German Football 20/21

Hansi Fick

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Because prior to Flick Boateng didn't perform in these 4 years to the level everyone expects of him and one might argue his lack of focus also didn't help with his injury record. Let's also not forget that the club DID put a lot of trust into the young Boateng and DID defend him in the past too so this isn't a totally black and white story.
I think in the end it's down to the fact that Boateng lost focus in the last couple of years and combined with mediocre performances, injuries and a questionable lifestyle (you can argue that's his thing but it still reflects on the club) as well as his push to leave the club 2 years ago simply means he doesn't have as much credit as he used to have. He used up whatever goodwill there was so people shouldn't be too surprised that the club isn't too eager to extend with a 32 year old Boateng who isn't going to accept lower wages.
It should also be mentioned that we already have replacements ready and that Boateng only played 1,5 of 4 half times in the CL finale/semi finale. Boateng is a good CB at the moment but also not great or exceptional. He is certainly reliable but let's not forget that our defense is currently out biggest weakness (our defensive record in the league is the worst we have had in decades) and Boateng/Alaba are at the core of that defense. That doesn't mean I'd blame it just on them either (it's clearly also down to the overall performance/tactics) but it should be mentioned because sometimes you'd think Alaba/Boateng are prime Ramos/Van Dijk in discussions like this. We let someone like Hummels go who is still performing at a better level if I'm being completely honest.
It's absolutely not a 'totally black and white story', you're right, and I wouldn't mean to imply that.

But I have to wonder, what exactly is the "questionable lifestyle" that you claim Boateng has? Why is this notion floating around, what is it based upon?
As @kaiser1 writes, the first massive criticism, after his peak period, came from Rummenigge at the time Boateng signed a representation deal with Jay-Z's agency, and I think he was launching some sort of lifestyle magazine? (Not sure I remember that right)
This coincided with a lengthy period of Boateng having injury problems and struggling for fitness, and I remember Boateng took great offense to the insinuation made by Rummenigge that the two, his activities in his private life and his injury struggles, were related. Rummenigge saying that Boateng "would be better served focusing more on football again".
And we don't know why they would be related. Launching a sunglass collection or a lifestyle brand isn't detrimental to your health. For all we know he never missed training due to partying or any such stuff.

So why are these activities supposed to be 'questionable'? Müller spends a lot of time breeding dressage horses these days and in the recent years, he makes a lot of social media posts about it and is sure investing a lot of his private time in it, and noone gets the idea that its detrimental to his fooball career.
Why is Boateng's stuff different?

So the conclusion that there are prejudices connected to cultural-socioeconomic complexes, let's call them, at work, isn't too far fetched?
 

Blackwidow

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Isn't it always like this?

In good times nobody asks for your freetime activities - when things don't run they get questioned...

Boateng's problem at Bayern is that he never really had a good relationship to Rummenigge or Hoeneß.

I do not know what went wrong there. But it might have started that he took Nerlinger as agent after his time as manager at Bayern and in a time in which Nerlinger openly critisized Bayern.
 
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Kasper

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Yeah, there is definitely a subtle element of racism involved when it comes to Boateng both in media coverage as well as from Bayerns higher ups. No one gives a shit if Thomas Müller buys horses while playing dogshit for 1,5 years but of course conservative/reactionary figures like Rummenige or Hoeneß will be irked when someone like Boateng engages in activities that don`t align with their cultural perception of how the world should look like.
 

Hansi Fick

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Isn't it always like this?

In good times nobody asks for your freetime activities - when things don't run they get questioned...

Boateng's problem at Bayern is that he never really had a good relationship to Rummenigge or Hoeneß.

I do not know what went wrong there. But it might have started that he took Nerlinger as agent after his time as manager at Bayern and in a time in which Nerlinger openly critisized Bayern.
Is there bad blood between Nerlinger and the two?
I mean obviously he can't be happy about the way his time as DoF and the end of it went, but aside from it not being too cordial I always assumed they'd maintained some sort of solid respectful relation.
But maybe I'm just assuming this because Nerlinger looks so gutmütig.
 

stefan92

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So the conclusion that there are prejudices connected to cultural-socioeconomic complexes, let's call them, at work, isn't too far fetched?
I absolutely agree, but my feeling is that Boateng more or less is a "typical Berlin hipster". That cultural-socioeconomic complex just does not fit the Bavarian one. What Müller does (breeding horses) fits much better than launching a lifestyle magazine (just think of Uli Hoeneß sausage factory as a related business).

So I am quite sure, if we had a black Thomas Boateng breeding horses and a white Jerome Müller being a hipster the Bayern board would still criticise the hipster, no matter who of them is black or white.

More or less this is the same discussion we had a few weeks ago about how people see the clubs from Berlin - the reasons why Boateng is disliked could be similar to the ones why his youth club Hertha BSC is disliked.
 

HerrLeinad

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It's absolutely not a 'totally black and white story', you're right and I wouldn't mean to imply that.

But I have to wonder, what exactly is the "questionable lifestyle" that you claim Boateng has? Why is this notion floating around, what is it based upon?
Before I write this let me be clear that I don't care about the personal lifes of footballers in general and I don't like to even write about it but in the case of Boateng this isn't just random speculation. Just recently he had a public internet fight with his former girlfriend (the one he left his wife and children for and where accussations ofdomestic violence are still an ongoing juidical process) who then committed suicide later on. Now I don't want to play the "blame game" but can we agree that these things aren't "normal" and represent just the recent sad "highlight" of Boaten'gs personal life clearly affecting his job?
Boateng's choices are obviously his and I don't want to judge someone based on a juidical process that hasn't concluded but let's be honest here, the people within the club probably know more and thus it wouldn't surprise me if certain decissions/statements are made with that knowledge in mind.

As @kaiser1 writes, the first massive criticism, after his peak period, came from Rummenigge at the time Boateng signed a representation deal with Jay-Z's agency, and I think he was launching some sort of lifestyle magazine? (Not sure I remember that right)
This coincided with a lengthy period of Boateng having injury problems and struggling for fitness, and I remember Boateng took great offense to the insinuation made by Rummenigge that the two, his activities in his private life and his injury struggles, were related. Rummenigge saying that Boateng "would be better served focusing more on football again".
And we don't know why they would be related. Launching a sunglass collection or a lifestyle brand isn't detrimental to your health. For all we know he never missed training due to partying or any such stuff.

So why are these activities supposed to be 'questionable'? Müller spends a lot of time breeding dressage horses these days and in the recent years, he makes a lot of social media posts about it and is sure investing a lot of his private time in it, and noone gets the idea that its detrimental to his fooball career.
Why is Boateng's stuff different?
Because Müller has obviously a stable private life and is a model athlete? People like KHR don't make such statements because they are bored, there is obviously more to it than just "launching a sunglass collection" and in the case of Boateng there is A LOT more and you can be sure that KHR, UH and so on are aware of more than the public knows. Let's all remember what UH for example knew about Daum that for some reason went completetly under the radar for the public for so long...

So the conclusion that there are prejudices connected to cultural-socioeconomic complexes, let's call them, at work, isn't too far fetched?
Come on, it's really lazy to play that card. We had players like Matthäus and Effenberg in the past with questionable lifestyle choices too and they weren't free from criticism either, especially in the case of Effenberg it was even one of the main reasons why he failed in the first attempt at the club. I also still remember Scholl and all the criticism he got due to his "teeny star" behaviour, not to mention Ribery.
If anything Boateng had it a lot easier than many of our stars in the 90s or even 00s, people like KHR, UH and Beckenbauer used to be a lot more direct and blunt in their criticism. There is a reason why you have to use the very mild criticsm of "would be better served focusing more on football again" to even get a quote (and that even ignores the context in which KHR made it).
At the same time it was Boateng who chose to ignore his own teams mates and didn't attend the championship party (he was the only player to do so). What does that tell you about the "team player" and "leader" Boateng?
We know of that because it was reported on (and why Boateng later apologised) but these are the things club figures are aware of and you can be sure there is more of that noone in the public will ever know about (maybe years after a player's career).
The club usually doesn't lose his patience with a player too quickly and it's not like anyone in the club has ever crucified Boateng but I feel like people are now expecting far too much from the club for a player who doesn't justify it overall and wanted to leave the club himself just 2 years ago.
I would even go so far and speculate that many would critise KHR etc. for keeping Boateng around if he hadn't suddenly returned to be a good player under Flick once again.

PS: Süle was just recently criticised a lot more by KHR than Boateng and that is a player who returned from a major injury and didn't have the complete trust of his coach.
 

Acrobat7

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For all non-German readers: The last posts highlight why a lot of German posters flog to this forum even though it is not in their native language and even though it is about „some English club“.

This is a great forum for conversations and discussions about football and so much better than anything we have in German. People don’t always agree (and why should they) but it is a mostly civilized conversation between posters who care about their content.

That‘s also why you won’t get rid of „us“. ;)
 

mazhar13

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For all non-German readers: The last posts highlight why a lot of German posters flog to this forum even though it is not in their native language and even though it is about „some English club“.

This is a great forum for conversations and discussions about football and so much better than anything we have in German. People don’t always agree (and why should they) but it is a mostly civilized conversation between posters who care about their content.

That‘s also why you won’t get rid of „us“. ;)
I was just about to comment on this. Most of the great discussions that I've read on this forum occur between the German posters. If I wasn't so lazy, I'd probably jump in and get involved as well, but I'd rather not break the flow that you guys have in your discussions.
 

kaiser1

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@HerrLeinad
Good post you have up there, I didn't want to copy it all but I doubt there have been many players recently who have as much public criticism as Boateng and he has not been the worst Bayern player
November 2016 Rummenigge: "Boateng should come back to earth, he should focus on football and forget the limelight"
May 2019: Ulli: "I will advise Boateng to find a new club, He looks out of place"
March 2021: Ulli: "I wouldn't take Boateng to the Euros, we have a lot of defenders like Sule Rudiger and Hummels" (None of these is better than Boa, Sule even sits on the bench for him at Bayern). Most teams take 4-5 CBs to a tournament and we do not have 4 CBs better than Boateng

These are the ones I can recall and they seem to be unprovoked attacks and sounded very personal. Seems like they are going out of their way to have pointed attacks at Boa. e.g what would it cost Ulli to say "Low should take back all 3 players" Not like Low will do it because Ulli said so, but picking on 1 just seemed like he wanted to be a dick deliberately. Why does Ulli need to tell the press that Boa needs to find another club when he is under contract?
 

Hansi Fick

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Before I write this let me be clear that I don't care about the personal lifes of footballers in general and I don't like to even write about it but in the case of Boateng this isn't just random speculation. Just recently he had a public internet fight with his former girlfriend (the one he left his wife and children for and where accussations ofdomestic violence are still an ongoing juidical process) who then committed suicide later on. Now I don't want to play the "blame game" but can we agree that these things aren't "normal" and represent just the recent sad "highlight" of Boaten'gs personal life clearly affecting his job?
Boateng's choices are obviously his and I don't want to judge someone based on a juidical process that hasn't concluded but let's be honest here, the people within the club probably know more and thus it wouldn't surprise me if certain decissions/statements are made with that knowledge in mind.



Because Müller has obviously a stable private life and is a model athlete? People like KHR don't make such statements because they are bored, there is obviously more to it than just "launching a sunglass collection" and in the case of Boateng there is A LOT more and you can be sure that KHR, UH and so on are aware of more than the public knows. Let's all remember what UH for example knew about Daum that for some reason went completetly under the radar for the public for so long...



Come on, it's really lazy to play that card. We had players like Matthäus and Effenberg in the past with questionable lifestyle choices too and they weren't free from criticism either, especially in the case of Effenberg it was even one of the main reasons why he failed in the first attempt at the club. I also still remember Scholl and all the criticism he got due to his "teeny star" behaviour, not to mention Ribery.
If anything Boateng had it a lot easier than many of our stars in the 90s or even 00s, people like KHR, UH and Beckenbauer used to be a lot more direct and blunt in their criticism. There is a reason why you have to use the very mild criticsm of "would be better served focusing more on football again" to even get a quote (and that even ignores the context in which KHR made it).
At the same time it was Boateng who chose to ignore his own teams mates and didn't attend the championship party (he was the only player to do so). What does that tell you about the "team player" and "leader" Boateng?
We know of that because it was reported on (and why Boateng later apologised) but these are the things club figures are aware of and you can be sure there is more of that noone in the public will ever know about (maybe years after a player's career).
The club usually doesn't lose his patience with a player too quickly and it's not like anyone in the club has ever crucified Boateng but I feel like people are now expecting far too much from the club for a player who doesn't justify it overall and wanted to leave the club himself just 2 years ago.
I would even go so far and speculate that many would critise KHR etc. for keeping Boateng around if he hadn't suddenly returned to be a good player under Flick once again.
I understand and appreciate the bolded, and don't get me wrong, I was writing not as confrontative to your post, just wondering along with it.
And I didn't intend to make 'racism' the driving force in how the club handles Boateng, I didn't claim it is, and it surely isn't. And to the small degree I suspect it might be involved, obviously it wouldn't be about Hoeneß literally thinking, "I don't like about Boateng that he's black". It would be things, notions, prejudices that are floating around in society and which, maybe just very indirectly, affect their actions and how they think about stuff.

But how do you know that there is "a LOT more" to Rummenigge's criticism of his lifestyle?
Because you assume Rummenigge saying public stuff would be well informed, carefully targeted and adequate smokey in relation to whatever fire exists?
And because Hoeneß knew that Daum was a cokehead? (Honestly, considering the state of reality-denying grandeur that it turned out Daum was already in, what with the "GO AHEAD TEST MY HAIR; I VOLUNTEER!!", it might not have been such a great secret, just Hoeness was the only one willing to break the code of silence, it seems)
I don't know. Doesn't really convince me to the point where I just swallow such serious accusations*, even if implied, towards a great, deserved player, without it being more tangible. I mean what are you implying? That Boateng was doing drugs?

*accusations in the sense of a severe violation of professionality for a top athlete, I don't really have a moral problem with people doing drugs in general, glasshouse etc
 

King Kendrick

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No need to worry. They will finish dead last and will go down (to hopefully play against HSV again).
The Bundesliga team wins the playoff in about ~80% of times I think (which is why it was a shit idea to reintroduce it) but Schalke will in no way reach the playoff spot.
Thanks, I knew they were dead, just wondering if they were on life support or in the grave.
 

do.ob

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Why would his private live even be relevant? Please lets not pretend like Hoeneß or Rummenigge are moral people, there is plenty of proof to the contrary. The only thing that matters is how well someone does on the pitch and there Boateng seems to be in good standing with his coach, fending off high profile players like Süle and Hernandez.
 

do.ob

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You mean at Bayerns board? You know that we have many dark skinned players right?
And we recently tried everything to extend Alabas contract.
To be honest I mostly had the public perception of Boateng in mind, but "we have many dark skinned players" is a bit like "I have a dark skinned friend, so I can't be racist", it hasn't even been long since a racism scandal was discovered at the club's academy. In any case I don't think it's the foaming at the mouth kind of racism, but rather a more subtle variant.
 

Hansi Fick

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Why would his private live even be relevant? Please lets not pretend like Hoeneß or Rummenigge are moral people, there is plenty of proof to the contrary. The only thing that matters is how well someone does on the pitch and there Boateng seems to be in good standing with his coach, fending off high profile players like Süle and Hernandez.
To be precise he isn't fending off Hernandez, Alaba is. Two left footed CBs has been tried by Flick once or twice for lack of options (Alaba and Hernandez), but Alaba as right sided CB was seriously awkward.
 

HerrLeinad

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@HerrLeinad
Good post you have up there, I didn't want to copy it all but I doubt there have been many players recently who have as much public criticism as Boateng and he has not been the worst Bayern player
November 2016 Rummenigge: "Boateng should come back to earth, he should focus on football and forget the limelight"
May 2019: Ulli: "I will advise Boateng to find a new club, He looks out of place"
March 2021: Ulli: "I wouldn't take Boateng to the Euros, we have a lot of defenders like Sule Rudiger and Hummels" (None of these is better than Boa, Sule even sits on the bench for him at Bayern). Most teams take 4-5 CBs to a tournament and we do not have 4 CBs better than Boateng

These are the ones I can recall and they seem to be unprovoked attacks and sounded very personal. Seems like they are going out of their way to have pointed attacks at Boa. e.g what would it cost Ulli to say "Low should take back all 3 players" Not like Low will do it because Ulli said so, but picking on 1 just seemed like he wanted to be a dick deliberately. Why does Ulli need to tell the press that Boa needs to find another club when he is under contract?
I mean you have 3 quotes over a period of 5 years in which Boateng had many, many injuries and often didn't perform to the level he obviously can, not to mention that even these quotes aren't really much of an attack (they are certainly not "personal", it's always about the performance of Boateng or his actions within the team, the officials never talked about his private life despite ample opportunity) and seem really mild tbh especially if you consider that it was Boateng who was looking to force a transfer.
In regards to UHs recent statement and not taking Boateng... Is that really so controversial? This isn't about being "better" or "worse" than the alternative but Boateng just isn't reliable on a physical level. I once again remind people that Süle played 2,5 out of 4 half times against Lyon/PSG in the CL tournament because Boateng had to be subbed off due to injuries.
That doesn't mean I would be against a Boateng comeback in the NT but of the three players (Müller, Hummels, Boateng) to pick from there is a decent argument why you wouldn't pick Boateng for a comeback.
Also I can only speculate but it does feel like there is more going on behind the scenes in regards to Boateng and if UH is cautious about Boateng in public then that makes me think. UH had no problems in the past to push players like Boateng and others so if he hesitates now one has to wonder about the reasons for it.
Also it's always easy to pick out the few criticisms towards a player over the years but KHR, UH etc. also had to say many, many extremely positive things about Boateng too, let's not forget that.
 

kaiser1

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To be precise he isn't fending off Hernandez, Alaba is. Two left footed CBs has been tried by Flick once or twice for lack of options (Alaba and Hernandez), but Alaba as right sided CB was seriously awkward.
In the recent game vs Stuttgart when Alaba was moved to CM, Boa was played as LCB and Lucas benched. That is the only game I can recall
 

HerrLeinad

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After yesterday's game I don't want to show a knee-jerk reaction but let me just say that Boateng and Alaba didn't do anything to change my opinion that moving on from them is probably not the worse idea. It was also another match in which Hernandez is our only defender (CB) who actually consistently performs well though it should be mentioned that Pavard had a good game too (back to his performances from last season).
You also have to admire the mentality of the team. Even if we are down 0:2 to a team like PSG you always feel like we can comeback from that. Obviously I'd prefer it if we wouldn't have to do that so often this season but it's still a good quality to have and gives me some hope for the 2nd leg.
 

Piratesoup

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After yesterday's game I don't want to show a knee-jerk reaction but let me just say that Boateng and Alaba didn't do anything to change my opinion that moving on from them is probably not the worse idea. It was also another match in which Hernandez is our only defender (CB) who actually consistently performs well though it should be mentioned that Pavard had a good game too (back to his performances from last season).
Spot on.
It's sad from a sentimental perspective, but Boateng is way, waaaaay past it and just can't handle the speed at the highest level at all anymore, while Alaba is fantastically versatile but will never be a great CB. They where a sieve all season and struggled super hard to defend even relatively harmless counters, they struggle in 1 on 1 situations and consistently let attackers slip between them on runs. Their ability to pass from the back isn't enough to balance out their considerable shortcomings on the defensive end.
 

do.ob

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I can't argue with daily life at Bayern, since I don't watch enough of their matches. But I find it a bit strange to come to that conclusion after the PSG game. Like for the first goal it was arguably Kimmich who softened up the defense, by losing track of Neymar between the lines and then Neuer with an inexcusable blunder.

For the second it was - again - Kimmich, who allowed Neymar to make the assist (though it was such a brilliant and unexpected pass, I'm not sure whether it's fair to blame Kimmich for a lack of urgency) and then the entire Bayern defense - save for Alaba, who is the only player to react at all - gets caught off guard.

Only then, after 30 minutes, after the damage had been done, did Boateng actually enter the pitch and Alaba was actually moved into midfield.

On the third goal, you can see Boateng is left alone vs both Neymar and Mbappe. I don't understand why he pushed up as far as he did, but he actually manages to recover and get infront of the ball, so if he made a mistake, he was able to correct it himself. Alaba is - again - the only one, who reacts with urgency to the situation and gets within striking distance of Mbappe.

It reminded me of Dortmund a bit.


Also:
"Last year we had a team, that in terms of quality - and everyone knows that and will agree with me - was better than the team this year".
I didn't watch the presser, so I don't know the context, but there seem to be a couple of statements from Flick lately, that "accidentally" feed the media some crumbs to report of his supposed conflict with Brazzo.
 

Zehner

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I believe Salihamidzic is the Bundesliga's equivalent to Darth Vader. He was sent by the football god to bring balance to the league :drool: Come on Brazzo!
 

Hansi Fick

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Spot on.
It's sad from a sentimental perspective, but Boateng is way, waaaaay past it and just can't handle the speed at the highest level at all anymore, while Alaba is fantastically versatile but will never be a great CB. They where a sieve all season and struggled super hard to defend even relatively harmless counters, they struggle in 1 on 1 situations and consistently let attackers slip between them on runs. Their ability to pass from the back isn't enough to balance out their considerable shortcomings on the defensive end.
You can't simply blame it on our central defense's individual performances if the whole team's approach is geared towards radical verticality and running forward recklessly, relentlessly, without responsibility or remorse. What we are playing is absolutely crazy. Positiv bekloppt. I don't think I've ever seen anything like it.

So these are not 'relatively harmless counters' (which counters involving Neymar and Mbappé are harmless, by the way?), our whole committment to attacking has every opposition getting high quality opportunities regularly. We've seen it the whole season, we've seen it last season also in the games we won, Barca, Lyon.
And connected to that is the reason why Flick chooses Alaba and Boateng over a strong individual defender like Hernandez. It's almost as if he explicitly prefers compromising even the remnant of the defending bastion (because yes, those two are surely not the best individual defenders) in favour of their quality on the ball.

So the problem I see is this: There's no way we'll be defensively solid with Flick's approach, even with new CBs that are somehow Herculean in their individual defending.
Our hope, and salvation, is outscoring the opponents and suffocating them with attacking domination. And there Alaba's and Boateng's Spielstärke plays a huge role.
I'm not sure the gain of better defensive behaviour in individual duels will outweigh the loss of quality in possession, seeing that we will still be hopelessly, magnificiently overcommitted to attacking under Flick.
 
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Acrobat7

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I believe Salihamidzic is the Bundesliga's equivalent to Darth Vader. He was sent by the football god to bring balance to the league :drool: Come on Brazzo!
Nah, you had your chance with the Ancelotti/Kovac double-whammy.
 

Hansi Fick

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Also:
"Last year we had a team, that in terms of quality - and everyone knows that and will agree with me - was better than the team this year".
I didn't watch the presser, so I don't know the context, but there seem to be a couple of statements from Flick lately, that "accidentally" feed the media some crumbs to report of his supposed conflict with Brazzo.
I read this quote too and I find it very weird. Going to need the full context, exact wording of the question, to know what it means.

At surface value, it's hard to agree with it, unless you rate Thiago even higher than I do..
 

do.ob

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I read this quote too and I find it very weird. Going to need the full context, exact wording of the question, to know what it means.

At surface value, it's hard to agree with it, unless you rate Thiago even higher than I do..
I took it from Kicker: https://www.kicker.de/flick-jeder-w...itativ-letztes-jahr-besser-war-801871/artikel

They interpret it as a jab at Brazzo, but they don't really go into it further. Maybe he's talking about the team that was actually on the pitch vs PSG in both instances (e.g. Lewandowski fit), or maybe he's just referring to his first team, where I think most would agree that more was lost with Thiago's departure than Sane's signing added. Though upon reading it again I realize he specified "last year vs this year", so I guess that makes the second option more likely.
 

stefan92

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I took it from Kicker: https://www.kicker.de/flick-jeder-w...itativ-letztes-jahr-besser-war-801871/artikel

They interpret it as a jab at Brazzo, but they don't really go into it further. Maybe he's talking about the team that was actually on the pitch vs PSG in both instances (e.g. Lewandowski fit), or maybe he's just referring to his first team, where I think most would agree that more was lost with Thiago's departure than Sane's signing added. Though upon reading it again I realize he specified "last year vs this year", so I guess that makes the second option more likely.
I think that's the point of it - you have to guess what his comment really means. A lot of people will see it as a jab at Salihamidzic, but when Flick is asked about it internally he can just claim he was talking about the injuries or whatever. And I am sure Flick is aware of this and does this on purpose to undermine Brazzo.
 

Hansi Fick

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Another question is what 'quality' is supposed to mean. With fatigue, injuries, etc, right now the team has arguably less quality in the sense that it's in a worse state and plays worse than last season. It doesn't necessarily mean squad planning. Anyway, I don't care. Friction generates energy :wenger:
 

kaiser1

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You can't simply blame it on our central defense's individual performances if the whole team's approach is geared towards radical verticality and running forward recklessly, relentlessly, without responsibility or remorse. What we are playing is absolutely crazy. Positiv bekloppt. I don't think I've ever seen anything like it.

So these are not 'relatively harmless counters' (which counters involving Neymar and Mbappé are harmless, by the way?), our whole committment to attacking has every opposition getting high quality opportunities regularly. We've seen it the whole season, we've seen it last season also in the games we won, Barca, Lyon.
And connected to that is the reason why Flick chooses Alaba and Boateng over a strong individual defender like Hernandez. It's almost as if he explicitly prefers compromising even the remnant of the defending bastion (because yes, those two are surely not the best individual defenders) in favour of their quality on the ball.

So the problem I see is this: There's no way we'll be defensively solid with Flick's approach, even with new CBs that are somehow Herculean in their individual defending.
Our hope, and salvation, is outscoring the opponents and suffocating them with attacking domination. And there Alaba's and Boateng's Spielstärke plays a huge role.
I'm not sure the gain of better defensive behaviour in individual duels will outweigh the loss of quality in possession, seeing that we will still be hopelessly, magnificiently overcommitted to attacking under Flick.
I totally agree with this

Bayern under Flick plays an insane high line and I will never call a counter vs Neymar and Mbappe harmless. Our tactics are usually not to defend but to stop the opponent from getting the chances
The winning goal had Neymar and Mbappe facing only Lucas and Boateng was running to recover. Watch this and freeze at 0.07 to see the starting position of our defenders vs 2 of the best strikers in world football.
 

kaiser1

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What Flick was talking about is We lost Coutinho Thiago, Perisic Odriozola and gained Sane, Sarr, Costa, Roca, Chupo Moting

Sarr Roca and Costa have been disappointing, to put it mildly. A player like Perisic was very useful last season. Last season we could bring Perisic, Coutinho even Tolliso off the bench.
 

teteus

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You can't simply blame it on our central defense's individual performances if the whole team's approach is geared towards radical verticality and running forward recklessly, relentlessly, without responsibility or remorse. What we are playing is absolutely crazy. Positiv bekloppt. I don't think I've ever seen anything like it.

So these are not 'relatively harmless counters' (which counters involving Neymar and Mbappé are harmless, by the way?), our whole committment to attacking has every opposition getting high quality opportunities regularly. We've seen it the whole season, we've seen it last season also in the games we won, Barca, Lyon.
And connected to that is the reason why Flick chooses Alaba and Boateng over a strong individual defender like Hernandez. It's almost as if he explicitly prefers compromising even the remnant of the defending bastion (because yes, those two are surely not the best individual defenders) in favour of their quality on the ball.

So the problem I see is this: There's no way we'll be defensively solid with Flick's approach, even with new CBs that are somehow Herculean in their individual defending.
Our hope, and salvation, is outscoring the opponents and suffocating them with attacking domination. And there Alaba's and Boateng's Spielstärke plays a huge role.
I'm not sure the gain of better defensive behaviour in individual duels will outweigh the loss of quality in possession, seeing that we will still be hopelessly, magnificiently overcommitted to attacking under Flick.
Guys, I know that Jupp Heynckes' Bayern wasn't anywhere near as defensively vulnerable to counters as Flick's, but Hansi Flick is surely Jupp Heynckes' disciple. What Flick did was fully rescue the traditional Bayern play style, which is full of verticality and intensity, while he also added even more pressure and aggressivity into it.

This also makes me remember the philosophy of Pelé's Santos in the 60: if the opponent scores two goals, we'll score three. If the opponents scores three, we'll score four. If the opponents score four, we'll score five. And so on. And it worked
 

do.ob

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I think that's the point of it - you have to guess what his comment really means. A lot of people will see it as a jab at Salihamidzic, but when Flick is asked about it internally he can just claim he was talking about the injuries or whatever. And I am sure Flick is aware of this and does this on purpose to undermine Brazzo.
Yeah, it's looking to me like that as well. You would have to be a total idiot not to realize who eager the media will pounce on any even slightly ambiguous statement and if you actually want to it shouldn't be a problem to express yourself clearly.

And I've got to say it's getting a bit irritating to hear the most privileged coach in German football constantly bitching about his superior.
 

HerrLeinad

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I can't argue with daily life at Bayern, since I don't watch enough of their matches. But I find it a bit strange to come to that conclusion after the PSG game. Like for the first goal it was arguably Kimmich who softened up the defense, by losing track of Neymar between the lines and then Neuer with an inexcusable blunder.

For the second it was - again - Kimmich, who allowed Neymar to make the assist (though it was such a brilliant and unexpected pass, I'm not sure whether it's fair to blame Kimmich for a lack of urgency) and then the entire Bayern defense - save for Alaba, who is the only player to react at all - gets caught off guard.

Only then, after 30 minutes, after the damage had been done, did Boateng actually enter the pitch and Alaba was actually moved into midfield.

On the third goal, you can see Boateng is left alone vs both Neymar and Mbappe. I don't understand why he pushed up as far as he did, but he actually manages to recover and get infront of the ball, so if he made a mistake, he was able to correct it himself. Alaba is - again - the only one, who reacts with urgency to the situation and gets within striking distance of Mbappe.

It reminded me of Dortmund a bit.


Also:
"Last year we had a team, that in terms of quality - and everyone knows that and will agree with me - was better than the team this year".
I didn't watch the presser, so I don't know the context, but there seem to be a couple of statements from Flick lately, that "accidentally" feed the media some crumbs to report of his supposed conflict with Brazzo.
Goals happen because of mistakes but defenders are there to compensate for them and players like Boateng and Alaba often simply fail in that regard. I mean you talk about the 3rd goal and Alaba reacting with urgency, did you ignore that it was Alaba who created that situation with a horrible misplaced pass because he chose to ignore Davies on his side for some reason?
And people now argue it's so hard to defend because it's Neymar and Mbappe... Let's be honest here, both didn't really have great games and didn't need to do much to even get their chances/goals. Mbappe didn't require some crazy skills or a dangerous dribbling, the situation was pretty straighforward but Boateng hesitated to challenge Mbappe and that isn't a new problem, our CBs often refuse to go into such duels and instead just watch their opponents (Hernandez is the exception and Hummels used to be too when he was still around).
We have conceded the same type of goal many, many times in the BL against absolutely average BL players too. The excuse here is basically that our defenders aren't expected to successfully defend vs Mbappe/Neymar despite the fact that they didn't even get to do much in the game.
Well, my expectation is that the CBs at a club like Bayern should be able to handle such situations more reliably. It's obviously not always possible but I'd argue that the average BL CB couldn't have done worse against PSG or in the BL in general this season. There is a reason why we play our defensively worst season in decades(!) and it's not all down to tactics.
 

Hansi Fick

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What Flick was talking about is We lost Coutinho Thiago, Perisic Odriozola and gained Sane, Sarr, Costa, Roca, Chupo Moting

Sarr Roca and Costa have been disappointing, to put it mildly. A player like Perisic was very useful last season. Last season we could bring Perisic, Coutinho even Tolliso off the bench.
Damn. I completely forgot Coutinho and Perisic.
 

Acrobat7

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One step closer to next season‘s HSV vs. Schalke clash in the second division.
HSV seems to really like it down there. :drool:
 

Blackwidow

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What a team...



If it would just be rest it would be fine - but as it is some just are not available because of problems.