Kroos by the way has 3.0 dispossessions per game right now which is the best value among all players at the Euros alongside Semedo. Also most consistent German passer with 91 passes per game and 95.3% accuracy. Really don't want him out of the team, he was brillant against Portugal.
Germany - Euro 2021 discussion
- Thread starter Blackwidow
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It looks like a reasonable setup, but that right side would be about as big a question mark as the current setup. The fact is that die Mannschaft neither has a RB nor a striker, so in the end it's less about what it looks like on paper than it is about finding creative solution on the pitch.
Kroos was poor against France. Played a lot of sideways passes and was completely ineffective in attack, alongside bring bullied by Pogba numerous times when trying to win the ball or when put under pressure.
I have no doubt that if Hungary decide to play with more aggressive counter attacking than Portugal did, they'll cause a lot of problems to Kroos-Gundogan midfield. I'm not getting excited by this result in any way, we've already had a lot of false dawns before followed by poor performances.
I still prefer the 3-5-2 set up, had been from before the tournament but would want Goretzka to play there in place of one of Gundogan or Kroos, and Kimmich also moving to midfield.
The issue of playing Goretzka with one of Kroos or Gundogan is that if Goretzka pushes into the box, neither Kroos nor Gundogan can cover the space behind with the opposition counter attacking. If Kimmich were playing there I would have more hope but it seems our weakness at RB is going to stop Low from playing him at CM.
In that sense, Gundogan-Kroos makes sense in that both sit back and prevent counter attacks, though that means we are less potent in attack, like was on display against France. Portugal for some reason just allowed a lot of space on the wings for Gosens and Kimmich to attack, would be interesting to see how Hungary play deep.
They're playing some nice football. However, Portugal made it easy for them yesterday. They will find it harder against Hungary.
If they were also playing in Hungary with a packed stadium, yeah. In Munich? No chance.
Portugal was giving too much space for German full backs. Should have matched their formation and an extra defender could have helped Portugal. Don't know why they didn't change it.
Germany was very comfortable yesterday.
Germany was very comfortable yesterday.
According to our Portuguese posters, they only have three CBs. The third one being a 38 year old Jose Fonte.
One would think so, but they don't actually.
Here's France's first offside goal. To be fair given that Kroos made no attempt to close down Pogba he must have known it would be offside.
This is before Hummel's heroic sliding tackle:
Again, Kroos - being the exceptional leader that he is - knew he could trust Hummels and didn't have to keep track of Benzema or put pressure on Mbappe. Genius
Bonus points for Pavard, he's so fast he took 10m on a 15m run from Kroos. It looks like Kroos is just walking a ta leisurely pace, but that's an optical illusion:
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Sometimes it is not about that what you define as "being a better footballer" - he might only be the better midfield passer - in every other category I have doubts about that.
And one position ahead? He is not on the level of KdB or Müller when it means chance creation - not even when it is about second assists - and I actually think that somebody like Goretzka with his speed and height would be the better scorer coming into the box from midfield especially when you have good crossers in the team. And Müller is something that does not need to be discussed. Spielverlagerung has analysed the third goal yesterday with his movement and what it resulted in yesterday and that might be interesting to the German speakers:
https://spielverlagerung.de/2021/06...omas-mueller-beim-dritten-tor-gegen-portugal/
I actually think that if you analyze the situations you will see that was a result of the movement of the three attacking players, too.
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Querpass-Toni always is a controversial one
I personally see the class but I hate his playstyle. It‘s particularly boring.
I personally see the class but I hate his playstyle. It‘s particularly boring.
Yea he wasn't great vs France. But I don't know if it's worse to play only one of Kroos or Gundogan with Goretzka, with Goretzka being a box to box midfielder, given the weakness of Gundogan/Kroos at defending or with Goretzka being a defensive midfielder, given that you're missing his attacking quality, or both without Goretzka.One would think so, but they don't actually.
Here's France's first offside goal. To be fair given that Kroos made no attempt to close down Pogba he must have known it would be offside.
This is before Hummel's heroic sliding tackle:
Again, Kroos - being the exceptional leader that he is - knew he could trust Hummels and didn't have to keep track of Benzema or put pressure on Mbappe. Genius
Bonus points for Pavard, he's so fast he took 10m on a 15m run from Kroos. It looks like Kroos is just walking a ta leisurely pace, but that's an optical illusion:
Ultimately, this boils down to whether we can trust Klostermann/Ginter/Can to play right back so that Kimmich can move centrally. It's clear Low doesn't have that trust and therefore it's one of the above options.
You could also play all three of Goretzka, Kroos and Gundogan with Havertz/Muller/Gnabry going out but then we become very weak offensively.
I think Querpass-Toni is much less of an issue than Turbo-Toni, who seems afraid of breaking a sweat defensively.
I mean Kroos either doesn't bother, is too high up the pitch or gets overrun, or all three points apply together. It's not like he provides any kind of meaningful cover. And Gündogan's role sees him push even higher up the pitch, without recovery speed. The plan seems to be that the back three can somehow cope on their own.
This is why I prefer the 5 man defense, with only a 2 man central defense it will be even worse with Gundogan and Kroos. Really give or take but I'm sure Low will keep the same formation and personnel. It was clear from his subs as well.
If Kroos is the most defensive midfielder, then a back three seems indeed mandatory. But if Kimmich were to move back into midfield a back four formation could potentially work. If only poor Löw had time to test theses things before the tournament.
Since everyone seemed happy with the defensive performance even against France, I don't expect any changes either.
I see them as decent favourites behind France and with Belgium, followed by Italy. Come the knockout stages, they will push on.
Very entertaining game.
Never right off the Germans.
Never right off the Germans.
Trying and failing with Kroos as the defensive player in a double pivot is the one constant of the Löw era.
Honestly, once goretzka is back might be time to try and go all in on bayern
You have a winger on the left side in gosens, a converted CB on the right on Ginger, and i guess you can try and see if Havertz can pull off a good enough Lewandowski impression
You have a winger on the left side in gosens, a converted CB on the right on Ginger, and i guess you can try and see if Havertz can pull off a good enough Lewandowski impression
Tbf, Kroos' workrate in this tournament has been really decent so far. Put Goretzka on his side, and we should be ok in the center.
He's getting some things done, when the situation is closed and he doesn't have to move much. But as soon as the situation is dynamic he just switches off, see France's goal or Pogba's performance in general, who had the time of his life, despite playing exactly in the space Kroos was occupying, because he was not closed down and had all the time in world to pick his passes. Only Goretzka and Süle have recorded lower top speeds than Kroos among his peers in die Mannschaft and that's because they only got a couple of minutes as subs. Even Hummels, who gets a ton of (justified) criticism for his lack of pace, was recorded more than 1km/h faster.
It's so incredibly easy to exploit him it's hard to believe. All you need is one good passer to lurk behind Kroos and one good runner to attack the back line.
Müller, Hummels and Gündogan are out of training today. Kicker reports Müller having a capsular injury of his right knee.
No estimates whether any of them are out for longer, but if the part about Müller is right, i guess he might be out for the rest of the tournament.
No estimates whether any of them are out for longer, but if the part about Müller is right, i guess he might be out for the rest of the tournament.
Timo time !Müller, Hummels and Gündogan are out of training today. Kicker reports Müller having a capsular injury of his right knee.
No estimates whether any of them are out for longer, but if the part about Müller is right, i guess he might be out for the rest of the tournament.
Gündogan comes out of a season that dwarfs everything Goretzka has done so far in his career. He's a bigger goal threat currently (although Goretzka is very good in this regard, too), a much better passer and much more pressing resistant while Goretzka has his physicality and pressure play going for him. Anyway, this CM position in a 3-4-2-1 is even less suited to Goretzka than it is to Gündogan. Goretzka's main strength is his verticality both in attack as well as against the ball. Just like Gündogan he would need to cut that short in this system since he's playing in a two man midfield. Only that Goretzka is much more prone to pressure and will lose the ball more frequently than Gündogan which IMO is a far bigger threat against teams that are dangerous on the counter. I think Frankreich would have had much more chances against Germany if Goretzka would have been playing since this position really exposes his weaknesses. I think with a back line like this it is most important to minimize easy possession losses. A two man midfield isn't ideal for any of our CMs bar maybe Kimmich (who ironically plays RB while Baku was at the U21) but that's something we have to accept now.
Edit: But I think Goretzka could come good as a CM against Hungary since we will most likely dominate them anyway. Aginst weaker teams, Gündogan had many opportunities to push forward, too, in this 3-4-2-1
Isn't that very hyperbolic? Seems to me at least.
Exactly! That's why I think Gündogan hasn't set the world on fire so far. Gündogan himself said that the new City system, in which one of the fullbacks drifts into the CM in possession, has helped him a lot since it gives him more freedom to leave his position and attack the box. That's also why I don't really understand why Löw didn't adapt this, especially given his admiration of Guardiola. Play Kimmich as a RB and let him drift into CM in a 4-3-3, then use a touch line winger (Sané? Baku?) to provide width. Then both Gündogan and Goretzka have more freedom to play out their strengthes. Anyway, we are not doing it, so we have to think within the 3-4-2-1 that's being played and I don't think Goretzka could do a job as one of the two CMs. If you ignore his runs into the box, general goal threat and his counter pressing, Goretzka isn't really that special. He'd have more pace then Kroos to cover ground but that's about it. But him being prone to press would leave a relatively slow backline even more prone to counter attacks, even if he played absolutely disciplined and didn't make his trademark runs and pressure plays.
At least against better opponents, that is. Against Hungary, it could work.
Well, no one's going to turn him into some sort of Gattuso, but that isn't his job there as a DLP anyway. An industrious ball winner partnering him would do, I reckon.
Hyperbolic hot-takes? Isn't that Zehner's Brand Identity?
I mean, Gündogan was City's best player for a sustained period of time. He's the top scorer of the team that won the best league in the world and made the CL final as a midfielder. And he didn't accomplish that by playing very risky, like for example de Bruyne who often has pass completion rates around 80%. He did so maintaining 91% and being one of the most pressing resistant players on the planet. I don't think one can argue Goretzka ever came close to such a level of performances over a whole season.
I gladly admit I'm wrong if you point me to a Goretzka season comparable to the one Gündogan just had
Just go a year back. He even won the CL...I gladly admit I'm wrong if you point me to a Goretzka season comparable to the one Gündogan just had
Playing nowhere near as good as Gündogan
And who would that be? Goretzka has an attacking mind of his own, he will be way too high up the pitch to cover for Kroos when die Mannschaft gets hit on the counter.
I feel like with Kroos people just pretend the defensive part of football doesn't exist. When Italy used Pirlo they protected him with Marchisio and de Rossi, Juventus did the same with Marchisio and Vidal. In Germany we just let him play on his own and hope for the best.
With Gündogan it's the same, "but look at how many goals he scored for City!". Well at City they have a coach who picks apart his opposition, die Mannschaft has a coach who picks his nose (sue me).
And funnily enough even Guardiola felll into the same trap as die Mannschadt in the CL final.
Kroos has the most ball recoveries in the tournament so far. I think you are looking for the fly in the soup a bit. He's not as bad as you paint him defensively.
I also think some people overrate the result against France. All things considered, it was a very unlucky game from Germany's perspective. If the opponent wins thanks to an own goal and needed world class plays to create every single (offsite) opportunities despite being able to wait for counters the whole game, chances are you did a few things right defensively.
Exactly.
Müller confirmed out for wednesday and very doubtful for a potential round of 16. Feck this.
What injury does he have?
He had an enormous impact on our game. He might not have scored as many goals as Gündogan did in his freak half-season, but there's more than goalscoring to a midfielder. And as the whole package, Goretzka has much more to offer.
Shit no...my favourite player is out of the tournament. I think I might have jinxed him by putting a bet on him for the player of the tournament. Any chance he will still be back if Die Mannschaft makes it to the quarter final?
Capsular injury of his right(? I think) knee, contracted late in the Portugal match.
There's zero experience, because Müller is never injured! Jokes aside, it's the knee.. takes time and has a nasty tendency to drawn out problems.
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Goretzka makes it sound not quite so bad, maybe there's hope after all
And what is that supposed to be? Gündogan is excellent at counter pressing as well but he's levels above Goretzka in terms of passing and pressing resistance and general control of a game. Goretzka is better at headers though, obviously.