I'll get behind him out of sympathy. I doubt we will win anything in the slightest under Ole but we chose him so we have to make do.
Get behind the manager and club
- Thread starter Nou_Camp99
- Start date
Well they might believe that, but only if they choose to ignore the wider context of how the club is being run, and assume that everyone running the club is acting in good faith towards the same goals that the top red has, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. But the truth is that the Glazers are not acting in good faith and Ole is there as part of that plan, lovable little imp though he is.
The problem is that once the top red accepts all that then his religion crumbles and he has to accept he is just a particularly gullible customer of an American owned business with no special status or worth. And then he's not a top red any more.
So yes - top reds do have to believe this rubbish in order to be top reds. It's what marxists call a false consciousness.
Tbh I feel sad for Ole or whoever would be our next manager.
I was a PM managed a software development team few years ago.
My best developers always wanted to jump, and everyone else wanted a raise. If I was too rigid they hated me, if I was too nice they became lazy.
Then I had a boss who was perfectly clueless and super stingy yet love to dictate everything. And he only love his money.
My customers were even more clueless yet they wanted everything fast, perfect quality and cheap.
My time there was so painful, a nightmare. Guess it's more or less the same for any United manager now I think.
I was a PM managed a software development team few years ago.
My best developers always wanted to jump, and everyone else wanted a raise. If I was too rigid they hated me, if I was too nice they became lazy.
Then I had a boss who was perfectly clueless and super stingy yet love to dictate everything. And he only love his money.
My customers were even more clueless yet they wanted everything fast, perfect quality and cheap.
My time there was so painful, a nightmare. Guess it's more or less the same for any United manager now I think.
Delusional top red at it again. Grocery list of excuses to hide the fact that United have been awful this season. Optimistm is one thing, creating a thread to attack fans that don't agree is another. This makes RAWK look grounded in it's height of delusion. More whataboutery to hide the sad fact that Ole isn't going to take us back to the top.
It's so easy to suddenly now mark Spurs as having a better squad. Amazing what proper coaching does, hey?
Of course we have an extremely talented squad. VDB, Bruno, Rashford, Cavani, Martial are class players. Telles is a very good left back, I don't think there's much between him and Regulon (if I remember correctly some people in the caf even preferred him when we were linked with both). Wan Bissaka is actually a solid right back who was one of the best in the league for Palace, and our holding midfielders are very talented too. Fred is one of the best ball winners and then you have Pogba to use or not use, up to the coach on how best to make use of him.
That sort of quality should be capable of more consistent performances even in this topsy turvy season. We were actually pretty bad vs Brighton, slow vs Chelsea, bad vs Arsenal, slow vs Newcastle, bad vs West Bromwich. That's not normal and it's not just part of this season, it's actually a follow-on from a downturn in form last season where we struggled against Leicester, Southampton, got knocked out by Sevilla etc.
And just to be clear we aren't expecting a title win, but we are expecting to do a fair bit better than 61 points, and Ole has all the tools to achieve this. He has no excuse for not showing good progression on last season's tally.
Just to be clear, I wasn't having a pop at anyone who is not a local fan, I was just stating that for the majority of fans, success is the main draw for fans. It doesn't even matter if that is the reason someone starts to support a certain club anyway. Choose whichever club you want, there is no rule for how to choose a club to support.
You really think Cavani or Martial is better than Kane, Rashford is better than Son, Mata or James is better than Lamela, Moura, Berwjin? Coaching or not.
Was Reguilon our first choice LB in the summer?
And VDB? Based on what you think he's class? Because he's as good as Mata in sideway and back passing?
The only player in our squad who is clearly better than theirs is Bruno. And probably AWB.
Anyway, good thing at least you're not deluded enough to think Ole would challenge for the title with the current squad. Which in other words, our ambition is merely a top 4.
Read my post again and you'd see I didn't defend Ole on whether he's done enough or give him more time etc. I was talking about our current 'standards'.
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Going by your logic what you're saying is that only one, maybe two, of Ole's eight, expensive signings totalling €300m is better than their Spurs counterpart.
Yikes, that's not great, is it? Here was me being led to believe his signings have been brilliant and improved us immensely yet supposedly they haven't even made our squad as good as bleedin' Spurs!
Honestly, yes, I can’t understand anyone having watched the last 2 years and thinking he’s done enough to warrant more time.
Someone please lock this pointless thread. United belongs to all of us, all over the globe. Those who want success and those those who are happy to be average. Those who are match going and those who are ten thousand miles away, getting up in the wee hours of the morning to watch the team on telly. Those who are on this forum and the millions who are not. We supporters starting threads as an excuse to call each other names is the last thing needed now. Feel pity for the entitlement of some who think they can teach others the "proper" way to support the club.
I can't agree that these players are getting better. Rashford and Martial could have been our modern version of Yorke and Cole. They aren't, however, because their football intelligence and skills level are at best static rather than improving year on year. They also don't give the impression that they are as motivated as they should be.
In my comments, I didn't say I have waited long enough for silver. I said that people are maybe complaining because the manager, coaches and the players have collectively and individually had enough time to produce better performances than we're now seeing as our norm. Two outstanding Champions League games don't erase our goals for performance at OT this season, for example.
I firmly believe that you get nothing in life without working hard for it and today's team as a unit isn't working as hard for success as some of its predecessors did.
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What logic? I only compare the players at the same position in the two squads. One by one.
And your logic is valid only if by the moment Ole came in Spurs had a squad with similar quality to ours. Do I need to tell you Spurs was a CL finalist in 2019? And we were a mess when Ole came in?
I could get more behind him if he was willing to be flexible with the two holding mids in certain games and also acknowledged that he needs better than Carrick & McKenna on the sidelines
But we finished higher than Spurs in the league in 2019.
I think it's pretty damning of the money spent by Ole if big money signings like VDB, Maguire, AWB aren't good enough to get into Spurs team, quite frankly.
Anyone think the board hasn't hung him out to dry?
Don't think Ole is the right man but they've given him the tallest of mountains to climb. The reality is I don't think it matters who is the manager. We're bottlenecked by our owners, it could only be really overcome by the greatest of all time.
Don't think Ole is the right man but they've given him the tallest of mountains to climb. The reality is I don't think it matters who is the manager. We're bottlenecked by our owners, it could only be really overcome by the greatest of all time.
Do we really need to look into details of how was our squad and Spurs squad by Dec 2018? And ours and their position by then?
Once the transfer window closes, alot of fans forget about the board.
It is obvious the board has left Ole out to dry, like they have with most managers after backing them in 1 window.
People say performances are Ole's fault, to some degree yes but when you dont give the manager the players he wants, is there a point of having him as manager?
Just watch our three first games, and then you get why we had to mix it up. We will get there when are back in balance. The Ole out hysteria certainly didn’t watch Real, Barca, Bayern or City play this weekend. It all the same, and we are just getting started. We needed to find that balance. See where we go from there
also, people think it’s the two holders and the gap between our central mids that is the problem. Watch the games again, and see how little movement we have in the team. Might be a lot of reasons to why. My guess it’s about match fitness and lack of rhythm
Ummm, yes? A manager's job isn't just to buy players and put them on the pitch. No manager on Earth gets all the players he wants. None. Klopp didn't, Guardiola didn't, Sir Alex didn't.
Fantastic. It would be nice to be able to hold the opposite view without all of this deluded, blind faith, top red bollocks being thrown around though, wouldn't it?
No manager gets the players they want yes but they do get the positions they need filled.
Klopp came in got backed and then said I need GK and DM - they got Fabinho and Alisson
Guardiola said I want a defenders - he got them
Ole wanted a CB and RW going into the summer, he got ST and CAM.
I didn't say he didnt get Sancho, well the club should have had alternatives in mind.
Or “Waited long enough” being 2 years into his managerial career with us.
This place is a cesspool for reasoned debate.
I am yet to see any forum member say OgS should be sacked for these 8 games alone. In fact it only being 8 games into this season is utilised as a defence more often.
50 years from Sir Matt and SAF is not a blip.
With RW I think what happened was that Ole wanted Sancho and wanted us to keep trying for him. It's why we got all that Dembele loan disaster on the last days. For CB I'm fine we didn't get a CB. I don't know who we would have gotten that would have a major impact on our defender without spending a big amount
With CB, I understand why we didnt get one because of covid and no one available. But the RW is criminal.
I understand Ole might have said keep trying but surely as a CEO you would say... no chance, we have tried everything, 2 weeks to go, we could get X Y Z on loan.
Why wait till the last day? Its all a mess really it is clearly obvious we majorly lack a RW
The sloppiness in the transfer window was embarrassing and unforgivable. Sometimes we don't back the manager when needed and sometimes we give the managers too much freedom. Spending 80m on Maguire because Leceister didn't budge but he's the manager's number 1 target. And if Ole wanted us to keep trying for Sancho when it was obvious both clubs were not going to agree then you tell the manager to move on to other targets. This club is badly in need of a good DoF
Not entirely true, is it? Up to the Burnley game last year, through a shit period and injuries, people was pretty vocal on wanting him out.
After we finished third, most people said he deserved this season. So yes, it is after 8 games.
And to even pretend to comprehend how difficult it is right now with how we are are living is just silly. We either pick up, and keep going. Or fall further and Ole will be replaced. We do the circle again. With the same moaning and lack of patience getting the small pieces together.
There isn't a lot between these players (bar Kane who is phenominal). Son is red hot form but last season Rashford showed how good he can be when cutting in from the left too. Rashford and Martial both accumulated 20 odd goals between them and Greenwood had what, 14 in the league or something like that? One of the good points about Ole is that he actually raised Martial and Rashford's level last season but is failing in other departments.
Evidently, you suffer from recency bias this season. If you go back further and compare say Rashford and Son over the past 18 months to 2 years, you'll find there isn't much between them at all.
You've also ignored Bruno (in this segment of the post at least), who is one of the most productive players in the league let alone relative to a Sprus player.
Revisit the transfer news thread, we had both on the shortlist and Regulon was 1st, that doesn't mean that he was materially better as an option than Telles. If we thought he was, we'd have swallowed the buyback option and just brought him to OT. What sort of an odd reason is this to try and water down Telles as a transfer?
VDB is a very good player. If you think that's all he does then you probably need to watch him more. There's a reason Real wanted him, and that the mighty Spurs went in for him too. If he was so average I'd wonder why Spurs with all the might in their squad (supposedly according to you) would actually go and move for him.
this isn't even worth a rebuttle. It's just daft on many levels.You literally said "TBH it's not on him" which reads like you're absolving him of blame. Anyway, our "current standards" is capable of performing materially better in points compared to last season. He has little excuses to that end.
Just few months ago people were saying we have comfortably the 3rd best team in the league, now people are saying even Spurs have better squad than us ?
So are we setting the tone now that when we inevitably finish top 4 ahead of Spurs and Chelsea it'll be an achievement because apparently our squad isn't as good as them.
So are we setting the tone now that when we inevitably finish top 4 ahead of Spurs and Chelsea it'll be an achievement because apparently our squad isn't as good as them.
Imo this started to get pointless and off topic af. How about go to the football forum and create a new thread there to discuss whether we have a better squad than Spurs? That way we'd have some neutral opinions from other teams' fans on this as well.There isn't a lot between these players (bar Kane who is phenominal). Son is red hot form but last season Rashford showed how good he can be when cutting in from the left too. Rashford and Martial both accumulated 20 odd goals between them and Greenwood had what, 14 in the league or something like that? One of the good points about Ole is that he actually raised Martial and Rashford's level last season but is failing in other departments.
Evidently, you suffer from recency bias this season. If you go back further and compare say Rashford and Son over the past 18 months to 2 years, you'll find there isn't much between them at all.
You've also ignored Bruno (in this segment of the post at least), who is one of the most productive players in the league let alone relative to a Sprus player.
Revisit the transfer news thread, we had both on the shortlist and Regulon was 1st, that doesn't mean that he was materially better as an option than Telles. If we thought he was, we'd have swallowed the buyback option and just brought him to OT. What sort of an odd reason is this to try and water down Telles as a transfer?
VDB is a very good player. If you think that's all he does then you probably need to watch him more. There's a reason Real wanted him, and that the mighty Spurs went in for him too. If he was so average I'd wonder why Spurs with all the might in their squad (supposedly according to you) would actually go and move for him.
You literally said "TBH it's not on him" which reads like you're absolving him of blame. Anyway, our "current standards" is capable of performing materially better in points compared to last season. He has little excuses to that end.
And again, I defended Ole on whether it's him who make us fans accept that we could no longer compete for top silverwares. I didn't say anything about points, or compared to last season. You seem to have a serious issue reading my post I think.
Don’t be silly. They both have invested and are more balanced on paper. We really have not signed a single first team player. But we are pretty on par all teams. Jumping to conclusions at this stage either way is pointless.
Spurs have better attack than us but we definitely have better midfield and defense overall. They have Winks and Sissoko playing many games ffs.
And we're on bar with Chelsea in terms of squad, not worse than them at all either.
The current squad is probably our best and most balanced since Fergie retired and while yes I'll say Ole did a pretty fine job forming the current squad with some good buys and selling, continuously saying other teams are better than us here just set the tone : If we don't get top 4 it's no problem squad isn't good enough and if we get it, it's an achievement. Neither are true.
The current squad can easily finish top 4 ahead of Chelsea and Spurs no problem. Even City are having a shit start of the season and looks like they're approaching the end of their cycle with Pep. They're no longer an unbeatable team.
Well here is what you said:
And if you actually took a moment to take your own advice on reading, you can feast your eyes on the opening part of the sentence in bold
Everything posted thereafter was you having an issue with me claiming the manager has a talented squad to work with, capable to build on materially better points than last season.
Also I don't actually think we had a bad summer. Woodward got some good players in, and I don't mind waiting for the right player at right wing - can't think of big targets last summer outside of Sancho worthy of a United shirt in any case.
I just don't think threads like these make much sense... the implication is that 'getting behind your manager' and 'supporting the club' are one in the same, but in reality it's nowhere near that binary.
I've been and largely remain pretty neutral in the Ole debate, but I've near enough gotten to the stage now where I think he's taken us as far as he can and a better manager would get more out of the squad that we have. Ultimately I'm seeing clubs like Southampton, who've spent an order of magnitude less than us over the last decade, looking significantly better and more cohesive than us more times than not. With that in mind, I think Ole should be replaced, with the clubs best interests in mind.
It's quite possible to acknowledge that Ole's done a lot of good and that he may have also taken us as far as he can, which part of that means I support the club any less that anyone else?
I've been and largely remain pretty neutral in the Ole debate, but I've near enough gotten to the stage now where I think he's taken us as far as he can and a better manager would get more out of the squad that we have. Ultimately I'm seeing clubs like Southampton, who've spent an order of magnitude less than us over the last decade, looking significantly better and more cohesive than us more times than not. With that in mind, I think Ole should be replaced, with the clubs best interests in mind.
It's quite possible to acknowledge that Ole's done a lot of good and that he may have also taken us as far as he can, which part of that means I support the club any less that anyone else?
Not in my view. This is all getting a bit ridiculous now, and ultimately it doesn't really matter.
Even as someone who backs Ole I do concede that it would be tough for him to keep his job without a top 4 finish, unless we went out and won the CL or reached the final. Even then maybe not.
The issue is, I like this forum. Its still better than all of the others, but theres no doubt that its worse than its ever been. This never ending civil war, and are you ole in or out bullshit, after every single game. Coming on here after a game has been a constant for many of us for many years now. You shouldn't need a crash helmet and padding on before you log in.
It really doesn't look like Ole is going to be sacked anytime soon, so surely its best for everyone to just enjoy the highs and lows that this season will bring and support the team.
But that’s what it boils down to doesn’t it? A mixture of knee jerk, Poch infatuation, and vague comments around patterns of play. We finished 3rd last season, 3rd.
We strengthened in the summer and should be kicking on this season, but we haven’t so far. We need to do better. But again, we’re 8 games in.
You simply conveniently forgot the post below.
Where I asked you if you think Ole can challenge Liverpool or City with the current squad. Because we're discussing about the club's ambition. Top 4 or titles.
Then suddenly you came up with the points and compared to last season stuffs. What does this have to do with our previous conversation?
And you still didn't answer my suggestion about the squads thread. Do we need one in the football forum?
I think it is true that Woodward has ditched Ole in the transfer window, which has contributed to Ole not able to have a squad (first XI plus bench) of similar quality. I don't think Ole has enough wiggle room there.
At the same time it is also true that our team is capable of much more than what we show currently and better managers would have had us playing much better than our levels now.
It is too early to compare with Spurs. Yes, Jose is making it all work with the talent at his disposal, but it could all go tits up with injuries/suspensions to key players. So we would need to keep an eye on how that goes.
I wouldn't be surprised if Spurs do well though. At least for me, Jose is an effective manager and is capable to find practically working solutions to whatever shortcomings the team has.
Having said that, I am not really for throwing Ole out immediately. Especially if the whole idea is to get Poch. I think Poch is not someone who would be able to survive the dilly-dallying our board does in multiple transfer windows.
At the same time it is also true that our team is capable of much more than what we show currently and better managers would have had us playing much better than our levels now.
It is too early to compare with Spurs. Yes, Jose is making it all work with the talent at his disposal, but it could all go tits up with injuries/suspensions to key players. So we would need to keep an eye on how that goes.
I wouldn't be surprised if Spurs do well though. At least for me, Jose is an effective manager and is capable to find practically working solutions to whatever shortcomings the team has.
Having said that, I am not really for throwing Ole out immediately. Especially if the whole idea is to get Poch. I think Poch is not someone who would be able to survive the dilly-dallying our board does in multiple transfer windows.
You are comparing us to Spurs (not MCFC or LFC).
By your reasoning, our squad is absolutely crap, needs to be scrapped in its entirety and rebuilt from scratch.
Remember, our coaching is garbage - players generally decline in skill/ability, so things will only get worse.
And as for the OP, you are basically saying support what the club do, no matter what they do and how badly they perform.
We have Woodward who is terrible as a DOF and isn't particularly good at getting sponsors either.
Then we have Matt Judge who negotiates wages and contracts - absolutely terrible. We have one of the highest wage bills in the World and as Strelok pointed out, our players aren't particularly good.
Then we have a manger who if fired today, would be unable to find a job in any of the top leagues in Europe. No team, including that which is bottom of the league would swap Ole for their current manager.
Then we have the sports doctors - who allow players to get out of shape and lose fitness. When those players who got out of shape leave us, they seem to get back in shape.
Then we have the coaching - when watching our team there are times when you wonder if coaching is actually taking place. Being unable to string a few passes together.
Then the players....and so on.