General discussion thread

[Šjor Bepo]

It's hard to say because there isn't a big pool of centre-backs who have either played super high or who played under the modern offside rule. Pre-Sacchi most teams weren't particularly compact, unless they sat deep. The only exceptions off the top of my head would be Hansen's Liverpool, and maybe Kyiv and Holland. So that rules out a lot of great defenders from the debate. I think the change to the offside rule between passive and active players came into force around '94 (the Bebeto/Romario goal against Holland at the WC being the first high profile example) so Baresi would have been exposed to some of that at the end of his career. Post-94 none of the great Italian defences positioned themselves that high, so that again rules out a few contenders. Stam and De Boer were probably the most noticeable exponents towards the end of the 90s. It's not really until Pep came along that more elite teams defended regularly on the half-way line. That throws Pique, Puyol, Boateng, Ramos, Silva and Varane into the conversation, and Van Dijk certainly stands at the top of that group.

Those are the only guys who were really proven and performed in high-line game scenarios. But equally I think the greatest defenders who weren't as proven in such a system, but still stood out for their genius in reading the game and for defending the space in behind, could do a great job too. I reckon Moore, Figueroa, Beckenbauer and Passarella would have all had the nous and proactive instincts to pull it off.

yeah its a bit of a niche category but an interesting one as i reckon this is gonna be a standard system for top teams from now on....
Im sure we could find more high line teams, Marseille of the 90s often played it with Mozer and Boli in defence. Hajduk played it in late 70s under Ivic and so on but yeah, the most interesting one is Baresi as a direct comparison.

Its not even active/passive thing that is an issue, its often only active players in the incident and they are getting it shockingly wrong. As a defender you only needed to start moving up and they would call it, often the active player would be 1-3 metres onside. Its insane to even see it in isolation let alone with the current VAR calls in todays game.

Yeah id probably give all of those 4 the benefit of the doubt in the high line but you cant compare them to someone that actually done it.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

It brings a tear to my eye to admit it, but i don't think i would trust Onopko in a high line. The mind would be willing, but the body too slow and lacking agility.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

So, i was bored with some time on my hands earlier, and decided to do some comparing of the competitiveness of leagues at the top end of european football tournaments over the last five decades. Not an extensive or super rigorous study by any means, but just a quick noting of how many times each league put a team in the semi-final of each competition per decade.

Some findings...

For the '70s and '80s, 16 different leagues managed to put teams into the European Cup semi-finals. 14 for the '90s. This drops right down to 7 for the '00s, then again to 6 for '10s.

Looking at variety of generally smaller leagues/countries that had managed to get only 1 or 2 teams to this stage...for the '70s you have 11 different leagues, the '80s had 10, the '90s had 9. Then we get to the '00s where we get a drop down to 3, however Germany the next best rated country only have 3, leaving the entirety of the rest of the decade an English, Spanish and Italian affair at the semi-final level. The '10s has only one country in this 1-2 team per decade category...Netherlands, and the next ranked countries France and Italy have only 3 over the decade, leaving things mostly a Spanish, English and German scene.

Uefa/Europa had retained more variety. 12 different leagues for the '70s. 16 for the '80s. 12 for the '90s. 11 for '00s. 11 for '10s

One unusual drop that i noticed among the leagues generally in the top 4-5 for every decade number of overall semi-finalists was Germany during the '10s Europa League. For the '70s/'80s they had comfortably the most teams in the uefa cup, with 12 and 11, then 6 for the '90s (joint second highest) and 8 for '00s (second)...however for the '10s they managed a single semi-finalist over the entire decade.

Top Five for each decade, with honourable mention:

'70s.
1.West Germany = 24
2.England = 17
3.Spain = 13
4.Netherlands = 12
5. Italy = 10
HM:Belgium = 7

'80s
1.West Germany = 17
2.Italy = 16
3.Spain = 14
4.Belgium = 11
5.England = 10 (banned for second half of the decade)
HM: Romania, France, Portugal = 6

'90s
1.Italy = 29
2.Spain = 17
3.France = 16
4.Germany = 14
5.England = 11
HM: Netherlands = 6

'00s
1.England = 20 (most European Cup semi finalists as tiebreaker)
2.Spain = 20
3.Italy = 12
4.Germany = 11
5.Portugal = 4
HM: France, Netherlands = 3

'10s
1.Spain = 29
2.England = 14
3.Germany = 11
4. Italy = 7
5. Portugal = 6
HM: France = 5

 

[Gio]

Its not even active/passive thing that is an issue, its often only active players in the incident and they are getting it shockingly wrong. As a defender you only needed to start moving up and they would call it, often the active player would be 1-3 metres onside. Its insane to even see it in isolation let alone with the current VAR calls in todays game.

Don’t know what you’re talking about mate.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Question - Would you ever put a modern footballer in the all time greats bracket if they have not done anything significant for their country and have never won the Champions League?

Case in point - the City diaspora, likes of De Bruyne, David Silva etc

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Question - Would you ever put a modern footballer in the all time greats bracket if they have not done anything significant for their country and have never won the Champions League?

Case in point - the City diaspora, likes of De Bruyne, David Silva etc

so that applies only to a modern player? great logic

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

so that applies only to a modern player? great logic

I say modern because not all the South American oldies played in the Champions League but its hard to imagine any modern goat candidates not playing in Europe. But continue being the condescending idiot you are.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I say modern because not all the South American oldies played in the Champions League but its hard to imagine any modern goat candidates not playing in Europe. But continue being the condescending idiot you are.

Okay, lets take it serious then,

Assuming judging players based on team success is okay which obviously isnt but lets play the game.

Lets just focus on oldies as we already know the criterias for modern player.

The ones that spent majority of their career in europe, we gonna judge them the same way with CL and winning something for their country(feck, for Silva even that isnt enough)?

For SA we surely then use Copa Libertadores as the substitute for Champions League?

You cant look modern players through microscope and in same way just wave a free pass for the oldies.

 

[Gio]

Question - Would you ever put a modern footballer in the all time greats bracket if they have not done anything significant for their country and have never won the Champions League?

Case in point - the City diaspora, likes of De Bruyne, David Silva etc

It depends how black-and-white we interpret their achievements.

For example, David Silva has 125 caps for Spain during their greatest era, winning an unprecedented 3 consecutive major international tournaments.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

It depends how black-and-white we interpret their achievements.

For example, David Silva has 125 caps for Spain during their greatest era, winning an unprecedented 3 consecutive major international tournaments.

Not only that, he was one of the standout players in one Euro.....

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

You cant look modern players through microscope and in same way just wave a free pass for the oldies.

Any conversation with you about modern players ends up with whataboutism with oldies mate. I am not big upping the oldies or even mentioning them, their goat status are already either defined or not defined in the general perception - you or I or anyone cant change that. I am just trying to find a barometer to define the goat status for the modern players as the GOATs are not yet a definitive list and wont be for quite a few years depending on how their legacy ages a decade after they retire.

For example, David Silva has 125 caps for Spain during their greatest era, winning an unprecedented 3 consecutive major international tournaments.

Silva might not have been a good example. I was thinking more of De Bruyne during his last performance. Bland for Belgium and no UCL.

Say Kaka and De Bruyne. It wouldnt' be unfair to Kaka if De Bruyne is considered a better player but Kaka's UCL heroics ending in a winners medal makes it difficult for me to move De Bruyne ahead of him.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Any conversation with you about modern players ends up with whataboutism with oldies mate. I am not big upping the oldies or even mentioning them, their goat status are already either defined or not defined in the general perception - you or I or anyone cant change that. I am just trying to find a barometer to define the goat status for the modern players as the GOATs are not yet a definitive list and wont be for quite a few years depending on how their legacy ages a decade after they retire.

of course it does because two groups are not on the same playing field and injustice annoys me no matter how irrelevant the topic is.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

of course it does because two groups are not on the same playing field and injustice annoys me no matter how irrelevant the topic is.

Alright mate, I was just looking into the modern lot and there are enough retired greats from the last couple of decades that can be used for comparison rather than the oldies. (Zidane/Kaka/De Bruyne).

 

[Gio]

Silva might not have been a good example. I was thinking more of De Bruyne during his last performance. Bland for Belgium and no UCL.

Say Kaka and De Bruyne. It wouldnt' be unfair to Kaka if De Bruyne is considered a better player but Kaka's UCL heroics ending in a winners medal makes it difficult for me to move De Bruyne ahead of him.

In De Bruyne's defence, he's had some great performances as well at the business end of competitions, but I think his problem is when he has had a quiet game, it has been compounded by issues elsewhere. For Belgium I don't think he's had the luxury of being able to have a quiet game and for his team still to progress. In 1998 Zidane could be fairly quiet until the final, and then in 2000 had a quiet final (after an incredible tournament), but he still came away with two winners' medals for both tournaments. De Bruyne and Hazard were excellent against Brazil in the 2018 quarter final, quiet in the semi-final and they were out. At Euro 2020 he came in injured, rescued Begium with a ridiculous performance against Denmark, had another good showing in his next game, and then run out of steam (owing to the lack of match fitness due to injury) against Italy. For City he's had loads of sparkling performances in the Champions League. Their exits have mostly come down to shabby defending or weird tactics (eg no DM in the 21 CL final, or the back 3 against Lyon in the 20 CL semi).

All of that said I agree that it's a factor and it's probably what separates De Bruyne from, for instance, a Breitner or Zidane whose track records on the absolute biggest stage are more impressive. Breitner probably a better comparison actually in style. I'm not sure about Kaka, I'd probably put KDB ahead based on his overall contribution over a longer time period, while acknowledging that Kaka has done more in deciding major CL ties.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

In De Bruyne's defence, he's had some great performances as well at the business end of competitions, but I think his problem is when he has had a quiet game, it has been compounded by issues elsewhere. For Belgium I don't think he's had the luxury of being able to have a quiet game and for his team still to progress. In 1998 Zidane could be fairly quiet until the final, and then in 2000 had a quiet final (after an incredible tournament), but he still came away with two winners' medals for both tournaments. De Bruyne and Hazard were excellent against Brazil in the 2018 quarter final, quiet in the semi-final and they were out. At Euro 2020 he came in injured, rescued Begium with a ridiculous performance against Denmark, had another good showing in his next game, and then run out of steam (owing to the lack of match fitness due to injury) against Italy. For City he's had loads of sparkling performances in the Champions League. Their exits have mostly come down to shabby defending or weird tactics (eg no DM in the 21 CL final, or the back 3 against Lyon in the 20 CL semi).

All of that said I agree that it's a factor and it's probably what separates De Bruyne from, for instance, a Breitner or Zidane whose track records on the absolute biggest stage are more impressive. Breitner probably a better comparison actually in style. I'm not sure about Kaka, I'd probably put KDB ahead based on his overall contribution over a longer time period, while acknowledging that Kaka has done more in deciding major CL ties.

That is a fair take. As much as I hate it to happen, no better modern player to deserve one of the big trophies.

 

[General_Elegancia]

In one or two years, I probably think we will pick Darwin Nunez and Haaland in future draft-games.

mark my words

 

[harms]

Haaland wouldn’t surprise me (we do pick Mbappé even though he’s an easier fit tactically), but I doubt that we’ll be picking Nunez any time soon.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Haaland wouldn’t surprise me (we do pick Mbappé even though he’s an easier fit tactically), but I doubt that we’ll be picking Nunez any time soon.

Aye, I like pitching modern players into the fold but Nunez looks a real long shot at the minute. Someone like Radamel Falcao, for instance, never gets a look in, and Nunez will do well to match his peak.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Haaland wouldn’t surprise me (we do pick Mbappé even though he’s an easier fit tactically), but I doubt that we’ll be picking Nunez any time soon.

we pick Mbappe because his peak is very long, even longer then actually needed for drafts....same cant be said for Haaland, as of today of course

 

[harms]

we pick Mbappe because his peak is very long, even longer then actually needed for drafts....same cant be said for Haaland, as of today of course

Well, he's a couple of years younger — if he keeps banging them in for another 2 years at roughly 1 goal per game (and that's his usual rate for weaker teams), winning some serious silverware...

I'm not saying that we should pick him now — he's at best the 3rd best striker in the world at the moment, so historically he's even further down the line.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Well, he's a couple of years younger — if he keeps banging them in for another 2 years at roughly 1 goal per game (and that's his usual rate for weaker teams), winning some serious silverware...

I'm not saying that we should pick him now — he's at best the 3rd best striker in the world at the moment, so historically he's even further down the line.

of course, can see him being picked if he kills at City in next 2 years, though as you said - those modern n9 strikers dont really get much love, just look at Benz and Lewa

 

[General_Elegancia]

Aye, I like pitching modern players into the fold but Nunez looks a real long shot at the minute. Someone like Radamel Falcao, for instance, never gets a look in, and Nunez will do well to match his peak.

Maybe if he performs superbly for 3-4 consecutive years( I hope so), he will be picked by ours .Right now, yes, a hell of long way for Nunez.

 

[Gio]

All-time striker pool is so deep yet we are usually only picking a maximum of perhaps 15-20 in any draft. Without big restrictions a lot of these guys, especially those still writing their stories, just won’t get a look in.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Was watching a bit of Zidane today and was wondering if there ever was any player who used their chest as well as he did. Any names come to mind?

 

[General_Elegancia]

Was watching a bit of Zidane today and was wondering if there ever was any player who used their chest as well as he did. Any names come to mind?

Maybe not as excellent as Zidane but still has an excellent chest control- Luis Alberto Suarez( one of my favorite player)

Spoiler: Suarez's chest control

Maradona from I’ve seen also had great chest control( probably could compare to Zidane). In fact, he was master at any kind of skills.

Spoiler: Maradona

Ibrahimovic is another person that's great in this skill

Spoiler: Ibrahimovic

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/yAKiD7KNepk

Bergkamp is so amazing in chest control too.

Other players like Messi, Ronaldo( both) and Romario come to my mind too.

Spoiler: Messi

Spoiler: Ronaldo

Imho, Ronaldinho also performed beautiful chest-control.

Spoiler: Ronaldinho

 

[harms]

Was watching a bit of Zidane today and was wondering if there ever was any player who used their chest as well as he did. Any names come to mind?

Falcão, Pelé, Ronaldinho and a bunch of other Brazilians — it’s a very Joga bonito skill to have.

Zidane is certainly at the very top of that list though.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

@General_Elegancia Suarez and Bergkamp are great shouts mate.

Falcão, Pelé, Ronaldinho and a bunch of other Brazilians — it’s a very Joga bonito skill to have.

Zidane is certainly at the very top of that list though.

Pele and Dinho did come to mind but Falcao is an interesting choice. Will checkout some compilations.

 

[harms]

@General_Elegancia Suarez and Bergkamp are great shouts mate.



Pele and Dinho did come to mind but Falcao is an interesting choice. Will checkout some compilations.

There’s a whole segment right at the beginning (maybe one minute in and further forward). He really loved to use his chest when controlling a long ball coming from a keeper/center back.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

There’s a whole segment right at the beginning (maybe one minute in and further forward). He really loved to use his chest when controlling a long ball coming from a keeper/center back.

Damn, that is brilliant. Probably most physical strikers do it really well, but something way more satisfying about a midfielder using his chest with ease in the middle of the pitch like Zidane and evidently Falcao did.

 

[harms]

Damn, that is brilliant. Probably most physical strikers do it really well, but something way more satisfying about a midfielder using his chest with ease in the middle of the pitch like Zidane and evidently Falcao did.

Yeah. It gives you so much freedom in terms of the following action — you can literally move the ball to any direction with either foot. It doesn't matter how good you are with the ball at your feet, a first touch with your foot still limits you a bit in terms of options.

 

[General_Elegancia]

Learning from the master ( perfect ball-control)
The real god of "Sombrero"

 

[Physiocrat]

Everyone is forgetting the GOAT of chest control- Fellaini.

 

[2mufc0]

Was watching a bit of Zidane today and was wondering if there ever was any player who used their chest as well as he did. Any names come to mind?

Fellaini - not joking either.

 

[2mufc0]

Everyone is forgetting the GOAT of chest control- Fellaini.

Ah missed this post.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Everyone is forgetting the GOAT of chest control- Fellaini.

Fellaini - not joking either.

Should have made it clear capable of playing with feet was a criteria as well

 

[harms]

Fellaini's chest control is overrated due to him being a bit shit at pretty much everything else. Not nearly enough finesse to be featured next to the true greats.

 

[General_Elegancia]

Felliani’s huge body structure helps him a lot in shielding the ball and chest control, I would say he has a great chest control too but his finesse and technique don’t belong to elite-level( still great).

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Is there any one in here who has watched the 1993-94 Serie A season in the real time?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993–94_Serie_A

I know most would already be aware of this that the champions Milan only scored 36 goals in the season (for perspective, the 4 relegated teams scored 35, 35, 32 and 28 goals) but would love to hear about that team from someone who has watched at least a few games back then.

Not sure who to tag, apart from @antohan who I have seen write about watching some games from that era. Feel free to tag if you think someone else might have.

 

[antohan]

Is there any one in here who has watched the 1993-94 Serie A season in the real time?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993–94_Serie_A

I know most would already be aware of this that the champions Milan only scored 36 goals in the season (for perspective, the 4 relegated teams scored 35, 35, 32 and 28 goals) but would love to hear about that team from someone who has watched at least a few games back then.

Not sure who to tag, apart from @antohan who I have seen write about watching some games from that era. Feel free to tag if you think someone else might have.

To be honest, I rarely watched AC Milan except if they were up against Juve/Inter/Lazio/Sampdoria.

They were no longer the Dutch trio Milan. What remained was that fabulous backline which served up the exact same "art of defending" show at the 1994 World Cup.

Pretty sure that was the last season with two points for a win. Not that it really mattered because it's not like they drew more but just didn't concede so won games more often than their rivals anyway.

The CL final that year is a complete outlier. They weren't playing anywhere near that standard, it was a mix of Cruyff cocking it up with no Laudrup and Capello doing the opposite and taking a risk with Savicevic, who decided to show up and piss all over them. Barca were knackered, Milan well rested, but it was yet another example of how the WC panned out: no Baresi, no problem, still impenetrable.

Their ability to keep clean sheets was just fecking insane.