that are affordable due to United's financial might are not signed by United? Yes or No?

If the answer is 'No', how the hell is it his fault he cant get the players he wants?

4) No we don't only have one natural holding MF, Jose just plays his favourite one, religiously regardless of form. Oh and he has Scott McTominay and Periera to play there but more damning is he decided to sell of our best passing defensive midfielder in the summer, which you conveniently ignore as well... Daley Blind!

Firstly, Id like you to list the members of our squad who are all naturally HM's like Matic. Not people who can' do a job' .

Secondly, who has been fit the longest between all our current players able to play that role over our last 12 league games? The answer is only Matic and an aspiring holding player called Pereira. McTominay, Herrera and the inform Fellaini have all spent various spells injured. Herrera being the longest. Matic to was also injured at one point. Thus, Id like you to first explain how playing Matic who was fit over the others who were injured, is favoritism.

Third, Id also like you to then explain, how with results plummeting, it would have been prudent for Mourinho to risk Perreira in the role, with his utter lack of experience in it, when his own job was on the line and he'd literally be forcing a player with zero experience to swim in shark infested waters?

Furthermore, Blind wanted to leave and was sold with the intent to be replaced by a defensive upgrade we badly needed, who Woodward never bothered to recruit. To attempt to drag him into the DM argument, when during his entire stay under Mourinho it was public knowledge he was viewed strictly as a defender, just because you despise Mourinho, is the height of being disingenuous.

Essentially, what I'm saying is Jose has been given 400m in transfer funds and repeatedly broken transfer records in various avenues and still he can't get his players into anything close to resembling a team, its a managers job to work with what resources he has and make do the best with that. He isn't doing that no matter what way you spin it.

Keefy, Its your fault alone you think I need to spin facts. The holes Mourinho found in the squad before he arrived are still here three seasons later due to how our chairman recruits players he is asked to buy. If you are naive enough to think every manager is equipped to make gold from straw, which is the equivalent of producing traditional United football accompanied by the on pitch success, whilst United still has terminal squad holes, no clear football direction at the top nor non haphazard recruiting strategy and that is your problem alone.

He could easily promote from within and bleed in youth, he chooses not to. He doesn't have to have expensive signing after another to address Fullbacks, CB's, RW or DMF. /Quote]
Name these youth players who would adequately fill up those squad holes that Jose has over looked. A right and left fullback, 2 center halves, a number 6 , a number 10, competition for Lukaku, and a right winger. Player who are ready to walk straight into our squad and be genuine competition for the current first team members. I dare you

I also double dare you to list cheap players Mourinho overlooked of the requisite quality in the market, if you cant' find a list from the youth.....

This entire paragraph is factually untrue and I'd request you do some homework on what actually happened.

Bullshit. The only thing in accurate is I posted the name Bailly twice rather than writing Lindeloff

To start with, Jose publicly chased Pogba and demanded him, he wanted Zlatan quite clearly. Bailly was his first signing, he quite clearly wanted Matic as he is still to this day his go to guy and untouchable regardless of the aforementioned form. In short the only player I think you could consider he didn't want was Lukaku as he publicly chased Morata to some degree but Real wouldn't sell to us at the asking price we wanted, so Lukaku followed a week later.

How does this prove that its 'factually in accurate' that Woodward refused to sign Persic in that first window? Or that in the window he added Lindeloff in he STILL refused to purchase Alex Sandro and Perisic? Are you kidding me right now?

My ENTIRE argument in the paragraph was Mourinho did NOT get all the players he asked for that window, nor in any other. players he deemed essential to his process of team shaping, Then you go on to list all the players he ACTUALLY chased and got as a rebuttal? Seriously?

Worse still you seem clearly unaware United chased Mortata and Lukaku at the same time but Lukaku was the top target. If you doubt Lukaku was the top target read this article

https://www.skysports.com/football/...Lukaku-to-man-utd-big-transfer-deal-explained

In the summer just gone, he stated "A Brazilian would arrive" and low and behold, Fred is signed. He publicly demanded Dalot and stated he had to be signed quickly as he was highly sought after and even though injured a deal had to be done, in as many words.

How on Gods green earth is any of that refuting the fact that this summer window Mourinho did NOT get all the targets he asked for? Do you even know what argument you are refuting?

You mention later on in your ramblings about Perisic. We'll get to that shortly and how daft that idea is.

Two final things, Perisic... Why are folks so hung up on this deal? If you actually looked at Perisic form last season he managed to be involved in 22 goals in all competitions over 3317 mins of football.
Martial, who had his worst season for us last year performed better than him, he was involved in 20 goals in 2337 mins.

Really Keffy? Is this lame dog argument your version of
'
[ You mention later on in your ramblings about Perisic. We'll get to that shortly and how daft that idea is.]
Because its ludicrously pathetic.

First, Perisic is an ambidextrous two flank winger. Martial is NOT. You doubt? Read this article:
https://www.goal.com/en-gh/news/per...td-by-former-coach/1olucdaqmyzst1uyimje2d0rhv

Perisic would have helped solved our right sided issue. Martial probably NEVER will. To start bringing Martial into the equation shows you didn't even grasp why Perisic was wanted in the first place, nor the argument I was making.

Second, you want to talk statistics? Fine. JM wanted Persic in his first transfer window in 2016/2017 when Woodward decided against signing him. In all comps that season: Persic finished with 15 goals and 15 assists. Our most used right flankers that season in comparison were Mata (10 goals, 6 assists), Mhkitaryan (12 goals, 5 assists), Lingard (5 goals, 3 assists) and Rashford (12 goals, 4 assists). You are out of your damn mind if you think buying him that season, with what he eventually produced productivity wise was 'a daft idea'. Especially a player who could not only add goals, but the tactical versatility to play as a winger or wing back on either flank too.

The following season 2017/2018 in all comps: Perisic (12 goals, 10 assists), Lingard(15 goals, 9 assists) Rashford (16 goals, 8 assists), Mata (4 goals) 8 assists). 11 of his goals and 9 of his assists came in the Serie A alone! If for arguments sake we had signed him that summer and he had had those exact figures in the EPL. That would have not only added to us 20 league goals, it would probably have yielded us more points, not only getting us closer to City, but making us a more balanced side in attack. So how again was it ' a daft idea' for Mourinho to desire to recruit him yet again before that season and again this summer? Do you seriously believe its 'daft' to want to add a player who could potentially add 20 league goals to our current floundering attack?

So for arguments sake would signing Perisic actually of made that big a difference? Bear in mind, Perisic plays LW and wouldn't of actually addressed the RW issue. He's played his entire career for Inter on the LW.

You are probably the only person alive who is totally unaware Perisic is ambidextrous and can comfortably operate on either flank. A major reason Mourinho found signing him appealing. To attempt to use the fact Inter has only used him on the right side, whilst their player as proof 'he wouldn't of actually addressed the RW issue', when the facts about him are a reality, is a classic case of stuffing your foot in your own mouth due to plain ignorance.

And lets not forget Jose quite clearly wanted rid of Martial this summer gone and the irony is now Martial is keeping Jose in a job! How convenient you ignore this hey?

Why should I pay any attention to something that has zero relevance to my argument? Its an indisputable fact Martial is not a two flank winger and Persic is. Not a 'matter of convenience'......

Finally as for Darmian, feel free to google his quotes about his desired move back to Italy in the summer... he quote publicly and openly admits that Jose wouldn't release him for sale.

You've conveniently left out the fact Mourinho did not want to lose him because he knew he was not going to recruit any more defenders and couldn't afford to lose another.
http://kwese.espn.com/soccer/soccer...Mourinho-eager-to-keep-matteo-Darmian-sources

Again, in a nutshell how in the blue hell is Woody at fault for simply going with his managers wishes 99% of the time?

This made up rubbish again. Woodward has consistently not given Mourinho all he has asked for in terms of recruitment in the transfer market and each summer the percentage of players on the list that he hasn't bought has simply gone up.

The one time he's started to over rule Jose was in the summer as In Rainbows states which is a fact.

No, that is strictly a myth that resides in BOTH your heads

There is no value in signing near 30 year old Toby from Spurs, look at the sharp decline in Sanchez & Matic. If your signing players in that age bracket you can expect short term returns for you buck.

Which is the whole entire aim of signing such players. As successes in that short period they value they will add to the younger players in the squad hoping to make those positions their own long term is always invaluable.

Same goes for Boateng and Godin, well n truly over the hill.

Those two are Galacticos, Precisely the type of signing Woodward never resists and personally chases. Anyone who imagines those 2 were on Mourinho's wish list from April, and were only chased one day to the end of the window, is deluded indeed

Maguire for 75m? You must be having a laugh! Not worth it at all. [

Magyire was NOT 75m at the start of the window. To start singing to us how 'he isn't worth it' after Woodward made no effort to recruit him until after world cup and his price has sky rocketed is laughable. Its his own damn fault his price became prohibitive, not the manager who wanted the player.....

And as for telling Jose where to go for Martial, you know your manager is utterly clueless when an accountant is making better football decisions over players.

Sure. Keeping Jones, Rojo and Darmian and making no effort to sign one of Romagnoli, Skrinar, Aldwerwereld. ad Maguire or Giminez before the world cup were all 'better footballing decisions over players'. Feckin give me a break.
They are as bad as each other. Woodward with his recruitment and Mourinho in valuing younger players like Martial and Pereira for example.......

Remember Martial is keeping Jose in the job at this point really.

Again. How is this relevant to any argument I'm making? Be serious please.......

[QUOTE="Keefy18, post: 23300260, member: 115130"]
All these players and more had no issues with performance pre Jose. [/Quote]

How the feck does that have any relevance to them fixing the list of problems in question? The issue is NOT their performance. Its rather the fact that they alone would NEVER solve all those problems listed. Regardless of who the manager is.

[QUOTE="Keefy18, post: 23300260, member: 115130"]
Pogba was in the World XI when we bought him, Alexis one of the PL best forwards, Mikha voted best player in Germany I believe. I could go on with Martial, voted best young player in the world in his debut season, Rashford the hottest young forward to burst on the scene in
[/Quote]
Again. How does that in any way show that they on their own could solve the issues listed plaguing our team?

[QUOTE="Keefy18, post: 23300260, member: 115130"]
Again, new manager, new ideas and renewed confidence.[/Quote]
Totally missed the point again. As per habit.....

[QUOTE="Keefy18, post: 23300260, member: 115130"]
You seem to think quite obviously Woody runs EVERYTHING at United and Jose is hard done by,...[/Quote]
Rather, I quite obviously KNOW Woodward runs all of United's recruitment. SO I fail to see any good reason why I should blame any manager he employs for who he chooses to buy and reject on a wish list handed to him. You and In Rainbows clearly have serious problems understanding such a simple concept.

[QUOTE="Keefy18, post: 23300260, member: 115130"] I mean, Jose the other week sits there and praises Bonucci being a genius and what not, is he forgetting he feckin sold Bonucci and used him as a make weight in a deal whilst at Inter? [/Quote]
And won Inter's the bloody treble in the process.......Which was his brief at Inter. Not developing youngsters like Bonucci

[QUOTE="Keefy18, post: 23300260, member: 115130"][USER=3700]The manages judgement on a player is woeful. See Salah and KDB for further evidence of Jose transfer genius. [/Quote]
Id rather look at the recruitment over his years at Porto, Chelsea part one, Inter, Real Madrid, Chelsea part 2 and the success they yield even after he left the said clubs to access whether that wanker is a transfer genius or not. Rather than nit picking out 3 instances in which he got it wrong. Like the great SAF himself or Guardiola at City NEVER got transfers wrong......

[QUOTE="Keefy18, post: 23300260, member: 115130"]
You'll no doubt ignore all the facts I've provided re transfer of Blind, Martial and Darmian (as examples) and prattle off again about Evil Woody![/Quote]
Facts?:lol: All you've provided as a rebuttal is largely drivel. Full of you missing the point I was making, attacking positions I haven't even held in addition to displaying plain ignorance like not knowing Perisic can operate on either flank comfortably. Don't flatter yourself....

I for one Im not going through replying to this type of shit again. To hell with Mourinho and to hell with Woodward. I just hope the Glazers have the good sense to appoint a top DOF who will not only permanently remove completely from recruitment and steering the footballing direction of the club, plus having the good sense to get rid of the pointless Mourinho[/user]

 

[JB08]

What the hell is that

 

[pocco]

Only just saw his comments today but I agree with all of what he's said. A lot of it I've said myself, mainly about many of our players never having proven themselves and the ones that have are mainly past their peak. I completely get where he's coming from too when he did he wouldn't even know where to start with fixing this team, that's the most frustrating thing about us right now. There's no quick, clear fix.

 

[Canagel]

Only just saw his comments today but I agree with all of what he's said. A lot of it I've said myself, mainly about many of our players never having proven themselves and the ones that have are mainly past their peak. I completely get where he's coming from too when he did he wouldn't even know where to start with fixing this team, that's the most frustrating thing about us right now. There's no quick, clear fix.

many of City and Liverpool players were unproven too but improved under their respective managements. Something that cannot be said for us.

 

[Mainoldo]

Only just saw his comments today but I agree with all of what he's said. A lot of it I've said myself, mainly about many of our players never having proven themselves and the ones that have are mainly past their peak. I completely get where he's coming from too when he did he wouldn't even know where to start with fixing this team, that's the most frustrating thing about us right now. There's no quick, clear fix.

Many of City players had peaked and was over the hill too. But 3 years down the line they look untouchable and we look....

You can blame structure. But the manager provides this ‘list’ so once again he takes blame.

 

[Keefy18]

@Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber

Oh but there has been varying degrees of success which is what your conveniently ignoring. Wasn't Jose's opening season with 2 trophies deemed a rollicking success, most likely by supporters like yourself cause you feel Jose can do no wrong. Again last season, no doubt deemed an unbridled success for finishing 2nd and our best post Fergie league position, how is it that with a change of manager we can go from being dog turd dirt (apparently under LVG) to a success under Jose? I've no doubt if I could be bothered searching through your near 50K comments that you praised Jose for the above and it being great achievements, you'll deny this no doubt and if so... I shall indeed search through your ramblings.

Your argument is that you can apparently tell the future and we may as well shut the doors of the club cause Jose failed, no one else can possibly succeed. As Rainbows said, how far is your head up Jose's backside really?

You come across as brain washed by Jose who is an incredible manipulator and spews out garbage repeatedly to protect his own CV. One such example being that in his first season he told supporters "United don't chase top 4, they chase trophies", One year on, we are now told that the 2nd place finish is "one of my greatest achievements"... folks like yourself buy into his nonsense hook, line and sinker every time.

Woody signed all these players for the team? That simply isn't the case at all. Jose has quite publicly lauded his desire to sign many of these players before they were signed. He publicly demanded Pogba and stated he was the best midfielder of his kind in the world pre signing. Take any of our signings and he's almost always lauded them pre signing, why ignore this? By Jose's own admissions, publicly he gives Woodward a list of players and in the opening two summers he stated publicly he was very happy with the business done and the only target he hinted at not getting was Perisic.

You are stating matter of fact that Woodward is making these signings without ANY involvement from Jose, then your argument to protect what you've said about Darmian is... Jose wanted to keep him cause of lack of defensive cover? Isn't that Jose deciding on transfers then?

So, which is it... Jose is involved or Woody runs the show? Whopping contradiction Red.

You incredibly state "You KNOW Woody is entirely responsible" for United's transfers... How? Do you work there? How arrogant and conceited can a person be. You don't sit at the board of United so no, you don't. I'm telling you stuff that is public knowledge from quotes from Jose and you ignore this and form your own agenda that Woody is over riding Jose decisions completely, which is completely untrue.

Which brings us back to Perisic.. You state he can play either wing, yes..he can. But he hasn't for Inter and the considering Jose wanted rid of Martial, isn't it painfully bloody obvious Perisic was Martial's replacement? So no, it wouldn't be Adding 20 more goals to the team, it would of been replacing 20 goals approx that Martial is involved in per season with another 20 goal signing in Perisic.

Whatever season you pick, Martial has been the more effective winger. He was involved in goals more consistently per mins than Perisic EVER was. That is a fact and all the other stats you post are blown out the water when this is considered. Jose wanted rid of Martial, Perisic in as his replacement and in turn bringing in a winger with shorter longevity at the club for a kid performing better and more longevity and you support Jose in this?

If were to believe the rumours on this specific instance, I say he got it right and I repeat, its damned worrying an accountant is making sounder judgement of players than our team manager.

Oh and being as were on about the RW and Mikha... Yet another failed Jose Mourinho transfer. Whatever way you spin this Red, Jose has failed. It's a lame excuse to post these long winded boring rants when everything points to the obvious, Jose failing.

Anyway, the Perisic argument is pointless. He stated he didn't want to join United, same as Bonucci. Like many players cause they don't want to play for Jose and his boring brand of defensive hoof ball.

As for Darmian, he didn't want to lose any more defenders so held on to Darmian? Is that what your telling me? The same Jose who dumped Fosu Mensah and Tuanzebe out of the club at the same time. Cries about lack of defenders after shipping out 2 hugely promising talents again on loan. TFM is playing to a good standard for Palace and Fulham most games and Villa absolutely love Tuanzebe and is said to be one of their players of the season currently. Ridiculous argument and yes Darmian stated and his agent as well, Jose was refusing to let him go. Oh and if he needed Darmian sooo badly, why hasn't he played him at all? Doesn't seem to be that badly needed.

Your comment about "ready made youth players" ready to take a place in the team, I believe the above addresses 2 area's Jose and yourself are getting pissy about. It's extremely rare that a youth player will hit the ground running and immediately set the game alight. I mean, how many of the CO92 did this? Even hugely talented players like Beckham, Scholes and Giggs had adjustment periods of course, remember... "You can't win anything with kids".

So many of our fan base like yourself have completely forgotten that a managers job is to coach, Fergie and LVG worked with worse set ups and managed to put their stamp on a team, Klopp beat City with a midfield trio from a variation of Hendo, Widjnaldum, Milner and Ox! Don't give me this nonsense about Jose not being able to do his job with the players he's been provided cause he can, but is archaic in his mindset.

You've a blind loyalty to Jose clearly and its a wasted venture really trying to reason with you clearly. When Jose is gone and IF we sign this new, younger manager who is more in tune with today's game of high pressing attacking football and we return to being a successful side I'll be back with a timely reminder to say... Told you so.

 

[Denis' cuff]

Ffs, can we get to grips with the fact that Jose is the manager. He has no role in buying or selling players, other than saying who he wants and who he doesn’t want. “Jose still has not got rid of Darmian“ ffs Getting rid of Jones, Rojo, Darmian etc is down to finance. Jose does not do that. He has made it clear he does not want Darmian and no doubt several others. It is not his fault that we have failed to shift them to another club on comparable contracts any more than not signing up the Liverpool Echo as a sponsor is his fault. None of us have any idea which players were his choice that we signed. I’d guess some were his choice and some were Woowoo’s choice. Despite players looking decidedly unarsed at times, I think Mou has set us up poorly in some big games. He could’ve done better but blaming the wifi on him is a bit out of order. The club is a shambles from top to bottom at the moment... not Shaw’s fault or even Lukaku’s fault. We need owners who have the clubs welfare at heart - not their profit margin. The rest flows from there, be or philosophy.it managerial appointments or player recruitment

 

[Keefy18]

Ffs, can we get to grips with the fact that Jose is the manager. He has no role in buying or selling players, other than saying who he wants and who he doesn’t want. “Jose still has not got rid of Darmian“ ffs Getting rid of Jones, Rojo, Darmian etc is down to finance. Jose does not do that. He has made it clear he does not want Darmian and no doubt several others. It is not his fault that we have failed to shift them to another club on comparable contracts any more than not signing up the Liverpool Echo as a sponsor is his fault. None of us have any idea which players were his choice that we signed. I’d guess some were his choice and some were Woowoo’s choice. Despite players looking decidedly unarsed at times, I think Mou has set us up poorly in some big games. He could’ve done better but blaming the wifi on him is a bit out of order. The club is a shambles from top to bottom at the moment... not Shaw’s fault or even Lukaku’s fault. We need owners who have the clubs welfare at heart - not their profit margin. The rest flows from there, be or philosophy.it managerial appointments or player recruitment

No it's not simply down to Finance, as mentioned above by both Red Indian and myself Jose kept hold of Darmian. That's at least something we've agreed upon. You even mention it yourself the sentence prior, stating who he wants and doesn't want.

Jose has made a total of 59 transfers over 5 transfer windows since joining United (arrivals and departures), rough count admittedly.
LVG made a total of 65 transfers over 4 transfer windows (arrivals and departures)

How is it that LVG can come into United and swing his axe and cut players left, right and centre (and he got serious heat over some of them, RVP, Rafael and Hernandez in particular), but Jose can't and suddenly out come defences of Jose and Woody being at fault and strangling his hold over the team he manages?

The board didn't stand in LVG's way of transfer dealings regardless of age, wage or form. They didn't stand in Moyes way of signing Fellaini nor did they stand in the way of Jose resigning Fellaini in the summer.

Our wage bill has doubled under Jose, why? Cause he's hanging onto deadwood and handing out new deals to players that he doesn't even use or see as integral parts of his team. Jones, Rojo, Herrera are some names that come to mind and now he's looking at giving new deals again to Herrera, Mata and our ageing fullbacks Young and Valencia and in turn the wage bill is hurting our chances of signing new players. Our wage bill is approx 60m more than that of City's. He doesn't know what he wants for his team, our performances swing wildly from half to half, never mind game to game.

Even his transfer decisions at Chelsea left a lot to be desired in his 2nd stint. He let go of Lukaku twice and opted for an ageing Drogba over him in one of those instances. Bought Salah, loaned him out. KDB loaned out. There's examples over those 2 and a bit years that back up the notion that he's lost his eye in judging talent.

Finance simply decide upon, the financials. The who stays / goes is by an large down to the manager for the vast majority. Lets not forget it was Jose who strong armed Woodward into keeping Fellaini? He publicly stated that he had to have Fellaini, he was vital to his plans going forward. He absolutely loves everything about Fellaini. Jose made such a strong case for Fellaini getting a new contract, Fellaini was able to run his mouth off in an interview and stated Jose made it impossible for the board to say no to a new contract for him.

What option had Woodward in that situation but to give him a new deal and sign off on an increase? If he lets him go he's not backing Jose, backs him and were stuck with an average squad player at best on increased wages and hurts our chances of having a new player coming.

The fallout came because Jose by an large favours more senior players over youth and Woody has delivered quite a few players in that mould, Zlatan? Matic? Sanchez? If were to believe Jose's other targets like Willian, Perisic & Alderweirald, two of that 3 were strongly linked during the summer. Now put yourself in Woodwards shoes, Zlatan was a short term answer on huge wages, Sanchez was woeful from Jan to May and on a Premier League record setting wage and Matic was hit and miss last season and went into hibernation over winter....Is that value for money and a risk worth taking on 2-3 more ageing players whilst off loading Martial and Jose falling out with Pogba in the background?

Truth is Jose hasn't a clue it seems what he wants from the team, he was the supporters choice and many supporters are clinging onto something that simply isn't working out for Jose. They want Jose to work out so badly they simply can't let go and rather blame another person.

The mess started with Gill if were going to the root cause of the problem, you know the guy who panicked and quit the same day his Golden Ticket (Fergie) had expired. He put no plan in place for a successor what so ever which his job was to do that. How did he help the transition from Fergie to a successor? He didn't.