You can have your opinion about the form of the protests, but there are a few surveys (e.g. by the Kicker) that show that the vast majority of the German fans is supporting a new vote regarding the deal.
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German Football 23/24 |
- Thread starter do.ob
- Start date
it was the protest
Reports had it that Brazzo was about to extend Davies before he got fired
What do these so called fans want? No investors but the league still be competitive? That's a pipe dream. The marketing of the Bundesliga is already massively behind other league. If these ultras have their say, it will fall behind only further.
Like it or not investors are the future of football.
I also believe these protests more and more become demonstration of power. These idiots love they can disrupt a match at will as often as they want.
Some clubs seem not to care about it and let these fans do what they want. Time to cancel a game and deduct points.
I'm sure the clubs will then act swiftly to stop this nonsense.
The problem is to have Bundesliga and 2 Liga under one roof.
The interests of Bayern, Dortmund, Leipzig or Leverkusen are just completely different than Elversberg, Osnabrück or Wehen.
'So-called fans'? You can disagree without the attitude, you know. Maybe these people just don't care as much about the international pedigree of the Bundesliga. That doesn't make them lesser fans.
The transfer of Hernandez was the major turning point.
Transfers over 20 million needed board approval. The were also no negotiations as Bayern had to cough up the release clause.
The transfer was a mistake, but I don't see how one can blame this solely on Salihamidzic.
They can protest I don't mind.
Interrupting games for 15 to 20 minutes and not only once but twice is an absolute no go.
The break yesterday changed to game totally. It also can easily cause muscle injuries because it can't be healthy to wait 15-20 min in the cold rain.
For other fans it's more than annoying. I arranged the pick up of friend at the airport and couldn't even watch the last 30 min due to the delays.
That's exactly why Bundesliga and Liga 2 should be separated as it is in England. The interests are just too different to keep them under one roof.
To me these protests getting worse because the ultras discovered their ability to disrupt matches. It's now more of demonstration of power.
The suggested deal doesn't have an big impact (if at all) and the investors don't have any control over the clubs.
These fans are just against any changes. It's like refusing use payment apps and insisting on paying with cash only. They won't change anything at the end.
I'm becoming quite partial to that as an idea.
The idea of seeing Liverpool or Spurs taking on an austrian team just isn't very interesting to me anymore. Seems a bit of a pipe dream to have a competitive match there and it just seems to feck up the austrian league as the prize money is so wildly out of sync with the league that you get one team dominating every season and getting further and further seperated from the other teams.
Just seems easier to create a competitive environment between 40 teams under one system than whatever today's mess is. I guess they're switching things up next season and it might help.
That's not really what the deal is about. It is rather making the Bundesliga more attractive to international audiences. In 2021/22, the Bundesliga generated ~€230M in international revenues, La Liga ~€900M and the EPL ~€1.600M. To a large extent this probably has to with the international audience perceiving the Bundesliga as boring because of Bayern winning 11 titles in a row but it also has to do with a lack of expertise in terms of marketing across all levels. The reasoning for the investor deal is that it would bring in money to see more campaigns through as well as the expertise to use the higher budgets more efficiently.
I think in most cases, the attitude stems from a general rejection of anything that smells like commerce. Anyway, how the deal was passed is definitely more than shady. Hannover's statement on the matter speaks volumes and however you think of the deal in principal, that shouldn't be how decisions of that scale are being made in the DFL. As it seems, the DFL willingly turned a blind eye towards the ongoing violation of Hannover's statitutes by Kind because they preferred this very outcome. You can argue that the interests of the first division teams and the rest are too far apart etc. but that's not how a democratic process works. The severity of the protests is definitely sparked by this though I agree that they are primarily driven by the ultras' egotism and narcissism.
And yes, the underlying problem (the bad international revenues of the Bundesliga) are driven by oldfashioned attitudes and I think in terms of overall digitisation and globalisation, the Bundesliga is downright terribly marketed but it is also quite clear that a competition that produced the same winner 11 times in a row is very hard to advertise to an international audience. Every Bayern fan I know is currently low key hoping that Bayern buys Wirtz and Alonso from Leverkusen after the season, maybe even a couple of players more. That would deal a devastating blow to the Bundesliga brand again but the international appeal suddenly doesn't bother them anymore when it is in conflict with the self-interests of their club. So on which basis could they criticize second division teams for not caring about international revenues?
Yeah, it was just a thought, wasn't really referencing anything in particular. I can understand the skepticism i suppose even if its potentially misdirected in this case.
More on topic:
I just found the above quote kind of troubling. It reminded me of Real fans arguing for the super league and saying they dont give a shit about the other 15 teams in the league, even while admitting that its probably in their interest to care more about them. I find it hard to believe that Dortmund, Leipzig and so on's agenda is that close to Bayern's. Even then i dont see why 4 teams interests are more important than the other 36. Just comes of as an attempt to extricate themselves from responsibility to a league and footballing pyrmaid that they're utterly dependent on.
I'm probably reading stuff into it that isn't there, and its misplaced. Just a few thoughts.
Clearly, you do mind if it inconveniences you. That's what protests are like though: if no-one is inconvenienced, no-one will care.
Bochum fans aren't in the 2. Bundesliga though. It sounds more like you would have to split off top 6 or so: the portion of the Bundesliga that can realistically hope to be internationally competitive and would need internationally competitive levels of media and marketing revenues to make that work.
That's actually the one reason why I'd like a European Super League: split off all the teams that are already in the stratosphere financially and let them play their own game. The remaining national leagues would then be much more competitive, and the remaining international matches (outside that ESL circus) would be also.
What does it matter to a Bochum fan if more people are watching the Bundesliga outside Germany though? Why would they want to sacrifice anything for that?
I think the circus aspect of the super league is the only reason people are opposed to it, UEFA aren't exactly popular. I'm sure theres some model that makes more sense than the current set up. I doubt it'd be a set up Real, Bayern and so on would be enthusiastic about though.
More TV revenue means more money for Bochum as well. And on a more intangible note, we all want our club to play in the best league possible. If we didn't, we wouldn't care about promotions or relegations. After all, your team is part of the league and if the league is doing well, this reflects positively on your team as well.
I mean, Bochum has just won against Bayern and fans around the whole globe took note of it because of the current title race. It sure feels nicer to win when all eyes are on you than it does when nobody cares anyway. Remember when Klopp was at Bayern and the broadcasters always mentioned how many fans from how many different countries were watching? It just feels nice when the league your team participates in is on top.
I get that this gets less relevant the farther your club is away from it. But it is still relevant.
I don't think I do
That period of being on top was built without that money though right? You concentrated on developing players after a bad world cup a decade before and had a strong crop of players and managers coming through at the same time. That talent has dried up a bit since but not due to a lack of money - Bayern spent a lot of money recently and it hasn't seemed to help much.
I get your point, just for the sake of argument.
This whole approach of seeking out an investor isn't a chosen few clubs against the rest. The proposal got voted in by a 2/3s majority among the top two divisions and Bochum's CEO in particular endorsed it publicly.
And I think in general the protests are more about principles and the DFL cutting corners multiple times on a such a sensible subject, than it is about who benefits to what extend.
I thought my post was clear enough. The issue isn't within the Bundesliga. If only Bundesliga clubs could vote, the result would have been like 14:4 pro investors.
However, in Germany the DFL consists of the 18 teams of the Bundesliga and the 18 teams of second division. Why? I can't tell you. Probably out of tradition because the 3rd division isn't part of it.
The interests of the top teams in the Bundesliga clubs are totally different than the interests of teams in the lower half of second division. They don't care about international football or being intensionally competitive.
To solve this issue both leagues should be managed differently, like it is in England with the EPL and championship beyond separated.
Second, the vote was a narrow win for the clubs supporting the transfer of the 8% TV revenue share to an investor. It was a democratic vote but the small group of ultras don't accept it and started the protests. If the minority (less than 33% here as it was 2/3 majority necessary) don't accept vote results anymore than it's the end of democratic processes (similar to Trump not accepting the 2020 election result).
Some claim that one president voted against the will of his club (Kind from Hanover 96) but I'm not sure how creditable this is as it was a secret vote.
Again it's okay to be against investors, some protests (no support for 10 or 15 min like in the beginning) are okay as well. Disrupting matches that they take then over 2 hours isn't!
The ultras realized the power they have and they love it. To me the protests turn more and more into a power demonstration of the ultras. They want to show who controls football.
I think in general, there's no denying that budget and quality correlate to a high extent
In that particular case, the international competitiveness of the league as well as the title races were built on tactical revolutions. The influence of van Gaal finally gave Bayern a philosophy and Klopp as a pioneer started a "pressing movement" - many clubs recognized it as a way to punch above their weight and utilized those tactics for relative successes on the international stage, particularly against English teams that relied on individual quality back then. The problem is, that's not really reproducable and by now most top teams have adapted their tactics and employed many of the best coaches of that era. Worth mentioning by the way that the early 10s as the strongest period for German football I can consciously remember as preceded by a "globalisation" of Bayern's transfer philosophy. Whereas they concentrated almost solely on the German market in the early 00s, they signed Ribery, Luca Toni and Arjen Robben as key players within a short amount of time and then also Thiago, Javi Martinez, Alonso, etc. Since then (probably due to Hoeneß' resurgence) they backtracked on that a bit and focused more on Bundesliga players again. I think that's not only bad for the league but for themselves as well. The current team is more physical but overall not even close to the squad they maintained under Heynckes and Guardiola.
So you do also support the actions of the last generation?
A minority, who is against commercialization and change, is terrorising the majority.
Just a thought. Think back to 80 and 90 when football wasn't that much commercialized yet. Where the football arenas as crowded as now? I remember I been at games with 50% it less attendence. Private TV money, commercials and commerical football shows are actually one reason the stadiums are sold out every weekend.
It's not like the fans are supporting the vote of their club. If I'm not mistaken also the Bayern ultras threw balls yesterday despite Bayern are of course in favor of an investor. The division goes through the fan bases. Most ultras are conservative, against new investors irrespectively of the stand of their club.
I don't even know how Bochum voted.
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Eventually this will be the direction football will develop. If we like it or not.
Question, what do they have to sacrifice?
i don't think it will, personally. The ESL would have no domestic support and that is still a bigger factor than international interest. IMO an ESL will generate much less money than the executives assume.
What's the alternative? Do you honestly believe, if Bayern isn't interested, Leverkusen would be able to keep Wirtz or Alonso?
Wirtz should have a good look at Havertz. He moved to the EPL and his development stagnated. Moving abroad to an elite club at a young age is double the challenge. Moving to Bayern he at least knows the league and country.
If Alonso doesn't join Munich, he will join Liverpool. You won't keep him longtime, especially after winning the title this year.
It doesn't matter if we can hold onto them. There is a huge difference between an important player/coach going to Real Madrid and a direct rival.
I like youWouldn’t that technically be a downgrade for both of them?
Yeah, impossible to deny.I think in general, there's no denying that budget and quality correlate to a high extent
Worth mentioning by the way that the early 10s as the strongest period for German football I can consciously remember as preceded by a "globalisation" of Bayern's transfer philosophy. Whereas they concentrated almost solely on the German market in the early 00s, they signed Ribery, Luca Toni and Arjen Robben as key players within a short amount of time and then also Thiago, Javi Martinez, Alonso, etc. Since then (probably due to Hoeneß' resurgence) they backtracked on that a bit and focused more on Bundesliga players again. I think that's not only bad for the league but for themselves as well. The current team is more physical but overall not even close to the squad they maintained under Heynckes and Guardiola.
I'm not sure the standard of international players bayern are picking up have changed much. Kane, Coman, Davies, Upamecano and Kim is a pretty decent collection of names. Mane was pretty sought after 18 months ago.
I just feel adding them to a collection of Neuer, Lahm, Boateng, Hummels, Kross (bayern really should have kept him), Muller, Schweinsteiger and so on is being pretty spoiled for choice. I think having even more players like Reus and Gundogan elsehwere in the league is just a crazy collection of players.
Which already is a reason for protest.
It seems to be an open legal question if the club board had the right to order the CEO (he isn't the president of the club) how to vote. Kind apparently wanted to ignore the order to vote against and the secret voting denied the club to verify if orders (which may or may not be legally binding) were executed. So all this went very shady to say the least.
In the spirit of the 50+1 rules the club should have been able to order how to vote, but it's possible that the letters of the law allow a loophole.
Either way by now the protest is not only about the outcome of the vote as such but also about the legitimacy of the voting process as such.
Yes, the overall decline in quality has various reasons and some of them out of their immediate control. But I think they backed the wrong horse. Until the appointment of Kovac, Bayern used to be the exception in the German football landscape since they played very possession oriented "Dutch" football compared to the high intensity pressing and transition style most teams committed to. They abandoned that style to an extent and targeted more physical and direct players. Nagelsmann and Flick were similar in their philosophies, deliberately encouraging turn overs in order to create counterpressing opportunities. They wanted to ensure dominance through intensity not through positional play like Guardiola. IMO, that backfired and the squad declined gradually without them noticing. Bayern now severely lack technical ability and football IQ - not only in comparison to their squads under Heynckes and Guardiola but also to other elite clubs. They sold Thiago and didn't even try to replace him. Their technically best player after Musiala is their back up LB that Dortmund denied a contract extention in the summer. Their CMs are bad at ball retention except for Kimmich, their CBs are limited in the build up, their forwards very direct and pacey. Right now, the only players I'd take for our starting line up would be Musiala, Kane and Neuer.
You can observe a certain patternof them over the last seasons - sometimes their intensity completely overwhelms their opponents and they score bucket loads like the 8:0 against Bochum and the 7:0 against Darmstadt. But when they don't, they are very vulnerable. Under Guardiola and Heynckes, they had this unbeatable aura when you lose with two or three goals difference and in the end you just have to admit that there was absolutely no path to a victory or draw, they were just so much better that no amount of randomness could have messed with this. They lost that aura completely. The games are much more open since they don't recycle possession that well anymore, are more prone to pressure and attack with head through the wall approaches rather than defense splitting passes and movement. Many Bayern fans attribute this to the resurging influence of Hoeneß after his jail sentence. After all, he's more of a traditionalist.
the 2 Bundesliga had more attendances this week than Bundesliga with 284,800 vs 264,050
shows how much we are missing certain clubs
shows how much we are missing certain clubs
Yeah, I was speaking more in general about revenue increases and international competitiveness not having to be everyone's dream. Once the vote has gone through properly, I agree that fans should stop actively disrupting games, as the majority of fans will have spoken then (and it's not like the investors thing is a gateway to fascism or something). But the way it's been, the vote has been shady and likely improper from Hannover's part - which is a lack of respect to the fan's position and I can imagine people think that's worth fighting against. Even if they did like the actual outcome of the vote!
It'll be fixed when Hamburg go up and Schalke go down.the 2 Bundesliga had more attendances this week than Bundesliga with 284,800 vs 264,050
shows how much we are missing certain clubs
Apropos Hamburg: They now signed Baumgart as their new manager (as expected). Let's see if he can finally get them promoted.
HSV vs. Köln relegation battle incoming
I am hoping you keep these players and Alonso for the next 5-7yrs remain competitive and become a legit 2nd force, But if you will have to sell these assets to other clubs and they will become a problem for Bayern in Europe, I will rather have themAnd yes, the underlying problem (the bad international revenues of the Bundesliga) are driven by oldfashioned attitudes and I think in terms of overall digitisation and globalisation, the Bundesliga is downright terribly marketed but it is also quite clear that a competition that produced the same winner 11 times in a row is very hard to advertise to an international audience. Every Bayern fan I know is currently low key hoping that Bayern buys Wirtz and Alonso from Leverkusen after the season, maybe even a couple of players more. That would deal a devastating blow to the Bundesliga brand again but the international appeal suddenly doesn't bother them anymore when it is in conflict with the self-interests of their club. So on which basis could they criticize second division teams for not caring about international revenues?
First choice Leverkusen , Dortmund Leipzig etc keep all their top players
2nd choice, Bayern buys them
I will rather have KdB Haaland etc in our team right now than having to face them vs City
Oh wow... didn't think about that before your post but that's actually a realistic scenario and would surely create some drama around itHSV vs. Köln relegation battle incoming
I didn't notice this focus on Bundesliga talents. Kane the captain of England was just signed, Broke the bank for Lucas Hernandez, Got the best defender in Serie A Kim and Deligt for huge sums
Maybe 'focus' goes a bit too far since your high profile transfers are indeed from other leagues. But you definitely re-developed a habit of signing lots of players from other German clubs, namely Laimer, Sommer, Sabitzer, Guerreiro, Upamecano, Pavard, Cuisance, Goretzka, Süle, Wagner and Rudy in the last six years, preferably when the contract constellation was favorable. I'd say none of them was a hit and many of them quite underwhelming.
This is Bayern in a nutshell. If they score within the first 30 minutes they "usually" win at least 3:0 and if they fail to do so they struggle to win and just might draw or lose. As you said: the aura is completely gone.
Many of these like Rudy Wagner Cuisance are just squad fillers and were never meant to have any meaningful mark on the first team. Pavard Goretzka Upamecano Laimer have been important part of the first 11
Before the last 7yrs we were doing key first 11 players like Neuer Lewandowski Gotze Dante Mandzukic Gomez Gustavo Olic
Plus the Kirchoff, Sinan Kurt, Rode, Baumjohan Nils Petersen, Starke, Ulreich