Can anyone explain why Joachim Low doesnt like Stefan Kießling? Look at his Bundesliga form last few seasons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Kießling
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Kießling
Germany at World Cup 2014
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Look at his international club matches - 3 CL goals in 15 appearances, 1 goal in 11 Europa League matches...
He has been a substitute at the World Cup 2010 - and it seems like he could not live very well with his role there. He has not been invited since.
And his playing style does not match to the team today either.
Enough reasons.
Germany have a very very good squad, but just like the past tournament, I dont think that they can win it. They do not play with one line up often because of all their top players, and there defence is just poor. Joachim prefers Mertesacker over Hummels, a defense of Boateng/Mertesacker is just too risky. We all hype them up at the start of a tournament, but they just cant beat spain/italy. It is a form of experience/determiness that they miss every time.
I agree that we're a bit overrated at the moment, but no one expected us to do that well in 2010. After Ballack's injury, we were a bunch of no names with a few experienced but not good enough players, Schweinsteiger and Lahm the only exceptions. No need to make it sound like we're underperforming for several tournaments now, the team that made it to the Euro final in 2008 was hardly a group of top players as well.
The semifinal against Italy in 2012 was a huge feck-up, no doubt about it. But that's it.
Looks like Lahm and Schweinsteiger will be fit in a few days, their small injuries shouldn't be a problem for the worldcup at all, really hope it stays that way.
They were not as good as they are now, but they also had Khedira, Ozil, Boateng who was performing well, Muller who played outstanding under van Gaal just like Badstuber, Podolski, Klose, Gomez
And it was an excellent achievement to make it to the semifinals? Not sure what the point is. You can't compare a bunch of 20 year old Germans after their breakthrough season with countless Spanish players at their peak? Finishing 3rd with that team was a success, not a failure.
Germany destroyed Australia (not special), England, and Argentinia at the World Cup. But at the moment of importance against Spain they crashed. Same 2 years later but then Italy. Against Spain, they just don't seem to bring it up, while they could.
We didn't crash, ffs. We lost against a Puyol header after a corner kick against one of the greatest nationalteams of all time with the golden boot winner of that worldcup suspended, which meant Piotr fecking Trochowski started for Germany in a worldcup semifinal. Clearly we suck and are mentally weak and it had nothing to do with a lack of individual quality in comparison to our opponents 4 years ago.
Exeggarating do they call that? You had a good team, Ozil, Schweini, Khedira, Muller, Gomez, Podoslki, Lahm, Boateng, Mertesacker, Neuer but you just couldnot go the extra mile, no shame or something. You are acting like you had a shit team. Those players are just quality. And oke, Muller was a young boy, so this time you cant expect players like Gotze, Neymar, Pogba to perform?
What the feck are you talking about? If Neymar plays a great tournament and Brazil goes out in the semifinals against a brilliant performance by Spain or Germany, he did perform, just like Müller - who wasn't even playing against Spain - or Özil, Khedira did.
If you can't see the huge gap in individual quality between Germany and Spain in 2010, I think we have to agree to disagree.
In 2010 before the World Cup the global press and public thought the German team was shit...much worse than in the glory days and even worse player for player than in 2006. The English media and the English fans agreed that Germany hardly had a player who would even make the English squad. Friedrich started in defense, Boateng as fullback, Podolski on the left wing. These 3 are hardly world class in those positions. Nobody outside of Germany had ever even heard of Khedira or Özil and all the people who knew Müller only knew that he was a Bayern youth player with no specifically incredible attributes who failed to score the equalizer in the CL final against Inter. It's ridiculous to say that only because these players are rated nowadays they failed back then. The only reason you consider them great players nowadays is because they had a breakthrough tournament in 2010.
Germany scored BY FAR the most goals in the tournament, played a brand of football that was great to watch even for neutrals and destroyed Australia, England, and Argentina.
For the game against Spain who had the much better individuals anyway Germany lost its talisman in Müller because of a wrongfully given yellow card in the game against Argentina.
So on the one hand you've got relatively unknown or just average players from Stuttgart, Bremen, Wolfsburg and so on in
Neuer, Khedira, Özil, Boateng (unknown), Friedrich, Trochowski, Podolski (average).
On the other hand you've got players like
Xavi, Iniesta, Casillas, Pique, Puyol, Villa, Alonso, Ramos, Busquets
who were all in their prime.
The Spanish squad looked MUCH MUCH better and yet they only won by 1 goal which they scored off a corner.
Make no mistake, Spain definitely deserved to go through, but Germany hardly crashed out or stayed under their possibilities when you look at the whole tournament. Most media was predicting Germany to fail in that World Cup due to their young and unproven squad. In the end they got third and were arguably the most exhilarating team in the World Cup. Great achievement!
2008 was kind of like 2002 where Germany with a shit squad and average performances somehow managed to get to the final. In 2006 the German squad was probably even worse and it must've been the home support that got Germany that far. Both those tournaments were also great achievements. 2012 though, Löw is fully at fault here for fielding a ridiculously stupid lineup vs Italy, Germany underachieved. The German media was already preparing for the final vs Spain and we didn't really think we could go out before the final which was stupid.
Agree with all this, in 2010 many people thought we would collapse after Ballack got injured. We played a great tournament though and only got knocked out against the best team in the competition. With so many young players in the team who have just played a couple of CL games at most it is still a great achievement looking back. I don't even know how we managed to go to the final in 2008, we really didn't have an exceptional team at all back then.
In 2012 I remember that Löw still played Podolski in a lot of the games and Reus didn't get much game time at all. I'm really excited to see him as a starter (hopefully) for the WC now.
In 2012 I remember that Löw still played Podolski in a lot of the games and Reus didn't get much game time at all. I'm really excited to see him as a starter (hopefully) for the WC now.
Germany were completely fecked up the Euros. Mind you, they got blown away by Balotelli. They'll get out in the semi-finals, once again.Agree with all this, in 2010 many people thought we would collapse after Ballack got injured. We played a great tournament though and only got knocked out against the best team in the competition. With so many young players in the team who have just played a couple of CL games at most it is still a great achievement looking back. I don't even know how we managed to go to the final in 2008, we really didn't have an exceptional team at all back then.
In 2012 I remember that Löw still played Podolski in a lot of the games and Reus didn't get much game time at all. I'm really excited to see him as a starter (hopefully) for the WC now.
Any news on Lahm? Will he be fit for the WC?
Yeah we were not very convincing in the knockout stages. However, I think we played quite well in the groups finishing first in the "group of death". Portugal and The Netherlands were still very strong sides. Schweinsteiger wasn't fit during the tournament as well, and I think the lost final in the CL 2012 might have played a part in the mindset of some of the players.
he just said during the very short party in munich, that he feels it's not a severe injury. His leg will be scaned tomorrow though. Then we will get more precise infos.
The difference between Neymar, Götze and probably Pogba and Müller back then is that it was Müller's first real year as a professional and prior to the first match against Australia he played exactly 90 minutes for the German team...
Götze had his breakthrough in 2010/11 and is a regular in the German team - even if he was not part of the starting formation since then. That was 3 years ago. Neymar got his first cap in August 2010. Pogba has finished his 2nd season as a professional in which he was playing pretty regular for Juventus.
Özil was 21, Schweinsteiger 24, Khedira 23, Gomez was not playing (and has never been good in the German team), Poldi was 24, Lahm 25, Boateng 21, Müller 20, Merte 24 or 25, Neuer 24. Khedira, Boateng and Müller were very new in the German team, Neuer the goalkeeper since Enke's death and Adler's injury, Özil in it since about a year. And the "leaders" just were grown out of talent age.
And Friedrich - so older - just got relegated with Hertha BSC... Klose had a pretty poor year in the Bayern squad. Podolski just returned to Cologne and his first season there was not great either...
Semi Final heartbreak again I think.
I'm surprised that Max kruse never made the cut, for a team the size of Germany to still be relying on Klose up front at his age is worrying. They've got the youngster Volland who's just had a great season but did absolutely nothing against Poland the other night. Their midfield is extremely talented though and I'm sure the likes of Muller or Gotze could probably step in as a no.9 but to go into a World Cup with only 2 out and out strikers is quite risky.
Max Kruse is no real forward either. He usually plays as a more hanging striker - in a more counter attacking system. He does not have any international experience and his numbers are not that great that he would be on the level of Reus, Müller, Götze or the ones of Özil from last year. He does not offer anything different. That is how Löw explained it - and he is right with it. And - apart from that there seems to be other "rumours" like that he used the match in London to have "woman visits" in the hotel. That can add to it, too, if you know how important discipline might be. If somebody sticks out and has already done a lot for a team you might look sideways but not at a newbie...
He's simply not good enough. Good player for Gladbach but he can be very wasteful with his chances, had a 10 game drought in the second half of the season as well. He definitely wouldn't solve our striker problems either.
As stated before I would've called up Lasogga.
Ahh I see, shame as I was rooting for them. Hoping for another strong tournament, this time with Gotze/Rues heavily involved.
Why not have Podolski up top ? Or perhaps Marco Rues, could it work ?
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There are worries that his injury might be worse than at first thought and his availability in the WC is in question. I really hope it's not that serious.
Scratch that, Bayern say both Lahm and Neuer are not in danger of missing the WC!
Scratch that, Bayern say both Lahm and Neuer are not in danger of missing the WC!
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Neuer out would be a big blow.
Apart from that I think the team is overrated at the moment. Lots of quality midfielders, but a quality striker is missing and the defense doesn't seem stable as well. Not to mention, that apart from Reus nearly no one is at his best form right now. A fit Gündogan and one of Argentinas strikers and we would win it.
I would laugh my ass off if we don't make it throw the group stage, I hope Klose gets his record though.
Apart from that I think the team is overrated at the moment. Lots of quality midfielders, but a quality striker is missing and the defense doesn't seem stable as well. Not to mention, that apart from Reus nearly no one is at his best form right now. A fit Gündogan and one of Argentinas strikers and we would win it.
I would laugh my ass off if we don't make it throw the group stage, I hope Klose gets his record though.
Germany will be the favourite.
cheers mate. great post.
To add my 2 cents to the WC 2010. Germany really didn't do anything out of the world. They beat an always horrible England team and an Argentina team led by Maradonna. Then they "only lost 1-0 against Spain" as someone mentioned earlier. Well, almost every team since 2008 only lost with a 1 goal margin against Spain, but that doesn't mean that Spain didn't dominate the games.
Germany hardly got the ball and when they did, apart from 1 or 2 decent chances they didn't do anything newsworthy. Portugal and Paraguay gave Spain a harder game than Germany in that WC.
Then someone also mentioned that while Germany apparently mostly had kids, Most of Spain's players were in their prime. Hardly. Few were, but Busquets was only 21, Fabregas, Pique and Pedro 23, Ramos 24. Even Iniesta and Torres were only 26, you could make a case for them being experienced enough / in their prime though.
Sooner or later Germany needs to make their talented/golden generation (however you call it) count. While Spain's golden generation from 2008/2010 is somehow still golden (not to mention the rain of the younger Spanish players they keep producing) and has won all 3 major tournaments since 2008, Germany has not even come close to making that last step - 1-0 wins or not. Teams like Italy, Croatia, Portugal and Paraguay have at least managed to run Spain close, Germany hasn't even done that.
Germany hardly got the ball and when they did, apart from 1 or 2 decent chances they didn't do anything newsworthy. Portugal and Paraguay gave Spain a harder game than Germany in that WC.
Then someone also mentioned that while Germany apparently mostly had kids, Most of Spain's players were in their prime. Hardly. Few were, but Busquets was only 21, Fabregas, Pique and Pedro 23, Ramos 24. Even Iniesta and Torres were only 26, you could make a case for them being experienced enough / in their prime though.
Sooner or later Germany needs to make their talented/golden generation (however you call it) count. While Spain's golden generation from 2008/2010 is somehow still golden (not to mention the rain of the younger Spanish players they keep producing) and has won all 3 major tournaments since 2008, Germany has not even come close to making that last step - 1-0 wins or not. Teams like Italy, Croatia, Portugal and Paraguay have at least managed to run Spain close, Germany hasn't even done that.
They have no chance with Loew........he isn't good enough for the last step.
I don't really know why you want to play the wins we had at the 2010 WC down tbh. It's not like we were clear favorites going into the games against England or especially Argentina. In fact I really thought Argentina would beat us this time...
I agree though in the game against Spain we didn't see much of the ball and only had a few good chances, then again Müller was out and we lost to a header after a corner...
Spain clearly deserved to win that game mind, no doubt about that.
Spain really had a better squad though at the time. David Villa was clearly world class and many other players were as well. I mean Piotr Trochowski started for us in midfield when they could play with a midfield consisting of the incredible Barcelona trio + Xabi Alonso.
In 2008 we didn't even know how we could make the final, our squad was really not good enough. Apart from 2010 we haven't played against them since.
Regarding your list of teams who were close to beating Spain, most of these games took place in the group stage and there's just a big difference between those games and semi final games.
If I remember correctly Italy played Spain in the groups in the Euros 2012 and played fairly well but in the final they got absolutely crushed.
In 2010 Germany had a leader in Schweinsteiger and 2 special players who could make things happen in Müller and Özil.
Özil as everyone knows doesn't do anything in most big games and Schweinsteiger alone will not win you a game. Müller, the only big game player we had back then who also had that X factor was out with a yellow card suspension.
Germany's squad in 2010 is not comparable to that of post-2010. This German generation has only been "golden" since right after that World Cup.
In that game Germany fielded
Neuer, Lahm, Friedrich, Mertesacker, Boateng, Schweinsteiger, Khedira, Podolski, Trochowski, Özil, Klose
against
Casillas, Pique, Puyol, Capdevilla(?), Ramos, Busquets, Alonso, Xavi, Iniesta, Pedro, Villa
The two lineups are hardly on par qualitywise. I don't see how Germany can be blamed for not being on par in the game.
Since 2010 the German squad has become about twice as good, but Germany and Spain have not met since. It's hardly fair to make an assessment about Germany has done against Spain with their "golden" generation as you call it, when that same generation hasn't even played them yet.
Infact I don't see why it would be about coming close to getting a better result than a 0-1 against Spain. It's not like anyone ever thinks about that? Surely the goal is on winning something and to say that other teams have done well and "Germany has not even come close" in regards to that is surely wrong. 2nd in 2008, 3rd in 2010, semifinals in 2012. I don't think that you can downplay Germany's achievements. Germany hasn't won any tournaments as of late but they never had squads that were anywhere close to being the best in the tournament. Considering that they have consistently done well in tournaments since the turn of the century.
Also nobody in Germany really refers to it as a golden generation at all. It's still probably the most talented generation we've had in the last few decades, but therefore they've lost other traits that the German players of old used to have.
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Alonso, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol, Casillas, and Villa were all in their prime then. Not really sure how that's debatable.
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Some points:
How was Pedro in his prime with 23?
So you lot are saying that Spain had better players? Well, of course they have had them, but that hasn't changed, has it? It's one way of saying Lahm and Schweinsteiger are in their prime now, but in 2010 they were the same age as Iniesta was for example and older than the likes of Ramos/Pique and much older than Busquets, Fabregas. The other way could be that this is their (Lahm and Schweinsteiger's) last chance to win the WC with Germany. Spain having better players hasn't changed, so if you apply the logic to 2010, you could apply ot now as well. The quality is still not comparable. Are for example Özil/Götze so much better than Isco who hasn't even made their 30-men list? Are Schürrle/Draxler really much better than someone like Muniain who also hasn't made the 30-men squad? Anothe way of looking at it is that Bayern broke their transfer record for one of Spain's national team player who so far hasn't even managed to be a regular for them. Same with United/Mata.
So Spain having better players won't change, not in the WC 2014 and also not int he next few years. Will you guys have the same reasons then again if you fail to beat them?
And I am not putting down your performance against for example England, but that England team was a joke which barely managed to come 2nd in a piss poor group in 2010. Despite what the media says and despite me rating some of the English players, they are just not a team, are tactically extremeley behind the top 10-15 nations and the way they play they don't deserve anything. Whereas Germany I see as a more serious and competent team in tournaments so I have higher standards for them to judge. These Standards however haven'n been met in recent tournaments for various reasons. And one reason probably is that the players were not good enough (yet) in 2010, but then for me that gap still applies. They still are not good enough compared to Spain (and maybe on par with Brazil).
Are you really saying that the gap between Germany and Spain in 2014 is still the same as it was in 2010?
Spain in 2010 had a strong core of experienced top players, who already won the biggest titles in football. The rest of the squad was filled with incredible talents. You simply can't say the same for Germany back then. It's clearly different now. Germany in 2014 is much closer to Spain 2010, the younger players already won titles and have more than just one break-through season. A lot of the experienced players have a different mentality now, the Bayern players didn't just fluke a CL final with a bit of luck, but had countless dominating performances in Europe. The squad depth is on completely different level as well.
Of course, it's not wrong to suggest that Spain still has the better team and the better squad. But even with countless injuries at the moment, we still can look forward to the worldcup, while in 2010 after Ballack's injury, the whole country went into meltdown and if you look back at what the foreign press wrote about the German team, you should realise that you're talking nonsense here.
Any interesting tune up matches for Germany ahead of the WC?
Not really. They'll play Cameroon and Armenia.
I live in Germany and I don't need to look at the foreign press to find out what the German press thought about Germany's chances in 2010. In 2008 they weren't confident, but in 2010 they sure were. And yes, the gap between Germany and Spain in 2010 in in 2014 is still the same for me, which is that Germany is a tier below Spain. It's was also a bit ironic that the whole country went into meltdown after Ballack's injury considering his abmysal record in finals anyway, as if he would have done anything. Everyone and his dog got carried away in Germany, especially after they beat the mighty Australia 4-0. Then came Argentina and everyone went crazy that while Spain is only winning 1-0 Germany are hammering teams. And then Germany met Spain. I have no doubt that Germany again will beat a couple of teams 3-0 or 4-0 while Spain will manage 1-0 wins again and we will have the same euphoria here in Germany again before they then meet Spain/Italy.
Seems like I live in a parallel universe then. And I highly doubt that we will beat a couple of teams 3-0 or 4-0 in the knockout stages of a worldcup ever again. It never happens, it was a one off and something really special. We haven't beaten a team by more than 2 goals since we beat Uruquay 4-0 in the quarterfinal in '66. (And if I remember correctly only twice beaten a team by more than 1 goal since '66 - France in '82 and Sweden in '06). So much about you not downplaying the games against England and Argentina in 2010
.LOL, I am not downplaying it, it's just what I thought about England and Argentina, I never rated Maradona's Argentina and let's not start discussing England, it was embarassing enough how the BBC pundits thought that England were player for player betterSeems like I live in a parallel universe then. And I highly doubt that we will beat a couple of teams 3-0 or 4-0 in the knockout stages of a worldcup ever again. It never happens, it was a one off and something really special. We haven't beaten a team by more than 2 goals since we beat Uruquay 4-0 in the quarterfinal in '66. (And if I remember correctly only twice beaten a team by more than 1 goal since '66 - France in '82 and Sweden in '06). So much about you not downplaying the games against England and Argentina in 2010
Anyway, you are more than capable of still beating teams like England 3-0, the real test will come against Spain/Italy and with Brazil we have to see.
Maybe Bayern's CL win last year has changed everything and they can now indeed make that final step but as far as I am concerned Spain still has the best squad in the tournament by far.
Sorry I meant to write Villa, not Pedro.
Schweinsteiger and Lahm both also were in their prime at that tournament but that's 2 world class players for Germany against like 6 world class players in their prime for Spain. Add to that the fact that Spain's additional players were mostly better as well.
It definitely has changed. Not in the sense that Spain's squad has gotten worse but in the sense that Germany's squad has heavily improved. I rate Germany's squad highly but I still agree that Spain's is by far the best in the tournament. But saying that Germany hasn't been anywhere close to being successful these last years and that they haven't improved at all is just wrong. Löw might still have his brainfecks at times, I'm sure that hasn't changed. But the player pool has gotten so much better.
I don't see your point in the whole discussion to be quite honest. You're agreeing that Spain had and still has the better players (despite Germany's squad probably being at #2 or 3 maybe), yet you say Germany's recent tournaments have all been failures. Wouldn't the fact Germany's squad isn't the very best mean that winning the tournament isn't a must? Getting 3rd in 3 of the last 4 tournaments and 2nd in the other surely isn't anywhere close to being a failure.
Also who gives a sh*t about the German sports media? I don't read it, most of my friends don't either, and the ones that do, don't base their opinions on what the media says. The media only says what they can sell, and ridiculous statements or stories are always gonna look better than downplaying the own abilities. What would you sell if you were working in the media? "Lets get to the Quarters and see from there on" or "5 Reasons Why Germany can win the World Cup"
The only reason why the pressure on the team is so high is that we've come so close everytime and people are thirsting for going the full way now. If you're being honest at least half the nation doesn't rate Löw, the people who know their football stuff anyway, and most will say that Germany isn't the out and out best team in the world. They will only say that we have to win it now because German teams in the past have done so and we've kept coming extremely close.
Also I think everyone agrees that England in 2010 wasn't at its best. Still it's an incredible feat to beat them 4:1 with a team of unknown youngstars with no experience and without their talisman player who's been the national team's star player for 8 years straight. Lets not forget Ballack, despite not having the greatest flair, always was the media's darling while playing for Germany and the hype around him being the man was so big, that nobody knew just how Germany would do in the World Cup. Now a German team with no experience beating an English team with lots and lots of experience that was called a golden generation as well isn't anything you can downplay is it? 4:1, England's biggest ever World Cup defeat! Afterall Germany vs England is always a historical duell and it doesn't even matter who the teams field, the pressure will always be on and the winner will be applauded, the loser will be laughed at.
I don't think it matters for your reasoning if you personally rate Argentina or not because almost everybody in the world would've agreed that Argentina's squad (which beat Germany just prior to the World Cup) is better than Germany's. Argentina, who had scored the most goals in the World Cup ahead of Germany prior to the game, had Messi, Agüero, Tevez, Higuain and Germany had Klose. Yes Maradonna was always suspect, everybody thought that, but the fact that Argentina playing with all their strikers and Di Maria and Maxi Rodriguez can't even get a single chance against Germany over 90 minutes (Germany was playing with Friedrich and Boateng in defence) is absolutely incredible. There's no denying that it was an incredible performance of the German team.
So basically this quote isn't one I can't agree with at all. Yes the game against Italy in 2012 was ridiculous, but aside of that Germany has been punching well above its weight ever since 2006. This German generation has arguably played the best football Germany has ever played in its history (on technical footballing level) and has had great games in all of the last 4 tournaments:
2006: Ecuador, Sweden, Argentina, Portugal (arguably even Costa Rica)
2008: Portugal
2010: Australia, England, Argentina
2012: Netherlands
Basically Germany has had a tendency of performing better at the World Cup than at the Euros this century, but they've still had highlights in each of the tournaments since Löw has been around (as an assistant and as a head coach)
Germany has furthermore had the best young player and the top scorer in both of the last two World Cup. They have completely changed their style from a physical side that somehow wins their games to an attacking side with lots of intricate passing that has scored the most goals in qualification for this World Cup. The last qualification game they have lost, be it for World Cup or Euros, was in October of 2007. In 2010, despite you thinking they haven't performed that well, Germany has scored 16 goals. The next best team scored 11, Spain scored 8.
This quote is the other one that I find weird. Nobody here denies the fact that Spain still has the very best players in the game. But you're completely neglecting that Germany's players have gotten so much better. You keep making these head to head comparisons between Spain and Germany, when the last time the two met, as we've been discussing, Germany had by far inferior and less proven players.
Nowadays players like Friedrich, Tasci, Trochowski, Marin, Kiessling, Cacau and Jansen can't get anywhere near the top players in Germany.
So no, Spain hasn't degressed, people are just hoping they've lost their hunger, which nobody really knows.
But one thing that is certain is that Germany has improved tenfold, and there's no denying that.
peace
To put it in a nutshell:
* Some poster claimed that Germany have failed recently
* Some German fans then said how they haven't
* I gave my opinion that they haven't managed the last step now for a while. You say Spain and Germany didn't meet since 2010, but Germany met Italy in 2012 and didn't have a chance and Spain then in the final hammered Italy. Now it's all if and buts, but considering Spain gave their best performance of the tournament in the final, I really don't think how they wouldn't have beaten Germany, too.
You say Spain was much better than Germany in 2010, now the gap is closer. I still say they gap is big, but even if it has become closer, Spain is still ahead. It's up to Germany to still find a way to finally beat the / a top team which has stopped them from winning titles in recent tournaments. It's like in the CL where the best/most expensive/most talented team doesn't always win. You say Villa was in his prime in 2010, true. But Torres by then was useless, they still found a way to make Villa's goals count. Villa was also still in his prime in 2012, but got injured. Spain still found a way to win the tournament without a single top class striker. So my point is that despite Spain being better, if Germany finally wants to win something again, they need to make the final step and still find a way to beat Spain instead of coming up again with "our squad is still young and not as experienced as Spain's". They sound a bit like Arsenal