Yeah, he looks a bit Lahm-on-the-left like when he wins the ball and often turning inwards for being right-footed.
Last edited:
General discussion thread
- Thread starter Synco
- Start date
Well, took me a while to be convinced as well, but I finally did gave in after watching the 1958 games looking just at him and of course the short bits on youtube.
Maybe one of @harms or @Šjor Bepo can make an all touches compilation of one of the games if it interests them
Aye
Last edited:
Possibly although it was clear that Yaya could never play B2B properly despite being a good DM and AM. One question would be whether he had the stamina to be an attacking LB. You have to run way more than just as a winger.
There are a few of Nilton's all-touch compilations on YouTube already, by OGB. I swear I saw the one against Sweden but it seems that my mind is playing tricks on me. I don't remember him being a clear stand out in any of the 1962 games that I've seen, so I'm not sure which one to pick. He's definitely an interesting one.
That makes sense, although I also think that stamina is subject to the historical level of fitness regime & basic playing conditions. Would be interesting to know if there was a notable difference from early/mid-50s (Nilton still in his physical prime) to, say, early/mid-60s (Facchetti, Schnellinger) in that regard. Looking at game footage from both eras, I suppose so.
Btw do you know much about Heinz Flohe? He looked a good player from that vid compilation on the previous page
Only that he was more involved in Germany's NT in the 70s than it is generally known. The video above is about as much as I know in terms of in-game footage. Looks really nice.
Edit: I actually must have seen a number of full games featuring him, but I can't really remember him as a player there.
I agree with that. But when we're talking about how comfortable they were on the ball, Nilton is clearly way ahead of pretty much every one of his contemporaries. His first touch, ball-control and dribbling (or, rather, a ball-retaining ability) was absolutely sublime and it was something that you'd usually expected from a cultured midfielder a la Pirlo or Scholes. Of course he had made some forward dribbling runs, like his famous Austria goal, but it looks like it was more of an exception to the rule.
I think Nilton would've been perfect as an Abidal replacement for Pep's Barcelona, if we're trying to find him a place in today's game. He'd be quite comfortable in any extremely high line when a defender (usually a center back that pulls out wide though) plays basically in the area where in the past you'd find midfielders — and his ball-playing ability would be enough to sustain any pressing from the opposition and to pass it forward accurately.
That's where I'd have to disagree with you. I'd say that out of the three he was the most natural "baller". His skills, however, weren't perfectly suited to a classic attacking fullback role (be it an overlapper or an inside runner, with Facchetti being a perfect example of combining both) — and even Djalma was more direct in his runs and use of the ball. We have to remember that we're only seeing an old version of Nilton though, so maybe he was all that when he was younger (Djalma wasn't that much younger, but even 4 years makes a big difference here, when their careers literally happened on the verge of the TV era).
It's not foolproof, but his leg muscles were insane and probably the biggest that I've seen from a players from that era. Djalma had quite skinny legs in comparison (although the volume of muscles doesn't equal stamina). So at his peak he should've been some player — I mean, the discrepancy between his thighs and those of an average footballer looks like that of Zanetti's vs the ones of a regular footballer from the 00s. What an insightful and totally scientific argument
No doubt. That is why I give him the benefit of the doubt in that regard.. his peak is something which I can't pass judgement on. I just think his performances in 58/62 get overrated from an attacking perspective (not his fault he's mid thirties by this stage and even then you can tell he is an exceptional talent and unique). His career goals record seems to highlight however that he was a defender first and foremost - even Djalma had twice the amount of goals yet Djalma's seen as the more defensive one out of the pair.
Therefore it isn't me arguing he isn't a great player, of course he is.. I just think we need to discuss him in a way which actually describes his strengths and weaknesses relative to the version we're accustomed to seeing. He was ahead of his time in terms of his contribution in build up play, not just a defender but a defender with brazillian flair albeit not the most silkiest ball carrier hence I disagree about him being a good fit in CM (the post 54 version), he isn't agile enough in tight spaces to consistently manipulate the ball under pressure.. whereas Djalma is more nimble albeit lacks the range of skill that Nilton does. Bit like a Rashford v Martial type technical comparison i.e. one is more stiff but more variety in dribbles and other is more limited skillwise but natural in changing direction. Nilton needs space to thrive with his rangy legs.
I don't see him as fitting into a modern Pep side, younger version maybe but from the footage we do have I think he would be a good Ivanovicesque with knobs on full back for a peak Mourinho team in the modern era. Someone who could pull off the odd counter, physically powerful as highlighted by your picture, long strides, strong in the air and great character who is wily with the ball at his feet.
It's not foolproof, but his leg muscles were insane and probably the biggest that I've seen from a players from that era. Djalma had quite skinny legs in comparison (although the volume of muscles doesn't equal stamina). So at his peak he should've been some player — I mean, the discrepancy between his thighs and those of an average footballer looks like that of Zanetti's vs the ones of a regular footballer from the 00s. What an insightful and totally scientific argument
@Moby This is one for youPerfect timing.
A few Nilton snippets I found on the topic of tactical restrictions.
A quote (possibly from 2010), from his wiki page:
More can probably be learned from his autobiography, naturally published in Portuguese:
https://www.gryphus.com.br/index.php/biografia/product/481-minha-bola-minha-vida-2-edicao
A quote (possibly from 2010), from his wiki page:
... a story about his goal vs Austria (the final two scenes of the compilation posted above); again wiki, but it can be found in many articles:
... and another quote I found in a German article (my translation):
(Note: as @Raees has mentioned, Djalma had a somewhat better career scoring record; 0,024 vs 0,017 gpg)
More can probably be learned from his autobiography, naturally published in Portuguese:
https://www.gryphus.com.br/index.php/biografia/product/481-minha-bola-minha-vida-2-edicao
Last edited:
Nice Veron compilation. What is annoying is that it doesn't show a pass that is possibly one of the best I think I remember seeing. In the CL he volleyed a pass from the left-back position to Gary Neville in the right-wing position approaching the penalty area line. Have I made this up or do others remember it?
Given the football season is over and feck knows when will continue shall we replace it with some sort of a book club?
Mske a list of the members and each week one will pick a game on footballia that we will watch.
Mske a list of the members and each week one will pick a game on footballia that we will watch.
Great idea, I'm in.
Join the book club!
Last edited:
Sounds interesting.
Gloriously nerdy! I'm in.
Sounds great.. I’m in
I was listening to the podcast episode on strong teams that didn't win European Cup and during the Dynamo Kyiv part it reminded me of this guy...Viktor Leonenko.
The highlight doesn't particularly do him justice and is hardly the best put together you'll find, it's more just a glimpse at the player and missing most of his goals but i couldn't find anything better. He was a Russian 10/supporting forward that first showed his potential as a young player briefly at Dinamo Moscow during the last Soviet season, then fled the team at the start of the first independent Russian one to fulfill a dream of playing for Kyiv, which got him disqualified for a time. He became the star of the team and early Ukrainian league during the early-mid '90s , playing alongside Rebrov. Scoring 24 in 36, 17 in 26 and 20 in 29, with 8 in 12 in Europe, winning player of the year three times back to back. His passing, vision and dribbling skills were excellent and was a prolific scorer for the position too. Aesthetically he could be quite similar to Savicevic.
Unfortunately like a lot of ex-Soviet players of that specific time that found themselves suddenly in different, much less strict environments he gained a reputation as a drinker, difficult character and seriously lacking dedication in training. An attitude it seems the managers in those years (other than Szabo for a year) didn't do a lot to change in various players as long as they were decent on the pitch. He had a poor relationship with Szabo who started to freeze him out of the team in the 95-96 season for supposed worsening fitness/attitude reasons and then when Lobanovsky returned to restore a more professional environment and made the team more competitive in EUrope during the 96/97 his fate was predictably sealed. Relegated to the bench, then feeder teams until 2000, afterward he quickly retired.
He claims he did everything Szabo and then Lobanovsky told him to do to return to the team in terms of fitness and hitting scoring/assist totals in training and that they basically ruined his career not letting him leave the club until physical issues started. I'm not too convinced by him though at least on the fitness side of things. It's sad as he was an excellent talent that with a better attitude would have had a good chance to become a greater player and perhaps been the missing part to push the late 90s Kyiv and Ukraine(who he chose to represent) team a step or two further and/or have success abroad like Sheva.
After football he spends a lot of time as a controversial pundit and looking more and more like Tony Soprano every year.
The highlight doesn't particularly do him justice and is hardly the best put together you'll find, it's more just a glimpse at the player and missing most of his goals but i couldn't find anything better. He was a Russian 10/supporting forward that first showed his potential as a young player briefly at Dinamo Moscow during the last Soviet season, then fled the team at the start of the first independent Russian one to fulfill a dream of playing for Kyiv, which got him disqualified for a time. He became the star of the team and early Ukrainian league during the early-mid '90s , playing alongside Rebrov. Scoring 24 in 36, 17 in 26 and 20 in 29, with 8 in 12 in Europe, winning player of the year three times back to back. His passing, vision and dribbling skills were excellent and was a prolific scorer for the position too. Aesthetically he could be quite similar to Savicevic.
Unfortunately like a lot of ex-Soviet players of that specific time that found themselves suddenly in different, much less strict environments he gained a reputation as a drinker, difficult character and seriously lacking dedication in training. An attitude it seems the managers in those years (other than Szabo for a year) didn't do a lot to change in various players as long as they were decent on the pitch. He had a poor relationship with Szabo who started to freeze him out of the team in the 95-96 season for supposed worsening fitness/attitude reasons and then when Lobanovsky returned to restore a more professional environment and made the team more competitive in EUrope during the 96/97 his fate was predictably sealed. Relegated to the bench, then feeder teams until 2000, afterward he quickly retired.
He claims he did everything Szabo and then Lobanovsky told him to do to return to the team in terms of fitness and hitting scoring/assist totals in training and that they basically ruined his career not letting him leave the club until physical issues started. I'm not too convinced by him though at least on the fitness side of things. It's sad as he was an excellent talent that with a better attitude would have had a good chance to become a greater player and perhaps been the missing part to push the late 90s Kyiv and Ukraine(who he chose to represent) team a step or two further and/or have success abroad like Sheva.
After football he spends a lot of time as a controversial pundit and looking more and more like Tony Soprano every year.
Nice post as usual 
+1Nice post as usual
no clue who the player is but enjoyed the post.
Can't help there either, but Rene Maric (who is Austrian) wrote a profile based on lots of research & the film material he could get hold of. He says the margin of error is naturally quite large, but at the same time he's confident there's some truth in the picture he managed to draw.
https://spielverlagerung.de/2015/12/05/tuerchen-5-ernst-ocwirk/
It's in German, so not much use to most in here, but some of the illustrative links from the third part of the piece are still active. If there's interest, I can translate his conclusions at some later point.
The English translation of that whole article is available on the Caf
Ah great, do you have the link?
Search for Ocwirk on this thread on the first page. The second result has it.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/auction-draft-round-1-gstq-vs-arbitrium.445098/
Cheers! On first sight, that's a mixup of some passages of the article and interjected draft PR by idmanager. Most caveats and a few negative assessments are left out, and the most enthusiastic parts are penned by idmanager, if I'm not mistaken. Maric's article is more measured and analytical, and he comes to a different conclusion. (He speculates that Ocwirk's best position in contemporary football might be CB.)
From what I read just now, he describes his best position as DLP. I didn't see any mention of CB. But this was only the Google translate on my phone. So I might be wrong.
Last passage reads as follows:
idmanager interjected the "midfield great of modern times" part instead, and the Yaya/Busquets comparison.
Last edited:
Ocwirk would keep his in-game characteristics and his relative quality, he would have become an outstanding centerback or halfback*, a very good #6, and a good #8.
I don't think he meant CB because the qualities he describes of him don't have a hell lot to do with a CB does.
I thought he meant DLP. Something is lost in translation.
The below description sounds like a text book DLP cum DM
In the work against the ball, it was also common for Ocwirk to form a tight, flat triangle with the two defenders. Hanappi and Happel - especially the former - could then move out flexibly, Ocwirk blocked the middle and the central defender was able to move up; the triangle turned, blocking the opponent's options close to the ball. The two half-runners were also allowed to act much more freely.
Occurrently this seemed to limit Ocwirk's movements, but individual access moments and attacks were very effective. Intercepted passes with direct switching to the counterplay through own runs and long passes were possible
But why would he write "center back", then?
That's about defensive work, the part I translated is based on certain characteristics on the ball (as Maric describes them earlier).
I think Maric's argument is that certain limitations - as he made them out - were less of a problem in 50s football, but would make his ideal position a deeper one in today's environment. He pretty much describes why Ocwirk was rather dissimilar to Busquets (contrary to what idmanager inserted).
Most importantly: He also clarifies that both his portray and the speculation about Ocwirk today inevitably rely on guesswork. It's merely an attempt to make the best out the existing material, without forgetting how sparse it is.
Maybe he mixed up with older names, where full back was CB, half back was a B2B midfielder and centre half was the DLP cum DM.
I don't think saying his modern position would be that of a CB makes much sense w.r.t the rest of the article.
Last edited:
@Synco
https://abseits.at/fusball-in-osterreich/sonstiges/oesterreichs-fussballerlegenden-1-ernst-ocwirk/
I have some more content bookmarked somewhere, will share if I find them.
Try reading this article on Ocwirk as well if you are more interested. It's in German as well from the same author Maric and has parts of that interjected write up (the bit on Busquets, Carrick and Yaya for example). It's funny the author think he is like Busquets but you felt the author finds him dissimilar to Busquets. Lost in translation somewhere I guess.
.
https://abseits.at/fusball-in-osterreich/sonstiges/oesterreichs-fussballerlegenden-1-ernst-ocwirk/
I have some more content bookmarked somewhere, will share if I find them.
Last edited:
Rather sure that can be ruled out. You can still disagree with it of course, it's nothing more than a speculation.
I think what has to be seperated is the description of Ocwirk's actual midfield role in the 50s, and the speculation about his ideal position in the changed footballing environment of today. The latter is based on some observations on individual traits earlier in the article, such as first touch, passing technique, physical coordination, allround vision, ...
Alright, that at least explains the origins of some of the more enthusiastic quotes. (Although the Caf post still seems to be a mixup of quotes and self-penned parts.)
Maric wrote the Spielverlagerung article two years later. In it, he says the Abseits portray was based on quotes and writings about Ocwirk, about "how good he was - or rather how good he was supposed to be. (...) That spurned the desire to find out more. How good was he for real?" The resulting SV article is the outcome of going through all the video material he could find. Consequently, some of the SV article reads like a revision of parts of the earlier article - in my eyes especially the part on Busquets, as some of Busquets' key traits are described as relative weaknesses.*
But really, the speculation about Ocwirk today is nothing more than an afterthought of the article, and takes up probably less than 10%.
----
* edit: Not a revision on a second thought, it's actually a coherent argument - key is still the difference between Maric's description of how Ocwirk played in the 50s, and how he sees a hypothetical transition to modern football.
Last edited:
Early 1950s were the time when the 2-3-5 was transitioning into 3-2-5/WM. Ocwirk started his career as a fullback in 2-3-5 before Smistik made him a half back and when team shifted to 3-2-5/WM.
I'd classify him with the likes of DM who can drop back to CB. Closest modern approximation by playing style would be Hierro (but with more pace and physicality).
I'd classify him with the likes of DM who can drop back to CB. Closest modern approximation by playing style would be Hierro (but with more pace and physicality).
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...-haaland-ronaldo-streltsov-miracle-simplicity
Quite an interesting article with Streltsov featuring prominently @harms
Quite an interesting article with Streltsov featuring prominently @harms
Yeah, I've seen it already. Cheers!
Wilson is a brilliant writer, his articles are always worth reading.
Wilson is a brilliant writer, his articles are always worth reading.