What if we, and please bear with me here: What if we just play Kimmich as striker?!
German Football 20/21
- Thread starter do.ob
- Start date
I think Kimmich simply has more value playing right back as the options are really not good. To me the team seems stronger if he doesn't play in midfield, as the midfield players all have quite a bit of quality. You are definitely right about Goretzka and his instincts, but I do think he'd be able to play like Martinez did for Bayern. His skillset is sufficient.
Can simply lacks quality and had some real blunder in bigger games. He's always close to game deciding errors, which is why I'd never play him in a first 11. Positions are not as important as tactical instructions imo. Gündogan showed recently that he can be a real goal threat and he was played fairly offensively considering his usual positions. As I said before, Volland/Werner showed often enough that they're not good enough for the highest level.
Honestly, I'm pretty sure he'd do the job better than Werner and not worse than Volland.
Pretty sure that would be a better idea than Gündogan
But it doesn't work like that, you can't tell Goretzka that he's a big fella, so he should forget all his instincts and just play the opposite way in a holding role. And your Martinez/Schweinsteiger comparison is flawed anyway, because both Schweinsteiger and Martinez were infinitely better than Kroos at covering for their team.
Kroos has been a liability in a double pivot all his career. Even when he was young Löw really tried to make it work after the 2010 WC, but eventually had to admit defeat and just benched him for the 2012 Euros. Then he tried again afterwards, but abonend the idea at the 2014 WC, then he tried again, but abandoned the idea when the games got serious at the 2016 Euros. Then he finally persisted with it at the 2018 WC and got rewarded with a sweet group stage exit. Here we are 11 years down the road and we're looking at a Kroos double pivot again. It's absolutely insane.
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I'd go with something like this:
---Kimmich------Hummels-----Rüdiger--------Koch---
-----------------------------Kroos-------------------------------------
--------------Goretzka-----------Gündogan-------------------
--Gnabry--------------Havertz---------------------Sane-------
Maybe Müller for Goretzka and/or Werner for Sane. I also believe Löw should copy Guardiola in possession: Kimmich drifts into the midfield like Cancelo did and gives either Gündogan or Goretzka the freedom to go forward.
---Kimmich------Hummels-----Rüdiger--------Koch---
-----------------------------Kroos-------------------------------------
--------------Goretzka-----------Gündogan-------------------
--Gnabry--------------Havertz---------------------Sane-------
Maybe Müller for Goretzka and/or Werner for Sane. I also believe Löw should copy Guardiola in possession: Kimmich drifts into the midfield like Cancelo did and gives either Gündogan or Goretzka the freedom to go forward.
As long as Müller can move around and can switch position with other players the position does not matter. But it is important that he plays on the central axis - either as a very mobile striker or behind a striker as he can organise best from this position. That there is players like Gnabry, Goretzka etc. that can switch with him is very important.
Löw already said - even if he does not give starting guarantees but that was somehow one (else he probably would not have got him back) - that Müller will not start on the wing but play centrally - and then it means that he will have a mayor role with his organising and orchestrating skills in pressing, runs and plays.
I only would play Kimmich on the right if I would have a more defensive solution on the left. But he from this position could play an inverted fullback in the version it was played with Pep at Bayern, too - with a lot influence.
The team - even without many changes offers a lot of variability. Question if they can play it out with such a short preparation - but Löw actually has the players that can arrange that and who can organise that on the pitch, too.
Asked if Müller and Hummels have a starting guarantee - answered at 1:11:00
and 1:21:35 about Müller's position
Löw already said - even if he does not give starting guarantees but that was somehow one (else he probably would not have got him back) - that Müller will not start on the wing but play centrally - and then it means that he will have a mayor role with his organising and orchestrating skills in pressing, runs and plays.
I only would play Kimmich on the right if I would have a more defensive solution on the left. But he from this position could play an inverted fullback in the version it was played with Pep at Bayern, too - with a lot influence.
The team - even without many changes offers a lot of variability. Question if they can play it out with such a short preparation - but Löw actually has the players that can arrange that and who can organise that on the pitch, too.
Who is that Havertz guy?
Asked if Müller and Hummels have a starting guarantee - answered at 1:11:00
and 1:21:35 about Müller's position
Playing Kroos as the sole defensive midfielder is courtin death. But I doubt Löw will ever bench him.
Interesting, but he basically said what could be expected, didn't he?
I think Hummels is basically guaranteed a starting position due to a lack of competition. With Müller it is more difficult I believe. In my opinion his performance depends greatly on how well the team plays. I'm not sure he can reproduce his performances for Germany without a real number 9 in the team. If you play him as a 10, who will you play up front?
I liked Havertz as a false 9 in the last games and believe it's the best solution for this position. This could work with Müller as well. But I don't think Müller + Werner as a lone striker would work.
It depends. Kimmich would play alongside him in possession and against the ball, someone like Goretzka can be really important to cover lots of ground. In general, Kroos is still too good to be dropped, IMO.
Not so sure if it's really as bad as you say or that maybe more factors were at play in said competitions. I mean, blaming 2018 on Kroos would be kind of shortsighted imo. He's got the quality to play there.
Yes, I agree, he's got to play central. I'd fancy him best as someone behind a striker as he wasn't too good as a real 9/false 9 in his carreer. He'd be able to organize better as well.
I'd love switch Müller in for Havertz tbh, or (as I suggested before, play Gündogan upfront), but unfortunately Müller has shown that he's not good as a 9/false 9. Havertz could be suited beautifully in that team.
Exactly. He's just too good.
"He's too good" is not an answer to tactical issues. Even less so, when we're talking about a player in the strongest area of the squad, who would potentially bench someone like Gündogan or one of Bayern's treble winners.
The answer to tactical issues is to adjust the tactic
That's what coaches do all the time. Every player has weaknesses that need to be covered.Especially since there are more tactical questions to be answered. As I said, it's really hard to leave Müller out of the squad given his performances this season and the season before this one but I really struggle to see a way to fit him in without a proper striker. Still, everybody is happy he's on board because he's too good to be left at home.
Müller has played more than 60% of the World Cup 2014 as a 9 - and scored all but one of his goals out of this position. During Pep's time in Munich he was as successful in the times he played as a 9 as Lewy when Müller did not play behind him. And I do not think that he was played perfect to his abilities there then as there was nobody in the team like Gnabry who can play upfront, too. As I said before - it is more important how you play Müller as on what position. He was a miserable winger but at the same time was a great right winger, too - same can be said about him as central forward. In front of a not very dynamic midfield 3 in a 4-3-3 he does not look great - but Lewy would by far not have 40 goals when Bayern would play like this.
As long as Müller has players near him he can switch the position with and can be somewhat like a marauding striker he will be the best solution even as a centre forward. And we have more of this players today than we had some years ago. You cannot leave him out - and he will not be left out - because he does not only provide goals and assists but can read the match, organize an offense and organize the pressing better than any other offensive can. He has been Germany's best offensive player in the last 2 years - and not just because of his numbers...
a) Toni Kroos is a terrific footballer, but so are Müller and especially Gündogan, who you can fit in without compromising your already shaky defense.The answer to tactical issues is to adjust the tactic
Especially since there are more tactical questions to be answered. As I said, it's really hard to leave Müller out of the squad given his performances this season and the season before this one but I really struggle to see a way to fit him in without a proper striker. Still, everybody is happy he's on board because he's too good to be left at home.
b) Sure, there might be some whacky asymmetrical idea out there to make it work. But is Jogi "imma just play that WC with Khedira and Kroos, watch me!" Löw the one to find such an idea?
Is a back three off the table then?
Neuer
Can Hummels Rüdiger
Kimmich Gündoğan Kroos Gosens
Müller
Gnabry Sané
Neuer
Can Hummels Rüdiger
Kimmich Gündoğan Kroos Gosens
Müller
Gnabry Sané
Look at Mexico's goal. That's 100% what I'm talking about: Khedira going forward, losing the ball and then Mexico hit them on the counter through the wide open center. Kroos doesn't even play entirely in the center, he usually drifts towards the left, which makes it even worse when you pair him with players who don't play with the utmost tactical discipline.
He's of course not the only reason why 2018 was such a shit show, but this naive idea that you can just play him with a box to box midfielder next to him and it will somehow work out, because he's a good footballer completely wrecked the defensive stability of die Mannschaft.
And I also think people need to rethink what makes a great footballer. Germany don't have a team that can dominate their opponents all game, defense is just as important as attack and if you're a passenger without the ball, then clearly you're not indispensable.
Odds are Löw will come up with some brilliant ideas and then start from scratch after one or two games. It's what he does every tournament.
That's a bit absolute, isn't? Quality moves in waves, and you would expect Germany's average quality to be well above that of those three countries; but Portugal, the Netherlands, and Belgium all have particularly good generations sometimes, and it's perfectly fine if that puts them level with Germany for a moment.
I don't know about Portugal with a declining Ronaldo, but I'd say the Netherlands are well below Germany right now despite recent results (especially now under De Boer), and Belgium is on a high that puts them in the global top bracket - although they might already be on their way down.
Sure there are always ups and downs, that's why I wouldn't take France's current output as a benchmark, but Germany has about double the population of these three countries combined and the better league and a host of progressive coaches. Unless they have an absolutely golden generation those countries shouldn't be anywhere near the German team on paper.
Officials from Bundesliga clubs and DFB personnel alike have been alarming people about a lack of quality reinforcements for years. It's not like this is a bit of bad luck, there seems to be structural problem. There have already been some reforms, but I guess it will take a couple of years before we see what they bring.
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Did understat make their evaluation stricter or is this the effect of Corona? Dortmund, Frankfurt and Mainz (Freiburg?) are the only teams I can spot who improved in both categories. It's perhaps also telling how close Wolfsburg and Frankfurt are to their previous performance, despite finishing way above expectations.
What I'm seriously, honestly surprised about is that our xG against only seems to have slightly increased from last season; seems completely wrong considering the frequency of top chances we conceded this season and how much we struggled defensively.
Then again, last season had a chunk of Kovac disorder in it.
It was not so much different last season, was it? Even in the best games Bayern were likely to concede goals. The big difference is that it did not matter last year because you could be sure to outscore that so you did not really have to worry about it. That confidence is gone this season.
This season we outscored the xG by 23 and were 5 goals against worse than the xGa.
Last season we outscored the xG only by 7 and were 4.5 better than the xGa.
The xGa/shot from open play actually was 0.12 in both seasons whereas the xG/shot was 0.13 this season and 0.17 last. We had less creativity but more firepower!
Last season we outscored the xG only by 7 and were 4.5 better than the xGa.
The xGa/shot from open play actually was 0.12 in both seasons whereas the xG/shot was 0.13 this season and 0.17 last. We had less creativity but more firepower!
Why are some German ex players saying Lewandowski shouldn't play or shouldn't even try to break Muller's record today?
How pathetic is that?
How pathetic is that?
Did they? I only read comments wishing for him and Lewandowski to keep it at a shared record.
People here don’t like change. It’s absolutely ridiculous to even suggest this and goes against any athletic spirit.
Who said it?
Müller is an all time great currently wasting away from Alzheimer's disease. It would be a nice gesture to let him keep a shared record, but I don't think anyone is doing more than suggesting the idea.
Quite a few good byes in Bundesliga today:
Alaba and Boateng are leaving Bayern after (over) a decade at the club.
Leipzig all time greats Upamecano and Nagelsmann finally leave the club after shaping such a large part of its history.
Dortmund are saying good bye to Schmelzer and Piszczek, (Hummels aside) the last two players who remained from Klopp's league winners.
Fan favourite Oscar Wendt leaves Gladbach after a decade.
Both Bender twins decided that it's time to give their bodies some rest.
Sami Khedira and Julian Schieber, slayer of Manchester City, will retire as well.
Marco Rose and Adi Hütter will finally have to say their sad good byes to their current clubs.
And of course Schalke are saying good bye to Bundesliga in their quest to retire from professional football. Werder Bremen might join them depending on the events of the day.
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I think a lot just get sentimental when it is about Gerd Müller - because of what he did for club and national team and because of his current situation. But Gerd probably would be the first who would cheer for Lewy.
Weinzierl, the coach of Augsburg, told that he will try to make tactics that stop Lewy scoring no. 41. He was player of Bayern's U23 when Gerd Müller was assistant coach - even spent a trainingscamp in Spain with him together in a shared bedroom.
Weinzierl, the coach of Augsburg, told that he will try to make tactics that stop Lewy scoring no. 41. He was player of Bayern's U23 when Gerd Müller was assistant coach - even spent a trainingscamp in Spain with him together in a shared bedroom.
I guess you didn‘t see Gündogan play for City this yearPretty sure that would be a better idea than Gündogan
And he's also the opposition coach of today so there's that..
Apart from that, as far as quick googling shows, only Hamann said anything like that, and Hamann is talking obnoxious crap for a living.
Kroos actually even played occasionally as a single DM during Madrid's La Decima season, before Casemiro was integrated into the team. He's certainly no Kanté but he's relatively good at intercepting and anticipating, a bit like Busquets. Gündogan has also played the Fernandinho role for City under Guardiola. I think you're exaggerating a fair bit.
Especially since we would be very flexible with Kimmich as an "inverted RB". In possession you'd have a midfield consisting of Kimmich, Kroos and Gündogan or Goretzka, depending on who of them goes forward. On the right wing, Gnabry provides depth and on the left wing it's Gosens, e. g. This would also work well with Werner as a LW who makes many runs into the center and naturally leaves his side exposed now and then. Havertz as a false 9 would also work well with either Gündogan or Goretzka pushing up and Werner making runs inbehind. And with Rüdiger and Süle we even have two fast CBs in the team again to provide the pace Hummels is lacking.
Madrid's La Decima season was in 2013-14, when Kroos was still at Bayern. In the three titles they won following, from 2016 to 2018, Kroos was with Madrid but Casemiro was firmly in the side by then as part of that famour Madrid 3 midfield.
Gundogan was playing the Fernandinho role last season mostly and was criticized by City fans for those performances, though they were mostly when playing alongside Rodri, who himself was getting used to playing in England. The argument was that Gundogan and Rodri were too slow and passive to be the defensive midfielders. Playing as a DM has arguably been Gundogan's weakest performances for City, even previous to this season his best season was the 2018-19 season when De Bruyne was injured for much of the season and Gundgogan played alongside Silva and Fernandinho.
My favoured line-up would be:
---------------------------Neuer---------------------------------
-------------Sule----Hummels---Rudiger----------------
Klostermann-------------------------------------Halstenberg
------------Kimmich---Goretzka----Gundogan------
--------------------Gnabry----Muller-----------------------
I prefer the 3 man midfield because I don't trust Rudiger as part of a 2 man central defense. Rudiger has been in amazing form and therefore I feel should be in the team, but that has been as part of a 3 man midfield, playing in a 2 man midfield is entirely different. It will also give Hummels more protection and allow him to go forward as part of the buildup without worrying about not having protection.
I liked how Germany generally played with the 3-5-2 midfield when Low tried it with Gnabry and Sane as the front two. Muller has to be play given his immense form. Kimmich would seem to make more sense as a RB given our weaknesses in that position, but he's our best midfielder and therefore should play there to maximize his ability. I'm also not as negative about Klostermann as others.
If we have to play 4-2-3-1 then I would drop Rudiger and play Sule-Hummels, drop Gundogan and bring in Sane as a LW (Gnabry RW) and Muller is the CAM.
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End of an era today, when Alaba, Boateng, and Martinez will all play their last game for Bayern. That's three out of our five players who won the treble twice.
I think he's talking about the 15/16 season, Casemiro didn't start for a hand full of games there, some of which they lost (e.g. 0:1 against Atletico and 0:4 against Barcelona). I don't really see what that is supposed to prove. The same season Ginter had a spell of six assists and one goal from six games at RB, does that mean he's good enough to play that role for die Mannschaft as well?
Even in 2015-16 Casemiro started all but 2 of their UCL matches, one of which he was injured for and the other was the opening match against Shakthar. He was very important in the European campaign, in the league he started much less but then again they were far off the league title that year
I agree though that Kroos cannot be trusted at DM. The only way I can imagine that happening is if we play a 4 man diamond like how Juventus and Italy played during Pirlo's later years, basically have the energy around Kroos and let Kroos just play as a distributor. You can try that with Goretzka, Kimmich and Gundogan/Muller in the diamond with Kroos.
Is the myth that nobody ever parks the bus & everyone plays good football true?
My bad, I somehow recalled Kroos first CL with Real Madrid was La Decima. Anyway, he definitely played single DM in some of those matches. Just double checked it, for instance away vs. Roma, at home against City and at home against Donezk. And the seasons before that, he played even more regularly in this position. At this time he was also praised for making a step up defensively by German and Spanish media outlets and pundits.
Predictions for final day then?
Think Koln will step up and beat Schalke but Bielefeld will lose at Stuttgart who've had a good season so Bremen can play out a draw and gamble on staying up in play offs as they just about did last season.
Think Koln will step up and beat Schalke but Bielefeld will lose at Stuttgart who've had a good season so Bremen can play out a draw and gamble on staying up in play offs as they just about did last season.
Bremen is done